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Technical Discussion => Engine => Topic started by: Toybrota on Sep 18, 2017, 08:06:03 PM

Title: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 18, 2017, 08:06:03 PM
Hello Everyone, today is a big day for me! I just picked up a motor that I plan on rebuilding and putting in my 85 xtracab.

I paid $200 for a Block, crank, head, cam.... Everything including the timing cover. I didn't know until I got there that it was an early style 22R hinted at by the dual row chain and early style valve cover.

My truck being an 85 is the later style, so I know that some stuff will not work. Namely, the exhaust manifold. Not a problem considering I am getting a header.

But the intake should be the same... right? I hope so.

My plans for this is just a reliable daily, nothing more. I want a mild cam, something for more torque at lower RPM's.
It is a dual row, which we all know is really good.

As far as I know, the block hasn't been bored, the guy said he bought it from a woman who's husband died, so I have no info mileage wise.
The cylinder walls look really good, so I am real excited to get this going, a winter project.

So the intake should fit right? I am gonna buy the LCE master rebuild kit which seems really good, of course I gotta do the machine work, which is the most expensive, I plan to pay about 1500 for the machine work.
Finally feeling like a real forum member! Feel free to chime in, I gotta unload this tomorrow, by myself, thank god these things are light!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 18, 2017, 08:08:33 PM
Here's some pictures. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170919/f8be751c227d6259a06b9d3c79ac38ac.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170919/dea15b53ba010d6b61adbfd48adb2b69.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170919/61e4542fe9d43e198f141f020af5000f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170919/efc5c33cca0006b0e634e26362154a0d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170919/c7787f8a41e4e7897f602442c00d9f3a.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Congill77 on Sep 18, 2017, 08:29:51 PM
Looks good bro


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 18, 2017, 08:34:44 PM
Here is the parts list right now:

Cam http://www.lceperformance.com/Pro-Torquer-Camshaft-20R-22R-RE-RET-p/1022024.htm

Rebuild kit http://www.lceperformance.com/Premium-Master-Rebuild-Kit-22R-RE-1982-1984-p/1010004.htm

header http://www.lceperformance.com/Street-Header-Kit-4wd-Direct-Fit-22R-RE-1982-1984-p/1041037.htm
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 18, 2017, 10:01:21 PM
Upon further research, I think I'm gonna go with engnbldr, prices seem a little better and I've heard many good things.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 19, 2017, 07:15:54 AM
I think your intake will fit just fine.  Let me know if it doesn't I will send you an older style one.

Good score on the early block.  The most important question I think we all have is what color will you be painting the block?  Color is very important to tuning you know ;).
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 19, 2017, 12:55:07 PM
I think your intake will fit just fine.  Let me know if it doesn't I will send you an older style one.

Good score on the early block.  The most important question I think we all have is what color will you be painting the block?  Color is very important to tuning you know ;).
Ha exactly! Color is important. I think I'm gonna go for a black, and I'm gonna accent in red the serial numbers and old Toyota logo. Might even engrave the date and my name in it, who knows.

As for the intake, I'll let you know, as far as I know the intakes are the same, it's just the stock intake. I might have to get block off plates for some stuff but that's fine by me.

I went and cleaned the block today, wire wheeled the outside and degreased everything so now it's sitting in my kitchen. Gotta love that non married life.

Not only are the Pistons and rods the factory stock ones, the timing cover, and oil pump are too. Some of of the main bearings are worn, but I fully anticipate a full machining of everything on this block and head. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170919/3fb6cc1a5870f6a4544ab6068f4fdb9e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170919/4d264a6535901a4b6ecdc4add8bdd8f3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170919/8ae6d1bc991638184eb3bd9532e2d1fe.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: THK Matt on Sep 19, 2017, 01:54:08 PM
engnbldr for the win!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 19, 2017, 03:05:33 PM
Get your rods done it's totally worth it.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Sep 19, 2017, 05:14:08 PM
Have a decent machine shop balance the rotating assembly. It makes a difference in the longevity of the engine life. Also you can twist it up without worry.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 19, 2017, 10:23:24 PM
I wanna get the whole motor checked over by a machine shop when I build it, so I'll have them check the crank too and have them balance it.

I am thinking about LCE's H beam rods, they are only $300, and good for 600HP. Seems overkill, but they are stronger and that means more durable. Overkill for a stock motor?

Not sure what shop to go with here in SLC, anyone have any idea on prices? I was thinking about $1500

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 20, 2017, 07:41:00 AM
Yes the stock rods are plenty strong.  Lighter weight rods wouldn't hurt anything though so if you have the $$ and you want them...

I typically spend about $160 on a block (tanked, checked, decked and bored), about $200 on a head (valves, repair or replace seats, springs, repair or replace guides, milled flat), A crank (turned down and balanced) is usually around $120.

So I'm thinking about $500 for your machine work should be plenty.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 20, 2017, 09:09:08 AM
Yes the stock rods are plenty strong.  Lighter weight rods wouldn't hurt anything though so if you have the $$ and you want them...

I typically spend about $160 on a block (tanked, checked, decked and bored), about $200 on a head (valves, repair or replace seats, springs, repair or replace guides, milled flat), A crank (turned down and balanced) is usually around $120.

So I'm thinking about $500 for your machine work should be plenty.
Wow, I hope I can get it for that much. That is a really great price. The head looks good, obviously eyes aren't a pressure test, but everything looks decent so it shouldn't be to much. Thanks for all the advice, I'll have to call around today. Luckily for me, I work for a Toyota dealer so some stuff I'll get a discount on, possibly carries over to a machine shop I don't know.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 20, 2017, 09:20:08 AM
Got off the phone with a shop here, and I was quoted about $1000

That would include
-cleaning
-head job
-bore and deck
-crank cut
-rods done
-crank and flywheel balanced

And that's it, pretty good I think.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: THK Matt on Sep 20, 2017, 09:33:27 AM
Got off the phone with a shop here, and I was quoted about $1000

That would include
-cleaning
-head job
-bore and deck
-crank cut
-rods done
-crank and flywheel balanced

And that's it, pretty good I think.

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if the shop has been around for decades and has a great reputation. 1000 may be a good price. if thats the only shop you called, id call around
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Sep 20, 2017, 10:54:20 AM
I don't know your area. But that is awful high for a 22r. I just had a 509 gm engine done for 750. That was 2 heads rebuilt, valve job, check block, bore .030 and cleaned all of it up. The old machine shop I use locally would be in the ball park of 250-350 on a simple 4 cylinder like a 22r.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: THK Matt on Sep 20, 2017, 11:03:06 AM
I don't know your area. But that is awful high for a 22r. I just had a 509 gm engine done for 750. That was 2 heads rebuilt, valve job, check block, bore .030 and cleaned all of it up. The old machine shop I use locally would be in the ball park of 250-350 on a simple 4 cylinder like a 22r.

at that point, a reman is a few hundred more.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 20, 2017, 01:54:15 PM
Hey Toybrota,

Pricing can vary from shop to shop and region to region. The reputation of the shop and if they have experience with alloy heads and old 22 blocks is very important.

Any high quality machine shop, speed shop, or cylinder head shop should give you a complete detailed estimate on what they recommend needs to done, including shop time - after they have fully inspected everything.

Not knowing what those services exactly include, $1,000 for all that is a very fair price, from my recent experience here in Arizona.

My local cylinder head shop will charge about $260 - depending upon the condition of head - for rebuilding a 22RE head with top quality parts and workmanship (they only do cylinder heads).  They will sell a new head, high quality manufacturer, with a stock cam for $400.  It is generally recommended that an early rebuilt 22RE head be pressure tested, but it is not necessary.

For my 1986 22RE block, my local machine shop took 2 weeks:

Strip & thermal clean block. Magnfluxed for cracks & measure bores - $160.00
Set up and checked rods as needed 
Deck block - $80.00
Bore & hone - $97.50
Polish Crankshaft - $30.00
Balance w/flywheel & pressure plate - $95.00
Final clean & check clearances, rod clearance .0016 to .0018 - Main bearing clearance .0018 to .020 -$128.70
My total was $608.28

My engbldr head with OS valve and 261C cam installed was: $548.00

Buying a remanufactured short block or long block can be very dicey. Unless someone shows me another viable source, 22RE Performance or LCE would be the only sources I would give serious consideration.

Gnarls
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Sep 20, 2017, 10:15:19 PM
Yotashop.com spins a fairly convincing tale of stock quality at prices slightly lower than LCE and 22RE performance...

Just another thing to add to the mix. I've never rebuilt an engine, but doing it oneself would probably be a good learning opportunity. And a good way to save money, too.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Sep 20, 2017, 10:23:54 PM
engnbldr kits are low low low. DNJ crap though. I like LCE because each component is from a different company with a mix of aftermarket and OEM. That means LCE set out to find the best part with a quality and price balance in mind. Some parts apparently should be substituted, for example a lot of guys will only run the OEM head gasket.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 21, 2017, 04:58:41 AM
engnbldr kits are low low low. DNJ crap though. I like LCE because each component is from a different company with a mix of aftermarket and OEM. That means LCE set out to find the best part with a quality and price balance in mind. Some parts apparently should be substituted, for example a lot of guys will only run the OEM head gasket.

300k,

What experience do you have with DNJ parts, and why do you believe they are "crap"?

I'm curious.  One of the very top and highly respected aftermarket suppliers here in AZ uses and recommends DNJ parts manufactured for Toyotas.  engbldr is a highly respected aftermarket supplier, they use and recommend DNJ parts.

Do you know something they do not know?

How many conversations have you had with John at LCE or Tod and Ted at engbldr, or Jim or Jerry at 22RE Performance?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Sep 21, 2017, 05:05:56 AM
at that point, a reman is a few hundred more.

I guess I didn't word it properly. I meant all the machine work would be in that range. Personally, If I do not know the history of the shop that produced the "remanufactured" engine I would be hard pressed to buy one. I have heard many bad things regarding lack of quality when it comes to those ebay and other cheap engines.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 21, 2017, 07:23:46 AM
Man I have been getting a good deal up here.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 21, 2017, 09:26:44 AM
Man I have been getting a good deal up here.

We need good deal makers... like Trump.... have you thought about running for "office"?? LOL..

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 21, 2017, 09:40:53 AM
We need good deal makers... like Trump.... have you thought about running for "office"?? LOL..

Gnarls.

No I would be assassinated in the first few months of office.  I figure I can do more damage living off grid and shaming people about going into debt.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Sep 21, 2017, 06:56:57 PM
Too bad there isn't a double and triple like button ...
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 21, 2017, 07:30:36 PM
No I would be assassinated in the first few months of office.  I figure I can do more damage living off grid and shaming people about going into debt.

Are you solar energized?

Geezz.... I've been shamed and shameless several times... I'm not sure which condition was more exciting?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 21, 2017, 10:30:09 PM
Thanks everyone for all the replies, sorry for not being able to respond to everyone one by one.

The shop I called has been around for awhile, the guy on the phone said they use to do tons of 22R's back in the day, which means they know these things. Which is always good.

I forgot to add, but they would also balance the flywheel too, which is a huge plus. It's a lot of machine work, but I'm taking everything as if it needs to be done, the block might not need as much work as I think, there's stuff you just can't see with the human eye.

It'll be awhile before I get the block and everything else in, I think I'll take the block first followed by the head and then I'll take the rest of the stuff later.

I'll call other places and see too, I'll talk to some of the master techs where I work and see what they recommend.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 23, 2017, 04:55:25 AM
Thanks everyone for all the replies, sorry for not being able to respond to everyone one by one.

The shop I called has been around for awhile, the guy on the phone said they use to do tons of 22R's back in the day, which means they know these things. Which is always good.

I forgot to add, but they would also balance the flywheel too, which is a huge plus. It's a lot of machine work, but I'm taking everything as if it needs to be done, the block might not need as much work as I think, there's stuff you just can't see with the human eye.

It'll be awhile before I get the block and everything else in, I think I'll take the block first followed by the head and then I'll take the rest of the stuff later.

I'll call other places and see too, I'll talk to some of the master techs where I work and see what they recommend.

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Hey Toybrota,

Just to add a couple thoughts...

If you have them balance the flywheel you might ask them to balance the pressure plate with it, that was the recommendation by my machine shop.  A very reputable Toyota engine builder told me that I didn't need to balance a Toyota Factory crankshaft.

Also, if that shop has experience with 22s, they should know to machine the timing chain cover with the block if they deck it.  My shop only needed clean the top of the block deck about .006", but also machined my timing cover to match.

My machine shop recommended a .020" overbore.  One very reputable Toy engine builder did not recommend an overbore anymore than necessary.  However, if could go back, I'd seriously consider doing a .060" overbore to get a little more displacement - I believe 79coyotefrg built a .060" over.  I realize that it may make the block non- rebuildable again, but I don't plan on rebuilding it again, and I realize the cost for .060" pistons is more money.  As I mentioned before, if I could go back, I'd rebuild my 22RE and convert it to a 22R - carb... then ask H8PVMNT if he would work his magic on a supertune!

But if I could go back, I'd seriously consider a Chevy 4.3 Vortec... then while doing that mental exercise, I'd probably end up swapping in a V-8!!... I always wanted a V-8 in my Toy trucks.  That swap is not completely out of the realm of possibility in the future.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 23, 2017, 02:18:56 PM
Hey Toybrota,

Just to add a couple thoughts...

If you have them balance the flywheel you might ask them to balance the pressure plate with it, that was the recommendation by my machine shop.  A very reputable Toyota engine builder told me that I didn't need to balance a Toyota Factory crankshaft.

Also, if that shop has experience with 22s, they should know to machine the timing chain cover with the block if they deck it.  My shop only needed clean the top of the block deck about .006", but also machined my timing cover to match.

My machine shop recommended a .020" overbore.  One very reputable Toy engine builder did not recommend an overbore anymore than necessary.  However, if could go back, I'd seriously consider doing a .060" overbore to get a little more displacement - I believe 79coyotefrg built a .060" over.  I realize that it may make the block non- rebuildable again, but I don't plan on rebuilding it again, and I realize the cost for .060" pistons is more money.  As I mentioned before, if I could go back, I'd rebuild my 22RE and convert it to a 22R - carb... then ask H8PVMNT if he would work his magic on a supertune!

But if I could go back, I'd seriously consider a Chevy 4.3 Vortec... then while doing that mental exercise, I'd probably end up swapping in a V-8!!... I always wanted a V-8 in my Toy trucks.  That swap is not completely out of the realm of possibility in the future.

Gnarls.
Yeah I'm planning to bolt the cover on and have them deck it with the timing cover on, that way it's perfectly flat! Well, hopefully.

Maybe this means they will clean the timing cover too, I am paying for them to clean everything so that's included in the price too.

I'm really excited to paint the block, I want it to look nice, plus with all the other shiny stuff. It'll be perfect. Depending on how much the head and block get machined, I'll get a Toyota head gasket. Because I've heard Superior things about them. Nothing in this build is gonna be from AutoZone.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Sep 23, 2017, 03:29:46 PM
Depending on how much the head and block get machined, I'll get a Toyota head gasket. Because I've heard Superior things about them. Nothing in this build is gonna be from AutoZone.

I like the sound of that. If you want an AutoZone pickup, fix it with AutoZone parts. If you want a Toyota pickup...

That said, there are some (non AutoZone) aftermarket suppliers that I like. But I try to get OEM or better for really crucial stuff like fuel pumps, alternators, head gaskets, etc. I am anxious to see your engine when it's all done and shiny!



Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 24, 2017, 05:29:29 AM
Yeah I'm planning to bolt the cover on and have them deck it with the timing cover on, that way it's perfectly flat! Well, hopefully.

Maybe this means they will clean the timing cover too, I am paying for them to clean everything so that's included in the price too.

I'm really excited to paint the block, I want it to look nice, plus with all the other shiny stuff. It'll be perfect. Depending on how much the head and block get machined, I'll get a Toyota head gasket. Because I've heard Superior things about them. Nothing in this build is gonna be from AutoZone.

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The head gasket discussion on forums is deep and wide – and always very controversial.

The Toyota factory gasket has been a popular choice.  The factory gasket has been designed for factory installed heads.  The Toyota factory head gaskets designed and manufactured in 1980’s may or may not be as good and as advanced technologically as the current ones from Fel-Pro or Cometic, for example.

In the rebuild scenario, there will be differences in the metal, flatness specs, Ra surfacing, and torque specs, and may be completely different from the Toyota factory installed heads.

From the Toyota engine builders I’ve had conversations with about head gaskets, most failures is NOT due to the head gasket, it’s the lack of proper machining of the head and block and improper installation.  It’s real easy to blame the head gasket, I mean who wants to admit they don’t know what they are doing and fubar’d their engine rebuild.

There are some factors that should be considered when selecting specific head gasket.  And since the 20/22s are notorious for head and head gasket failures, understanding the machining requirements, head gasket selection, and torque specs should be a high priority when rebuilding an engine.

The recommended Ra surface roughness spec is generally different for different gaskets types and different for alloy heads to cast iron blocks.  The use of coatings or sealer is also controversial, but “clean and dry” seems to be the recommended by the most head gasket manufacturers.     

Torque specs and thicknesses should also be considered based upon the finished machining and deck heights.

Toyota engine builders like 22RE Performance, LCE, or engbldr will provide their recommendation – and why.  To get other expert opinions, contacting the technical people at Fel-Pro or Cometic should give you other technical perspectives, insight, and recommendations.

On engine block paint.  I painted mine black, and wish I had painted it a light color.. light gray or light blue.  The lighter color will allow me to see any leaks and see the attached parts way better, and also keeping it cleaner when degreasing and washing the engine and engine bay.

Gnarls… just adding my pomp n’ stink.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 24, 2017, 10:01:26 AM
The head gasket discussion on forums is deep and wide – and always very controversial.

The Toyota factory gasket has been a popular choice.  The factory gasket has been designed for factory installed heads.  The Toyota factory head gaskets designed and manufactured in 1980’s may or may not be as good and as advanced technologically as the current ones from Fel-Pro or Cometic, for example.

In the rebuild scenario, there will be differences in the metal, flatness specs, Ra surfacing, and torque specs, and may be completely different from the Toyota factory installed heads.

From the Toyota engine builders I’ve had conversations with about head gaskets, most failures is NOT due to the head gasket, it’s the lack of proper machining of the head and block and improper installation.  It’s real easy to blame the head gasket, I mean who wants to admit they don’t know what they are doing and fubar’d their engine rebuild.

There are some factors that should be considered when selecting specific head gasket.  And since the 20/22s are notorious for head and head gasket failures, understanding the machining requirements, head gasket selection, and torque specs should be a high priority when rebuilding an engine.

The recommended Ra surface roughness spec is generally different for different gaskets types and different for alloy heads to cast iron blocks.  The use of coatings or sealer is also controversial, but “clean and dry” seems to be the recommended by the most head gasket manufacturers.   

Torque specs and thicknesses should also be considered based upon the finished machining and deck heights.

Toyota engine builders like 22RE Performance, LCE, or engbldr will provide their recommendation – and why.  To get other expert opinions, contacting the technical people at Fel-Pro or Cometic should give you other technical perspectives, insight, and recommendations.

On engine block paint.  I painted mine black, and wish I had painted it a light color.. light gray or light blue.  The lighter color will allow me to see any leaks and see the attached parts way better, and also keeping it cleaner when degreasing and washing the engine and engine bay.

Gnarls… just adding my pomp n’ stink.
Thanks for the advice, the head gasket is one of the many debated things about engines, not just the 22R. I'll make my final decision on which head gasket I'll use when I get the machine work done, I'm 99% sure this motor hasn't been touched so that hopefully includes the head. If it has to be shaved a lot then I'll get a thicker head gasket.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Sep 25, 2017, 07:15:13 PM
:popcorn:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Sep 25, 2017, 08:19:22 PM
It took me a while to read it all so I will offer my experience on the 22R. especially the early block.

1.  early 22R rods are bullet proof and have stood up to superchargers.  they will fit in a 350 chevy with minor  machine work and around here are banned in a dirt track car because when those stock chevy rods are coming apart those 22 rods are still there.    have them "done" by this I mean the ends over years and years will become slightly oval.  Your machine shop will remove the studs, machine off some of the rod material and then re bore them to the correct size making them perfectly round again.   I would also balance them as a set find the lightest of the four and make the other three the exact same weight.

2.  the cam you had posted from LC engineering was the perfect cam.  GET IT.    get the rest of your parts from machine shop.  Except the header, get it from LCE.

3.  ask the machine shop you use if they can order the parts (trust me they can) and usually at a significant cost savings to you.  all bearings and rings and pistons if they are needed and if its being bored you will.
ALSO   dont deck that block more than is needed to remove scratches.  no more.

4.   Engnbldr  is a great place to get parts for these engines.  DO NOT get the cam there.   they are much cheaper than LCE but you get what you pay for in this department (the cam department)

5.   the intake manifold will bolt right up.  I see no problems at all but gasket match just to be sure.

6.  Head gasket.  I will only put Multi Layer Steel or MLS,  usually D&J Rock brand, head gaskets on 22R's I build,   felpro never holds on the engines.


my 79 with full body armor weighs 4500 lbs ,  bored .060 over (I wouldnt advise that) Stage 2 race cam, .460 lift LCE,  header, 32/36 weber and a driver with a heavy foot :driving:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 25, 2017, 08:44:06 PM
....l so I will offer my experience on the 22R. especially the early block.

....  bored .060 over (I wouldnt advise that) ....



Hey 79coyotefrg ,

First it's really nice to read your posts again!!

Just curious, why would you NOT recommend a 60 over bore on 22?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 26, 2017, 04:24:01 AM

It took me a while to read it all so I will offer my experience on the 22R. especially the early block.

2.  the cam you had posted from LC engineering was the perfect cam.  GET IT.    get the rest of your parts from machine shop.  Except the header, get it from LCE.


Hey Glen,

Why do you like LCE's Pro Torquer camshaft for 22R, and what other camshafts have you compared it to?

Why do you like LCE's header, and what other headers have you compared it to?  What diameter exhaust do you prefer with a header?

Are the over sized valves worth the extra $$$?

With a 22R with the LCE Pro Torquer cam and LCE header, what carb and intake combo do recommend?

What compression numbers, ratio do you see in your 22s?  What octane fuel are you running?

Just curious.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 26, 2017, 12:50:16 PM
We listen to Glen.  Because of fast...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Sep 27, 2017, 12:12:24 AM
I only went .060 over because I dropped a valve at 7000 rpm and thats how far the machine shop had to go to clean it up.  Without a V6 radiator it ran hot but the v6 radiator wouldnt fit in my first gen if I didnt already have a 2 inch body lift.   The radiator I have anyway goes from the bottom of my frame to about an inch above the stock radiator. I had to bend the core support lip up to clear it.
I can go to a .080 over piston BUT they are $100 EACH and LC is the only place I could find with that size.

Hey Glen,

Why do you like LCE's Pro Torquer camshaft for 22R, and what other camshafts have you compared it to?
That is a good cam with plenty of duration.  .440 intake and 450 exhaust I think,  Keep in mind these 22R's are basically a tractor engine.  They do NOT need help making torque at all but they need to breath.
My cam is the Stage 2 racing cam with .460 lift and 290* duration and in a hard pull up a long hill on the interstate  I have had people tell me I was shooting a three foot flame out my tail pipe just before shifting.  so standing on the go pedal at 4000 rpm (where I almost always shift) with a load I shoot a flame out like a dang race car :disturbed:

Quote
Why do you like LCE's header, and what other headers have you compared it to?  What diameter exhaust do you prefer with a header?
they are tough, open and the exact same inside diameter as the exhaust ports on the early 20R and 22R heads.  36mm, or 1 3/8 inch

Quote
Are the over sized valves worth the extra $$$?
  not really if you dont run a cam like mine but if getting one from Engnbldr as a new head with big valves, hell I would.   but for a rebuild just a good 3 angle valve grind and matching is all is needed

Quote
With a 22R with the LCE Pro Torquer cam and LCE header, what carb and intake combo do recommend?
   In an ideal world i'd run a 20R head and stock 20R intake with a weber 3236 BUT    if you have a 22R a good well tuned 22R carb is fine if you get a cam that will open its valves to allow a full charge.  the 3236 and the stock 22R carb have almost the same cfm,  325 for the 22R and 326 for the weber.

Quote
What compression numbers, ratio do you see in your 22s?  What octane fuel are you running?

Just curious.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
I run 87 octane PURE gas ie NO ethanol content at ALL.  if you cant find pure gas get 90 or higher.  many places have ethanol in the lower grade but will have NO ethanol in their top grade.  if you cant find it go to a Marina or bait shop if one is close by.    I get 11 miles per gallon if I have to buy 10% ethanol and get 17 on pure gas. (ok, got, its all in pieces in the shop at the moment)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Sep 27, 2017, 12:20:52 AM
compression ,  9.7 with my current setup

I did heavy research into cams and carbs when I rebuilt my original 20R some 20 years ago.  I wanted a large boost in power from my stock 20R and when talking to Carl at LCEngineering and told him what I wanted to do with my truck he sent me specs on the 440 cam and my current cam and a 475, 300* duration cam and chose my 460 cam.   He suggested a 3236 carb and I already had a Downey header.   The guy at Downey said "you cant redesign a 30 year old motor by changing cams"  NWOR had shitty service so I chose LC and never looked back.  except to see the others shrinking in my rear view mirror.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Sep 27, 2017, 01:09:57 AM
We listen to Glen.  Because of fast...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck

remember thats with 35x12.50x15's that weigh 106 pounds each,  a total weight of 4500 pounds
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: THK Matt on Sep 27, 2017, 11:00:47 AM
Glen for the win! :popcorn:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 28, 2017, 11:52:31 AM
Thanks everyone for the responses, sorry I haven't been able to get back to each of you but please know that I definitely read every post!
My plans for the build are constantly changing, but hearing about the rods makes me happy, I'll just re-use them.

From what you said, the early 22R rods are stronger than the later 22R rods? Makes sense to me.

Still working a lot to save money for this build, I work 12 hour days and most days I have no energy to do anything truck related... At least I've got the money though!

The LCE cam is Definitely my want. Same with the header. I'll talk to the machine shop and see what they recommend parts wise.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 28, 2017, 12:03:05 PM
It took me a while to read it all so I will offer my experience on the 22R. especially the early block.

1.  early 22R rods are bullet proof and have stood up to superchargers.  they will fit in a 350 chevy with minor  machine work and around here are banned in a dirt track car because when those stock chevy rods are coming apart those 22 rods are still there.    have them "done" by this I mean the ends over years and years will become slightly oval.  Your machine shop will remove the studs, machine off some of the rod material and then re bore them to the correct size making them perfectly round again.   I would also balance them as a set find the lightest of the four and make the other three the exact same weight.

2.  the cam you had posted from LC engineering was the perfect cam.  GET IT.    get the rest of your parts from machine shop.  Except the header, get it from LCE.

3.  ask the machine shop you use if they can order the parts (trust me they can) and usually at a significant cost savings to you.  all bearings and rings and pistons if they are needed and if its being bored you will.
ALSO   dont deck that block more than is needed to remove scratches.  no more.

4.   Engnbldr  is a great place to get parts for these engines.  DO NOT get the cam there.   they are much cheaper than LCE but you get what you pay for in this department (the cam department)

5.   the intake manifold will bolt right up.  I see no problems at all but gasket match just to be sure.

6.  Head gasket.  I will only put Multi Layer Steel or MLS,  usually D&J Rock brand, head gaskets on 22R's I build,   felpro never holds on the engines.


my 79 with full body armor weighs 4500 lbs ,  bored .060 over (I wouldnt advise that) Stage 2 race cam, .460 lift LCE,  header, 32/36 weber and a driver with a heavy foot :driving:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck
Thanks for the tips, if I can get a discount from them compared to LCE, I'll order the parts through them.

My main concern is quality, this needs to be a reliable motor I can easily get 250K out of, easy for a 22R. I just want good Japanese parts in it, good Pistons and bearings. Before I have them order I'll make sure they are sourced good...

I definitely don't plan on being able to rev mine to 7000K, that would be nice though.

Hopefully the block doesn't need much, everything looked great tearing it apart.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 30, 2017, 03:07:48 AM
...  The guy at Downey said "you cant redesign a 30 year old motor by changing cams" 


THAT is an idiotic statement.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 10, 2017, 01:58:18 PM
Good news! Taking the block tomorrow to get its work done.

I was quoted $60 for the deck, and $90 for the bore. Looks like I will be in and out of there with just $200.

The place is called "Crankshaft grinders" Here in salt lake city. Really excited....

However, lifting the block up stairs out of my kitchen is not something I am looking forward to.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 11, 2017, 02:54:07 PM
Block is at the shop now, should be picking it up in a week or two.

Then, I can start ordering parts.

The head will go next, a head job is only a couple hundred they said. They said $90 to cut the crank, and 30 to polish it. It looks good so maybe just a polish. We will have to see!!

Still not set on using engbldr, from what I understand he uses rockauto and to me that won't fly. I'll use LCE for most if not everything, minus the head gasket and other gaskets. Those I will get from my work.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: THK Matt on Oct 11, 2017, 03:19:00 PM
Block is at the shop now, should be picking it up in a week or two.

Then, I can start ordering parts.

The head will go next, a head job is only a couple hundred they said. They said $90 to cut the crank, and 30 to polish it. It looks good so maybe just a polish. We will have to see!!

Still not set on using engbldr, from what I understand he uses rockauto and to me that won't fly. I'll use LCE for most if not everything, minus the head gasket and other gaskets. Those I will get from my work.

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NOT rockauto.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: THK Matt on Oct 11, 2017, 03:19:48 PM
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachments/toyota-truck-4runner/1216242d1392578462-best-22r-head-gasket-img_2653.jpg
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Oct 11, 2017, 03:29:10 PM
Good news! Taking the block tomorrow to get its work done.

I was quoted $60 for the deck, and $90 for the bore. Looks like I will be in and out of there with just $200.

The place is called "Crankshaft grinders" Here in salt lake city. Really excited....

However, lifting the block up stairs out of my kitchen is not something I am looking forward to.

Getting it upstairs will be easy, getting it back down assembled, not so much :)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 11, 2017, 03:33:20 PM
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachments/toyota-truck-4runner/1216242d1392578462-best-22r-head-gasket-img_2653.jpg
Must've read it wrong then, just what my research turned up.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 11, 2017, 04:25:54 PM
Must've read it wrong then, just what my research turned up.

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Rock auto and D&JRock are different.  I use D&J headgaskets because they are multi layer steel and you can blow a hg and it will reseal most of the time when it cools back down

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 11, 2017, 04:37:46 PM
Rock auto and D&JRock are different.  I use D&J headgaskets because they are multi layer steel and you can blow a hg and it will reseal most of the time when it cools back down
I read rock auto from a couple of different threads that I searched from. People say he's really good so I will most likely just go for him with the exception of the oil pump and water pump.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 11, 2017, 06:23:21 PM
totally different
http://www.rockauto.com/

and the guys I use
http://www.enginecomponents.com/en/home

http://www.dnjecat.com/
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 11, 2017, 07:15:46 PM
https://youtu.be/chJ0B9aQqD0
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 11, 2017, 08:54:10 PM
Like I said, bad on my part for believing the internet. I obviously have a lot of more researching to do.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 16, 2017, 06:45:46 PM
Picked up an OEM Toyota Gasket kit for my 22R at work today, it was $140 (Employee discount) for everything.
Some might question why this over a Fel-Pro, well, I figure that Toyota designed the motor, so they know best.

This kit includes everything from the head gasket to the rear main seal. Not bad.
Didn't even know Toyota Still makes these kits, maybe just new old stock.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 16, 2017, 10:55:13 PM
Picked up an OEM Toyota Gasket kit for my 22R at work today, it was $140 (Employee discount) for everything.
Some might question why this over a Fel-Pro, well, I figure that Toyota designed the motor, so they know best.

This kit includes everything from the head gasket to the rear main seal. Not bad.
Didn't even know Toyota Still makes these kits, maybe just new old stock.

take a picture of their headgasket for me.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 17, 2017, 10:45:27 AM
Will do!

I am gonna use Engbldr for everything else, I trust what everyone says on here.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 18, 2017, 10:31:01 AM
Got my kit!

Includes everything. And as requested, a picture of the head gasket. Also, what is this weird white fiber gasket?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/59442a167817fd48053fa367dfd57906.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/f8368e587e7838efce0b247334cb8518.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/c8872468e35cfca79c5fbcca6ae4a7c4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/fa8dc3a1b1820f5550040e0c2a782a4a.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 18, 2017, 07:02:43 PM
Ok! Got the whole kit laid out tonight to see what I've got and make sure everything is there.

Everything I can see, except the oil pump O-ring, is here. Even a drain plug gasket!

It also has a thermostat O ring gasket, and the water neck gasket itself. Great.

Also, anyone know why there is two different EGR cross over gaskets? (Might have the name wrong)

Something I noticed first hand, is how high quality the gaskets are, they are thick for one, compared to the thin timing cover gaskets that came with my OSK timing kit last time I did a timing job.

The head gasket itself looks great, don't necessarily know if it's gonna get used, it all depends on the condition of the head (which from my observation, is good) and the block. MLS head gaskets are really good and if need be, I'll use one.

And, the old style cork gasket for the pan, which I plan to use RTV on because cork gaskets leak from my experience.

Anyways, here's some pics. Super excited to get the ball rolling!!! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/d0d561fcb0684650144c5a913c676ad3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/d27aa482a21e670f0baaa32547f51dba.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/301f4858fa402ffb0f5dbb28d2aeb061.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 19, 2017, 03:48:58 PM
Painted the valve cover today, high heat engine primer and paint. Debating doing this to the timing cover as well. Definitely painting the block the same color. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/4a9378ea35f335ef32b5d956cc302747.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 04:31:35 PM
Got the block today. They only bored it .020" over, which makes me believe even more that it's an original block never bored before this. They decked it .009", which is good!

Here's it getting some high heat engine primer before the paint.

I used the hammer technique to mask the areas off, it's so easy!! Also, the only time I will ever use a fram filter is to mask off the filter area. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171023/0f539834832b2f8466d443df45f3ba0b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171023/d93cd29defbecd45cc39144cd940b7cf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171023/e585aad8bba045fabb99096943b51a30.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: OVRAROK on Oct 23, 2017, 05:06:38 PM
 :beerchug: Looking good
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 05:37:24 PM
Looking nice and shiny! Looks like a marine diesel motor to me, the grey just gives it that look.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/c73d46b802a1caa64f98defdac756f97.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 06:08:03 PM
Finishing up with clear coat. I used high heat everything, primer, paint, and now clear gloss.

I also got some red paint on that classic yota logo, love the way it looks. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/97252ae9a78ebdb3fa16209a11c8e05f.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 06:09:05 PM
I masked everything EXCEPT both the water pipe ports on the side of the block... Is there a way to remove this paint or is it fine?

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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/6246b2d0dfcba5ee77b390f9075965c4.jpg)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 23, 2017, 06:38:13 PM
I'd just run a tap down the bolt holes.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 06:41:14 PM
I'd just run a tap down the bolt holes.
Is it fine to put gaskets on it? I plan on running one through.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 23, 2017, 06:49:30 PM
I masked everything EXCEPT both the water pipe ports on the side of the block... Is there a way to remove this paint or is it fine? ...

For the port hole...

I would NOT use a blade, scraper, or sandpaper to remove it.... don't want any of that getting into the coolant passages.

I would use lacquer thinner or MEK to soften and liquefy that paint and use a piece of cloth (t-shirt or shop rag) wrapped around the tip of phillips screwdriver, carefully pulling it out.

Before I'd run a tap through threads, I'd make sure they bottom out and NOT go through into the coolant passages.

Geezz.. great paint job... I wish I done that to my block.  That will probably last the life of your engine and withstand all the degreaser and carwash spray cleaning you can put it through.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 06:51:11 PM
I would NOT use a blade, scraper, or sandpaper to remove it.... don't want any of that getting into the coolant passages.

I would use lacquer thinner or MEK to soften and liquefy that paint and use a piece of cloth (t-shirt or shop rag) wrapped around the tip of phillips screwdriver, carefully pulling it out.

Geezz.. great paint job... I wish I done that to my block.  That will probably last the life of your engine and withstand all the degreaser and carwash spray cleaning you can put it through.

Gnarls.
Thanks, appreciate it! I've just spent the last 2 hours painting it. I just want something that's clean and looks great.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 23, 2017, 06:57:31 PM
I'd leave the paint on the flat portion where the gasket goes........
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 07:01:32 PM
I'd leave the paint on the flat portion where the gasket goes........
Thanks for the tip. Will do.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 23, 2017, 07:14:19 PM
I'd leave the paint on the flat portion where the gasket goes........

I'd probably leave the paint if its nice and smooth.  I'd use Optimum Grey on that pipe and gasket.  Be careful not to over torque those small bolts.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 07:16:12 PM
I'd probably leave the paint if its nice and smooth.  I'd use Optimum Grey on that pipe and gasket.  Be careful not to over torque those small bolts.

Gnarls.
Thanks again, I have a huge box of all the hardware, 90% still has the zinc plating on it! Super excited to drain my bank account.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: OVRAROK on Oct 23, 2017, 07:17:42 PM
Thanks, appreciate it! I've just spent the last 2 hours painting it. I just want something that's clean and looks great.

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what color is it, I painted my 22re ford grey, kinda looks like it, love the attention to detail  :thumbs:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 23, 2017, 07:20:14 PM
what color is it, I painted my 22re ford grey, kinda looks like it, love the attention to detail  :thumbs:
Exactly that color!! Ford Grey.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 24, 2017, 01:06:06 AM
Got my kit!

Includes everything. And as requested, a picture of the head gasket. Also, what is this weird white fiber gasket?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/59442a167817fd48053fa367dfd57906.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/f8368e587e7838efce0b247334cb8518.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/c8872468e35cfca79c5fbcca6ae4a7c4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/fa8dc3a1b1820f5550040e0c2a782a4a.jpg)

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I see a MLS headgasket with silicone embedded, and the white fluffy is for the stock exhaust manifold heat riser thing thats always tossed when you get that header from LCE
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 24, 2017, 01:10:04 AM
that thermostat o ring keeps the thermostat located in the hole and keeps coolant from getting passed it, use both it and the paper/fiber gasket.  I usually tell guys to drill a tiny 1/8 hole in the thermostat itself but seeing you are in Utah I wouldnt do that.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 24, 2017, 01:18:38 AM
I also highly suggest a Marlin 1200 clutch  https://www.marlincrawler.com/clutch/heavy-duty/clutch-hilux/1981-88-4cyl-1200-lb-clutch-kit
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 24, 2017, 03:36:08 AM
I also highly suggest a Marlin 1200 clutch  https://www.marlincrawler.com/clutch/heavy-duty/clutch-hilux/1981-88-4cyl-1200-lb-clutch-kit


If you go to a heavy duty pressure plate and sticky clutch disc, you might consider getting a new clutch slave cylinder - and having a spare.  Several guys I knew experienced the slave cylinder failure.  This failure on the trail without a spare will be a trail run you won't forget.

Several guys I knew who installed the CentreForce and heavy duty pressure plates did not like the way they grabbed on engagement.  I don't know how Marlin's kit works.

In 20+ years of wheeling, I saw more slave cylinder failures than I did clutch disc failures.

That's my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.




Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 24, 2017, 03:41:58 AM

In 20+ years of wheeling, I saw more slave cylinder failures than I did clutch disc failures.




That's why you occasionally practice clutchless shifting...........

 :think:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 24, 2017, 03:48:19 AM

That's why you occasionally practice clutchless shifting...........

 :think:

LOL..... try practicing THAT on Fordyce or the Rubicon!!

Now... if and when you make it off the trail without toasting your starter.... then you get to do some serious practice "clutchless shifting", unless you are going to trailer it home.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 24, 2017, 04:05:36 AM
If you can clutchless shift on the street, you have a chance to clutchless shift on the trail...................
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Oct 24, 2017, 05:19:36 AM
Regarding heavy-duty clutches, I think my experience may be relevant.

I've been around two different Toyota clutches; a 2WD with a normal clutch and mine with some kind of super-duper clutch. I have a love-hate relationship with mine. I love the heavy-duty clutch in mine because I can remember burning out the clutch on the 2WD with a winter of busting snowdrifts in and out. That was not a good year. I can dish out abuse to my 4WD clutch with way more confidence because it is a heavy-duty unit.

How do I know it's a heavy duty unit? Well, that's the reason I hate it. You rev the engine up to take off from a standstill, and start slowly letting the clutch in. Unless you're really careful, when the pedal is about halfway up the clutch grabs with a jerk and a ka-bang! and the truck shoots forward (on pavement) or spins a tire (on dirt) while the engine lugs down and almost stalls. After nearly 10 months of daily driving this clutch, I've got used to it somewhat, to the point where my love balances out my hate for it. But there's only so much "getting used to" can do.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 24, 2017, 06:02:19 AM
I actually have a heavy duty Marlin clutch, when I blew out my trans awhile back, I put one in along with a new Aisin slave cylinder.
I love the clutch, I can't remember what load it is rated for.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 24, 2017, 06:21:31 AM
I see a MLS headgasket with silicone embedded, and the white fluffy is for the stock exhaust manifold heat riser thing thats always tossed when you get that header from LCE
Thanks, I quickly researched and found out what they all belong to, it also has an oil cap O-ring, which is cool. It's got everything.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 24, 2017, 06:55:21 AM
... I put one in along with a new Aisin slave cylinder.
...


I kept a spare slave cylinder in my parts kits that went with me every time I went wheel'n, along with a small bottle of brake fluid.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 24, 2017, 07:01:39 AM
I kept a spare slave cylinder in my parts kits that went with me every time I went wheel'n, along with a small bottle of brake fluid.

Gnarls.
I like the idea of that, these slave cylinders get works pretty hard.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 24, 2017, 06:11:57 PM
This seems like a dumb question, but can I follow my 1985 FSM to build this motor? I know the torque differences might be different. If so, I'll just buy a 82-83 FSM on eBay. I'd hate to, I just need the engine building section.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 24, 2017, 06:37:32 PM
I'd bet the torque values are the same.........
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 25, 2017, 04:34:56 AM
This seems like a dumb question, but can I follow my 1985 FSM to build this motor? I know the torque differences might be different. If so, I'll just buy a 82-83 FSM on eBay. I'd hate to, I just need the engine building section.

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Actually that is NOT a dumb question.

After looking through upteen manuals and published manufacturer's catalogs over the past 40+ years, I have noted that there can be mistakes, misprints, misinformation, or changes over time.  So... I tend to do research and check sources for accuracy on critical specs.  Also, some torque specs in the Toyota manual I do NOT follow because the amount of ft. lbs seems too high (like the 38 ft lbs for the front axle spindle mounting bolts on a straight axle)... that's just my personal experience.

I have both Toyota Factory Truck & 4Runner Manuals - 1985 and 1986.  There are some differences in some of the specifications, like the piston specs.  So if you are relying on your local machine shop you would want to make DAMN sure that they have the correct specifications from Toyota, or they know what they should or could be between a 1985 and 1986 block, and other parts being machined or assembled, as an example.

Regarding the torque specs for the basic engine components - crank, rods, flywheel, camshaft, etc - they are the same. 

The one difference in torque specs between the spec in MY 1985 FSM and MY 1986 FSM is the oil pan to block.  In my 1986 manual it is 9 ft lbs.  In my 1985 FSM it is 52 in. lbs. which equals about 4.33 ft lbs.   NOW... that spec is in the back of the manual under Service Specifications Engine Mechanical.   BUT... in the Engine Mechanical Timing Chain sections, the manual describes in detail how to apply the sealant and torque the pan to block.  AND in that section the torque specs are the same for the 1985 and 1986 manual - both showing 9 ft lbs.    I would go with the 9 ft lbs spec, but perhaps someone could explain why there is a difference in the printed spec between the repair section and the specifications section of the back of the 1985 Toyota FSM.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Oct 25, 2017, 05:04:18 AM
The bolts holding my oil pan on my '85 are pretty wimpy. Didn't Toyota upgrade those bolts sometime in the mid '80s?
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 25, 2017, 05:21:09 AM
The bolts holding my oil pan on my '85 are pretty wimpy. Didn't Toyota upgrade those bolts sometime in the mid '80s?

The same bolt has been used on the Toyota pickup and 4Runner from '79 to '95.  And many other Toyota vehicles in that year range.

In my limited experience, the bolts are not the issue, it's the sealant/gasket and keeping the bolts and 2 stud nuts properly tightened.  The oil pan for me has always been a source of oil leaks, and I take extra care to minimize that issue.  And, there are different opinions on sealants and gaskets for the pan to block.  I've tried different gaskets and RTV sealant, so far my recent rebuild I have no oil leaks around the oil pan on my 1986 22RE.  :crossed:

Since I learned a recommended bolt sealant from Permatex - the Thread Sealant w/PTFE, while I am replacing the seal and gasket on my input shaft housing on my W-56 tranny, the next time I have to drop the oil pan, or if it develops some leaks, I will try the Ultra Grey on the pan and the Thread Sealant w/PTFE on the bolts.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 25, 2017, 06:19:51 AM
Actually that is NOT a dumb question.

After looking through upteen manuals and published manufacturer's catalogs over the past 40+ years, I have noted that there can be mistakes, misprints, misinformation, or changes over time.  So... I tend to do research and check sources for accuracy on critical specs.  Also, some torque specs in the Toyota manual I do NOT follow because the amount of ft. lbs seems too high (like the 38 ft lbs for the front axle spindle mounting bolts on a straight axle)... that's just my personal experience.

I have both Toyota Factory Truck & 4Runner Manuals - 1985 and 1986.  There are some differences in some of the specifications, like the piston specs.  So if you are relying on your local machine shop you would want to make DAMN sure that they have the correct specifications from Toyota, or they know what they should or could be between a 1985 and 1986 block, and other parts being machined or assembled, as an example.

Regarding the torque specs for the basic engine components - crank, rods, flywheel, camshaft, etc - they are the same. 

The one difference in torque specs between the spec in MY 1985 FSM and MY 1986 FSM is the oil pan to block.  In my 1986 manual it is 9 ft lbs.  In my 1985 FSM it is 52 in. lbs. which equals about 4.33 ft lbs.   NOW... that spec is in the back of the manual under Service Specifications Engine Mechanical.   BUT... in the Engine Mechanical Timing Chain sections, the manual describes in detail how to apply the sealant and torque the pan to block.  AND in that section the torque specs are the same for the 1985 and 1986 manual - both showing 9 ft lbs.    I would go with the 9 ft lbs spec, but perhaps someone could explain why there is a difference in the printed spec between the repair section and the specifications section of the back of the 1985 Toyota FSM.

Gnarls.
Thanks for the helpful tip, I have been debating buying an old manual from 81-83, as it would have a lot of stuff I need, but if most of the torque specs are the same I'm good with that. My main question is the timing guides and tensioner, and what those need to be at. What do you think?

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 25, 2017, 06:42:43 AM
.... My main question is the timing guides and tensioner, and what those need to be at. What do you think?


If haven't already visited and bookmarked this site, Roger's site has an incredible amount detailed information!

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/EngineMods/TimingChain.shtml

The guide bolts have a boss on them so the bolt doesn't crush the guide.  As I remember the bolts for the tensioner do not, so be careful not to over tighten it and crush the tensioner.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 25, 2017, 06:48:05 AM
...  I have been debating buying an old manual from 81-83, as it would have a lot of stuff I need....

If I put dollar bill in a piggy bank for every hour I spent reading my Toyota FSMs since 1986 - I'd have enough saved up to take a really nice All-Inclusive Caribbean Cruise!!!

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 25, 2017, 07:36:44 AM
If I put dollar bill in a piggy bank for every hour I spent reading my Toyota FSMs since 1986 - I'd have enough saved up to take a really nice All-Inclusive Caribbean Cruise!!!

Gnarls.
Thanks, I plan on buying one. And one for 85.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Oct 26, 2017, 06:52:29 AM
LC Engineering saves the day :)



(https://i.imgur.com/HUVrVTJ.png)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 09, 2017, 11:50:51 AM
Hey everyone, taking the crank and rods Tomorrow to get done up!

However, I have a question, in regards to the flywheel. The flywheel from the early 22R is going to work with my Heavy Duty Marlin Clutch right? I know there is some differences in clutches through the years. I have a G52, not that it matters.

I'm going to get the rotating assembly balanced, so the shop says they need the rods, pistons, and the flywheel. It's $120 for the balance.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 10, 2017, 06:28:53 AM
Took my rods and crank yesterday to get machined. I also, ordered pistons!! LCE Hyper pistons. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/bc02c12224ef83ae7ec94d9a42c8077c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 13, 2017, 06:15:33 PM
Checking the piston ring gap, it is pretty darn confusing I must say.

On the first compression ring, I got between .014" to .018" with all 4 top compression rings on all 4 cylinders. My block is bored .020"
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 13, 2017, 06:30:16 PM
I believe I am a little confused about the end gap, I know the minimum gap, I calculated it, and I am above the minimum. What about the maximum? I can't seem to find a clear answer when it comes to the maximum gap. Could someone help me out? much appreciated!!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Nov 13, 2017, 06:41:14 PM
as from the 85 truck and 4runner FSM


(https://i.imgur.com/SUxrzcZ.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 13, 2017, 07:27:07 PM
I believe I am a little confused about the end gap, I know the minimum gap, I calculated it, and I am above the minimum. What about the maximum? I can't seem to find a clear answer when it comes to the maximum gap. Could someone help me out? much appreciated!!

Which manufacturer of the rings did you buy from LCE?  The manufacturer of the rings will provide you the gap specs.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 13, 2017, 07:40:26 PM
If the rings supplied with your LCE pistons are Hastings....

https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs/checking-compression-ring-gaps

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Nov 14, 2017, 08:23:45 AM
if you got hastings +1 to you. I prefer to use them in every engine i build unless otherwise instructed. all of my 22r engines have been built with hastings and i can say  i have been very pleased.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Nov 14, 2017, 11:57:52 PM

How do I know it's a heavy duty unit? Well, that's the reason I hate it. You rev the engine up to take off from a standstill, and start slowly letting the clutch in. Unless you're really careful, when the pedal is about halfway up the clutch grabs with a jerk and a ka-bang! and the truck shoots forward (on pavement) or spins a tire (on dirt) while the engine lugs down and almost stalls. After nearly 10 months of daily driving this clutch, I've got used to it somewhat, to the point where my love balances out my hate for it. But there's only so much "getting used to" can do.

you have a ceramic clutch nothing like the one I have from Marlin.   Marlin sells ceramic clutches but they are for racing or offroad.    I have the NON ceramic aka regular clutch in a 1200 lb flavor.   I installed this clutch in 2002 with a new slave and master because I was a little worried and they were old, like ten or more years.
  :driving:  I am still running the exact same slave and master the clutch/pressure plate were installed with.   It has a smooth feel like a normal clutch but has beefier components inside the pressure plate to clamp harder once the pedal is fully released.    it doesnt have weights on the outside like a centerforce that require the clutch to spin up to work.
it has a slightly heavier pedal feel but that is the only difference, well that and not burning the clutch out in 6 months.

If you go to a heavy duty pressure plate and sticky clutch disc, you might consider getting a new clutch slave cylinder - and having a spare.  Several guys I knew experienced the slave cylinder failure.  This failure on the trail without a spare will be a trail run you won't forget.

Several guys I knew who installed the CentreForce and heavy duty pressure plates did not like the way they grabbed on engagement.  I don't know how Marlin's kit works.

In 20+ years of wheeling, I saw more slave cylinder failures than I did clutch disc failures.

That's my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.






Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Nov 15, 2017, 12:09:42 AM
I believe I am a little confused about the end gap, I know the minimum gap, I calculated it, and I am above the minimum. What about the maximum? I can't seem to find a clear answer when it comes to the maximum gap. Could someone help me out? much appreciated!!

anything more than .030 ish and (if you arent running KeithBlack Hyper pistons anyway) and you start making a little blow by til the cylinder gets to operating temperature.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 15, 2017, 05:17:11 AM
LC Engineering saves the day :)



(https://i.imgur.com/HUVrVTJ.png)

I torqued my pressure plate bolts down to 14 lbs per FSM spec, using my little 3/8" ratchet.  At that torque spec, they did NOT feel tight enough for me, so I went to 30 lbs on my clicker torque wrench.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 15, 2017, 08:07:38 AM
Which manufacturer of the rings did you buy from LCE?  The manufacturer of the rings will provide you the gap specs.

Gnarls.
I bought from LCE, I followed Hastings recommendation for the gap and I am over the minimum, which is good, as I know what can happen.
The maximum is what I'm having concerns about, I know the FSM says the max, but it doesn't give values for if your block is bored.

What does everyone think? I did a gap on all my rings, all of them are within the .014 to .018 range on all cylinders with all rings, tested at the bottom of the cylinder.

Does this value seem decent to you guys? I wanna make sure this thing lasts.

Sorry for the questions that many would feel are stupid, I just wanna make sure that this thing lasts!!!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 15, 2017, 08:47:39 AM
Using Hastings guide for the minimum gap, they recommend a minimum gap of 0.0127", all my values are between .014 to .018, so I'm definitely above the minimum gap.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 08, 2017, 06:29:32 PM
This thread is not dead!

Got my timing set today, bought it on yotashop as they seemed to be the only place I could find that stocks an OSK kit.

I've heard great things about the OSK sets so I bought one, I used one when I did the chain on my truck 15K miles ago so why not get another?

This is a dual row kit, it has all the sprockets and the chain, all with that sweet MADE IN JAPAN stamp I love to see.

I wanted to do a comparison of some stuff from the kit, the gaskets, compared to my actual Toyota kit are different in material, the OSK kit has these paper gaskets, while the Toyota has these gaskets made out of some other material I can't exactly determine.

The Toyota gaskets are also thicker and seem like they will probably work better than the OSK kit, but looks aren't everything.

And the front oil pump seal, the one provided in the Toyota kit is super thin, about half the thickness of the OSK kit, which leads me to believe that the Toyota seal is designed to not ride in the groove the stock seal made from thousands of miles, so it probably rides on clean non grooved metal.

However this is all just speculation, I could be wrong. Just what I observed. Can't wait for my oil pump and water pump to come in so I can paint them. (Ford grey)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171209/0b191a6dd765ce7f42694016d636775e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171209/0b5c39043953cdda81079203c4dc73b0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171209/5a2454107cbcadbd8af7ea4527482410.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 09, 2017, 04:19:37 AM

I've heard great things about the OSK sets so I bought one, I used one when I did the chain on my truck 15K miles ago so why not get another?

Question:  What happened at 15K?

Quote
This is a dual row kit, it has all the sprockets and the chain, all with that sweet MADE IN JAPAN stamp I love to see.

I would not have gone with the dual row chain, unless only option.... just my personal preference.

Did the OSK kit come with metal backed chain guides?

Quote
I wanted to do a comparison of some stuff from the kit, the gaskets, compared to my actual Toyota kit are different in material, the OSK kit has these paper gaskets, while the Toyota has these gaskets made out of some other material I can't exactly determine.

Unless you, or anyone else, is a Materials expert, how do you know what material is better or not?  The parts or materials used in an automated manufacturing environment may be entirely different than an aftermarket part, and using one or the other in a rebuild may or may not be the best choice.

Quote
The Toyota gaskets are also thicker and seem like they will probably work better than the OSK kit, but looks aren't everything.
  You are already 2nd guessing two of the best known quality manufacturers and brands on the planet?

Quote
And the front oil pump seal, the one provided in the Toyota kit is super thin, about half the thickness of the OSK kit, which leads me to believe that the Toyota seal is designed to not ride in the groove the stock seal made from thousands of miles, so it probably rides on clean non grooved metal.
  Again, you are making assumptions with zero understanding of facts.  Also, if your harmonic balancer and pulley shaft is grooved and you are concerned with the replacement seal leaking - replace the pulley.

Quote
However this is all just speculation, I could be wrong. Just what I observed. Can't wait for my oil pump and water pump to come in so I can paint them. (Ford grey)

To your credit, you did state your disclaimer.  I like your observations.  :beerchug:

And speaking of "speculation" and observations, there are lots of posts on lots of automotive sites that are simply someone's experience with a gasket - the subject of head gaskets for the 22s is a highly debated and discussed example.  BUT... rarely, if ever, do I read that someone's experience with a failure is backed by reasonable research, professional or scientific failure analysis, and any real facts.

Gnarls. 


Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 09, 2017, 08:58:24 AM
15K miles ago I did the timing chain on my 85 22R block that's in my truck, the guides went bad.

This OSK kit comes with metal backed guides, this is an early style dual row motor, so I wanted to only put parts in it that came out of it.

My assumptions on the gaskets are just that, assumptions. I know nothing, sure, I have experience with these parts but that means nothing.

I'm NOT trying to make myself sound like an expert, I'm simply just pointing out how the Toyota gasket is probably better. I wasn't even saying the seals we're lesser quality, just simply stating that to me, the Toyota seal looks designed to not ride in the groove that the old seal made.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Mudder on Dec 09, 2017, 01:49:50 PM
There actually are 2 different seals that I know of. The thinner one is used by most so it'll seal against the crankshaft where the old one wasn't riding by allowing you to either place it deeper or shallower in the hole on the timing cover. I've done this in the past to get my leaks to stop.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Slabzilla on Dec 09, 2017, 05:33:40 PM
The head gasket debate will continue.  I've used Fel-pro head gaskets on several 22-RE's, no problems/many miles, same results with Toyota head gaskets, so it's a toss-up depending on cleanliness of and attention to detail upon installation.  I've not had a head gasket returned except for a blown radiator hose/overheat problem-operator error.  My 2cents your experience may vary, no warranty implied.   :usa:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 09, 2017, 05:44:54 PM
15K miles ago I did the timing chain on my 85 22R block that's in my truck, the guides went bad.

This OSK kit comes with metal backed guides, this is an early style dual row motor, so I wanted to only put parts in it that came out of it.

My assumptions on the gaskets are just that, assumptions. I know nothing, sure, I have experience with these parts but that means nothing.

I'm NOT trying to make myself sound like an expert, I'm simply just pointing out how the Toyota gasket is probably better. I wasn't even saying the seals we're lesser quality, just simply stating that to me, the Toyota seal looks designed to not ride in the groove that the old seal made.

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Hey Toybrota,

Your post did not read, to me, like you were trying to sound like an expert.  Clearly you were just describing what you were seeing, and that is good information.

I have also had premature chain guide failure using the plastic guides.  I was kind of running an experiment, and surprised the plastic guides failed within such low mileage on a brand new timing kit.. as I remember is was a NAPA.

Experience means something for sure.

I'm looking forward to reading more as you post your progress.

In the words of Marilyn vos Savant...

"To acquire knowledge, one must study, but to acquire wisdom, one must observe."

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 09, 2017, 05:46:34 PM
There actually are 2 different seals that I know of. The thinner one is used by most so it'll seal against the crankshaft where the old one wasn't riding by allowing you to either place it deeper or shallower in the hole on the timing cover. I've done this in the past to get my leaks to stop.

This is good to know.  :beerchug:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 09, 2017, 06:16:48 PM
The head gasket debate will continue.  I've used Fel-pro head gaskets on several 22-RE's, no problems/many miles, same results with Toyota head gaskets, so it's a toss-up depending on cleanliness of and attention to detail upon installation.  I've not had a head gasket returned except for a blown radiator hose/overheat problem-operator error.  My 2cents your experience may vary, no warranty implied.   :usa:

Right... I heard and participated in discussions, way before there were internet forums (back in the 1960's), about head gaskets.  We've all probably read the posts over the years from a backyard mechanic ragging on FelPro because it failed.  Fel-Pro has a 100 year history.  It has developed, engineered, designed, marketed, and installed it's head gaskets in some the most challenging engine rebuild technology... diesel engines... compression ratios of 22:1, and millions of engines.

There is no doubt there is a range of quality in the parts being sold in the automotive industry....

like .... vegetables and toilet paper.   :gap:

Gnarls. :blah:

 




Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Aug 31, 2018, 11:07:58 PM
It's been awhile, but this build is still very much alive and well.

Picked up an intake, exhuast and carb for $70!

This engine may go in my 2WD, or in my 85.



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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 08, 2018, 10:54:45 AM
Hey Everyone, this engine build is gonna be finally moving along here in a couple weeks.
If you haven't seen, I bought an 85' 4WD single cab that I'm going to be transplanting this engine into.
In the coming weeks I'm getting the flywheel machined ($40) and the entire rotating assembly balanced. Do you think it's worth it to balance it for a 22R? It's $200 for the balance. I may go somewhere else.
And then the head will get machined, I'm wanting to assemble a short block first without the head.

And now, for a question.
I got my crank machined about 6 months ago, it's been stored in my bedroom on a steel shelf (obviously not on the bearing surfaces)
There was some very fine and very light flash corrosion on one of the mains, not deep at all.
I tried using WD40 on it, but it wouldn't come off.
Should I get the crank polished again?

To prevent further corrosion, what is a good way to prevent this? I heavily coated the main and rod bearings surfaces with oil, and rapped a strip of paper towel around it to make it stick. I also coated the cylinder bores with a thin film of oil.

My house doesn't have a swamp cooler so the air conditioning is pretty dry.

And to leave you with a picture of my new truck

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180908/05130f6c3bf323a16634404446c2950b.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 09, 2018, 04:15:06 AM
Hi T,

On the crankshaft…  What is probably on the crank journals is micro corrosion, micro inches of oxidation. I would take 600 grit emery cloth and lightly work a strip the width of the journal back and forth.  The corrosion will be probably be removed.  I’d clean it really well with solvent, then wipe it with a very thin coat of motor oil or WD-40.

If the emery cloth does not remove the corrosion completely I’d let my machine shop look at, and they’d most likely recommend re-polishing it.

On the balancing question….  Todd at engnbldr said he did not recommend having my rebuild balanced.  Also, 22RE Performance's Stage 2 engine appears to NOT be balanced.  I have not confirmed that with Jim.

When I asked my machine shop, of course, they recommended a balancing.  I had them check and balance the rods, crank, flywheel with pressure plate.  Unless you are building a high revving engine -  6,000 or higher, I doubt that balancing it will make any difference in performance or longevity on our little inline 4 cylinder engines.  My machine only charged $95.00, so I decided to have them do it because I was really curious what they would find.

On the flywheel “machined”…I assume the contact surfaces will be machined flat and smooth and also make sure that the crankshaft mating surface is true and perpendicular to the crankshaft.  I’d consider cost and turn-around time.  That is a good idea if you installing a new clutch disc and pressure plate, AND the shop is NOT charging very much.  You can buy a brand LUK flywheel from RockAuto for $37.00.  On all 3 of my trucks that I did a clutch job - to the flywheel, I simply took 10 or 15 minutes with some 400 emery cloth and a flat block and sanded the surface where the clutch disc mates to get any glaze or micro-grooving, then finished sanding it with 600 grit.  Unless the surface is heat stressed or has surface cracks or deep grooves (which may need to be replaced), the machining would insure that the contact surface is flat and smooth.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.




Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 10, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
Hi T,

On the crankshaft…  What is probably on the crank journals is micro corrosion, micro inches of oxidation. I would take 600 grit emery cloth and lightly work a strip the width of the journal back and forth.  The corrosion will be probably be removed.  I’d clean it really well with solvent, then wipe it with a very thin coat of motor oil or WD-40.

If the emery cloth does not remove the corrosion completely I’d let my machine shop look at, and they’d most likely recommend re-polishing it.

On the balancing question….  Todd at engnbldr said he did not recommend having my rebuild balanced.  Also, 22RE Performance's Stage 2 engine appears to NOT be balanced.  I have not confirmed that with Jim.

When I asked my machine shop, of course, they recommended a balancing.  I had them check and balance the rods, crank, flywheel with pressure plate.  Unless you are building a high revving engine -  6,000 or higher, I doubt that balancing it will make any difference in performance or longevity on our little inline 4 cylinder engines.  My machine only charged $95.00, so I decided to have them do it because I was really curious what they would find.

On the flywheel “machined”…I assume the contact surfaces will be machined flat and smooth and also make sure that the crankshaft mating surface is true and perpendicular to the crankshaft.  I’d consider cost and turn-around time.  That is a good idea if you installing a new clutch disc and pressure plate, AND the shop is NOT charging very much.  You can buy a brand LUK flywheel from RockAuto for $37.00.  On all 3 of my trucks that I did a clutch job - to the flywheel, I simply took 10 or 15 minutes with some 400 emery cloth and a flat block and sanded the surface where the clutch disc mates to get any glaze or micro-grooving, then finished sanding it with 600 grit.  Unless the surface is heat stressed or has surface cracks or deep grooves (which may need to be replaced), the machining would insure that the contact surface is flat and smooth.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.
Hey Gnarls, thanks for the input on the crank. Below is a picture of it, it's so faint it doesn't even want to show up on photo. I bought 2000 grit sandpaper, I figured that way I don't cut too deep.
However, I may just have it polished again. Not sure. What do you think? I'm going to plastigauge anyways, so I will check that area specifically.
I also have an LCE repair sleeve for the crankshaft, do you think these are worth running? I was gonna see if the machine shop would do it for me.

And for the clutch, I loved the clutch disc you recommended back when I did the leaking input shaft seal on my truck. Does Rock Auto sell a complete clutch kit that you'd recommend?

Since the motor is out, I will be replacing the input shaft seal and bearing retainer gasket.

I also went ahead and ordered a TON of parts, from three different vendors.

From "Toyota Parts deal" I got OEM Toyota head bolts, as well as the seal and gasket for the transmission. They have tons of NOS parts, including brand new complete frames...

From LCE I got a timing cover bolt kit, and my mains and rod bearings.

I also ordered a AISIN water pump from Yotashop, good prices from them.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180911/5ace8c14ef4e55bb17de605c4d7e91ae.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 11, 2018, 05:56:56 AM
Hey T,

600 grit would not have been able to remove too much metal.  Based on the photo, it looks like there is still some surface micro corrosion or pitting.  The journals should be a mirror chrome-like finish. If 600 grit does not remove it, I’d have the shop re-polish it.  I believe H8PVMNT has done quit a bit of work on refreshing crankshafts, he would have some good input.

On seal sleeves… I’ve read mixed reviews on their use.  If the crankshaft has deep grooving on the rear crank where the seal rides, and you don’t want to replace the crankshaft, then the sleeve is an option.

So the “input shaft”… are you talking about the transmission input shaft?  If you haven’t already read it, check out my posts in the transmission section on the input shaft seal issue that I went through.

On the clutch kit, is the clutch disc contaminated with oil?  If not, I don’t believe you have enough miles on it to need replacing.  If you want to replace it with a kit, I’d go with M-Pact, LUK, Beck Arnley, or Aisin.  Although they are popular, I would NOT buy a heavy duty kit – I’ve never smoked a stock style clutch in any of my trucks.  Be sure to replace the pilot bearing.  Before installing the tranny into the bell housing, and before you install the new pilot bearing, be sure you slip the pilot bearing over the end of the input shaft to make sure it slips on the tip of the shaft easily.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota,1985,pickup,2.4l+l4,1277300,transmission-manual,clutch+kit,1993


On installing the bolts for the water pump and timing cover, unless you know for sure, be sure to measure the depth of each bolt hole and note the location for each bolt, and know which ones also will hold a bracket when finally installed.

I may have missed something.   Please keep us posted on your progress.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 11, 2018, 09:09:36 AM
Hey T,

600 grit would not have been able to remove too much metal.  Based on the photo, it looks like there is still some surface micro corrosion or pitting.  The journals should be a mirror chrome-like finish. If 600 grit does not remove it, I’d have the shop re-polish it.  I believe H8PVMNT has done quit a bit of work on refreshing crankshafts, he would have some good input.

On seal sleeves… I’ve read mixed reviews on their use.  If the crankshaft has deep grooving on the rear crank where the seal rides, and you don’t want to replace the crankshaft, then the sleeve is an option.

So the “input shaft”… are you talking about the transmission input shaft?  If you haven’t already read it, check out my posts in the transmission section on the input shaft seal issue that I went through.

On the clutch kit, is the clutch disc contaminated with oil?  If not, I don’t believe you have enough miles on it to need replacing.  If you want to replace it with a kit, I’d go with M-Pact, LUK, Beck Arnley, or Aisin.  Although they are popular, I would NOT buy a heavy duty kit – I’ve never smoked a stock style clutch in any of my trucks.  Be sure to replace the pilot bearing.  Before installing the tranny into the bell housing, and before you install the new pilot bearing, be sure you slip the pilot bearing over the end of the input shaft to make sure it slips on the tip of the shaft easily.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota,1985,pickup,2.4l+l4,1277300,transmission-manual,clutch+kit,1993


On installing the bolts for the water pump and timing cover, unless you know for sure, be sure to measure the depth of each bolt hole and note the location for each bolt, and know which ones also will hold a bracket when finally installed.

I may have missed something.   Please keep us posted on your progress.

Gnarls.
I'm taking the crank to get it polished today, I figured it's $40 so why not have the pros do it? I'm also taking my flywheel to be resurfaced today.
As far as the input shaft seal, I do mean on the transmission. This transmission is brand new, but I'm replacing the input shaft seal and gasket anyways. Good insurance after all.
In regards to the clutch, I currently have no idea what it's condition is. It grabs great, the truck still drives (With bad knocking) but I figured I might as well replace it when I'm in there. I'll try and source an Aisin pressure plate, but I'll do that Rock Auto clutch disc that you recommended last time since it works so good.

The crank is pretty grooved, hence my desire to install a sleeve. I'm going to see if the machine shop will install it for me, as they'd get it straight.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180911/b2c7af7005390ce2c519e3c24e39b474.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 11, 2018, 09:28:27 PM
Update from today ~
Took the crank and flywheel to a machine shop today, "Hunter Machine" in West valley, Utah.

They looked at the crank and said that it was in no way going to need a Polish, great new for me.
He said the corrosion was barely even anything, and to just put it in as is.
He also installed the seal saver I brought in, for free.

Dropped the flywheel off for a $45 resurfacing.

As far as the clutch is concerned, I looked at Rock Auto and LCE, LCE sells a clutch kit for $110 from Exedy. I decided on that one, comes with new bearings.

Block gets Assembly on Saturday, picking up a ring expander and ring compressor tool.
Plastigauge checking ever journal of course.
Piston rings already gapped. Seating the thrust washer seems very tedious, but I have an idea from some videos I've watched. Can't wait to get the motor pulled, most likely before October!

Also, can anyone recommended a good break in procedure? I'm using the original cam. I am going to follow cam break in procedures anyways, to help seat the piston rings. After that I figured I'd just drive it, very carefully varying RPM for the first 500 miles with no freeways. Anyone see this as a problem? After the initial valve adjustment, it'll get valve checks every oil change along with head bolt re-torque every few.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 12, 2018, 05:29:30 AM
Update from today ~
Took the crank and flywheel to a machine shop today, "Hunter Machine" in West valley, Utah.

They looked at the crank and said that it was in no way going to need a Polish, great new for me.
He said the corrosion was barely even anything, and to just put it in as is.
He also installed the seal saver I brought in, for free.

Dropped the flywheel off for a $45 resurfacing.

As far as the clutch is concerned, I looked at Rock Auto and LCE, LCE sells a clutch kit for $110 from Exedy. I decided on that one, comes with new bearings. 

Block gets Assembly on Saturday, picking up a ring expander and ring compressor tool.
Plastigauge checking ever journal of course.
Piston rings already gapped. Seating the thrust washer seems very tedious, but I have an idea from some videos I've watched. Can't wait to get the motor pulled, most likely before October!

Also, can anyone recommended a good break in procedure? I'm using the original cam. I am going to follow cam break in procedures anyways, to help seat the piston rings. After that I figured I'd just drive it, very carefully varying RPM for the first 500 miles with no freeways. Anyone see this as a problem? After the initial valve adjustment, it'll get valve checks every oil change along with head bolt re-torque every few.

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Hi T,

Glad you don't have to polish the crank... saves some money.  It's hard visualize looking at a 2D low res photo.  Hunter publishes their prices... nice.

Break in... I've had many conversations about engine "break-in procedures" for a rebuild.  I'd go with 22RE Performance's version.  The main thing is not to "baby" the engine during the first 50 to 100 miles.  I'm curious what procedure Hunter will recommend.

Who's pistons and rings did you end up with?

What is your thinking on not installing a new camshaft?

The clutch kit... I would replace the disc, pressure plate, pilot bearing, and throw-out bearing.  I no experience with Exedy.  Exedy is a USA subsidiary of a Japanese company... for what that's worth.

It is typically recommened to change break-in oil at about 500 miles.  I would not wait for oil change to check valve lash. You are going to set valve lash cold.  After firing engine, after 100 miles, I'd re-check valve lash.

If you are not installing new cam, no need to do a "cam" break in, but can't hurt to keep oil pressure up for 20 minutes at fast idle.

Ring gap... so you checked the gap after the block has been machined, what has been done to the block?

Did you decide to go with balancing or not?

Thank you for keeping us updated.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 12, 2018, 06:34:41 AM
Hi T,

Glad you don't have to polish the crank... saves some money.  It's hard visualize looking at a 2D low res photo.  Hunter publishes their prices... nice.

Break in... I've had many conversations about engine "break-in procedures" for a rebuild.  I'd go with 22RE Performance's version.  The main thing is not to "baby" the engine during the first 50 to 100 miles.  I'm curious what procedure Hunter will recommend.

Who's pistons and rings did you end up with?

What is your thinking on not installing a new camshaft?

The clutch kit... I would replace the disc, pressure plate, pilot bearing, and throw-out bearing.  I no experience with Exedy.  Exedy is a USA subsidiary of a Japanese company... for what that's worth.

It is typically recommened to change break-in oil at about 500 miles.  I would not wait for oil change to check valve lash. You are going to set valve lash cold.  After firing engine, after 100 miles, I'd re-check valve lash.

If you are not installing new cam, no need to do a "cam" break in, but can't hurt to keep oil pressure up for 20 minutes at fast idle.

Ring gap... so you checked the gap after the block has been machined, what has been done to the block?

Did you decide to go with balancing or not?

Thank you for keeping us updated.

Gnarls.
Rings, I'm using Hastings. Block is bored 0.020" over and is matched with the correct pistons.
Ring gap was sitting a little over 0.013" on all cylinders, minimum I calculated to be 0.012 (using LCE guide lines). Pistons are Hypereutectic from LCE.

Reason for keeping the cam, well it's a stock truck that will never see tires larger than 29's.
The stock Cam profile works for me, so why spend needless money?

Hunter recommended that I don't balance the crank and everything else, so I'm not going to.

For the break in, it'll get valve adjustments as soon as it's done running and getting to opperating temp. I plan not to baby it, I'm going to stay away from anything over 3500 RPM for the first little bit. Engine break-in seems to revolve around varying engine speed, so thats what it'll get.
Clutch kit will come with everything, so everything is getting replaced.

The only thing I'm in the dark on, is the emissions stuff. I got an early 22R exhaust manifold that'll go onto the down tube.
Any experience cleaning the EGR valve? I don't want this engine getting crap left over from the previous engine(s)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 13, 2018, 08:00:35 AM
Flywheel got machined, it looks super nice. I'll take some pictures later.

I decided that I was gonna do a complete de-smog while I'm installing the motor, because it's just simple block off plates.
Plus, where I live now I don't have to do emissions.
I've heard they run better like this, and it's way less complex.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 13, 2018, 08:45:48 AM
Rings, I'm using Hastings. Block is bored 0.020" over and is matched with the correct pistons.
Ring gap was sitting a little over 0.013" on all cylinders, minimum I calculated to be 0.012 (using LCE guide lines). Pistons are Hypereutectic from LCE.

Reason for keeping the cam, well it's a stock truck that will never see tires larger than 29's.
The stock Cam profile works for me, so why spend needless money?

Hunter recommended that I don't balance the crank and everything else, so I'm not going to.

For the break in, it'll get valve adjustments as soon as it's done running and getting to opperating temp. I plan not to baby it, I'm going to stay away from anything over 3500 RPM for the first little bit. Engine break-in seems to revolve around varying engine speed, so thats what it'll get.
Clutch kit will come with everything, so everything is getting replaced.

The only thing I'm in the dark on, is the emissions stuff. I got an early 22R exhaust manifold that'll go onto the down tube.
Any experience cleaning the EGR valve? I don't want this engine getting crap left over from the previous engine(s)


On my 85 22R, I left the EGR and smog stuff installed. I did clean every thing when did a head job.  There should be lots of information on removing that stuff.  The EGR tube and plate does get carbon'd up pretty badly in high mileage engines.  Mine was partially plugged up.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 13, 2018, 06:07:06 PM
On my 85 22R, I left the EGR and smog stuff installed. I did clean every thing when did a head job.  There should be lots of information on removing that stuff.  The EGR tube and plate does get carbon'd up pretty badly in high mileage engines.  Mine was partially plugged up.

Gnarls.
I'm planning on just removing the emissions garbage.
A closer look at the rocker arms shows that I should buy a new set of rockers, looks like I'll do the cam too while I'm at it. Not sure what cam I should go for, probably something that lowers the torque curve.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 17, 2018, 11:17:41 AM
Wasn't a good weekend for trying to assemble!

The main bearings I ordered from LCE cane damaged, the way the manufacturers package engine bearings is just dumb and doesn't make sense. Oh well, they are gonna exchange the bearings for free, so I'm happy.

Since I wasn't able to get the crank in, I plastigauge checked the rod bearings and they are all within spec as they should be.

As far as the rods go, I never marked them when I tore this motor down initially. Is this going to pose a problem? I have all the piston and rods marked now from how I checked them, So each one goes in the cylinder that it was checked on.

And also, what is the deal with the marks on these rod bearings? This is JUST from Plastigauge checking them, is this just a coating that is meant to come off?

Pictures are all over the place, the mobile app sucks...

I may order new rod bearings because of this coating that got removed, too over kill?
Or as long as the shiny portion of the bearing isn't scratched, I'm good to go? I did the "Fingernail" test to see if my nail got hung up anywhere, it doesn't but removed the grey Graphite (I'm assuming) coating.

I also included a picture on how I'm plastigauge checking the rods. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180917/1ce76d3f17a05c050a23617b08c8f6c3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180917/19cad25d6c5d9611c2b12861faaf5b49.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180917/46292b266297df3ce9027dbacccd2e59.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180917/77607b33a5a20aae19fa8c9d1c82886b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180917/959ff45cf02a3d60423589d411cba67b.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 17, 2018, 08:36:31 PM
Jesus, hang up after hang up!

Tonight I figured for the hell of it, I'd check to see if there was any play from the connecting rod bushings with these new pistons. All was fine, except for one rod.

Thing is, I PAID the machine shop to check over the bushings, and they charged me for it. But clearly it wasn't done properly. Great!

So tomorrow, I'm gonna take the piston and rod assemblies (minus the rings, I'll remove them) to the shop I got the work done. Luckily, I still have the tag that was attached to my stuff when I was there.

This is super frustrating, I just want to get this engine together.

On a lighter note, LCE agreed to exchange my rod bearings for a different, hopefully less destroyed set. So, all isn't terrible. Hopefully I can assemble the block next weekend, bearings should be here by then and the rods should be done too. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180918/fc3eb5beb216398e31b5c1f32409c012.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 20, 2018, 10:23:18 AM
Yet another update. Rods are getting new bushings.

The machine shop did check the rods, they were just on the high side of the service limit. Since I want this to last, I am getting them replaced. I get free parts, which is nice.
Paying about $80 to get new bushings.

Also dropped another $125 for 22RE Performance reground rockers.
Shipping off the bad bearings back to LCE today, and hopefully they get a new set sent my way as well.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 21, 2018, 08:15:22 AM
....
Thing is, I PAID the machine shop to check over the bushings, and they charged me for it. But clearly it wasn't done properly. Great!


The issue of improper machine work, and what comes out of the machine shop may be way too often a problem.  I trusted my machine shop, but I did not verify with own measurements the accuracy of their machine work.  This *may* be is the issue now with my rebuild.

Any future machine shop I have done, I will ask for proof of the machine work and a detailed measurement of results report, and then I will triple check the work and all measurements with own gauges.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 21, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
The issue of improper machine work, and what comes out of the machine shop may be way too often a problem.  I trusted my machine shop, but I did not verify with own measurements the accuracy of their machine work.  This *may* be is the issue now with my rebuild.

Any future machine shop I have done, I will ask for proof of the machine work and a detailed measurement of results report, and then I will triple check the work and all measurements with own gauges.

Gnarls.
What is the issue with your rebuild?

I am almost convinced that a rebuilt 22R will never see the mileage that it did when it left the factory.

I have been thinking though...

On ToyotaPartsDeal you can buy a BRAND new 22R block, for $2300. New old stock.
You can also buy brand new never complete frames on there too... But that's for a different story.

Why are rebuilt 22R's so unreliable? Sounds like most issues are with machine shops.
To break away from that, spend the extra bucks and get brand new never machined TOYOTA parts.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 22, 2018, 09:10:57 AM
What is the issue with your rebuild?




My issue is ..... after over 10,000 miles since the complete rebuild of this engine it is burning about 1 quart of oil approximately every 600 miles.  There is no smoke and no detectable blow-by... .just oil consumption.  The power is good.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 22, 2018, 09:25:24 AM

I am almost convinced that a rebuilt 22R will never see the mileage that it did when it left the factory.



I have read 100s of posts in multiple Toyota sites over the last 20 years discussing simple tuning problems to major failures on early Toyota engine rebuilds.  The problems stem from the backyard DIYer that claims to do a rebuild in 2 hours to the purchased short blocks, long blocks, and turn-keys.  From all kinds sources and parts.

I believe it takes WAY more knowledge, experience, selection of the right parts and machine work starting with understanding the desired application for the engine, and the age and condition of the block.

I also believe that there are a few Toyota engine builders out there that take a great deal of pride in what they offer in parts and rebuilds, and have a very reputable history of providing very high quality products.

I would bet that a Stage 1 or Stage 2 engine from 22RE Performance will easily go as many miles or more miles as any stock factory engine.

When it comes to the necessary machine work, you'd better be VERY sure you know exactly what is being done and what ALL of the specs and measurements are, and what should be done to insure the very best rebuild (sonic tested and magnafluxed, rings and RA matched, for example) --- before you start the assembly.

With the poor quality of some after market parts for our early Toyota trucks, one has to be extremely careful to choose the best quality available.  The difference is cost typically ends up completely irrelevant to the outcome and result of the rebuild.  Saving a couple hundred dollars on $3000 or $4000 rebuild when it fails and you have rebuild again, that "savings" now becomes a huge cost!!

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 24, 2018, 08:48:59 PM
My issue is ..... after over 10,000 miles since the complete rebuild of this engine it is burning about 1 quart of oil approximately every 600 miles.  There is no smoke and no detectable blow-by... .just oil consumption.  The power is good.

Gnarls.
That oil consumption is strange, I'd be interested to see what that tear down would look like...

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 24, 2018, 08:50:19 PM
I have read 100s of posts in multiple Toyota sites over the last 20 years discussing simple tuning problems to major failures on early Toyota engine rebuilds.  The problems stem from the backyard DIYer that claims to do a rebuild in 2 hours to the purchased short blocks, long blocks, and turn-keys.  From all kinds sources and parts.

I believe it takes WAY more knowledge, experience, selection of the right parts and machine work starting with understanding the desired application for the engine, and the age and condition of the block.

I also believe that there are a few Toyota engine builders out there that take a great deal of pride in what they offer in parts and rebuilds, and have a very reputable history of providing very high quality products.

I would bet that a Stage 1 or Stage 2 engine from 22RE Performance will easily go as many miles or more miles as any stock factory engine.

When it comes to the necessary machine work, you'd better be VERY sure you know exactly what is being done and what ALL of the specs and measurements are, and what should be done to insure the very best rebuild (sonic tested and magnafluxed, rings and RA matched, for example) --- before you start the assembly.

With the poor quality of some after market parts for our early Toyota trucks, one has to be extremely careful to choose the best quality available.  The difference is cost typically ends up completely irrelevant to the outcome and result of the rebuild.  Saving a couple hundred dollars on $3000 or $4000 rebuild when it fails and you have rebuild again, that "savings" now becomes a huge cost!!

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.
Thanks for app the chiming in on my posts!
I couldn't agree more with what you've said, that's why I have been checking everything and making sure everything is done properly...


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 24, 2018, 09:02:37 PM
Here's where I am sitting currently with the build.

Today, I installed the crank. I plastigauged the journals, and everything is looking as it should for the oil clearance (see pic below)

LCE did a fantastic job of making it right, even if they weren't in the wrong. New bearings are perfect.

I made sure to get the large piece of plastigauge out that sits in the lower portion of the main bearings.
As far as the rest of the plastigauge goes, I didn't bother removing it from the bearings since it's oil soluble and dissolves with oil.

I initially had an issue getting the crank to turn after all the caps had been torqued down, I think this was due to the plastigauge. The crank would turn and stop, after a few rotations it spins freely without any hang ups. Again, I think this was the plastigauge. To be sure, I pulled all the caps off to verify that the plastigauge didn't gouge the bearing surfaces, everything looks great. Since Plastigauge is basically a wax filiment, it's hard to imagine it doing any harm.

Haven't checked crank thrust movement yet, I went to harbor freight and picked up a dial indicator and magnetic base so I could accurately see what the thrust is. That's for tomorrow.
Tomorrow I plan to install the pistons on to my Freshly machined rods. Which received new bushings set to the proper clearance.
I'm sure I'll send some of those wrist pin clips across the room, might have to put safety glasses on the dog...

I also anticipate that I'll be installing the timing components and cover. Now for the real question, would anyone recommended that I put any RTV if at all on the gaskets? When I did this before, I put a thin layer on both sides of the gasket for extra protection. Should I just do gaskets and nothing else? I've heard good things about Gasgacinch...

Along with that Freshly painted timing cover, goes my AISIN water and oil pump.
Purchased LCE's timing cover bolt set (with measurements so I put the right bolts in the right holes)
I also bought an intake manifold stud kit, figured for the price might as well prevent any possibility of the holes on the head getting stripped.

My rockers from 22RE performance should be here this week. Next week the head gets done.

Super excited to continue on with this!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 24, 2018, 09:03:15 PM
Some pictures. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180925/45c903e70f633e809eaef724da11e462.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180925/130fde490ab1fabbffe35a2dfd293611.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180925/7bde4840710e994fe595fc458eb2899d.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 25, 2018, 05:50:55 AM
It's nice to follow your progress and taking your time to do it the right way while you document it here.  :beerchug:

I realize there are different opinions on what is "right".  :gap:

I'm puzzled why you left the plastigauge on the crank rather than cleaning off?  :dunno:

Gnarls :spin:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 25, 2018, 04:24:23 PM
It's nice to follow your progress and taking your time to do it the right way while you document it here.  :beerchug:

I realize there are different opinions on what is "right".  :gap:

I'm puzzled why you left the plastigauge on the crank rather than cleaning off?  :dunno:

Gnarls :spin:
I cleaned the plastigauge off the crank the best I could, just not on the bearing journals. Plastigauge disintegrates with oil.

From Plastigauges website:

"Ideally you should remove the PLASTIGAUGE stripe with a clean oily cloth or industrial de-greasing solvent, but users may be assured that any PLASTIGAUGE left behind is oil soluble and cannot harm the engine in any way."

 



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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 25, 2018, 07:37:25 PM
Here's where I am sitting with the build.

Installed the Pistons onto the rods, and then into the block. I checked for thrust using my handy dandy Chineseium dial indicator.
About 0.003" of thrust. Perfect.

All oil clearances are consistent.

Additionally, it's a strange feeling putting pistons in the oven... Baked to perfection and marinaded with assembly lube. Gordon Ramsey would be proud.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180926/af6b65d486a2d28a928becea6ac81f88.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180926/6d0e401f5d44f21df43c46d4705b8f54.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180926/03fb7d0dc8b7020d63fc4cbd74b5f1a1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180926/34f378454ac5d49038b58e37a8c74f06.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180926/aaf8cb91f607d0fbfe533908b01466a0.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 25, 2018, 10:06:04 PM
Haha what room of the house are you building it in?  I like the kitchen personally :)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Sep 26, 2018, 08:21:56 PM
Haha what room of the house are you building it in?  I like the kitchen personally :)
Kitchen! The block resided in my upstairs room for awhile, talk about heavy. Engines make the best room Decor.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 01, 2018, 02:56:36 PM
Here's where I am at right now!

Over this weekend, I installed the timing components and the cover.

I measured all bolts from the LCE kit to ensure they went in the proper holes. I still had bolts that didn't fit, even following their directions. No biggie, I've got a box full of bolts from this motor.

This is a factory dual row motor, it's a 1981 (Early main bearing Tang type)

I put thread locker on every single bolt, and ensured they got torqued to the proper specs.

For the gaskets, I am using the OEM Toyota gaskets.
I smeared a thin layer of "The Right Stuff" on both sides of the gaskets, not too much so it plugs anything. I know, people don't like this brand. But, I've had nothing but great luck with it so it is what I will continue to use.

I was going to install the water pump the entire way, gaskets and everything. Except, I broke off a stud into the timing cover. Tried slotting it, didn't work.
So, I'll just drill out the hole to the next bolt size, which would be an M9.
This likely means I'll have to enlarge the hole on the water pump too, no biggie.
Honestly, I probably wouldn't even need that bolt. I doubt it would leak without it.
So, I'll drill and tap that before it goes into the truck.

Since I didn't install the water pump fully with the gaskets, I still torqued it down (Along with the oil pump) to make sure the gaskets and sealer got a good bond to the block. I'll remove these items when I install them for the last time.
I just wanted to make sure that any bolts for the water and oil pump that go into the block, got torqued down as well. So that the timing cover has even pressure on all the gasket surfaces.

Timing gear is zip tied to make sure it doesn't loose where it's at. Made sure the crank is at TDC on cylinder number 1.

Now, for some interesting wear. The oil pump drive spline has a severe wear pattern on the teeth, so much so that I'm worried it will skip under load.
I'll just replace it, no harm in doing that.

For both heater pipes, I wire wheeled and cleaned them up really nice.
Tons of pictures below!

Yep, those are Toyota branded Head bolts. Cheaper than LCE and theirs. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181001/9910db6c0adcf61a566db0212280f849.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181001/8cf89582381421c564085e7001c338ff.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181001/5117699c96eaacc1be6155eb54432e9f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181001/fecd85a2e4c2155782e8e485a82f13f6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181001/f50ec31e3e288750ce5dcf1fd1797e67.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181001/d0b6cf50c2ee4c270f22545c4d1137f1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181001/14fc732d56d937c3c399c58392ed1ae2.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 01, 2018, 04:07:05 PM
Alrighty, so I found out the tap/drill bit that I need for this repair.
Since the bolt that broke is a M8X1.25, I'm going to oversize it to a M9X1.25

I'll need a 7.80 MM drill bit, According to my tap and die chart, that and a M9X1.25 tap.

Unfortunately, M9 bolts and drill bits are hard to find. Everything will have to be ordered online.



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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 01, 2018, 05:09:24 PM
Why not use a threaded insert?
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 01, 2018, 07:15:35 PM
That's a good point. First, I'm going to try an easy out. If that doesn't work, I'll do the threaded insert.

Craftsman makes a set for $10 that i could use for this, just requires drilling a small hole.

If all else fails, I'll just not run that bolt. I'm not in a rush at all to get it done. Might as well try all the options first.
Why not use a threaded insert?

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 01, 2018, 07:45:02 PM
Or go to 3/8 which would be easy to find.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Oct 01, 2018, 08:06:54 PM
Or go to 3/8 which would be easy to find.

If you do that, the next owner of this engine is going to haunt you for the rest of your days because he had one odd-sized imperial bolt on your engine.

Or maybe I just have a thing about keeping metric things metric and imperial things imperial. Your call.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 01, 2018, 08:33:04 PM
I absolutely do too, that's why I'd rather keep it metric.

So far I've got a few choices.

- Drill out and Helicoil
- Drill out and oversize to a M9X1.25 (rare to find)
- Try an easy out
- Do nothing.

Might as well try all 4! I don't wanna get a new timing cover, this is the factory one decked to this block. Plus it's got that nice little dime sized TEQ logo on it.
If you do that, the next owner of this engine is going to haunt you for the rest of your days because he had one odd-sized imperial bolt on your engine.

Or maybe I just have a thing about keeping metric things metric and imperial things imperial. Your call.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Oct 01, 2018, 08:46:43 PM
For what it's worth, I had good luck with a heli-coil on the exhaust stud hole I stripped out on my 22R.

A crazy idea is to drill a hole into the stud and loctite in a piece of metal that you can get a grip on. Never tried it myself, but it just might work. Maybe
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 01, 2018, 09:04:07 PM
Might not be enough metal for threaded insert...……..   There is one that's M8*1.25 by 7/16x14 which might work.

Mcmaster.com doesn't even have M9 screws.

Helicoil's are smaller than threaded inserts, so should be enough metal, but very expensive.
If you do helicoil,  I'd change that location to a stud.............
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 01, 2018, 09:08:24 PM
Might not be enough metal for threaded insert...……..   There is one that's M8*1.25 by 7/16x14 which might work.

Mcmaster.com doesn't even have M9 screws.

Helicoil's are smaller than threaded inserts, so should be enough metal, but very expensive.
If you do helicoil,  I'd change that location to a stud.............
Well, it was a stud. I'm basically open to any ideas at this point, I figured I'll try the easy out option first.
There should be enough metal. I'm just worried about it getting into the coolant passage if I use anything longer than like a 1/4 inch.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 01, 2018, 09:21:14 PM
I did this with a broken exhaust stud.....

You need a good 1/8" Dremel size carbide bit, and good drill bit.   Drill bit big enough so carbide bit fits in hole.

Drill starter hole in stud remains.

Now section the remains with carbide bit and remove remains..............




Threads in hole should still be good.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 01, 2018, 09:26:10 PM
Love this idea, I thought of something similar earlier but wasn't sure.
I'm gonna try a left handed drill bit first.
I did this with a broken exhaust stud.....

You need a good 1/8" Dremel size carbide bit, and good drill bit.   Drill bit big enough so carbide bit fits in hole.

Drill starter hole in stud remains.

Now section the remains with carbide bit and remove remains..............




Threads in hole should still be good.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Oct 01, 2018, 09:34:06 PM
Go full science project on it. Drill a hole for m6, tap it to reverse thread m6, and put a reverse thread bolt in it. Tighten till the m8 comes out :)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 01, 2018, 09:35:17 PM
This actually isn't a bad idea, that until the M6 breaks. That's a super small bolt! But, I will definitely entertain this too.
Go full science project on it. Drill a hole for m6, tap it to reverse thread m6, and put a reverse thread bolt in it. Tighten till the m8 comes out :)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 02, 2018, 07:07:31 AM
Perhaps I'm missing something about your rebuild......???

Timing covers not real cheap, but.....

You may spend more $$ on whatever you buy to get the broken stud out, 10 times more time messing with it.  And in the end it may not be successful.

???????

Am I off base with my thinking? :dunno:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 02, 2018, 08:13:28 AM
because, my timing cover was decked with the block. To a number that I can't remember. The machine shop won't deck the cover by itself as far as I know. It's not that important of a bolt, say it were something else I would.
Perhaps I'm missing something about your rebuild......???

Timing covers not real cheap, but.....

You may spend more $$ on whatever you buy to get the broken stud out, 10 times more time messing with it.  And in the end it may not be successful.

???????

Am I off base with my thinking? :dunno:

Gnarls.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Oct 02, 2018, 08:56:59 AM
It's quite difficult to have the timing cover decked without the block. I experienced that with my block, which the machinist didn't want to deck, and then decided to deck it without giving me time to run the timing cover down. I was kinda ticked off when he told me afterwards he wouldn't be able to deck the timing cover without redecking the block.

H8PVMNT took a file and milled it himself, i went to some guys house on the outskirts of town, who happened to have a race shop with a full blown machine shop in his garage. I bolted it up to the block beforehand to get the measurement, and he milled it on a vertical mill to my specs :thumbs:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 02, 2018, 09:43:08 AM
This is why I don't wanna do a new cover, I'd have to disassemble everything just to get the block re-decked.

If rather spend $30-$40 to get the bolt out, then spend a bunch more on a timing cover.
If it was a more important bolt, say the top oil pump bolt, I would. But since it's just this one tiny stud, I'll try everything before I have to get a new cover.
It's quite difficult to have the timing cover decked without the block. I experienced that with my block, which the machinist didn't want to deck, and then decided to deck it without giving me time to run the timing cover down. I was kinda ticked off when he told me afterwards he wouldn't be able to deck the timing cover without redecking the block.

H8PVMNT took a file and milled it himself, i went to some guys house on the outskirts of town, who happened to have a race shop with a full blown machine shop in his garage. I bolted it up to the block beforehand to get the measurement, and he milled it on a vertical mill to my specs :thumbs:

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 02, 2018, 12:13:08 PM
Dropped the cylinder head off at the machine shop today, for cleaning/surfacing and a valve job is $250. I believe that included checking for cracks as well.
They are pretty busy, so I was told the end of next week. Not a big deal.

They had a "New" 22R cylinder head for sale, since it isn't a Toyota casting I don't want anything to do with it. It's one of those parts store crap brands.

Any bent valves will be replaced as well. Hopefully there isn't any! Forgot to drop the valve seals off as well, looks like I'll be doing that tomorrow.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Oct 02, 2018, 02:33:19 PM
This is why I don't wanna do a new cover, I'd have to disassemble everything just to get the block re-decked.

That's what I'm saying. It's a waste of time, money, and valuable deck height have to re deck the block. If you messed up the timing cover *somehow*, and you needed to buy a new cover, the way I did it was bolt the unmilled cover to the block, measure height difference with step gauge or similar, and find a competent machinist to mill it.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 02, 2018, 08:06:24 PM
Okay I get it.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 03, 2018, 08:16:51 AM
Dropped the cylinder head off at the machine shop today, for cleaning/surfacing and a valve job is $250. I believe that included checking for cracks as well.


Hey T,

Glad to see your have your project moving forward.

$250 is a good price.  The number 3 chamber, on stock heads, is where the common crack from the water port to the chamber appears.  Any good head shop should look for that.

What valves, valve seals, guides, seats, are they going to install?  Do they use a specific brand?

Also, I’m curious what valve/seat angles they use and recommend?

I'd like to know if they deck the head at all, and if they need to, how much did they have to deck it?  If they remove anything from the deck, they should measure to know whether or not it may have been previously decked.  If so, the locating pins will need to be measured (or ground) to make sure their height will not prevent the head from seating down onto the head gasket and block deck. But.... you probably already know this.  :gap:

If you have not already, I recommend that you (or the shop) check the exhaust studs.  It’s common for older heads to have studs that will spin inside the head.  To help prevent this, I highly recommend NOT using the factory clamp-style nuts.

Gnarls.  :gap:

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 03, 2018, 09:28:14 AM
As far as valves, I have no idea what brand they will install IF one is bad.
For valve guides, not sure either. They are only going to replace the guides if it needs it.
For valve seals, I have the seals that came in my Toyota kit. I bought the complete Toyota gasket kit when I use to work for a Toyota dealer last year.

For the exhaust studs, I bought LC Engineerings kit. I also bought their kit for the intake studs too. Every single bolt on this motor is getting replaced. With the exception of the mains and rod nuts.

My EGR cooler plate is basically completely plugged, I may buy a new one from Toyota Parts Deal since they are cheaper than anyone else I can find.
They have the new oil pump drive spline I need, for like $30. That's half what LCE wants!
Pays to shop around, that's for sure.
Hey T,

Glad to see your have your project moving forward.

$250 is a good price.  The number 3 chamber, on stock heads, is where the common crack from the water port to the chamber appears.  Any good head shop should look for that.

What valves, valve seals, guides, seats, are they going to install?  Do they use a specific brand?

Also, I’m curious what valve/seat angles they use and recommend?

I'd like to know if they deck the head at all, and if they need to, how much did they have to deck it?  If they remove anything from the deck, they should measure to know whether or not it may have been previously decked.  If so, the locating pins will need to be measured (or ground) to make sure their height will not prevent the head from seating down onto the head gasket and block deck. But.... you probably already know this.  :gap:

If you have not already, I recommend that you (or the shop) check the exhaust studs.  It’s common for older heads to have studs that will spin inside the head.  To help prevent this, I highly recommend NOT using the factory clamp-style nuts.

Gnarls.  :gap:

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 03, 2018, 09:29:38 AM
I just dropped the head off yesterday, so if anything is to be wrong I won't hear about it until next week.
I am Budgeting $350 for the head, that way if they need to replace valves I won't come up short.
I am dropping the valve seals off today (forgot to yesterday) and I'll ask what brand of valves they use.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 12, 2018, 06:37:24 PM
Picked the head up today, ended up paying only $225!

They did a complete valve job, as well as a surfacing/clean/check

They didn't replace ANY valves, they are the original Toyota valves. It only needed a seat grind.
As far as the surface, they took .008 - .009" off. The markers on the bottom indicate that it's most likely it's first surfacing.

Bad news, I tried removing the intake manifold studs and one broke, I have plenty of room to weld a nut.
Before I weld anything, I'm soaking it in PB blaster and I'll hit it with some heat and pliers tomorrow.
They also cleaned the EGR cooler plate.

They also punched my name into the front.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/9786dee974b3efcf55c79683e1c84a20.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/ab64a7b6dfeea32852242b12784a1895.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/ae36053d7fd3eeb472d42954a17f4d37.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/7bf6138f7ec1347d54429e05297fdd52.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/d54b9a16bdc862f2ad85fe7ee5249868.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 13, 2018, 06:21:04 PM
So I seem a bit confused about the timing chain, I installed the bright links backwards. The FSM wants the double bright ones up top on the cam marks. I put it on the bottom with the crank marks ( mark pointed down, bright link down). The Woodruff key is pointed up, and the #1 cyl is on TDC. The cam gear marks line up, does this mean it doesn't matter if it's backwards? I mean, if everything lines up properly the bright links don't matter. After all, they change position on the marks every rotation.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: EASYRYDERDANGER on Oct 18, 2018, 08:14:31 PM
You should be fine, I just confirmed on a chain of mine that from shiny link to shiny link it's the same distance regardless, so timing will not be affected
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 19, 2018, 03:34:45 PM
You should be fine, I just confirmed on a chain of mine that from shiny link to shiny link it's the same distance regardless, so timing will not be affected
Awesome, thank you for your meaningful response.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 19, 2018, 03:43:24 PM
Ordered a ton of parts.

From 22RE performance I bought a stock re-ground cam, fuel pump drive, and a new oil pump drive spline.
From LCE, I bought a complete silicone vaccum hose kit, and a new valve cover to intake breather hose.
I also bought the EGR block plates, and the crossover block plate.
I bought some new O-rings for the distributor and oil pump drive.
And lastly, a new balancer pulley bolt.
This thing is gonna look super nice when it's done.

To remove the broken timing cover bolt, I bought a Heli-coil kit. I'll drill the stud out and thread one of those in. Since it's not a high torque bolt I have no issue using a thread repair set.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 22, 2018, 07:43:04 PM
Much accomplished today on the build.

As some suggested, I used a Heli-coil to fix the broken water pump stud. It Was super easy!

I also set the cylinder head on the block to see how the end product Will look. Man, I can't wait!

This week I am having someone help with the broken intake studs, the plan is to weld a nut on.
We're gonna use Tig as it's a good process for extracting broken studs/bolts, since you can heat the stud up really hot and add a ton of filler.
I'd do it myself but I'm only a first year welding student, and we can't bring our own stuff to work on unfortunately.

I'm thinking of painting the head as well, as it would provide a really uniform look. Plus, it'd be child's play to spot a leak!

All my stuff from LCE and 22RE performance arrived. Re-ground stock cam, and vaccum lines are among the items ordered.
I'm also super excited to completely de-smog this motor, I'll be starting with a complete EGR delete. Cooler plate and everything.
I've heard these trucks run best completely de-smogged with a Weber, so that's the end goal.

Question, can one completely de-smog a motor running the stock AISIN carb and have it run right? Can't go wrong with a Weber, but I've also heard the stock carbs are great too. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181023/fe905a5d6719052720304ad5b5be6ef7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181023/de3d35f29f6783e9b991306815804540.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181023/53aeefa10e81c9841efe86cc4406972c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 31, 2018, 09:43:46 AM
Here's how she sits. Tomorrow I'm ordering the clutch kit. Friday the old motor comes out.
Head torqued down, rocker assembly rebuilt with resurfaced rockers. Fresh ground cam. Just needs new valve adjusters and she's golden.
I painted the pan as well, in the same color as everything else. I wanted to be able to quickly see and spot leaks, if it ever does.

I've gotta drill out an exhaust manifold bolt hole, the threads stripped. I'll slap a Heli-coil in there and be done with it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181031/8ebc3f6b3ca5b1fc8cc2bc5387693dbb.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Oct 31, 2018, 09:44:06 AM
Here's how she sits. Tomorrow I'm ordering the clutch kit. Friday the old motor comes out.
Head torqued down, rocker assembly rebuilt with resurfaced rockers. Fresh ground cam. Just needs new valve adjusters and she's golden.
I painted the pan as well, in the same color as everything else. I wanted to be able to quickly see and spot leaks, if it ever does.

I've gotta drill out an exhaust manifold bolt hole, the threads stripped. I'll slap a Heli-coil in there and be done with it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181031/8ebc3f6b3ca5b1fc8cc2bc5387693dbb.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: EASYRYDERDANGER on Oct 31, 2018, 06:32:35 PM
Looks good!  I can tell you are making an angry engine with that food dish empty!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Nov 01, 2018, 05:03:40 AM
I sure hope you are ordering a Marlin 1200 clutch.
https://www.marlincrawler.com/clutch/heavy-duty/clutch-hilux/1981-88-4cyl-1200-lb-clutch-kit
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 01, 2018, 07:39:49 AM
Looks good!  I can tell you are making an angry engine with that food dish empty!

That's the dog's dish!  Haahahahahhaha..

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 01, 2018, 07:45:40 AM
Here's how she sits.


I would paint the exhaust manifold super hi-temp orange.  I would NOT use those self-locking nuts on the head studs.  I like the gray color of the block engine… way better to see any potential leaks.  I screwed up and painted my block black…. Dumb.

Looking good!!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 01, 2018, 09:59:19 AM
Thanks! I will not be painting the manifold, it never works well. I'm using the locking nuts that came with with my stud kit from LCE, they are not the stock style. Just flange nuts.
I would paint the exhaust manifold super hi-temp orange.  I would NOT use those self-locking nuts on the head studs.  I like the gray color of the block engine… way better to see any potential leaks.  I screwed up and painted my block black…. Dumb.

Looking good!!!

Gnarls.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 01, 2018, 10:00:18 AM
I sure hope you are ordering a Marlin 1200 clutch.
https://www.marlincrawler.com/clutch/heavy-duty/clutch-hilux/1981-88-4cyl-1200-lb-clutch-kit
Little late! Ordered th LCE street clutch kit today, it's like $110. I believe Exedy (Is that the brand?) Makes the kit. I'm prepared to eat crow if it's a trash kit, but I doubt it.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 01, 2018, 12:23:31 PM
Ha, that's the dogs waterdish.
My Father actually makes the food for the dog at Home every other weekend, buys the meat and all the barley and vegetables. Eats better than I do!
Looks good!  I can tell you are making an angry engine with that food dish empty!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 01, 2018, 05:56:25 PM
Looks like I'll be Helicoiling (Is that even a word?) One or two of the intake Mandi stud holes, the two studs that I had to extract with a welded nut messed up the holes. I figure a Heli-coil won't be a bad fix, if anything it'll be stronger?
The price on the Heli-Coil kits kinda baffles me, the prices are extreme. $25 for the M8 and then $40-60 for the M10? Come on...

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Nov 01, 2018, 06:06:12 PM
Use threaded inserts, they're cheaper than helicoils (and stronger too).
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 01, 2018, 09:50:54 PM
I should've bought them. Oh well, let's see if I can make the Heli-Coil work.
Use threaded inserts, they're cheaper than helicoils (and stronger too).

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 04, 2018, 11:45:04 AM
So I got the engine pulled this weekend, what an easy yet satisfying task!

I tore the motor down, removed the carb and intake. Everything came off.

Now I have an empty engine bay, and my plans on Saturday whats next.
Clutch comes this week, I still need to order several small items from LCE.

I've decided that I'm gonna de-smog this motor completely. I've already installed the EGR cooler plate and I'll be completely blocking the EGR off. I'm also going to block off the air injection systems.
All emissions and vaccum lines are going to come off, with the exception of a few things.
I'm keeping the BVSV in the center of the head, this works with the AAP and choke and without it it won't run correctly cold. The PCV will remain as well as the front breather.
I'm also going to keep the hose going to the distributor, as it's also important. All other vaccum switches and what not, are going to go.
It's important to note that the truck doesn't have a HAC, so those will already be blocked.
I debated running a Weber, but since I've heard they are a pain to get to run correctly, I figured I'd run the stock carb.
My 85' XtraCab also has no HAC, and runs well at sea level all the way to 12,000 + feet in Colorado. Never ceases to start.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181104/68f83391eb7a0ebd310b3d76ebf3346e.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 04, 2018, 05:11:33 PM
To ensure that the de-smogging that I'll do will work, I did it to my XtraCab today. I'm only running hoses for the distributor and BVSV. I removed the front Charcoal canister as well. Runs great! Seems to start better as well. So after this test, I can confirm that the carb will run the way I want it to. Awesome!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 05, 2018, 04:01:29 AM
Hey T,

I appreciate and enjoy your thread and posting up all your updates, photos, and detailing your candid comments on experiences as you complete the rebuild.  Great job!  :thumbs:

I am curious about how your rebuild runs.  I’d love to see the compression numbers right before you fire the engine for the break in.  Then see them again after a couple hundred miles on your break-in.

What octane gas do you plan to burn?

What is your elevation?

Thanks,

Gnarls. :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 06, 2018, 04:30:16 PM
Thanks, I appreciate it. Elevation, right around 4800 feet. I plan to run 87 it higher, as my owners manual recommends.
Hey T,

I appreciate and enjoy your thread and posting up all your updates, photos, and detailing your candid comments on experiences as you complete the rebuild.  Great job!  :thumbs:

I am curious about how your rebuild runs.  I’d love to see the compression numbers right before you fire the engine for the break in.  Then see them again after a couple hundred miles on your break-in.

What octane gas do you plan to burn?

What is your elevation?

Thanks,

Gnarls. :gap:

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 06, 2018, 04:42:04 PM
I've got some questions about the intake manifold.

First one is surfacing, how should I go about cleaning the gasket surfaces? The main surfaces I'm concerned about are the EGR gasket and the manifold surface itself.
I went after it with some Acetone and a Scotch bright pad, and I wasn't super successful.
I know the dangers of abrasive materials on aluminum, so I won't use anything insane.
I called a machine shop and they quoted me $80 to resurface it. Would this be considered worth it?

My other option is to get a sanding block and some sand paper and surface it myself. I don't however have a precision square, so I can't check my work. I've heard of people using a pane of glass to check straightness?

Also, I can't get the damn temp sensor out. It is a 17MM, but it just rounded off. It is brass so I can't complain too much.
I've attacked it with vice grips and it's just destroyed it, what's the best way to get this out?

The only vaccum switch on this motor that I'm running will be the center BVSV for the AAP and choke. I am thinking about moving it to a hole by the thermostat, since it's the same thread size. There isn't an issue with this since it's just a vaccum switch.




(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181107/7085884c13b0417614d25f2887c4f61c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181107/6b6ab6dc541695354364b0517487abc0.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Nov 06, 2018, 08:50:21 PM
You will probably have to heat up the temp sender and the general area with a torch pretty flippin' hot.  Then bite on it HARD with the vise grips and say a quick prayer before you twist on it. 

If you want the gasket surface cleaner I would use some 400 grit on a piece of 2x4 or other flat block or surface. Don't take much, just enough to get it clean. Never had a problem with that method.  Also I like to use the copper adhesive spray on the intake gaskets.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 07, 2018, 05:56:31 AM
You will probably have to heat up the temp sender and the general area with a torch pretty flippin' hot.  Then bite on it HARD with the vise grips and say a quick prayer before you twist on it. 

If you want the gasket surface cleaner I would use some 400 grit on a piece of 2x4 or other flat block or surface. Don't take much, just enough to get it clean. Never had a problem with that method.  Also I like to use the copper adhesive spray on the intake gaskets.

I would be VERY careful applying heat to the manifold.  I would use a propane torch and try heating the manifold slightly.

I cleaned up my intake manifold mounting surface with some 320 grit sandpaper on a flat block of wood.  I only sanded it to just clean up the mounting surface.  I did NOT use any sealer on the intake manifold gasket.  I don't know if that is the best way or the wrong way to install the manifold on the head?

Metal T-square.... great for looking at flat surfaces:

https://www.zoro.com/stanley-carpenters-square-steel-24-x-16-in-45-500/i/G6104743/feature-product?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1pGiubfC3gIVC39-Ch2jlQwqEAQYBSABEgIcN_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Here's an interesting demonstration on cleaning and resurfacing the manifold mounting surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw9c0ydogqs

Of course, I don't have big band sander!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 07, 2018, 06:55:43 AM
I would be VERY careful applying heat to the manifold.  I would use a propane torch and try heating the manifold slightly.

I cleaned up my intake manifold mounting surface with some 320 grit sandpaper on a flat block of wood.  I only sanded it to just clean up the mounting surface.  I did NOT use any sealer on the intake manifold gasket.  I don't know if that is the best way or the wrong way to install the manifold on the head?

Metal T-square.... great for looking at flat surfaces:

https://www.zoro.com/stanley-carpenters-square-steel-24-x-16-in-45-500/i/G6104743/feature-product?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1pGiubfC3gIVC39-Ch2jlQwqEAQYBSABEgIcN_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Here's an interesting demonstration on cleaning and resurfacing the manifold mounting surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw9c0ydogqs

Of course, I don't have big band sander!!

Gnarls.
Slight heat, gotcha. Last thing I wanna do is braze the brass to the aluminum.
380-400 grit sounds great.
I have a metal combination square that I use for welding, I'll have to give it a shot. I was worried about accuracy so that's why I never used it.

Sanding sounds like a good idea, I was worried about how straight it'd be but if I do it right I should get a good surface.




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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 10, 2018, 04:32:23 PM
Alright, so I definitely haven't made any progress on the intake. I've done everything I can with the temp sender, and it has gotten to this.
There's nothing left to grab with vice grips. I've heated it up super hot, tried punches... Everything.
Not like I can drill it out since it's a Toyota only thread pitch if I'm not mistaken. Should I get ANOTHER intake?

As far as the surfacing, I'm gonna by a small sized pane of glass and use some spray adhesive to glue some sandpaper to the glass. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181111/c06ffbab6f01f90b7f223ac9142cc34b.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: EASYRYDERDANGER on Nov 10, 2018, 06:40:07 PM
Or just use some wd40 and a sand block with 400 grit
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: joeyf on Nov 10, 2018, 06:50:49 PM
Should I get ANOTHER intake?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181111/c06ffbab6f01f90b7f223ac9142cc34b.jpg)

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First try drilling it out a size smaller than the thread. There is so little left that it should loosen up enough to be able to back out with a easy out. If not, it's brass and you can break it apart. I have done this a few times on random bolts and has been able to save the hole.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Nov 10, 2018, 09:26:26 PM
Carbide bit (1/8" Dremel size) and section it into pieces.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 29, 2018, 03:59:16 PM
Thought I'd give an update on the build.

I ended up purchasing another intake from a member here, he removed all the plugs and broken bolts leaving me with a blank intake essentially.

Today I surfaced it and cleaned it. For surfacing, I bought a $20 granite slab and used a spray Adhesive to attach some 320 (and later 400) grit sandpaper. I figured the straightest large surface I can get my hands on is either granite, or glass. I used a flat machined straight edge to test it's flatness, no rocking at all.

This worked flawlessly! I used a sharpie to draw over the gasket surface so as I sand it, I can see the low spots. This also worked fantastic! I am left with a clean ready to install intake. I am not using silicone on the inake gasket, as it won't need it.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/d56c38a5c5db77690e0fe7970a33eb9a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/c16191ef22a64fe6c9ad3483de791af8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/f461aa2b25e1a03d7245345581d04bcf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/a48d8c88ebc845dbbcd4eab0e9173172.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/a5b9a7af8e1f7fcec6a6628501e3e63a.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Nov 30, 2018, 06:06:27 PM
Friday update.

Today I bolted on the intake, I used new hardware from LCE. Had to Helicoil 3 bolt holes. All torqued down fine.
I cleaned the intake very well before I bolted in on. I bolted the center head water plate on, this is for the heater core pipe. I am also using this for the top BVSV for the carb so it functions in the cold properly.
I need to get a new O-ring for the heater pipe,ni bought a kit from harbor Freight that has metric O-rings. I don't trust the O-ring in the kit because it's not an exact fit. I can just buy one online, which I still need to buy some stuff from LCE. They sell it.

I ran the coolant line from the bottom of the intake to the timing cover. This is often blocked off, but I don't want to interrupt coolant flow. I put a 3/8npt to 3/8npt female adapter in the hole, and put the stock hose adapter in. This points it differently so it doesn't have a bend like the stock hose. Looks much cleaner.

I bolted on both EGR block plates, the one on the intake got silicone sealant as I didn't have a gasket. No fluids, just holds vaccum. Should be no issue.


Engine is basically ready to go in, I have a small list left.

- Transmission input seal/gasket
- rear main install
- clutch install/flywheel
- carb install
- pick-up tube install

Very few things, I'm excited to get it finished.
It won't get installed until the spring, as the weather isn't very inviting. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181201/fc232749e85c3bff9c6953f494dbf2ca.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181201/6c4c70f33193e575e3500b016e8e1185.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181201/5f377e6bb6b312380a3e5a4ce9da279c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 01, 2018, 07:53:45 AM
Friday update.


Engine is basically ready to go in, I have a small list left.

- Transmission input seal/gasket
- rear main install
- clutch install/flywheel
- carb install
- pick-up tube install


Transmission input seal/gasket - I would only install Toyota factory seal and use this on seal cover bolts: https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-thread-sealant-with-ptfe/

and this one for the gasket:  https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/ultra-series-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-grey-rigid-high-torque-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-2/

- rear main install - Toyota factory only.

TIP:  If you remove the input shaft seal housing with gear oil in the transmission, you should tilt the tranny back about 45 degrees so the gear oil doesn't drain out of the bottom bolt holes.  If you use the bolt sealer, let it cure over night or 24 hours before letting the gear lube contact the bolts - keep it tilted.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.


Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 01, 2018, 08:13:19 AM
Yep, the seal I am using is Toyota. The gasket is as well, and it's actually discontinued. They don't make it anymore. But, the Jeep AX5 is the brother to the G52 and the bearing retainer on it is the same for the Toyota. I bought my gasket from Toyota parts dealer.com, they have everything. Including brand new frames for 80's trucks. Yeah, they have everything.

I am using permatex thread sealant, that's what I used on my XtraCab. For silicone, I may put some on.  Since I have a new gasket I may just clean the surfaces with Acetone and put it together without silicone

Transmission is getting new synthetic gear oil. Anyone recommend a good brand? I know redline MT-90 is the cats Pajamas, but I can't fork out that much right now.

Rear main is also a Toyota seal. Had a machine shop install the seal saver with their tool. Using silicone on the rear main seal holder with the gasket.
Transmission input seal/gasket - I would only install Toyota factory seal and use this on seal cover bolts: https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-thread-sealant-with-ptfe/

and this one for the gasket:  https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/ultra-series-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-grey-rigid-high-torque-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-2/

- rear main install - Toyota factory only.

TIP:  If you remove the input shaft seal housing with gear oil in the transmission, you should tilt the tranny back about 45 degrees so the gear oil doesn't drain out of the bottom bolt holes.  If you use the bolt sealer, let it cure over night or 24 hours before letting the gear lube contact the bolts - keep it tilted.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.


Gnarls.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 01, 2018, 03:45:58 PM
I prefer hylomar for sealing the tranny front seal gasket.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 02, 2018, 03:50:56 AM
I prefer hylomar for sealing the tranny front seal gasket.



I don't have any experience with Hylomar, but like most sealants, it usually comes down to a matter of opinion, and you can find lots of discussions on empirical opinions.  Since Marlin recommends Permatex Ultra Grey

https://www.marlincrawler.com/hardware-tools/chemicals/silicone-ultra-gray

and he has put together more Toyota cases than most anyone around, I just defer to his experience.  :thumbs:

Hylomar is a well-known mil-spec product, so it's good stuff, and of course, they are very proud of it... $$$$$$$!!  :yikes:

Gnarls. :blah:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 02, 2018, 04:01:39 AM

Transmission is getting new synthetic gear oil. Anyone recommend a good brand? I know redline MT-90 is the cats Pajamas, but I can't fork out that much right now.


I've tried a number of oils and gear lubes.  In the VW transaxles in my sand rails, I ran 40w motor oil.  The buggy only weighed 900 lbs.

I tried 20w-50 Castrol Synthetic (recommended by my tranny shop) in my 85 5-speed back when I was getting some odd gear noise.  I ran Redline MTL - Redline recommended it - and really noticed a difference in shifts on my newly rebuilt W56B 5-speed.  No doubt it is good stuff!

This time I used Mobil 1 :

https://mobiloil.com/en/gear-lubricants/mobil-1-synthetic-gear-lube-ls

I can really tell the difference in the shifts from just the non-synthetic 75-90 I was running.  Mobil 1 is noticeably smoother and less notchy, especially on down shifts.  The price per quart is way less the Redline, and it's readily available almost everywhere.  I'd bet that I could not tell the difference between Redline and Mobil 1, and I doubt that my tranny will either.  :gap:

Gnarls. :blah:

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 02, 2018, 04:24:24 AM
Last time I bought hylomar, the cheapest I could find it (believe it or not) was at the Harley Davidson dealer...……..

Permatex used to sell it, but quit years and years ago.    Permatex started making a hylomar equivalent which I've bought to try on less critical spots (saving my remaining hylomar for those spots like the gasket on the tranny input shaft)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Dec 02, 2018, 02:38:22 PM
Toyota FIPG.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 02, 2018, 10:41:30 PM
Okay cost the gasket with something. That's what I did last time, worked with no gasket.

If the synthetic gear oil runs that good, I'm gonna pick some up here for my daily. But my concern is the GL-4 vs GL-5 grades. Toyota wants GL-4 since it doesn't ruin brass syncros. The only GL-4 I know is redline.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 03, 2018, 03:35:42 AM
But my concern is the GL-4 vs GL-5 grades. Toyota wants GL-4 since it doesn't ruin brass syncros. The only GL-4 I know is redline.


You may know something about the chemical differences between GL4 and GL5.  You may also know exactly what the specific metallurgy and alloy formulation is on the synchros that are in your transmission.   :dunno:

I do know that my transmission shop would only install Toyota factory synchos in my 5-speed transmissions, and told me that some aftermarket synchros have incorrect alloy that cause a problem with proper co-efficient of friction and lock-up.  They didn’t mention anything about gear oil compatibility.

When I spoke to Redline technical department back in 1995, Redline did recommend MTL which is GL-4 for my transmission.  MT-90 is also GL-4.

I believe there is sufficient information now that the early formulations of gear oils with reactive sulfurs, that caused a problem with corrosion in copper alloys, are no longer used in modern gear oil formulations.

I don’t believe ExxonMobil, the largest USA oil producer, is going to sell a synthetic gear oil that will destroy synchronizer gears in a massive number vehicles with manual transmissions still being driven world-wide.

Here’s an interesting short video on the comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHwULF-EdtQ

To sleep well at night, using a high quality GL-4 oil in our transmissions won’t hurt.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.  :gap:

Gnarls.  :blah:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Dec 06, 2018, 06:51:40 PM
I've been using the Sta-Lube GL4 the past few times.  My perception is better shifting than GL5, although I had used GL5 for years and never had any real problems.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 08, 2018, 07:53:41 PM
You may know something about the chemical differences between GL4 and GL5.  You may also know exactly what the specific metallurgy and alloy formulation is on the synchros that are in your transmission.   :dunno:

I do know that my transmission shop would only install Toyota factory synchos in my 5-speed transmissions, and told me that some aftermarket synchros have incorrect alloy that cause a problem with proper co-efficient of friction and lock-up.  They didn’t mention anything about gear oil compatibility.

When I spoke to Redline technical department back in 1995, Redline did recommend MTL which is GL-4 for my transmission.  MT-90 is also GL-4.

I believe there is sufficient information now that the early formulations of gear oils with reactive sulfurs, that caused a problem with corrosion in copper alloys, are no longer used in modern gear oil formulations.

I don’t believe ExxonMobil, the largest USA oil producer, is going to sell a synthetic gear oil that will destroy synchronizer gears in a massive number vehicles with manual transmissions still being driven world-wide.

Here’s an interesting short video on the comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHwULF-EdtQ

To sleep well at night, using a high quality GL-4 oil in our transmissions won’t hurt.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.  :gap:

Gnarls.  :blah:
Thank you for this information, I think I'll try and track down some GL4. Special order from parts store won't be bad.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 11, 2018, 12:27:52 PM
Hey everyone, today I found out that we lost a fellow Toyota owner.
He was the one who sent me this intake manifold on my truck. His name was Connor Gillmore, didn't know him personally but I have a mission to dedicate this build to him.
Rest in peace the gr8pumpkin!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: OVRAROK on Dec 11, 2018, 12:42:16 PM
Sorry to hear...
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 11, 2018, 01:49:17 PM
Sorry to hear...

Yeah... losing a fellow Toyota wheeler is always a sad day.  :down:

Gnarls.  :sad2:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Dec 11, 2018, 03:27:41 PM
What the? I assume you're talking about Congill77 because he had that orange 4runner called the gr8punkin.

That's really sad to hear. please please please wear your seat belts people.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Dec 12, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
Hey everyone, today I found out that we lost a fellow Toyota owner.
He was the one who sent me this intake manifold on my truck. His name was Connor Gillmore, didn't know him personally but I have a mission to dedicate this build to him.
Rest in peace the gr8pumpkin!

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:sad2: More info required
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 12, 2018, 10:20:21 AM
What the? I assume you're talking about Congill77 because he had that orange 4runner called the gr8punkin.

That's really sad to hear. please please please wear your seat belts people.
That would be him. He had finished the engine install on his 92' MR2. Local news from Greeley said he would've survived had he worn his belt. I think he flipped it? Sad either way.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Dec 12, 2018, 11:16:07 AM
:sad2: More info required

https://www.greeleytribune.com/news/one-injured-after-car-rolls-into-tree-in-west-greeley/

https://www.greeleytribune.com/news/greeley-22-year-old-who-died-after-suffering-injuries-in-crash-identified/

https://www.greeleytribune.com/news/obituary-for-connor-gillmore/

Those worked for me yesterday but now they seem to be hidden behind a registration wall. maybe it's cause I visited them more than once?

Very sad news.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 12, 2018, 01:24:55 PM
Well, he's wrenching in a better place.
The amount of support and love that I've seen from our community for him has given me hope for humanity.
https://www.greeleytribune.com/news/one-injured-after-car-rolls-into-tree-in-west-greeley/

https://www.greeleytribune.com/news/greeley-22-year-old-who-died-after-suffering-injuries-in-crash-identified/

https://www.greeleytribune.com/news/obituary-for-connor-gillmore/

Those worked for me yesterday but now they seem to be hidden behind a registration wall. maybe it's cause I visited them more than once?

Very sad news.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 20, 2018, 08:24:00 PM
Hey everyone, great news! I am installing the engine tomorrow.
I have everything needed, so why not? Getting the engine out of my house was sure a struggle.
Even with my 7'0" tall friend who is very buff we struggled but got it up 4 stair steps. Due to how my steps are, and that it
was in a darn house, a hoist couldn't be used.
Tomorrow I have to bolt the rear main seal holder and seal on, and do the flywheel and clutch.
Flywheel was machined and looks great! I will need to find a way to secure the front pulley with a ratchet
while I torque the flywheel bolts on. I have Freshly painted the engine mounts and engine accessory brackets so it looks good.

 I have a question regarding packing the oil pump.
How should I prime it? I have seen people have issues with using grease. I filled it up with red assembly lube
and bolted it on. So it is definitely lubed up good. Would one suggest petroleum jelly?
I am going to convert a grease gun to shoot pressurized oil, that I will adapt to the oil pressure port to prime the system and get oil in every gallery. This alone will really help on the first start up.

For break-in I am doing 5 quarts of Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In Motor Oil as it is what 22RE performance recommends.
I will break the cam in on this 5 quarts, and I will drain the oil and change the filter and put 5 more quarts of the same stuff in for the first 400 miles.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Dec 21, 2018, 03:41:47 AM
For the oil pump, I have always just put a little assembly lube and a couple drips of oil on the moving parts when I assemble and then crank the engine over for about 20 seconds with the coil wire unhooked to get the oil primed and up into things.  Never had any issues with this method.

 
If you can force oil into the galleys it sure wouldn't hurt, but the assembly lube seems to do it's job.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 21, 2018, 04:54:49 AM
For the oil pump, I have always just put a little assembly lube and a couple drips of oil on the moving parts when I assemble and then crank the engine over for about 20 seconds with the coil wire unhooked to get the oil primed and up into things.  Never had any issues with this method.

 
If you can force oil into the galleys it sure wouldn't hurt, but the assembly lube seems to do it's job.

With the spark plugs removed...…..
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 21, 2018, 05:11:19 AM
On priming the oil pump…. Some engine builders recommend Vaseline, some just motor oil, some assembly lube.  I don’t think it’s a major issue as long as some lubrication is in the pump and you don’t pack it with some kind of grease that is thicker than Vaseline.  Vaseline dissolves quickly once it’s mixes with motor oil.

Yeah... spark plug removed to crank engine to get oil pressure up before first firing.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 21, 2018, 05:18:28 AM
... For break-in I am doing 5 quarts of Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In Motor Oil as it is what 22RE performance recommends.  I will break the cam in on this 5 quarts, and I will drain the oil and change the filter and put 5 more quarts of the same stuff in for the first 400 miles.

Draining break-in oil right after the 20 minutes of cam break-in seems unnecessary.  At $10 per quart, I changed the break-in oil (Royal Purple) at about 200 miles, and put in dino 10w-40.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 21, 2018, 05:11:27 PM
Hey Gnarls, I would agree about it being unnessacary, I just wanted to to make sure it was clean oil and a clean filter. But the oil will only be in there for 400 miles before I switch to a dino oil. So the filter will work just fine.
It sounds like I don't need to do any priming if It already has assembly lube. I will pull the pump off before I turn it over and put some more in. Assembly lube coupled with forcing oil into the channels will be enough.
I am going to ensure there is no plugs in and that the coil wire and fuel line are disconnected. That way there is no fuel washing of the cylinders.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Dec 21, 2018, 05:15:50 PM
Alright why is everyone rocking the Dino oil?
What am I missing?
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 21, 2018, 05:20:02 PM
Alright why is everyone rocking the Dino oil?
What am I missing?
Good question. 22RE performance doesn't recommended synthetic at all, during or after break-in. I wonder why.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Dec 21, 2018, 05:23:31 PM
Good question. 22RE performance doesn't recommended synthetic at all, during or after break-in. I wonder why.

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Alright somebody with an in at 22re Perf needs to find out why for us.  :attention: Gnarly? 300K? Dingdong?
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 21, 2018, 05:25:32 PM
Got this Sucker in today! It is going in my 85' single cab 4x4. New transmission within the last 20K!
First Motor I've installed. At 19 years old it's not impressive, I've known younger that have! It was an interesting process.
Prior to install I did:
Transmission input shaft seal/gasket
Rear main installed/freshly machined flywheel and new clutch kit.

I DIDN'T drop the transmission during the install, Toyota recommends it in the FSM last time I checked.
I got the bell housing and the block lined up and bolted it together pulling both assemblies together.
It wouldn't slide together as I had heavily painted the motor which got on the rear alignment dowels.

I'm really eager to get it going! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181222/145dd6db32e1a956ff1f3693933fc879.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Dec 21, 2018, 05:45:32 PM
Alright somebody with an in at 22re Perf needs to find out why for us.  :attention: Gnarly? 300K? Dingdong?

I think their idea is that if it's not broke don't fix it. They were built for dino oil, and they ran for 300,000 miles on dino oil without issues. That being said I'm not sure if I agree with it because the oil from the 80s and 90s isn't the oil you find on the shelves today (thanks EPA, dicks)  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 21, 2018, 05:51:40 PM
I think their idea is that if it's not broke don't fix it. They were built for dino oil, and they ran for 300,000 miles on dino oil without issues. That being said I'm not sure if I agree with it because the oil from the 80s and 90s isn't the oil you find on the shelves today (thanks EPA, dicks)  :gap:
That's for sure. Way less zinc. I plan to run a zinc additive regularly.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Slabzilla on Dec 21, 2018, 06:27:20 PM
That's a thing of beauty, an installed engine ready for duty, good job.  I wish you many trouble-free miles and smiles.   :thumbs:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: helipilot77 on Dec 22, 2018, 06:44:08 AM
I was always told by the mechanic who built the motors in the helicopters to fill them with dino for the first couple oil changes while they continue to break-in. He said that sythetic was too slippery and didnt allow the parts to continue lap together as they wear in.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 23, 2018, 12:22:13 PM
A close-up of the motor. I installed the air-cleaner today. Looking pretty good I think!
Stock Aisin Carb + LCE Aisin to 5 1/8" carb adapter with a specter air filter.
Completely de-smogged carb with all cold start equipment still in place. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181223/a7f118a587d576530e5c427686f95c11.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 23, 2018, 04:09:16 PM
The small stuff of left to do:

-Pan seal
-Vacuum lines
-Rad clean/install
-prime oil system
-transmission fill (Synthetic Mobil Gear oil as suggested by Gnarly)
-Oil Prime
-Distributor time
-Break-in

Small list easily done in a few cold days.
Thinking about warming the motor up with a space heater prior to first start up. Dumb idea or good idea?

Title came for it as well, I lucked out for Registration prices. It was $70 for my Xtracab, no emissions or safety. I expect it to be similar for this truck.

I may take it to an emissions place to see how far off the pipe readings are once it's broken in, I'm curious how clean these de-smogged 22R's run. Cat is staying.

Oh and carpet, can't stand bare floors!


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: OVRAROK on Dec 23, 2018, 04:18:46 PM
I would fill transmission with redline mt90. It's the best for these old toyota transmissions.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 23, 2018, 04:42:58 PM
..I installed the air-cleaner today.

I like the air filter, good idea.  I think the stock air filter may be slightly restrictive. 

I did this to my 22R and it was VERY noticeable.

I stacked 2 stock paper filters.

https://imgur.com/a/TSMElO6

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 23, 2018, 04:46:03 PM
I would fill transmission with redline mt90. It's the best for these old toyota transmissions.  :twocents:

Redline MT90 or MTL or Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear oil would be good choices.  I doubt your transmission will notice any difference. Your shifts will be smoother, and noticeble from conventional dino lube.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 23, 2018, 04:49:12 PM
Redline MT90 or MTL or Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear oil would be good choices.  I doubt your transmission will notice any difference. Your shifts will be smoother, and noticeble from conventional dino lube.

Gnarls.
That's what I'm thinking! That's why I'm going to take your advice. I may try both eventually, but your advice for the Mobil 1 is what I'll use.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: OVRAROK on Dec 23, 2018, 04:52:04 PM
Redline MT90 or MTL or Mobil 1 Synthetic Gear oil would be good choices.  I doubt your transmission will notice any difference. Your shifts will be smoother, and noticeble from conventional dino lube.

Gnarls.

I like the fact that your first written choice was MT90... LOL
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 23, 2018, 05:04:24 PM
I found Red Line MT-90 for $12.40 a quart over at:

https://goo.gl/LgZ9GG

That's $74.40 (shipping not included) for a transmission/T-case fill, with the G52 taking 4.1 quarts and the RF1A takes 1.7

For 6 quarts of the Mobil 1, it would be anywhere from $10 to 13 a quart. For the price, I will probably just go with redline.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 23, 2018, 05:04:50 PM
I like the fact that your first written choice was MT90... LOL

MTL was what the Redline tech suggested for my W56, and I told her I live in Phoenix, AZ.  The MT-90 has a higher Poise  value for viscosity in extreme low temperatures.  Mobil 1 has a lower number.  I think for colder climates, I'd go with a lower viscosity index.  I like the feel of Mobil 1.  I bought it because it was off-the-shelf at Autozone and less per quart than Redline, and it's highly rated.

Gnarls. 
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 23, 2018, 05:07:45 PM
... I will probably just go with redline.


Can't go wrong! :thumbs:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 24, 2018, 07:39:31 PM
More done today. I plumbed up my vacuum lines as per the 82' Canadian spec. No emissions or smog equipment. Just cold start stuff like the BVSV for the AAP and the choke stuff.
I also cleaned the heater core out, I filled it with CLR and cleaned it with vinegar before flushing it with some coolant. Oil pan bolted on too, and oil pump primed.
This next weekend I'm gonna prime the oil system and probably start it.
I actually like the grease gun hose, it's 1/8th npt which fits into my adapter that goes into the block. I may attach the plastic line to this hose utilizing that thicker hose in an area where stuff could get caught. I am thinking about having a custom hose made, it'd be super easy.
I am also thinking about getting an emissions test to see if it's running right. Do you think this air cleaner will make it run way lean? To the point of being bad?

Gnarly you had the double filter with even more airflow, and I'd imagine you had stock jetting.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: helipilot77 on Dec 24, 2018, 08:21:39 PM
Yeah. Thats what I put in mine after the fresh rebuild Zippo just did on mine. It shifts real smooth. Synchros seem happy.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 25, 2018, 03:56:17 AM
The problem with an open filter is you get the hot engine compartment air into the engine.


You need a stock style, but V8 sized with a cold air snorkel(s).
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 25, 2018, 04:30:03 AM

I am also thinking about getting an emissions test to see if it's running right. Do you think this air cleaner will make it run way lean? To the point of being bad?

Gnarly you had the double filter with even more airflow, and I'd imagine you had stock jetting.


Hey T,

I did the double gnarly air filter mod because I added a DT header and larger exhaust, and was curious about the restrictive stock air filter canister.  I was blown away at the difference it made at cruising speeds.  I could actually shift into 5th gear and freeway speeds where before I had to stay in 4th and slightly slower MPH.  The amount of added torque at 3200 RPM was amazing, and if I hadn't done it, I would not have believed the difference.

The carb was factory stock.  The AFR was not negatively affected as far as I could tell.  I pulled plugs and check frequently.

As far as passing any smog EPA testing... I don't know what that air filter will do.  Physically it may not pass because it's not factory stock, but I would very surprised if the extra air flow will cause any lean mixture.  The Toyota factory Aisin carb is really smart and an incredibly well designed for all kinds of elevation, ambient air temp, and relative humidity changes. 

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 25, 2018, 04:39:11 AM
The problem with an open filter is you get the hot engine compartment air into the engine.


You need a stock style, but V8 sized with a cold air snorkel(s).

Hey e,

Yes... the openly exposed air filter does draw air from the engine bay, as opposed to an external tube.  But... the elevated air temperature that the engine will breath is not a big issue at cruise speeds.  The added "flow" with the larger air filter is more of a benefit than the any AFR issue caused by the higher air temps in the engine bay.

Of course a cooler intake air temp is typically more dense and should produce better combustion, right?  My 22R was noticeably more peppy when our temps were low and humidity higher.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 25, 2018, 09:16:27 AM
Motor and gear oil on it's way. I ended up paying way more for both than what I could have gotten elsewhere. I bought on Amazon, I got some cards from the holidays so I used them up.
6 quarts of Redline MT-90 and 6 quarts of joe Gibbs break-in oil.
I plan to change just the filter after the initial cam break-in. Good insurance so why not?
I go back to second semester of my welding degree the 7th of January, hoping I get her done by then!

Now for a question on climate. Is having this engines first start being cold (around 30°) going to be bad?
I don't have a garage, I work under my covered carport. I can use various space heaters to warm the engine prior, which would help.

For the first 1500 miles, I will only drive this truck to work at night on the weekdays and whenever on the weekends. The campus I go to requires me to take the freeway (unless I wanna take 45 minutes) so I will just take my Xtracab. I work downtown and I can drive on the city roads, good break-in for some RPM variance. On the weekends I'll try and take it out more to get some break-in miles on it.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 25, 2018, 10:22:29 AM
... Now for a question on climate. Is having this engines first start being cold (around 30°) going to be bad?
I don't have a garage, I work under my covered carport. I can use various space heaters to warm the engine prior, which would help.


Hey T,

Get’n closer!  Thank you for the progress reports!

Great question!

Cold oil is not good.  NASCAR engines have heaters that heat the motor oil BEFORE they fire the engines every time they start them.

Our kitchen faucet hot water comes out at about 117.5 degrees this time of year.  It is below the temperature to burn skin quickly, but hot enough to create just enough pain that you don’t want to hold your hand under the faucet for over about 5 or 6 seconds.

Here’s what I’d do if I was going to fire a freshly rebuilt engine in 30d F ambient air temperature….

I would get the engine completely ready to fire for the initial camshaft break-in.  I would take a big tub, place the 5 quarts of break-in oil in it, immediately fill it the buckets of hot tap water.  I’d let it set for about 5 to 10 minutes. Then take the quarts of oil out, dry them off, pour them into the engine, and immediately fire the engine.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 25, 2018, 10:41:05 AM
Hey T,

Get’n closer!  Thank you for the progress reports!

Great question!

Cold oil is not good.  NASCAR engines have heaters that heat the motor oil BEFORE they fire the engines every time they start them.

Our kitchen faucet hot water comes out at about 117.5 degrees this time of year.  It is below the temperature to burn skin quickly, but hot enough to create just enough pain that you don’t want to hold your hand under the faucet for over about 5 or 6 seconds.

Here’s what I’d do if I was going to fire a freshly rebuilt engine in 30d F ambient air temperature….

I would get the engine completely ready to fire for the initial camshaft break-in.  I would take a big tub, place the 5 quarts of break-in oil in it, immediately fill it the buckets of hot tap water.  I’d let it set for about 5 to 10 minutes. Then take the quarts of oil out, dry them off, pour them into the engine, and immediately fire the engine.

Gnarls.
Fantastic idea. I will also put a Heater in the engine bay to warm it up. My tap water comes out hot, best boiling is not bad but I need to be able to transport it.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 27, 2018, 08:57:00 AM
Another question, this time on zinc additives!

Is it a bad idea to run it every oil change? I've heard yes from some, but not really a no from what I've looked up. My break-in oil already has a high zinc content, so I won't run an additive with it. After the first oil change (400 miles on rebuild) Should I run a zinc additive for extra insurance? I'll be running 10W30 probably year round, and just Pennzoil. The oils from around when this truck came out and way more zinc compared to now, so wouldn't it be smart to run it?


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 27, 2018, 09:44:36 AM
Good news! My gear oil, engine oil and a few other things needed come tomorrow. I am gonna start it on Saturday!
For heat I found this: https://goo.gl/458Z9T

It's an engine heater that works a electromagnet and heats up the block. This will get it night and toasty for that first run. I may drive it around a ton, I want to get it broken in properly and I may do that over the course of the next week.
Getting really excited! Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 27, 2018, 06:14:56 PM
My opinion is that they've figured out an oil additive package that doesn't need the zinc anymore.

(At least for overhead cam engines, probably for non-extreme non-roller tappet in block engines too)

After break-in, a slippy synthetic with it's additive package should be fine.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Dec 27, 2018, 06:20:12 PM
My opinion is that they've figured out an oil additive package that doesn't need the zinc anymore.

(At least for overhead cam engines, probably for non-extreme non-roller tappet in block engines too)

After break-in, a slippy synthetic with it's additive package should be fine.

I think it has more to do with the evolution of the engine. Less valve seat pressure, roller lifters, less wear in general. No longer needed for a new car.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 28, 2018, 04:44:42 AM
I think it has more to do with the evolution of the engine. Less valve seat pressure, roller lifters ....

Actually that is not true.  Today's engine designs typically produce power at higher RPMS.  Higher RPMs require more valve spring pressure... more "valve seat pressure".  Roller lifters typically are heavier and require more valve spring pressure.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 28, 2018, 04:47:09 AM
I think it has more to do with the evolution of the engine. Less valve seat pressure, roller lifters, less wear in general. No longer needed for a new car.
"less wear in general"... probably true.  Do the new modern engines need ZDDP or zinc additives... probably not.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 28, 2018, 05:19:05 AM
Another question, this time on zinc additives!

... Should I run a zinc additive for extra insurance?...


Good question.

Some years back zinc and phosphorus additives were dropped or reduced from oil formulations because of environmental issues, combustion carbon, and catalytic converter damage.  Zinc supplies are not keeping up with demands and zinc mining worldwide is being reduced, so there may be a cost factor as well.

Do you need zinc in engine oil for a 22?  Depends on who you talk to.  I know a cam grinder that’s been grinding cams for over 20 years and for 22s he recommends a zinc motor oil.  And for early flat tappet cams and lifters, zinc is highly recommended.

You could use a diesel oil like T6 with more zinc and phosphorus.

I don’t know what the rate of camshaft failures is for our early 20s and 22s.

If you are looking to help reduce long term wear, after a good engine break-in, you might consider running a synthetic oil with a low viscosity like Mobil 1 0w-40.  Since more wear occurs at cold starts, in a very cold climate I’d be running all synthetic oils and gear lubes because synthetics flow better at lower ambient temperatures.

Camshaft failure in a 22 is probably more often caused by lack of preventative maintenance (valve lash adjustments) improper valve spring pressure, lack of proper heat treating (carburizing) of reground aftermarket cams, or other factors other than simply a lubrication failure.

I believe 22RE Performance recommends just using standard dino oil.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 28, 2018, 05:29:51 AM
My opinion is that they've figured out an oil additive package that doesn't need the zinc anymore.

(At least for overhead cam engines, probably for non-extreme non-roller tappet in block engines too)

After break-in, a slippy synthetic with it's additive package should be fine.

I agree.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 28, 2018, 04:36:34 PM
A ton happened today, more progress on the truck.

I filled the rad and block with coolant, through the water neck and rad cap. 50/50 prestone, good stuff.
I installed a conventional block heater, the one you install in the freeze plug hole. Really cheap too, under $30! I have one on my other 85' 4X4, and I like it.
I figured the block heater coupled with hot oil will make it get that first start done good.

Like I mentioned, I am going to change the filter after the cam break-in, this is more to just clean out anything that potentially was in the block. Like dust.
I picked up a Toyota filter today, $3!

I bled and checked over the clutch hydraulics, and they are working great. I've however ran into my first comparability issue with the early 22R valve cover.
The throttle cable holder doesn't fit right, supposed to have 2 bolts but I've only got one. Tomorrow I'm going to re-drill the holes.

She's looking good! I am mounting a Tachometer and Oil pressure gauge in the engine bay, as I will be watching it like a hawk for that first break in. I don't need a tach to know when to shift good on these trucks, I think everyone gets there after awhile.
The Tachometer is just to help me keep my eyes on a solid RPM throughout the cam break-in. The oil pressure gauge is there for the same purpose. I'm also running the factory light so if anything was bad while driving, I would know.

I would like to do a decent oil pressure gauge in the cab at some point, like an auto meter.

I am starting the truck tomorrow, I'm excited!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181229/3f2e093e5832dad2b1bde27cdcec7da6.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 29, 2018, 06:14:56 AM
It's look'n good!!!

I have not installed Autometer mechanical gauges in my Toy truck yet, but I have always had mechanical oil and an ammeter, and a tach in my vehicles.

You might consider turning those tie wraps down.  The little clipped off piece sticks up and is extremely sharp.

I'm curious about the block heater.  So it installs in one of the freeze plug holes.  You remove a freeze plug and stick it in the hole?  What keeps it from leaking coolant?  Is it a permanent installation, or do you remove it when not needing it?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 29, 2018, 07:11:12 AM
It's look'n good!!!

I have not installed Autometer mechanical gauges in my Toy truck yet, but I have always had mechanical oil and an ammeter, and a tach in my vehicles.

You might consider turning those tie wraps down.  The little clipped off piece sticks up and is extremely sharp.

I'm curious about the block heater.  So it installs in one of the freeze plug holes.  You remove a freeze plug and stick it in the hole?  What keeps it from leaking coolant?  Is it a permanent installation, or do you remove it when not needing it?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
For the block heater, it is a permanent solution. There's an O-ring that seals in the plug hole, and it uses clamping force to stay in the bore.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181229/6b05b99dc41d6736528838d394731728.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 29, 2018, 03:28:10 PM
Hey everyone, good news!

Today I fired up the motor for the first time!
I first cranked it without the spark plugs in so I could get good oil pressure. After 30 seconds of cranking it the light went out and it was time to go.

It started right up, and idled great. I did my first assessment to make sure it wasn't leaking from anywhere, which it isn't.

Then I started the procedure to break-in the cam, which I decided on 15 min at 1500 rpm as 22RE performance recommends. About one minute in, and the block heater I installed blew out! Hot coolant everywhere!! I quickly shut it down.
Not sure why the heater failed, I tightened the nut that spreads the arms that hold it in. I may take it back and get a new one if I can't get it to seal.

Worst comes to worse, I'll just install the freeze-plug back in.

After filling it up with coolant she won't start. I abstained from cranking too long as that would put more fuel in the cylinders than I want. Any reasons why? It can't be anything insane if it ran great before I had to shut it down. Got it to sputter but no start. Timing hasn't been set yet, but had it been a tooth off the chain it wouldn't run at all or very poorly.

Excited! Thanks everyone.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 29, 2018, 04:00:42 PM
Just got off the phone with my local AutoZone. They have a cooling system pressure tester, it will allow me to pressurize the cooling system as if it was running, this way I can track down any leaks so I don't have this issue.

22RE Performance recommends you do this very thing before startup...

Like I mentioned though, the engine ran fantastic! No shakes, weird noises or anything. And no valve tick!
Well, after a new cam/rockers/adjusters I'd expect as much.

Tomorrow I will rent this and then get this issue solved. Let's get this done!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 30, 2018, 03:37:02 AM
Hey Toybrota,

Well… it's great that you got your engine to fire right up and it sounded really good.  :beerchug:

Leaks at 1st time start ups are not uncommon.  I’ve had coolant leaks almost every time I have fired a fully rebuilt or partially rebuilt engine.

I am very careful about trusting what any auto parts store says, they’re in the “sell-you-everything” business.  ???

Regarding the block heater, when I looked at the photo I could not see how it would have enough contact with the block freeze plug bore to sufficiently seal.  But I have never used a block heater.  As you know, freeze plugs are pounded in under a very tight tolerance.  The amount of pressure (pounds per square inch) on those plugs is about 30 PSI if your radiator cap is 13 lb. cap!  Risking a coolant leak that size would be crazy.  I would consider a different block heater.  :blah:

Pressure testing a coolant system when an engine is cold and pressure testing when it’s at normal running temperature are two different things.  :shake:

My guess is the reason it didn’t restart is probably mixture (air/fuel) issue and nothing mechanical.   :thumbs:

If engine ran for about 60 seconds, that is plenty of time to get the oil up into the rockers, cam, through all the bearings and cylinder walls. :D

Obviously you got another 15 minutes at RPMs to complete the camshaft break-in.

Gnarls.  :gap:




Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 30, 2018, 04:53:07 AM
My first start is always with plain old water...……..

just saying.





 :yupyup:


 :idea:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 30, 2018, 05:06:42 AM
My first start is always with plain old water...……..

just saying.

 :yupyup:


 :idea:


Hey e,

Yes.. this is a great tip.  :thumbs:

I did this with my 22R head job.  I found all kinds of "particles" (pieces of gasket material, RTV, other stuff) when I drained it.

I did NOT use just water on my recent rebuild, and ended up with slimy, sticky ethylene glycol running up my arm as I had to fix a leak at the little hoses under the IAC valve.  :shake_head:

Gnarls.  :gap:

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 30, 2018, 07:18:44 AM
Hey Toybrota,

Well… it's great that you got your engine to fire right up and it sounded really good.  :beerchug:

Leaks at 1st time start ups are not uncommon.  I’ve had coolant leaks almost every time I have fired a fully rebuilt or partially rebuilt engine.

I am very careful about trusting what any auto parts store says, they’re in the “sell-you-everything” business.  ???

Regarding the block heater, when I looked at the photo I could not see how it would have enough contact with the block freeze plug bore to sufficiently seal.  But I have never used a block heater.  As you know, freeze plugs are pounded in under a very tight tolerance.  The amount of pressure (pounds per square inch) on those plugs is about 30 PSI if your radiator cap is 13 lb. cap!  Risking a coolant leak that size would be crazy.  I would consider a different block heater.  :blah:

Pressure testing a coolant system when an engine is cold and pressure testing when it’s at normal running temperature are two different things.  :shake:

My guess is the reason it didn’t restart is probably mixture (air/fuel) issue and nothing mechanical.   :thumbs:

If engine ran for about 60 seconds, that is plenty of time to get the oil up into the rockers, cam, through all the bearings and cylinder walls. :D

Obviously you got another 15 minutes at RPMs to complete the camshaft break-in.

Gnarls.  :gap:
The engine ran great! Everything is Definitely oiled up well.
I am doing a different block heater, I'm returning the one I got in favor of a magnetic electrical heater that goes on your oil pan. For the mean time, I will be using a rubber freeze plug in the hole I pulled the heater out of.
Coolant leaks are common on first start up, you are right. That's why  checking the system with a tester is important. If I can pressurize the system to 13 PSI (rad cap threshold) then I don't have any leaks.
Before I start it up I am going to verify timing again (pulling valve cover and making sure it's all good)
I'd like to note as well, this thing didn't have a single leak prior to the little blow out, everything else is sealed properly!

I plan to get the break-in done today after I fix the freeze-plug. One thing I noticed is the oil pressure, over 60psi at hot idle. I expect about as much with the new pump. The pressure is constant too, as fluctuating numbers can attribute to blocked oil passages... Not for me.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 30, 2018, 10:15:26 AM
Made progress already today.
I installed a new brass freezeplug, and returned the damn Block heater.
I got the magnetic one and put her on my oil pan.
I currently am pressure testing the system, I brought it up to 15 psi and saw a few drips out of some hoses. A quick tighten on the hose clamp and she's good! No drips out of the freeze-plug.
I'm gonna let it sit for about 15 minutes at 13psi to see if it bleeds down. No leaks anywhere.

Next I will pull the valve cover, make sure everything is looking good and I'll start it up again.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181230/027b49c1636c8be4a630b4b541b7677c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181230/f73d47c735b84fb59dbeb5c3f9b797bc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181230/b501abfc2c2224cb3dd4ea12e209a5ef.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181230/5d2244c03e836ed05c0e42ec9d1f3c44.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Dec 30, 2018, 10:00:22 PM
Well, I'd attach a video of it running if I could!
But she runs great. There still is some seeping from the freeze plug, I didn't get it in properly.
I learned today that I'm renting the install tool tomorrow.
I'm also going to put some sealant around the edge, apparently everyone does this and I didn't. Probably why it failed.

Back to how it drives... Because it does!

Today I took her for a spin around my neighborhood. And I tell ya, that redline was worth every penny!
This transmission shifts like it's brand new.
The engine runs and drives great. Maintains good oil pressure, and doesn't overheat.
I'm running the larger Toyota oil filter, I thought this would be perfect for the break-in as it can catch more stuff. I'll be running this oil for 400 excruciatingly documented miles.




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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 02, 2019, 10:48:41 AM
Got a FANTASTIC deal on this Snap-on core plug installation set. Retails for $298, but I got it for $60.
I know, weird odd-ball tool I'll need only once.
Today I'm gonna install the freeze plug properly using this tool. It comes with a 40MM attachment, which is what the Toyota plugs are.
I think my main issue before was I installed the freeze-plug without a proper tool, the plug didn't start going in straight with a socket, so I could never get it fully flush. I may actually drill a hole in the fender so I can hit the plug properly....

Trying to figure out another use for this tool when I'm done. I would've rented one, but I couldn't find a single place in the whole Salt Lake valley that rented it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190102/58316061686b338e9bef460456d7059e.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: NotPossible907 on Jan 02, 2019, 01:22:30 PM
You might consider turning those tie wraps down.  The little clipped off piece sticks up and is extremely sharp.
Gnarls. :inthedark:

I've always twisted them off above the square lock with a pair of pliers. Breaks them flush and not sharp.

Good looking build so far!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Jan 02, 2019, 01:28:59 PM
These are the bee's tiddys for cutting zip ties. (https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/Pliers-Vise/Pliers11/midget-lightweight-diagonal-cutters-d275-5?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=Cj0KCQiA37HhBRC8ARIsAPWoO0zz7qCaP6LvAK4GbJAw9EcU4ObJ7DA7uFJ74Il352RterP0iDLNQAwaAsG3EALw_wcB) Never cut myself on a ziptie when I cut them with these.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jan 03, 2019, 03:45:31 AM
I've always twisted them off above the square lock with a pair of pliers. Breaks them flush and not sharp.

Good looking build so far!

Interesting... that definitely does NOT work for me.  :shake_head:

Gnarls. :greengrin:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Jan 03, 2019, 03:53:47 AM
Flush cut with razor blade......
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jan 03, 2019, 04:26:11 AM
Flush cut with razor blade......

Hmmmm... I've tried that also... didn't work well for me.  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 04, 2019, 08:58:21 AM
Good news! About to hit the first 100 miles on the rebuild, and she's running awesome. Doesn't leak a drop of anything. I've been driving it around on the streets and not on the freeway.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: RASALIBRE on Jan 08, 2019, 02:25:31 PM
Thoroughly enjoyed following along with your engine build and problem solving skills. Hope the updates (good or bad) keep coming.  :beer:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 08, 2019, 03:23:39 PM
Thoroughly enjoyed following along with your engine build and problem solving skills. Hope the updates (good or bad) keep coming. 
Thanks!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 08, 2019, 03:28:16 PM
Truck is running amazing as usual. No oil use whatsoever. It's strange having a nice and clean and quiet 22R! Tomorrow I'll probably get close to the 300 mile mark.

One thing though, the shifter seat finally ended up disintegrating - As they all do over time.
This means it's time for a Marlin Delrin shift seat!

I pulled all the spark plugs the other day as well and they all look great. No evidence of running overly rich or lean. Gas mileage is AWFUL though. I calculated about 13.5, I assume this is a combination of several things. The EGR removal, it's a new motor.... I expect it to go up soon.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190108/8ef6644d81cea13a8eac11b930c9b31d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190108/9d1fcd5c170440385956b212d512785f.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 12, 2019, 07:57:11 PM
Some interesting things have been happening with the build. First off, it's apparent that it has a rear main seal leak.
I had the machine shop install a sleeve on the crank, looks like it wasn't done right or they just don't work.
I'm not worried though, the oil level hasn't dropped at all. I topped off the oil after I changed the filter on break in, like 200 miles ago. Level has stayed consistent.
I think Toyota installed the steel adapter plate for a reason, prevents a leaky rear main from affecting the clutch components.

And secondly, an interesting issue with a leaky rad cap.
Today I was doing door dash, a food delivery service. I had been driving the truck around for about 2 hours, in stop and go and idling traffic. I drive up a few hills and when I stop the truck and come back, it has leaked a bit. I come home, and check the coolant after it cools down. Level is fine.
Online searching says head gasket or bad rad cap.
It can't be the head gasket. No signs whatsoever of overheating, or oil in coolant or vice versa. This rad cap is from my other truck, I just swapped them to see if it was bad. Both work fine, both radiators are the same.
The other idea is that there is too much coolant in the system. A few days ago I heard some gurgling from the heater core area, which is now since gone. I figured this normal as it working a air bubble out of the system. Haven't heard anything since.
It's possible the rad cap is just bad, it definitely doesn't fit snug. Same pressure rating.
It also isn't pushing coolant into the overflow tank. When I experienced a blow HG on a 22R that's the main thing it did.

I'm leaning towards a bad rad cap because if it were to overpressureize it would send it to the overflow tank. Not come out the cap.
Yesterday I pulled the spark plugs to see how they looked, all normal.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 300k on Jan 12, 2019, 08:24:00 PM
Looks like a parts store cap on there now. Get a Sankei cap. Also make sure the ears on the radiator aren't bent. I was having that issue with a janky Ebay 3 core aluminum radiator.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Jan 12, 2019, 10:47:54 PM
Make sure the radiator is not to tall or mounted to Hi.
I have seen where the cap just slightly contacts the hood causing it to release the pressure.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 13, 2019, 12:15:45 AM
Looks like a parts store cap on there now. Get a Sankei cap. Also make sure the ears on the radiator aren't bent. I was having that issue with a janky Ebay 3 core aluminum radiator.
The cap on there was definitely Japanese. I put the one that came on the radiator and it required a more noticable amount of effort to get it on. I guess tomorrow I will find out!

Tomorrow im also going to hit the 400 mile mark on the rebuild, changing it out fresh with some Pennzoil 5W-30 and a Toyota filter (the larger D3)

Driving this thing daily has really made me miss a decent sound system like I have in the Xtracab. Makes driving so... Boring. Also can't drown out the little sounds


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Jan 13, 2019, 12:25:35 AM
Is the rear leaking seal a Toyota seal?
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 13, 2019, 12:35:53 AM
Is the rear leaking seal a Toyota seal?
Yes, I believe it's the new updated Toyota seal design that's double lipped? LCE repair sleeve installed at a machine shop. New rear main seal hardware/gasket

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Jan 13, 2019, 01:49:10 AM
A rear half-moon leak on the head often looks like the rear seal......
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jan 13, 2019, 04:59:43 AM
A rear half-moon leak on the head often looks like the rear seal......

Yes it can.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jan 13, 2019, 05:01:08 AM
LCE repair sleeve installed at a machine shop. New rear main seal hardware/gasket


Why was a sleeve used?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jan 13, 2019, 05:06:54 AM
First off, it's apparent that it has a rear main seal leak ....
I think Toyota installed the steel adapter plate for a reason, prevents a leaky rear main from affecting the clutch components.

Why is it "apparent"?

The plate may slow it down, but will not prevent oil from the rear main seal from getting on the clutch disc if the leak is bad.

At the bottom of the bellhousing there is little 3/8" slot.  Is oil visible and seeping out of that hole?
Quote

And secondly, an interesting issue with a leaky rad cap.


This should be an easy fix.  A TVS Stant cap should be more than adequate.  I would not spend $20 on a radiator cap.... but I'm in "frugal mode".

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 13, 2019, 09:36:51 AM
Why is it "apparent"?

The plate may slow it down, but will not prevent oil from the rear main seal from getting on the clutch disc if the leak is bad.

At the bottom of the bellhousing there is little 3/8" slot.  Is oil visible and seeping out of that hole?
This should be an easy fix.  A TVS Stant cap should be more than adequate.  I would not spend $20 on a radiator cap.... but I'm in "frugal mode".

Gnarls.
Hey Gnarls, I figured it "apparent" as it was a fluid leak none the less. However...
Yesterday for the hell of it I marked the clutch master cylinder fluid level with a pen, just a simple diagnosis to tell me if it is that leaking.

The answer? It's the clutch hydraulics.
The oil level hasn't dropped in 2 weeks, I last topped it off after I changed the filter, over 250 miles ago.
The fluid leaking was a golden color, I know the brake fluid in the resivour is close to a darker color, but when the fluid leaks it always seems lighter.
You can see in the picture the fluid level is clearly BELOW the line I drew. I'm gonna have someone mash the pedal while I take a peek to see if I can see it squirting from somewhere. The clutch is noticably slower to retract than my Xtracab, which has a newer slave cylinder. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190113/2a0dcda048f88917c441d972d362fed2.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 13, 2019, 09:48:52 AM
A few more pictures. The clutch itself isn't affected.
The fluid leaking is also more noticeably darker than before. You can see the small drain hole in the bell housing isn't leaking. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190113/80c7eea70b01de503c2efe7a025c8c7a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190113/3358d4f749ed4993cad4e1044a1b41a3.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: OVRAROK on Jan 13, 2019, 10:28:42 AM
Time for new clutch master and slave  :eyebrow:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 13, 2019, 12:26:27 PM
Well, looks like I was wrong all along. It's both the rear main and the slave cylinder leaking. Awesome!
I'm honestly not worried about it right now. It's something I can stay on top of.
Question is, how do I fix it? Or do I just live with the leak? It's got a seal saver on it, and a Toyota seal. Remove the saver for just the seal?



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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 13, 2019, 06:50:06 PM
Tomorrow I will be ordering a new slave and master cylinder for this thing. Since both are leaking.
Interesting, why are the same Aisin parts marked up nearly 100% on the MC store? Unless all the Aisin parts on Amazon are fakes? Hence the cheaper price?


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 17, 2019, 07:06:16 PM
Question about redline Gear oil.

Is MT-90 made anymore? When I bought it on Amazon it came as MT-85. The transmission definitely doesn't shift into second like I think it's supposed to. What I read is that the MT-85 is thinner and therefore more slippery.

Should I just run it? Second doesn't grind, just doesn't shift smoothly. Which it didn't do on the dino gear oil.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jan 19, 2019, 09:04:58 AM
Question about redline Gear oil.


Of course MT-90 is still available.  MT-85 is just a 75-85W, MT-90 is 75-90W…. I’d bet a 6-pack you would NOT be able to tell the difference in shifting.  If you live a colder climate, the MT-85 would flow a little better at lower temperatures.

Regarding shifts… for me it may be very difficult to determine “how” a shift should feel.  I prefer a “crisp” shift where there is a detective feel in my hand at the shifter when the gears change.  After having two W56 5-speeds rebuilt, the shifts were tight, with some noticeable momentary force at the moment of gear change.  Once the new synchros become balance in their friction forces, the shifts became smoother with less detective force at gear change.

After 100K+ miles on synchos the feel of the shifts become harder and require more force at the stick to change gears, either shift up or shift down, more on down-shifting.

I’d go with whatever Redline Technical people advise…. They are the experts.

If I lived in a cold climate, I’d be running full synthetic oils and gear lubes.

That just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 19, 2019, 09:25:51 AM
Of course MT-90 is still available.  MT-85 is just a 75-85W, MT-90 is 75-90W…. I’d bet a 6-pack you would NOT be able to tell the difference in shifting.  If you live a colder climate, the MT-85 would flow a little better at lower temperatures.

Regarding shifts… for me it may be very difficult to determine “how” a shift should feel.  I prefer a “crisp” shift where there is a detective feel in my hand at the shifter when the gears change.  After having two W56 5-speeds rebuilt, the shifts were tight, with some noticeable momentary force at the moment of gear change.  Once the new synchros become balance in their friction forces, the shifts became smoother with less detective force at gear change.

After 100K+ miles on synchos the feel of the shifts become harder and require more force at the stick to change gears, either shift up or shift down, more on down-shifting.

I’d go with whatever Redline Technical people advise…. They are the experts.

If I lived in a cold climate, I’d be running full synthetic oils and gear lubes.

That just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.
I've got a return from Amazon, I'm getting Redline MT-90 instead of the 85.

I replaced the clutch master and slave, as well as the shift seat with a Marlin Delrin seat. She shifts great, sometimes in second it doesn't shift how I'd want it to. But I realized, EVERY other G52 I've driven has been like that. I'm just super duper paranoid because it's my new truck! Old truck has valve tap like a mofo, this new one barely does and I still freak out.

Good news, I am almost at 600 total miles on the rebuild! Yesterday I put a little over 50 miles on it and it never once gave me a single issue. Oil level stayed consistent. Which, after letting the truck leak a bit more I CAN confirm it's the oil pan and NOT the rear main. I got a good flash light and looked in the peep hole and it's dry as can be.


I appreciate all the help everyone has provided, specifically you Gnarls! I'd buy you all a beer if I could.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jan 20, 2019, 11:50:36 AM
...I CAN confirm it's the oil pan and NOT the rear main. I got a good flash light and looked in the peep hole and it's dry as can be. 

 That's why I asked if you could see motor oil or gear oil seeping through that little hole.  :thumbs:

Quote
I appreciate all the help everyone has provided, specifically you Gnarls! I'd buy you all a beer if I could.

Well.... thank you Toybrota!  I'd take you up on it if I could.  I have gotten many great tips and information from people who are willing to take the time to share it on forums like this one and I always enjoy giving back something if I can.... even if it turns out to be a worthless opinion.  :disturbed:

I am proud of you for being smart about rebuild and for taking the time to share your experiences here on the forum.  :beerchug:

I hope that engine runs like a raped ape for many years!  :best:

Gnarls.  :gap:

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Jan 20, 2019, 09:29:13 PM
I managed to seal an oil pan leaking bolt by gooping RTV around it...……...
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 21, 2019, 01:16:03 AM
I managed to seal an oil pan leaking bolt by gooping RTV around it...……...
An idea. Right now I'm doing nothing. I swear just one drip in my driveway from overnight. Just gonna drive it and enjoy it. Near the 600 mile mark on the rebuild. All city driving. Varying the RPM as much as possible.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 23, 2019, 11:53:19 AM
Hey all, since the last two fuel ups I've been getting over 17 mpg! I think that's pretty darn good considering it's a fresh rebuilt motor. I'm just about to hit 700 miles total.
I've been saving my receipts and documenting my mileage ever since the engine first started, partly because I deliver food on the weekends and I want a tax write off. Also, so I can see how many gallons and how far I went for each tank.
I don't drive the truck fuel conscious either, I don't lug it in a high gear while cruising. This way, it'll help break the rings in more (higher RPM, more fluctuations in RPM)
After the first 1000 miles when I start driving it on the freeway, I am certain I'll get better MPG.
Yeah, it's not been on the freeway.

The new engine "break-in" I've been following is what Toyota recommend in the owner's manual.
Don't go over 55 for the first 1000 means no freeway.
No cruising at speeds for long periods of time.
No lugging the motor (never heard it ping)
I also follow the Toyota recommended shift points...

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Jan 23, 2019, 03:35:04 PM
What is your timing set at?
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Jan 23, 2019, 04:21:27 PM
What is your timing set at?


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Jan 23, 2019, 04:26:24 PM
 :clap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jan 25, 2019, 07:25:12 AM

The new engine "break-in" I've been following is what Toyota recommend in the owner's manual.
Don't go over 55 for the first 1000 means no freeway.
No cruising at speeds for long periods of time.
No lugging the motor (never heard it ping)
I also follow the Toyota recommended shift points...


Engine rebuild break-ins.... very interesting topic.  :gap:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 01, 2019, 10:23:25 AM
Getting 18 MPG. Gonna hit 1000 miles on the rebuild today. Runs and drives amazing. Going to start taking it on the freeway for small short distances and working my way up to assess reliability while cruising longer distances. I'm limiting my speed to 70 MPH as that only has the engine spinning at 2800RPM.
Also, 600 miles on this oil change and NO oil consumption whatsoever. Oil pan drips a drop or two overnight. Cam is wearing great. No valve tap.

I'd say this rebuild was a success! The biggest trip will be from Salt Lake City to Vancouver WA in a few months when I move. No doubt in my mind it'll do great.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: EASYRYDERDANGER on Feb 02, 2019, 09:44:06 AM
Sweet, you can go wheeling with besgen
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 02, 2019, 10:02:57 AM
Sweet, you can go wheeling with besgen
Sure can! There's tons of guys up in the PNW with Toyota's. Yotashop is up in Vancouver too, I'm gonna see if I can secure a job with them if they are hiring!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 02, 2019, 10:08:20 AM
First trip on the freeway went well! Did 70 no problem. Truck does vibrate a bit at speed... But that's for a separate thread.
I also attempted to go have it emissions tested, with no smog equipment on the motor. Why? Well, I'm a strong believer that it would pass the tail pipe test, just not the under-hood "visual" test. I wanted to test this theory, but they wouldn't even test it with no smog stuff on board. That conversation was followed up with me asking if they are obligated to tell the authorities of my non compliant vehicle. I can confirm they don't.



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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: EASYRYDERDANGER on Feb 02, 2019, 03:47:58 PM
Just ask automotive shops if they have a 5gas.  Also, it would almost certainly pass the wa state test cause they jacked up the numbers about 6 years ago.  I wanna say 400ppm on HC, fogot what CO was?  Basically, if you dont have dead miss, you PASS!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 02, 2019, 03:52:32 PM
Just ask automotive shops if they have a 5gas.  Also, it would almost certainly pass the wa state test cause they jacked up the numbers about 6 years ago.  I wanna say 400ppm on HC, fogot what CO was?  Basically, if you dont have dead miss, you PASS!
luckily, in Vancouver no emissions 25 years old and back! They also are fine with street legal dirtbikes.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: EASYRYDERDANGER on Feb 02, 2019, 05:33:45 PM
Same here
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: NotPossible907 on Feb 03, 2019, 08:28:52 AM
Gotta move somewhere else... No emissions on anything here! Even newer vehicles, wait for warranty to be done and rip all emissions off.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Feb 03, 2019, 02:00:43 PM
Engine rebuild break-ins.... very interesting topic.  :gap:

Gnarls.

:popcorn:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 05, 2019, 03:24:07 PM
Well, I've almost hit 1000 miles on this oil change, and there is NO drop in oil level. That's with a slight oil pan leak! No oil consumption makes me happy!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 13, 2019, 02:55:30 PM
1500 miles on the rebuild now. Runs like a raped ape.
Really been fightin' to get absolutely no valve tick. I'm guessing most just give up after awhile.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Feb 13, 2019, 05:46:05 PM
Aluminum rockers will make a bit of noise.  Only way I've got rid of it completely is to use the old style steel rockers.  Don't stress on it too much.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 13, 2019, 06:43:20 PM
1500 miles on the rebuild now. Runs like a raped ape.
Really been fightin' to get absolutely no valve tick. I'm guessing most just give up after awhile.

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Hey T...

You will be fighting a battle I don't believe you are going to win.  These engines make rocker noise.  The very best you should expect is to get the rocker tick balanced across all 8 valves.

By the way... a bad stock fuel pump can sound like rocker tick.  And... an exhaust leak at the exhaust manifold or header can sometimes sound like rocker tick.  Also... if you not paying attention, a timing chain can also sound similar to a rocker tick.

That's just my opinion - in may be worthless.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 13, 2019, 07:00:31 PM
Hey T...

You will be fighting a battle I don't believe you are going to win.  These engines make rocker noise.  The very best you should expect is to get the rocker tick balanced across all 8 valves.

By the way... a bad stock fuel pump can sound like rocker tick.  And... an exhaust leak at the exhaust manifold or header can sometimes sound like rocker tick.  Also... if you not paying attention, a timing chain can also sound similar to a rocker tick.

That's just my opinion - in may be worthless.

Gnarls.
I would have to agree, it's a battle I'll never win. I've always wondered how these things sounded when new, no way Toyota would've sold a truck with a ticking motor, I wonder what they set the clearance at from factory? Can't be the 0.008 and 0.012

I've been setting mine to 0.007 and 0.011 COLD, which is NOT what Toyota said. I've read that Marlin recommended as small as 0.006 and 0.010 to make them quieter. Always seems to be the back two intake valves.

As far as the fuel pump, I know they can make a noise, mine is silent. Chain is good too, checked today.

As always, thanks for your opinion! You've done a bunch to help me with questions and I really appreciate it.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 13, 2019, 07:12:10 PM
I would have to agree, it's a battle I'll never win. I've always wondered how these things sounded when new, no way Toyota would've sold a truck with a ticking motor, I wonder what they set the clearance at from factory? Can't be the 0.008 and 0.012

I've been setting mine to 0.007 and 0.011 COLD, which is NOT what Toyota said. I've read that Marlin recommended as small as 0.006 and 0.010 to make them quieter. Always seems to be the back two intake valves.

As far as the fuel pump, I know they can make a noise, mine is silent. Chain is good too, checked today.

As always, thanks for your opinion! You've done a bunch to help me with questions and I really appreciate it.

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Hi T...

I would definitely try setting the lash with the engine warmed to normal running temp. 

I spent many hours with my 22R and the valve lash adjustments!  A tighter lash will make the cam look bigger, it will increase the HP at the higher RPM range.  A looser adjustment will make a little rocker tick and will increase torque number at the lower RPM range.

I don't really know what the factory valve lash adjustment was on my first 1986 22RE when I drove it off the dealer lot, but, I agree the rocker tick was not very noticeable.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 13, 2019, 07:41:26 PM
I would have to agree, it's a battle I'll never win. I've always wondered how these things sounded when new, no way Toyota would've sold a truck with a ticking motor, I wonder what they set the clearance at from factory? Can't be the 0.008 and 0.012

I've been setting mine to 0.007 and 0.011 COLD, which is NOT what Toyota said. I've read that Marlin recommended as small as 0.006 and 0.010 to make them quieter. Always seems to be the back two intake valves.

As far as the fuel pump, I know they can make a noise, mine is silent. Chain is good too, checked today.

As always, thanks for your opinion! You've done a bunch to help me with questions and I really appreciate it.

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22re vehicles left with a bit of an engine tick all the time. It's a solid cam lift design. Valve train noise is normal
And required in order for there to be sufficient lash. The most common thing I have seen is people over tightening the 4 valve cover bolts. This will pull up on the rocker shaft assembly causing the valve clearance to increase and the valve tick to increase beyond acceptable levels.  :twocents: from an old Chevron employee
Pull up a couple videos of any old time v8 equipped with a solid lifter cam and you will hear the same type of noise.
I caution all of you on adjusting the valves beyond 7 and 11.
http://www.lcengineering.com/LCTechPages/ValveAdjustment.html
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 13, 2019, 07:49:51 PM
22re vehicles left with a bit of an engine tick all the time. It's a solid cam lift design. Valve train noise is normal
And required in order for there to be sufficient lash. The most common thing I have seen is people over tightening the 4 valve cover bolts. This will pull up on the rocker shaft assembly causing the valve clearance to increase and the valve tick to increase beyond acceptable levels.  :twocents: from an old Chevron employee
Pull up a couple videos of any old time v8 equipped with a solid lifter cam and you will hear the same type of noise.
I caution all of you on adjusting the valves beyond 7 and 11.
http://www.lcengineering.com/LCTechPages/ValveAdjustment.html
Thanks for the advice. I always break out my 1/4" drive torque wrench to get the acorn nuts just right.
Next time around, I'll adjust them to 0.008 and 0.012 Warm and see what it gets me.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 14, 2019, 04:50:20 AM

Hey T...

I'm curious to read about what your warm engine valve lash adjustment and rocker noise sounds like? ???

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 16, 2019, 11:21:41 AM
Hey T...

I'm curious to read about what your warm engine valve lash adjustment and rocker noise sounds like? ???

Gnarls.  :gap:
Haven't adjusted it yet, it's fine right now. Sometimes it'll tick more and then it stops. Kinda like a bipolar teenager.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 16, 2019, 11:24:29 AM
Pulled this vacuum cap off for the hell of it today, and there was a bit of fuel. This goes to a charcoal canister, and is supposedly a vapor vent. Is it bad if there's a bit of fuel that came out? Since it is a vapor vent, I can't see why it wouldn't be abnormal.
The truck occasionally will be a bit tricky to start after it's been running and it sets for 5 min, almost like it floods a tad. No big deal, always starts and runs normal. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190216/434d1ef7c09f46005b6f25556c962092.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 16, 2019, 01:48:12 PM
Went ahead and did some research, like I SHOULD have done before posting. Anyway, that's the Outer Vent control valve. H8PVMNT did a fantastic write up on de-smogging the stock carb.

I re-installed the charcoal canister and the vent hose, which has seemed to help with the light flooding issue I had when the truck is warm and has sat for 15 minutes. My guess is, the carb bowl had nowhere to vent the fumes and would lightly flood because of that?

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 25, 2019, 05:02:57 PM
I've had an issue with the truck running warm lately. I believe I may have found the problem.
The fan clutch!
Last Sunday, I went motorcycle riding with my buddies. I was driving up the trail and it started getting warm, close to the red zone. I know, the gauge doesn't tell me anything.
I didn't hear the fan at all, and when the truck is warm and running I could stop the fan with my finger...
Today in line at a fast food place it started getting warm too. Keep in mind it was 53° out.

I think the fan clutch was the culprit for sure. I may have to take it off road to see if it gets warm again...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/5f32ac466bb625f8440ca6ab0bf1418a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/2757dacfe49bf6448dcee7d390ed4c07.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/6809b5f8b0f645dc508391beeb24d76f.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: cbeers on Feb 25, 2019, 05:22:49 PM
part of why i replaced mine as part of my build :beerchug:

hopefully that solves your issues

CB
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 25, 2019, 05:38:02 PM
please consider installing a mechanical temp gauge.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 25, 2019, 06:03:36 PM
please consider installing a mechanical temp gauge.


This is VERY good advice.  WHY??.... a 20R or 22R/RE with our historical issue with an alloy head sitting on a cast iron block can cause a major failure if the engine is overheated.... even for a short period of time.

If I could only install ONE gauge in my truck, it would be a mechanical water temperature gauge... I prefer the Autometer gauges.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 25, 2019, 06:06:26 PM
This is VERY good advice.  WHY??.... a 20R or 22R/RE with our historical issue with an alloy head sitting on a cast iron block can cause a major failure if the engine is overheated.... even for a short period of time.

If I could only install ONE gauge in my truck, it would be a mechanical water temperature gauge... I prefer the Autometer gauges.

Gnarls.
Yes yes yes to all of this.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 25, 2019, 06:21:37 PM
Thanks for the tips everyone. No engine damage has been done yet, but I would like to prevent it! Likewise, I ordered one of these. Autometer of course. Oil pressure and water temp. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/6e4b7e4fff403a04ce7b08e923391440.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 25, 2019, 06:27:28 PM
Thanks for the tips everyone. No engine damage has been done yet, but I would like to prevent it! Likewise, I ordered one of these. Autometer of course. Oil pressure and water temp. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/6e4b7e4fff403a04ce7b08e923391440.jpg)

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That will be the best $61.06 you will EVER spend on your truck!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 26, 2019, 01:31:02 PM
Just took the truck up a steep mountain grade, Parleys Canyon on I-80.
Didn't have to downshift to 3rd like I do in my other truck. Awesome! Truck also didn't overheat, nor get noticeably warm per the gauge. Which we know isn't accurate. I pulled in 4th at about 60-65 for a good 5-10 minutes.

Truck runs great, well... It occasionally has a bit of a rough idle, especially in the cold. So the carb most likely needs a rebuild. I didn't rebuild it when I pulled it off the old motor, because it ran great with the knocking motor it came off of.
Could the slightly rough (a miss here and there, never consistent) be attributed to the de-smogged Toyota carb? I know the carb itself relies on input from several emissions devices, all inputs have been capped. There is no vacuum leaks anywhere. LCE carb adapter is silicone sealed to the carb.


I'm honestly considering a Weber once I move, but that in itself is a whole can of worms.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 26, 2019, 01:55:00 PM
Here's how all the plugs came out. Got about 16mpg last tank, probably attributed to carrying the heavy dirtbike for 60 miles. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/8c13b1f88841774c4c6923036b0ae231.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/7d088d347cdce74a0e41875067afc210.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/adaaa046ecd18e5b9d3b8662812339ce.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/718c0e5359d86fe8ed7714432d754824.jpg)

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The plugs are slightly reddish brown only on the one side. They don't look too far off to how they looked when I pulled them 1000 miles ago. Looks slightly lean. I actually had a small vacuum leak from the side intake plug. Well, it was bad enough for me to spin it out with my hand. Could this be completely attributed to the slightly lean looking plugs? Who knows. Sprayed carb clean in and under and around the intake runners where they meet the head, no change in idle. Same with carb base.

A video of it running. The slight miss is barely even noticeable.

https://youtu.be/VS_6G3Uw2Sg
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 26, 2019, 05:22:59 PM
Drilled the plug out and removed the idle mixture screw. No grooves in it, adjusted to the factory 3 1/2 turns out. I am willing to bet the lean look to the plugs is from the slight vacuum leak I fixed. We shall see. The idle is still a bit rough every now and then. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/2e028f15af4528b218903227b0374341.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: EASYRYDERDANGER on Feb 26, 2019, 05:34:33 PM
I trust my oem temp gauge, works great.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 26, 2019, 07:14:41 PM
I trust my oem temp gauge, works great.
:shake_head:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 26, 2019, 07:17:25 PM
I trust my oem temp gauge, works great.
Toyota purposely put a dead zone in the gauge. Likewise, it'll never be accurate. You get out of the dead zone on your way to overheating.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: EASYRYDERDANGER on Feb 26, 2019, 07:59:37 PM
I love my oem temp gauge, its accurate +/- .01 degree
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 26, 2019, 08:10:14 PM
Truck idles way better when warm, definitely noticeable. I now need to tackle the rough idle when cold. I may just buckle down and make my own manual choke like I've seen done before.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Feb 27, 2019, 02:55:40 AM
I think your slight lean was the vac leak.  Plugs don't look too bad anyway though.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 27, 2019, 05:25:59 AM
Next up is fixing the cold start stuffs. I have my truck set up like the Canadian vacuum diagram.
My BVSV has a broken nipple, so I just have the cold start stuff capped. Which is fine, it runs good once warmed up. While cold, not so much. Especially since it doesn't have the AAP functioning, it doesn't run well off high idle until warm. No biggie. I'm trying to locate a new BVSV to fix the issue.

My SR5 cluster comes for this truck today too, that'll be fun putting in. Oil pressure SENDER already installed in the block. Just need to run a tach wire.
Now I'll have two oil pressure gauges and two temp gauges. How overkill, I love it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/c9b555c6d30c7708e589767e06e7fa2b.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 28, 2019, 04:26:40 AM
   :haha:  I love my oem temp gauge, its accurate +/- .01 degree    :roflsign:

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 28, 2019, 04:34:27 AM
I agree with H.  The plugs look good.  I don't see any lean coloring.

Rough idle at a cold start with a carb'd engine is not uncommon.

A cold start rough idle, that goes away immediately at warm up, is almost always caused by the air fuel mixture.

Ambient air temperature and air density - Relative Humidity and Elevation (barometric pressure) can also significantly affect AFR.

Why does the carb NOT have a choke or an AAP?  ???

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Feb 28, 2019, 07:47:21 AM
I agree with H.  The plugs look good.  I don't see any lean coloring.

Rough idle at a cold start with a carb'd engine is not uncommon.

A cold start rough idle, that goes away immediately at warm up, is almost always caused by the air fuel mixture.

Ambient air temperature and air density - Relative Humidity and Elevation (barometric pressure) can also significantly affect AFR.

Why does the carb NOT have a choke or an AAP?  ???

Gnarls.  :gap:
The carb does have a choke and AAP. Both work too. The BVSV that controls both, has a broken nipple on top. I glued a metal tube in so I can connect a hose to hopefully make it work.
45° this morning, started up no issues.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 01, 2019, 03:19:42 AM
It's so hard to get ahold of a good BVSV.  We should all horde them every chance we get.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 02, 2019, 04:35:02 PM
Installed the autometer gauges! Looks great, but also functions good. I'm surprised with how fast the oil pressure gauge registers! Sitting at about 14-15psi of oil pressure at hot idle, which is great for 5W-30.
The temp gauge shows the engine running at 185° - 195° at idle and while driving, which is about where it should be with the stock thermostat from what I've read. Wasn't thrilled to drill such a large hole in the firewall but oh well, it was worth it! What do you all think? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/e1c234cafb50ba4d72dbab9bcc2c2e0b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/10e86dd151488e47be94b085faa5ef9a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/83c955f9cd425e748d4a1c14dad37fc9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/d1fc459c92af16666941dcbf206612ff.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 02, 2019, 04:36:06 PM
A close up of where it's Mounted. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190303/304de3008e073039f4d11a11b67d080c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 02, 2019, 05:25:37 PM
Good job. I think it looks great.
Your going to be amazed at how much more active the mechanical temp gauge is when compared to the stock Moron gauge (similar to an idiot light but in the gauge form). I will tell you not to be alarmed this summer when you see higher temps on your gauge than expected. I see mine go up to 210 on occasion when pulling a long steep hill.
This is completely normal just not show by the stock moron gauge.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 02, 2019, 06:07:41 PM
Good job. I think it looks great.
Your going to be amazed at how much more active the mechanical temp gauge is when compared to the stock Moron gauge (similar to an idiot light but in the gauge form). I will tell you not to be alarmed this summer when you see higher temps on your gauge than expected. I see mine go up to 210 on occasion when pulling a long steep hill.
This is completely normal just not show by the stock moron gauge.
Thanks for the advice. I anticipate that it'll climb a bit on warmer days. I'm curious what the stock idiot gauge temp range is. The dead zone has to be from at least 180-200.
The quality of autometer is amazing!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 02, 2019, 07:58:22 PM
Good job. I think it looks great.
Your going to be amazed at how much more active the mechanical temp gauge is when compared to the stock Moron gauge (similar to an idiot light but in the gauge form). I will tell you not to be alarmed this summer when you see higher temps on your gauge than expected. I see mine go up to 210 on occasion when pulling a long steep hill.
This is completely normal just not show by the stock moron gauge.

I don't want to blow too much sunshine up bgen's butt  :lipsrsealed: .... BUT.... he's spot on!  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 02, 2019, 08:03:56 PM
So... I commend you for getting mechanical gauges!!... really smart.  :thumbs:

BUTTTTT..... I personally will never mount MY gauges below my instrument panel. :shake_head:

... I have always had my gauges mounted right in front of my eyes, so I can't miss any readings, and my eyes scan them constantly.

That's just my anal-ness!  :beerchug:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 04, 2019, 02:16:47 PM
Having some issues getting the carb to idle smoothly at the idle spec. I can't get it to idle smooth at 700 rpm, but at higher elevation it does. So it needs a mixture adjustment.

Debating just getting a Weber, and installing a 02 sensor and gauge to tune it properly. Probably my best bet.
That, or I will make my own manual choke and manual throttle. Both would be easy to install. Weber sounds easier.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 04, 2019, 02:25:00 PM
Having some issues getting the carb to idle smoothly at the idle spec. I can't get it to idle smooth at 700 rpm, but at higher elevation it does. So it needs a mixture adjustment.

Debating just getting a Weber, and installing a 02 sensor and gauge to tune it properly. Probably my best bet.
That, or I will make my own manual choke and manual throttle. Both would be easy to install. Weber sounds easier.

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Weber and don't look back.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 04, 2019, 07:59:46 PM
Having some issues getting the carb to idle smoothly at the idle spec. I can't get it to idle smooth at 700 rpm, but at higher elevation it does. So it needs a mixture adjustment.

Debating just getting a Weber, and installing a 02 sensor and gauge to tune it properly. Probably my best bet.
That, or I will make my own manual choke and manual throttle. Both would be easy to install. Weber sounds easier.

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Hey T...

Before you go off on a Weber trip, you should consider finding out WHY your engine is having trouble with a smooth idle at 700 RPMs.  :dunno:

By the way...  a Weber carb is a viable option... but the "W" has its own set of "needs" and "wants".  :gap:

Gnarls.  :blah:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 05, 2019, 03:18:40 AM
I love the stock carb, and I have had excellent success with the Weber as well.  The three reasons I was stuck on the Aisan carb was the fact that it is good at angles, it's ability to adjust itself for elevation and the cold start features.  What I have found with the Weber is that it is great off road with the "hill climb mod" super easy and quick to make adjustments to jetting if needed and much to my dismay it even spanks the Aisan for the cold weather start.

I have been starting up my Weber at -17-20 F the last week or so with no block heater or anything.

Either way you can't go wrong.  The Aisan can certainly be made to go with a little tweaking and some better air.  The Weber is just easier to mess with and you get more tuning options.  The downsides I thought were there with the Weber just aren't really there.

That's all I have to say about that...
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 05, 2019, 08:25:00 AM
I love the stock carb, and I have had excellent success with the Weber as well.  The three reasons I was stuck on the Aisan carb was the fact that it is good at angles, it's ability to adjust itself for elevation and the cold start features.  What I have found with the Weber is that it is great off road with the "hill climb mod" super easy and quick to make adjustments to jetting if needed and much to my dismay it even spanks the Aisan for the cold weather start.

I have been starting up my Weber at -17-20 F the last week or so with no block heater or anything.

Either way you can't go wrong.  The Aisan can certainly be made to go with a little tweaking and some better air.  The Weber is just easier to mess with and you get more tuning options.  The downsides I thought were there with the Weber just aren't really there.

That's all I have to say about that...
Looks like I should fully tune mine before I ditch it for the Weber.

My truck doesn't need "extreme" angle capabilities, so that stock carb should be fine for me in that regard. Elevation differences, a functional HAC **Should** help with that.
Cold starting, well mine starts all the time no matter the temp. So I'm good there. If I got a functional BVSV the damn stuff would work properly.




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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 05, 2019, 09:26:23 AM
Current plan for the carb.

Find a functional BVSV
Find a functional HAC

I'm at about 4200' which is about the point for needing the HAC, so it would lean it out a bit from what I'm at if it was installed. I've read the HAC kicks in at 4,000' and above.
I've also read that several people say the HAC never functions how Toyota intended. Worth it? Who knows. The HAC wouldn't affect any issues I'm currently having, it'd just help with more power at higher elevation. It can be sluggish at altitude.



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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 09, 2019, 06:48:31 PM
Now that I can finally post... I feel I'd fill everyone in on what I've done! I went ahead and bought a Weber. Well, way more than that.

I bought a Weber 32/36, with the manual choke. Installed really easily earlier today.
Haven't started the truck up yet.

Now, I know the Weber 2 piece adapter is just junk, nothing can be done. So I went ahead and bought a Offenhauser intake manifold. I went with the single plane one. I prepped the gaskets on the 2 piece adapters with a fuel safe gasket sealer. Instructions say to use a sealer/grease. I didn't use anything on where the carb mounts to the adapter.

This clears up the issue with the carb adapter, and it flows more. Flow isn't a leading cause for me to buy it, since my stock exhaust/unported head means it won't really add any power.
I also am sure my intake manifold may be leaking, if I saturate the underside of the intake manifold it stumbled slightly. Not sure if it was a random stumble or not. Either way, I'm excited to get the new intake.

Now, tuning is one of the most trickiest parts for getting the Weber to run properly. So I bought a Air Fuel ratio gauge from Glowshift gauges. It'll require me to weld a 02 sensor in the exhaust, but it's worth the troubles. This will allow me to FULLY tune this carb and get it running how it should! I'm very happy I took everyone's advice!
I bought a high altitude jet kit so I can tune it beyond adjusting the screws. I'm at 4200' which is considered high altitude for the stock jet in the carb.

I got a few more odds and ends, a fuel pressure gauge/regulator. And the install kit for the intake, as it requires me to plumb the heater lines different. No biggie.


What do you all think? Good choice? Thanks for the helpful advice. While the forum was down, I started a write up on Pirate4x4 and have gotten nothing but crap from what I've spent and done to this truck. Guess I know which forum I'm loyal to.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2019, 06:55:41 AM
Now that I can finally post... I feel I'd fill everyone in on what I've done! I went ahead and bought a Weber. Well, way more than that.

I bought a Weber 32/36, with the manual choke. Installed really easily earlier today.
Haven't started the truck up yet.

Now, I know the Weber 2 piece adapter is just junk, nothing can be done. So I went ahead and bought a Offenhauser intake manifold. I went with the single plane one. I prepped the gaskets on the 2 piece adapters with a fuel safe gasket sealer. Instructions say to use a sealer/grease. I didn't use anything on where the carb mounts to the adapter.

This clears up the issue with the carb adapter, and it flows more. Flow isn't a leading cause for me to buy it, since my stock exhaust/unported head means it won't really add any power.
I also am sure my intake manifold may be leaking, if I saturate the underside of the intake manifold it stumbled slightly. Not sure if it was a random stumble or not. Either way, I'm excited to get the new intake.

Now, tuning is one of the most trickiest parts for getting the Weber to run properly. So I bought a Air Fuel ratio gauge from Glowshift gauges. It'll require me to weld a 02 sensor in the exhaust, but it's worth the troubles. This will allow me to FULLY tune this carb and get it running how it should! I'm very happy I took everyone's advice!
I bought a high altitude jet kit so I can tune it beyond adjusting the screws. I'm at 4200' which is considered high altitude for the stock jet in the carb.

I got a few more odds and ends, a fuel pressure gauge/regulator. And the install kit for the intake, as it requires me to plumb the heater lines different. No biggie.


What do you all think? Good choice? Thanks for the helpful advice. While the forum was down, I started a write up on Pirate4x4 and have gotten nothing but crap from what I've spent and done to this truck. Guess I know which forum I'm loyal to.

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Hey T,

Great job!  :beerchug:

I really appreciate you sharing your experiences.  To me THAT is major part of this type of forum!   :yesnod:

We, the small number of people who are early Toyota owners, are true automotive hobbiests.

On the Weber, I think you have some good people here to pull information from.  I know that H8PVMNT has done extensive carb "testing and tweaking".  :thumbs:

It's very smart get an AFR gauge.  I ran Webers for 8 years on 3 sand rails... I have my own opinions on Webers.  :gap:

Performance turning in elevations above sea level has its own challenges.  H8PVMNT is at about 3400 feet, so he has experience that he may want to share on his similar challenges... just my observations.  There are some great posts he has made in the past.  :biggthumpup:

What octane fuel are you burning?  :driving:

With your dedication, tenacity, and knowledge, you will get there!   :crossed:

On Pirate.... been there.  Dealing with the constant berating and pure pathetically idiotic vilifying is a waste of good time.  There are some golden nuggets of info there but stepping through the piles of Bravo Sierra is irritating to say the least.  :twocents:

Posting and sharing good information on Pirate is sometimes appreciated about as much as a nasty hemorroid.  :thumbdown:

Gnarls - that's just my opinion - it may be useless, worthless, and simply pomp 'n stink.  :dunno:




Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Mar 10, 2019, 07:36:35 AM
The 32/36 is jetted towards the lean side in its stock form, so I advise to try it as is as a baseline before tuning. You will want between 12 and 13:1 at WOT, ideal being 12.5-12.8:1. At cruising highway, around 15-15.5:1, and idle being whatever it likes best, usually pretty rich. I suggest playing with the timing at they seem to like a bit more than stock at around 8btdc initial. Any a/f change above 4000rpms it made with the air correctors, and below that with the main jets. A good recommended float setting is 18mm & 28mm for a weber 38 at least. Thanks for sharing your project with us!  :beerchug:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2019, 11:07:54 AM
The 32/36 is jetted towards the lean side in its stock form, so I advise to try it as is as a baseline before tuning. You will want between 12 and 13:1 at WOT, ideal being 12.5-12.8:1. At cruising highway, around 15-15.5:1, and idle being whatever it likes best, usually pretty rich. I suggest playing with the timing at they seem to like a bit more than stock at around 8btdc initial. Any a/f change above 4000rpms it made with the air correctors, and below that with the main jets. A good recommended float setting is 18mm & 28mm for a weber 38 at least. Thanks for sharing your project with us!  :beerchug:

Hey G...   :beerchug:

There ya go!!  THAT is a GOLDEN NUGGET!!  :thumbs:

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2019, 11:19:27 AM
I will add a tid-bit of my experience with Weber carbs…

They are very sensitive about “cleanliness”!

I sand railed in the sand and dusty environment, so I learned to make sure my Weber was happy breathing “bad” air at times.  Ingesting even the tiniest piece of dust or sand would upset my Weber.

I had 2 external inline fuel filters from the gas tank to carb.

I spent lots of time cleaning the air filters and air filter canister and carb mount, and making sure the ambient air supply was filtered and the air cleaner was sealed well.

During my sand railing days I only have about 8 years of experience with air filters, and especially K&N.  I have posted a number of times my experience with K&N air filters and I’m not a big fan the them for a number of very good reasons, based upon MY particular experiences.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 10, 2019, 11:52:07 AM
She's alive! Well, she was.
All I had to do today was route the choke cable, and install the air cleaner.

I chose an easy location for the choke cable, next to the E-brake handle. I routed the line itself out thru the speedometer cable grommet, and up and around to the carb. I did end up trimming the length, which was also easy. Choke works great, full movement no binding.

I am having an issue with the air cleaner, seems when I tighten down the 4 bolts the center of it rises up, which is a gap. I'll include a picture below. Not sure what I'll do yet, I may make a very thick gasket out of a fuel safe material to help seal that up. Or maybe I'm doing it wrong?

The first startup was easy, with the choke on I cranked until it fired up. Ran out to the engine bay and got it to idle, and idle pretty good. Following the idle jet adjustment parameters (how much the screw has to be turned in after setting it), I found that my idle jet was a bit too lean. The primary idle jet was already a 50, while the secondary was a 55. 50 is my smallest size, so I put the 50 in the secondary. I'll know for sure if this is proper once my AFR gauge is installed.

Fuel pressure regulator adjustment was a snap! 12mm acorn nut on top, and a lock nut on the bottom of the adjustment screw. I had to fiddle will the screw before it'd make a change on the gauge, but I got it set exactly at 3psi.

First drive was good, seem to have a slight hesitation once you take off, which will be addressed with the AFR gauge so I can further tune it. I'm guessing it may be too rich.

Got back, and checked for vacuum leaks. Doh! It has one. Yep, my stupid two piece adapter is leaking. Even my measures of adding a gasket sealer to the gaskets (per the instructions) didn't work. No biggie, the Offenhauser will be here Tuesday! I may not get it done until the weekend, since I don't wanna rush the install. I'm very excited to hear it rip (through the stock restrictive exhaust)

Any recommendations for the air cleaner issue? I can't really afford a fancy one right now. Plus, the stock one looks so cool!

I was amazed at how fast it started once it's warmed up, THIS is what I love already about it.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 10, 2019, 11:53:30 AM
I will add a tid-bit of my experience with Weber carbs…

They are very sensitive about “cleanliness”!

I sand railed in the sand and dusty environment, so I learned to make sure my Weber was happy breathing “bad” air at times.  Ingesting even the tiniest piece of dust or sand would upset my Weber.

I had 2 external inline fuel filters from the gas tank to carb.

I spent lots of time cleaning the air filters and air filter canister and carb mount, and making sure the ambient air supply was filtered and the air cleaner was sealed well.

During my sand railing days I only have about 8 years of experience with air filters, and especially K&N.  I have posted a number of times my experience with K&N air filters and I’m not a big fan the them for a number of very good reasons, based upon MY particular experiences.

Gnarls.
Thank you for the advice. Yeah, I'm not keen on dropping nearly $200 on the K&N filter from LCE. Not worth it. I'd plumb a snorkel for that price!

For the clean fuel, I DID replace the fuel filter when I rebuilt the motor. But, I think it could totally use a clean one. I was thinking of running my second one in line after the fuel pump before the regulator.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 10, 2019, 11:58:32 AM
The 32/36 is jetted towards the lean side in its stock form, so I advise to try it as is as a baseline before tuning. You will want between 12 and 13:1 at WOT, ideal being 12.5-12.8:1. At cruising highway, around 15-15.5:1, and idle being whatever it likes best, usually pretty rich. I suggest playing with the timing at they seem to like a bit more than stock at around 8btdc initial. Any a/f change above 4000rpms it made with the air correctors, and below that with the main jets. A good recommended float setting is 18mm & 28mm for a weber 38 at least. Thanks for sharing your project with us!  :beerchug:
Thank you for the tips! I was curious what the readings should be for the AFR, now I know. LC engineering was off on the website about the jet size, but no biggie.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 10, 2019, 10:07:42 PM
I think you will like the Weber.  Get yourself a range of jets and air correctors and you will be able to tune out any hesitations or flat spots. There will even be a jet for your secondary that makes it hammer down if you want it too, or the next one leaner will save a little gas. On your air cleaner plate, I would take it off and flatten it out on an anvil or something and then just don't tighten the nuts down so hard.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 11, 2019, 08:19:50 AM
I think you will like the Weber.  Get yourself a range of jets and air correctors and you will be able to tune out any hesitations or flat spots. There will even be a jet for your secondary that makes it hammer down if you want it too, or the next one leaner will save a little gas. On your air cleaner plate, I would take it off and flatten it out on an anvil or something and then just don't tighten the nuts down so hard.
Thanks for the tips! I've got a pretty good jet kit already, but I may need to get some more. We will have to see... MPG is important! What MPG do you see on your Weber? I saw your YouTube video of the Hill climb with the Weber, impressive!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Mar 11, 2019, 11:32:14 AM
Great tech here on this thread! I'm also casually thinking about Weberizing my truck for the mileage (it's likely going to see thousands of miles this summer), and I greatly appreciate your time and effort to document stuff.

I'll also be keeping my ears peeled for news on the mileage of the Weber vs Aisin carbs
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 12, 2019, 10:47:21 AM
Great tech here on this thread! I'm also casually thinking about Weberizing my truck for the mileage (it's likely going to see thousands of miles this summer), and I greatly appreciate your time and effort to document stuff.

I'll also be keeping my ears peeled for news on the mileage of the Weber vs Aisin carbs
Hey, same plan for this summer! One of the reasons I wanted the Weber, extremely reliable. And, tune for better mpg!


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 12, 2019, 10:54:57 AM
The intake arrived! Really happy with it and it's not even on the truck yet. I've heard of casting errors with these so I went ahead and threaded everything in to make sure everything is right before I install it.

One thing I noted, the factory temp gauge will have to move! Not a biggie. Literally everything on this will be plugged off aside from the brake booster hookup, and my factory and mechanical temp gauge. I'll include a pic below of where I'm placing what.

LCE also goofed and sent me extra water block plates, when you order the intake and intake install kit, they send you extra. I'll have to call and let them know. I didn't pay extra for them, so I'll put them up on the forum here for free.

Real stoked to get started. One thing I've considered, the fenderwell has tons of wires and whatnot going to the intake in the stock configuration (choke wiring, thermo sensors...).
Since I'm using the Weber carb, I have no need for any of it. I'm debating clipping the connectors (a little ways into the harness) and saving them in case this truck ever goes a different direction. That, or I'll just find a way to tuck the harness and make it look better.

Just needs a billet plug wire holder! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/477ba806ab8c4d7b264bbe2b58a148c8.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/f03ee9000fcd9296d6b278b0eb1bf717.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/b663282c64efd238d13a528427cb0214.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 12, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/b663282c64efd238d13a528427cb0214.jpg

Are you sure that is where the mechanical water temp gauge sender goes?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 12, 2019, 11:23:51 AM
Are you sure that is where the mechanical water temp gauge goes?

Gnarls.
Yep, that's where I have it on my stock intake. No leaks. Fits great.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 12, 2019, 05:20:48 PM
Got the old intake manifold removed and everything cleaned up for the install. The intake gasket was a little baked on, but I made quick work of it with a razor blade. Being very careful to not gouge the surface. There's a few dark spots here and there, where I believe the gasket cooked itself into the metal, surface feels great so I'm not too worried.
Got the timing cover block plate installed too.

The heater hose line will run from the bottom of that intake plate to the heater core itself. Curious if the heat will be any different in terms of temp. Not super happy to block coolant flow, but I'm sure it'll be fine.

The bottom intake plate looks awesome, LCE recommended to use silicone on the bolts to prevent leaks. I ended up using "The right stuff", I also smeared a thin layer on the gasket.

I'll have to ditch the fuel Hardline on the bottom of the manifold, but I'll just run some rubber line.

Stoked to get started on the install, it's gonna snow tomorrow so I'll have to wait. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190313/c3653a58c6c7bc2d1ae1d16150b36878.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190313/dfbb969b9fe0ef7acf33e9cc18f7c31f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190313/dd2ff1f1380f36ac5338c015768f100c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 15, 2019, 07:31:32 PM
Finally installed the intake! It was really easy, dare I say quite fun. As I mentioned, I plumbed the heater core line differently than stock since I blocked off the passenger cover timing cover. The heat is fantastic. Burping the cooling system took a bit, but the heat is nice and hot now, no bubbles from what I can tell.

I had a few leaks with the shoulder straight plugs that go in a few of the holes at first, snugged them up. The stock temp sensor was leaking no matter what, I used Teflon tape on the threads but it still leaked. I just removed it for now. The mechanical gauge as expected works great, so I have no need for the inaccurate stock one.

No vacuum leaks that I can find, I can finally start the tuning process. I need to get the air cleaner issue fixed and then I can start driving it. Super stoked. It starts up so incredibly quickly. Love the Weber. I've had countless people tell me how dumb and stupid I am for installing this carb, but I am so happy that I did.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190316/63aa3d91093696886e0e7f9b398b4977.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190316/f7a940ef913509376ea3a2f6a2106eab.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 16, 2019, 05:02:56 AM
Finally installed the intake! It was really easy......

Super stoked. It starts up so incredibly quickly. Love the Weber...

I've had countless people tell me how dumb and stupid I am for installing this carb, but I am so happy that I did.


Hey T....

Glad you got it installed.  :beerchug:

Reads like you have your rebuild finally at the stage where you get to enjoy the tweaking and tuning part.  :gap:

As you have discovered, everyone has an opinion but when you do a reality check and find out for yourself, you'll have a different attitude about what "countless people" tell you.

I suggest you check and recheck the mounting bolts on that intake manifold, it hangs off the side of the block with very little extra support.  :thumbs:

I really enjoy following your project.  :driving:

Gnarls.  :biggthumpup:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 16, 2019, 07:10:22 AM
Hey T....

Glad you got it installed.  :beerchug:

Reads like you have your rebuild finally at the stage where you get to enjoy the tweaking and tuning part.  :gap:

As you have discovered, everyone has an opinion but when you do a reality check and find out for yourself, you'll have a different attitude about what "countless people" tell you.

I suggest you check and recheck the mounting bolts on that intake manifold, it hangs off the side of the block with very little extra support.  :thumbs:

I really enjoy following your project.  :driving:

Gnarls.  :biggthumpup:
Thanks Gnarls. I plan to check and re-torque those bolts frequently. I am using a stud kit instead of the stock setup of a few studs and then bolts, which I imagine would help spread the load out. Let's see...

The RE motors have that cross bar that goes from the intake to the block, maybe I'll weld up something similar.

I am thinking I'll get some thick gasket paper and make my own carb to air cleaner gasket, I want it as air tight as possible.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 16, 2019, 12:33:33 PM
Cork would be nice with a little grease on it.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 17, 2019, 10:10:45 AM
Took the truck out for a test to see if anything leaks.
Darn thing drives great, a little lacking of power when I step on it (Needs to be fully tuned) but it's absolutely driveable.

As H8PVMNT Suggested, I went ahead and made a cork gasket for the air cleaner. Really easy to do, trace and cut. Seems to be sealing good, added grease to both sides to help it seal even better.

I do have a few small antifreeze leaks. All from fittings. The heater core line is leaking, the bottom intake plate with the Barb. Not sure why, I added a hose clamp and made sure it was snug. I'll have to investigate that more.
Both of the "shouldered" plugs in the intake are also leaking, I added some Teflon thread tape to help seal it, but that didn't do anything. I'm wondering if these plugs need a sealant at all? Some of the plugs in the kit from LCE have sealant, so that leads me to believe that they don't need it?

Temp sensor adapter is leaking slightly too, I'll snug it up and see if it changes.

The truck started running warmer on my way home from my test drive, I'm almost certain it's a cooling system bubble. The gauge will fluctuate between 180-200 at idle. Sounds like an air bubble to me. No biggie, spill free funnels make it easy!

I also bought a set of spark plugs, I figured while I wait to get the AFR gauge installed I'll check the plugs every fill-up to see if it's running overly rich or lean. Since I'm at a high elevation it would be running rich, so my MPG would take a hit if it is running rich.

Fun fun fun! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190317/96b5310a846e5c8691edf4ef768e3c1a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190317/a557a9e214bff26716cba8c4b03b4bfb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190317/db701054ede095010c1e93e17c1738f1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190317/8b5483953a1992d8b4ec1f77ad77aa04.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 17, 2019, 04:08:36 PM
Been fighting with this leaking coolant line for the last few hours. No matter what I do, it still leaks. I tried two hose clamps, still leaks. Oriented the clamp in different locations, still leaks.
I can't drive this thing until I get this fixed, it's really frustrating me. Different style of clamp? Heat is kinda important, likewise I'd like to keep it.
Getting close to just letting this truck sit for awhile, I am moving halfway across the country in a month and I can't just keep pouring money into it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190317/bcadeb3e7b36767f820da694a8ea6c10.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: toyodaaddict on Mar 17, 2019, 07:03:51 PM
Try a factory toyota hose clamp. Ive had issues with the kind of clamps you're using a couple of times (dont know why) and a toyota clamp fixed it.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 17, 2019, 08:21:16 PM
Use a fuel injection hose clamp
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 17, 2019, 08:23:10 PM
Use a fuel injection hose clamp
That's what I was thinking, since they hold a larger pressure it would absolutely hold.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 18, 2019, 12:43:05 PM
Fixed the leak! I ditched the stupid barbed fitting and got an actual heater hose adapter.
I'm guessing the barbed fitting just doesn't like a hose clamp on it, less area to seal around. I went with a heater hose fitting from O'Reilly's, 3/8NPT male to a 5/8 male hose connection. I used a 3/8npt male to 3/8npt female to get the hose in the right direction. So far, no leaks. Driven it around a bit and haven't seen a drop. I'll probably get fuel injection style clamps for everything on this truck, good suggestion emsvitil!

Not necessarily ideal to have adapters in adapters, more potential leak paths. But, I'll keep an eye on it.

Getting the 02 sensor installed on Thursday, then I can properly tune it. The truck already drives exceptionally well, so I'll continue to drive it until then.

I WAS originally planning to drive this truck when I move, but I'm just gonna ship it. Salt Lake to Vancouver is too far to have something go wrong.
That means I'll be spending close to $1500 on shipping both my rigs. Worth it!

Thanks again for all the help and advice everyone. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190318/77ab7f3d4c33e8120f480f0f3a7dc775.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190318/2ad077c2630e2b5d368ca33cf2cbfac6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190318/8b87046c8d8968f3fec38f48716cd9f5.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 18, 2019, 06:53:37 PM
Hey T...

Glad you are getting the bugs worked out... you are getting smarter by the day!  :gap:

SLC to V is probably around 800 miles.  Unless you have a time constraint, I wouldn't worry about your truck.

With that said... having it transported is not a bad idea. 

I have some words of caution for you - I have very close long time friends who have lived and traveled extensively, mostly in USA, Mexico, South America, and Central America.  They have shipped their stuff all over, in containers,  freight trucking, and by ship etc.  :greengrin:

Advice:  Be sure you completely understand any and all liabilities and risks and WHO will be responsible for a potential accident or other event that causes you a loss. Make sure the shipping company has an excellent and credible reputation.  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :yesnod:



Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 11:43:35 AM
Hey T...

Glad you are getting the bugs worked out... you are getting smarter by the day!  :gap:

SLC to V is probably around 800 miles.  Unless you have a time constraint, I wouldn't worry about your truck.

With that said... having it transported is not a bad idea. 

I have some words of caution for you - I have very close long time friends who have lived and traveled extensively, mostly in USA, Mexico, South America, and Central America.  They have shipped their stuff all over, in containers,  freight trucking, and by ship etc.  :greengrin:

Advice:  Be sure you completely understand any and all liabilities and risks and WHO will be responsible for a potential accident or other event that causes you a loss. Make sure the shipping company has an excellent and credible reputation.  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :yesnod:
I'll have to do some thorough research on the companies and see. Thanks for this piece of advice!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 11:43:39 AM
Hey T...

Glad you are getting the bugs worked out... you are getting smarter by the day!  :gap:

SLC to V is probably around 800 miles.  Unless you have a time constraint, I wouldn't worry about your truck.

With that said... having it transported is not a bad idea. 

I have some words of caution for you - I have very close long time friends who have lived and traveled extensively, mostly in USA, Mexico, South America, and Central America.  They have shipped their stuff all over, in containers,  freight trucking, and by ship etc.  :greengrin:

Advice:  Be sure you completely understand any and all liabilities and risks and WHO will be responsible for a potential accident or other event that causes you a loss. Make sure the shipping company has an excellent and credible reputation.  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :yesnod:
I'll have to do some thorough research on the companies and see. Thanks for this piece of advice!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 11:48:45 AM
Maybe some of you might be able to help me with a temp gremlin I'm having. Or not having.

I have a Japanese 190° thermostat in my truck, which I believe is the stock temp rating for the factory T-stat.

My truck seems to be idling around 195-205°, is this normal? My instincts tell me no. I've burped the system thoroughly, jacked the front end up, used a fancy spill free funnel. Pulling into my driveway after driving it, it climbed to 210°, but immediately went down. Stock radiator, cleaned very well. Either my gauge is wrong, or something else is. Could this be a cause of having blocked off the coolant passages with the block plates? It's 55° outside, it shouldn't be this warm I'd think...

It usually sits and goes up and down between 195° to 203° or so. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190319/ce52cc25a42034033b2720c180ae004a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190319/576661ace6fe0dd6bd0aab4af498f555.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 19, 2019, 12:19:30 PM
Post#354 from BestGen
Good job. I think it looks great.
Your going to be amazed at how much more active the mechanical temp gauge is when compared to the stock Moron gauge (similar to an idiot light but in the gauge form). I will tell you not to be alarmed this summer when you see higher temps on your gauge than expected. I see mine go up to 210+ on occasion when pulling a long steep hill.
This is completely normal just not show by the stock moron gauge.
  :twocents:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Post#354 from BestGen
Good job. I think it looks great.
Your going to be amazed at how much more active the mechanical temp gauge is when compared to the stock Moron gauge (similar to an idiot light but in the gauge form). I will tell you not to be alarmed this summer when you see higher temps on your gauge than expected. I see mine go up to 210 on occasion when pulling a long steep hill.
This is completely normal just not show by the stock moron gauge.
  :twocents:
I remembered that exact thing, but I felt it didn't apply. I'm not taking it up any huge hills, so I felt that it should be lower. Could be wrong though, I sometimes am!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 12:28:49 PM
Straight from the FSM:

in regards to the thermostat

Valve opening temperature: 86 – 90 °C (187 – 194 °F)

It fully opens at 212°. I've never seen it go past this. Which I'd say is good, it means that the thermostat fully opens and circulates coolant.
Before I swapped intakes, the upper rad hose would be nearly rock hard, now it's soft.
I'd be hard pressed to find air in the system, I jacked the front up high and ran it for 20 mins with the funnel connected. And a few minutes after shutting it off at idling temp, I could remove the rad cap. It wasn't hot at all. Interesting.


I love figuring this stuff out.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 19, 2019, 02:04:22 PM
22re Performance
dual stage OE thermostat

This is a factory thermostat that was created to solve a certain cooling system problem on 22r/22re called "temperature overshoot". It's still a 190 degree thermostat like the original, but it has a second, smaller wax slug to help out under certain circumstances.

ready? OK, time to get get bored.... Sometimes when using the heater, the interior fan will drop the temp of the coolant below normal operating temp. The "cooled" water that just came out of the heater core then travels past the thermostat causing the thermostat to close, because it "thinks" the coolant needs to get back up to normal operating temp. This causes your temp gauge to show overheating or wild fluctuations.

So, as you can see, it's a pretty specific problem that it's trying to solve. As a daily driver, without this issue, I still recommend the regular OE thermostat I sell. If you are having this above issue, this could be the fix for it.

I've been hesitant to add this to the site only for the reason I didn't want people buying it for the wrong reasons (thinking it'll fix their faulty cooling system). You guys are smart enough to know when you need it, so I'll leave it up to you.


I have a copy of the TSB from the 80's if anyone wants to see the Toyota technical side. (bestGen)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 03:07:30 PM
22re Performance
dual stage OE thermostat

This is a factory thermostat that was created to solve a certain cooling system problem on 22r/22re called "temperature overshoot". It's still a 190 degree thermostat like the original, but it has a second, smaller wax slug to help out under certain circumstances.

ready? OK, time to get get bored.... Sometimes when using the heater, the interior fan will drop the temp of the coolant below normal operating temp. The "cooled" water that just came out of the heater core then travels past the thermostat causing the thermostat to close, because it "thinks" the coolant needs to get back up to normal operating temp. This causes your temp gauge to show overheating or wild fluctuations.

So, as you can see, it's a pretty specific problem that it's trying to solve. As a daily driver, without this issue, I still recommend the regular OE thermostat I sell. If you are having this above issue, this could be the fix for it.

I've been hesitant to add this to the site only for the reason I didn't want people buying it for the wrong reasons (thinking it'll fix their faulty cooling system). You guys are smart enough to know when you need it, so I'll leave it up to you.


I have a copy of the TSB from the 80's if anyone wants to see the Toyota technical side. (bestGen)
The overshoot is what I've thought it might be. I'll have to invest in the later model thermostat.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 03:08:59 PM
Just got off the phone with Wes over at LC engineering. He told me it's completely normal for the engine temp to fluctuate from 180-210. Makes sense, this is about the operating range.

My gauge never goes above 210°. I'll just drive the truck and see. I expect it won't climb above 210° if it hasn't. I'll just start driving and enjoying it!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 04:23:51 PM
When taking the truck out, the temp was fine and then immediately went up to above 220 while driving. The needle was also very shaky. I'm guessing the damn gauge is broken, there's no reason that I can think of that would lead this engine to run this damn hot, especially when it's 55° out and it's moving.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Mar 19, 2019, 04:26:43 PM
On my 20/22r, the first time I ran it I had a 22re thermostat which was I think 195f, and the temperature would fluctuate up to 210f which I thought was a little high too. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 22r uses a 185f thermostat. Since I put that in the temperature stays at 185f-190f on the road and rarely above 200f even in the trails in the summer. I do have a taurus electric fan with an adjustable controller that turns on at 200 or so
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 19, 2019, 08:13:00 PM
My 1985 22R ran at 190 to 200 all the time.  In the summer it could go to 210.  I had an AutoMeter mechanical temp gauge.

The temperature rating on t-stat is the temperature that it *begins* to open.  T-stats are typically fully open between 15 and 20 degrees above the rated temperature.  Toyota specs a 190d F t-stat.  It begins to open at 190d F and is full open at 212d F.

Installing a lower rated temperature t-stat than spec'd by the auto maker may cause issues with the ECU.

It better to install the spec'd t-stat temp rating.

Installing a lower temperature rated t-stat only lowers the beginning opening of the t-stat, it still will be full open at  15 to 20 degrees above it's rated temperature.

Stant's SuperStat t-stats may provided extra flow based upon their patented Weir valve design.

Here's a factory part:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/OEM-Toyota-Thermostat-90916-03078/647969343?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=14117&adid=22222222227135785386&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=244223852551&wl4=pla-455260784767&wl5=9030125&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=118770675&wl11=online&wl12=647969343&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhZy3ud6P4QIVwh-tBh0ouwNIEAQYBSABEgJC3PD_BwE

Here's the Aisin 190 Degree:  https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7588520&cc=1277300&jsn=406

Here's the Gate 190 Degree:  https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1145455&cc=1277300&jsn=408


Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 08:16:26 PM
My 1985 22R ran a 190 to 200 all the time.  In the summer it could go to 210.  I had an AutoMeter mechanical temp gauge.

The temperature rating on t-stat is the temperature that it *begins* to open.  T-stats are typically fully open between 15 and 20 degrees above the rated temperature.  Toyota specs a 190d F t-stat.  It begins to open at 190d F and is full open at 212d F.

Installing a lower rated temperature t-stat than spec'd by the auto maker may cause issues with the ECU.

It better to install the spec'd t-stat temp rating.

Installing a lower temperature rated t-stat only lowers the beginning opening of the t-stat, it still will be full open at  15 to 20 degrees above it's rated temperature.

Stant's SuperStat t-stats may provided extra flow based upon their patented Weir valve design.

Here's a factory part:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/OEM-Toyota-Thermostat-90916-03078/647969343?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=14117&adid=22222222227135785386&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=244223852551&wl4=pla-455260784767&wl5=9030125&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=118770675&wl11=online&wl12=647969343&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhZy3ud6P4QIVwh-tBh0ouwNIEAQYBSABEgJC3PD_BwE

Here's the Aisin 190 Degree:  https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7588520&cc=1277300&jsn=406

Here's the Gate 190 Degree:  https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1145455&cc=1277300&jsn=408


Gnarls.
Hey Gnarls, I'm running a 190° thermostat already. Since I have no ECU, I could go to a 180° thermostat according to others.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 08:19:45 PM
Well, I'm almost certain it's just air trapped in the system. I pulled the cap off and let it set for an hour. The antifreeze level dropped. I'm gonna let it set overnight and see how much it drops.
Tomorrow I'll also install the stock temp sender and get that hooked up, not that it'll do anything for the situation at hand.

I know I can get this fixed, just a matter of finding out how!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 19, 2019, 08:25:04 PM
Well, I'm almost certain it's just air trapped in the system. I pulled the cap off and let it set for an hour. The antifreeze level dropped. I'm gonna let it set overnight and see how much it drops.
Tomorrow I'll also install the stock temp sender and get that hooked up, not that it'll do anything for the situation at hand.

I know I can get this fixed, just a matter of finding out how!

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I doubt you have any air trapped in the system.  The coolant level will drop as it cools.. normal.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 19, 2019, 08:29:29 PM
I doubt you have any air trapped in the system.  The coolant level will drop as it cools.. normal.

Gnarls.
Maybe you're right, I guess I'll find out tomorrow!

If all else fails, I'll do a complete system flush. And a new radiator. If that doesn't work, I'll sell it and buy a Yugo.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 20, 2019, 05:10:23 PM
Three steps forward... Five steps back...

Today I burped the cooling system even more, and got even more bubble to come up. I topped it off when they seemed to stop coming. So I went and drove it around. At first, it was totally fine. The temp would go up to around 195°, and come back down to 180° ish.  Constant fluctuation, even while driving.

The stock gauge always stayed at the below half mark.

Drove around a little more, and it climbed to 230°!
The stock gauge still registered the same (little below half) the temp subsided as I pulled over. On my way home (2 or so miles away) it never went to that temp.

I just got done testing the mechanical gauge, set my camp stove up close to the truck and heated water up. The mechanical temp gauge works fine, I compared it with a kitchen thermometer (the kind for liquids) The temp was nearly spot on. So the mechanical works.

The stock must not then? The stock gauge will slowly creep up to the normal below half mark at around 150°.


What the hell could be going on here? The fan didn't come on at all. It's 65° out. But that shouldn't matter, it should come on if it hit 230° Fan clutch is off a properly running truck.
It's 20° warmer out compared to the last few weeks. The warmest this year that this engine has experienced. Leads me to question wether this is a problem that's existed since day one that's been exaggerated recently with the rise in outside temp.

Radiator is the one that came with the truck, off the bad motor, that I flushed thoroughly (not enough?)
Heater core was flushed with CLR (and vinegar)
The Heat is incredible.

New thermostat (190°, Japanese made)

At this point, I don't feel safe driving the truck if it's reaching temperature this high. I do not believe any damage has been done, the temp immediately went back down like it always does. While test driving, I removed the hood to see if I could watch the overflow tank to see if it grew in capacity, which it did following it warming up. And went back down after letting it set. So the rad cap should be working properly...

I can get a new aluminum 3 core Tig welded radiology on eBay for $120, I've heard fantastic things about them (good ratings too)
Should I just start replacing everything that I didn't during the rebuild?

I'll start with the Rad, Rad cap, New fan clutch (even though I'm not sure this is the issue). What else? Am I missing anything? Thorough system flush?
I could have the rad shop check it out, but that would be $100 for them to Rod it (de-solder/clean). At that rate, might as well buy a nicer one.

Thing is, I don't remember this being an issue with the old intake manifold. I had the mechanical gauges installed then, too. I didn't record the temp, it was normal.
Tomorrow I'm going to test the dummy gauge given the FSM parameters, I'll also drain the coolant from the rad and remove and test the thermostat.
Willing to bet it's the Radiator, why? The temp fluctuates at speed and at idle. A potential blockage may produce these symptoms?

Really stumped, I'm getting to the point that I can't just keep dumping money into this thing.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 21, 2019, 03:55:26 AM
Well it's not going to hurt anything to upgrade your radiator.  I have had slight hot issues that fooled me before with a limp or lame fan clutch.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 21, 2019, 08:28:10 AM
Well it's not going to hurt anything to upgrade your radiator.  I have had slight hot issues that fooled me before with a limp or lame fan clutch.
That's what my thought process was, the rad is old... Might as well get a new one.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 21, 2019, 08:30:32 AM
Here's what I ended up purchasing. Aluminum three row radiator. Supposed to be a direct fit.
I've heard of people having good luck with these. Comes with a rad cap too (won't be using if it's over 13psi) reviews seem great.

I may couple it with a 180° thermostat. I'll see what this does, first. Thinking about it, it almost makes sense that it could be a plugged radiator.

When I start the truck from cold, up to operating temp, the temperature fluctuates a lot less than if I then go drive it and let it idle. Like the coolant gets warm to the point the rad can no longer efficiently cool it. Lower rad hose was never cold, but was warm. Guess we will see what this does.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190321/da48aeb4710694d809d4ca86dc007ed0.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 21, 2019, 02:31:23 PM
Even more setbacks...

Looks like the intake will have to come off again. The center block plate on the cylinder head is leaking. Never drips, just seeps. Don't really get why, I used a new gasket and block plate, and I cleaned all the surfaces. I ordered a Toyota intake gasket from 22RE  performance. This one has silicone beads around the coolant passages, which from what I understand is how it's supposed to be. The one I used from LC engineering, didn't.

I tested the temp sender outside the truck, I heated coolant to around 225°, and it had no effect on the temp gauge. Stayed at the same place. So the stock one isn't true, knew that already.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190321/72bca01d513503e9845db6ac6f0eac92.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190321/a305a9f8902fa6347c79cd2a5d70ffa5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190321/364b0fc786a1d8311cb0a6a72123eab2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190321/a6fa31d57d5e6d2a25db5f9b470fa600.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 21, 2019, 03:25:56 PM
You will be fine after the new gasket. Toyota factory parts for the win! Again  :smack:
So what Your saying is? The factory gauge is worthless until your on the side of the road overheating?
Me :slap: Jesse
Boy I know I sure wouldn't trust it to give any accurate information. Sounds like a moron gauge to Me.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 21, 2019, 04:30:06 PM
You will be fine after the new gasket. Toyota factory parts for the win! Again  :smack:
So what Your saying is? The factory gauge is worthless until your on the side of the road overheating?
Me :slap: Jesse
Boy I know I sure wouldn't trust it to give any accurate information. Sounds like a moron gauge to Me.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I was only testing it to see if it fluctuated with the temp increase. Nope. Glad I have my mechanical.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 21, 2019, 09:55:55 PM
I think the experiment was awesome.
I like Definitive answers.
Now all the moron gauge people know it’s worthless until overheating and should consider a mechanic gauge and a gauge pillar.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 21, 2019, 10:35:52 PM
I think the experiment was awesome.
I like Definitive answers.
Now all the moron gauge people know it’s worthless until overheating and should consider a mechanic gauge and a gauge pillar.
Unfortunately some will still swear by their stock gauges. Much like I did, before I took the advice.

The two things I've learned here that I will pass on.

Get a Mechanical temp gauge, and a Weber.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 22, 2019, 05:24:44 AM
I think the experiment was awesome.
I like Definitive answers.
Now all the moron gauge people know it’s worthless until overheating and should consider a mechanic gauge and a gauge pillar.

I’ve installed a mechanical water temp gauge and an ammeter (registers amps) in every truck I’ve owned except my current ’86 (yes bgen, I was a moron!)…. If I had a mechanical water temp gauge installed like my other trucks, I probably would not have toasted the engine when it ran low on coolant due to a sudden water pump failure.  :smack:

Since catastrophic failure of these engines due to over-heating is historical and is arguably  the most discussed topic of any topic, it’s interesting why anyone, who owns a vehicle with one of these early Toy engines, would NOT spend the money and time to install a quality mechanical water temp gauge instead 100’s or 1000’s of dollars on bling.  :shake_head:

I don’t think you need to read Toybrota’s “experiment” to know about that facts on head, head gasket, and over heating failure issues with these engines…. Since the late 70’s?... about 30 or 40 years!  :dunno:

By the way, installing gauges anywhere other than the driver’s direct line of sight is practically worthless.   ???

This is my favorite 270 degree sweep gauge:  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-3432?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-autometer&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpLmzmtmV4QIV-R6tBh3OEAE4EAYYBCABEgLVdvD_BwE    :thumbs:


Gnarls.   :gap:

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 22, 2019, 07:26:43 AM
This is how I like it. I also prefer the same temp gauge just in a different color.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: cbeers on Mar 22, 2019, 08:40:04 AM
Could you still fit an internal cage Chris?  If yes, would the faces still be visible?

CB
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 22, 2019, 08:44:05 AM
Could you still fit an internal cage Chris?  If yes, would the faces still be visible?

CB
I don't think so. Plan is for exo in the future. :thumbs:
If I was going to do an internal cage I would locate the gauges here.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 22, 2019, 12:06:38 PM
.... Plan is for exo in the future. :thumbs:  ....

OH NO..... NOT AN EXO!!!  Please don't do it!  :willynilly:

Gnarls. :yikes:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 22, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
OH NO..... NOT AN EXO!!!  Please don't do it!  :willynilly:

Gnarls. :yikes:
How come you don't like em? I could understand either way, definitely a look that's different. Not sure I would. I Appreciate the functionality and safety of an exo though. Other truck might get a partial one.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 22, 2019, 12:24:42 PM
I think the half inner, half outer cages look the best. Hybrid exo...
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 22, 2019, 12:35:16 PM
I plan to copy this almost exact.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 22, 2019, 03:58:15 PM
You can fix the stock temp gauge...

https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=47792.msg599053#msg599053


google 'Toyota temp gauge mod'
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 22, 2019, 06:58:51 PM
You can fix the stock temp gauge...

https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=47792.msg599053#msg599053


google 'Toyota temp gauge mod'

emsvitil...

Are you serious!!  Holy hot  ca-ca!!  It would take me 3 hours just to figure out what the hell that guy said and how to apply it!! 

When it's all "fixed" it is STILL a 30 degree sweep non-readable temperature number!!

I'll rather buy an Autometer gauge and install it!!

That's just me.

Now...it is really cool that someone figured out some incredible piece of electronic modification, and went to all the trouble to post it.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 23, 2019, 05:05:53 AM
How come you don't like em?


Well... here's a 1/2 dozen reasons that pop out of my mind based upon about 20 years of wheeling.

1.   Adding 300 to 400 lbs. to a rock crawler requires more power/torque to move - just adding to potential failures, raises center of gravity making rollovers more likely.

2.   There is no such thing as a "damage proof" cage - exo or otherwise - it will get damaged.
3.   Exo cages add unnecessary size to the vehicle - it gets hung up on obstacles 3 times more often.
4.   Exo cages limit access to exterior body parts and interior ingress and egress.
5.   Exo cages are very expensive and time consuming to fabricate - cost/performance ratio makes it a waste.
6.   THEY ARE UGLY!!!!!!!!

I am an absolute believer, and highly recommend an interior roll cage be installed in any off-road vehicle, especially in a Toy truck.  I would NOT go rock crawling again without a properly designed roll cage installed in my vehicle.



Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: cbeers on Mar 23, 2019, 05:41:43 AM
I plan to copy this almost exact.

but no oem bar still....i don't get that?
seatbelts maybe?

CB
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Mar 23, 2019, 04:34:28 PM
You can fix the stock temp gauge...

https://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=47792.msg599053#msg599053


google 'Toyota temp gauge mod'

All I could find was information for 93 and up, nothing at all for second gens.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 23, 2019, 07:22:06 PM
All I could find was information for 93 and up, nothing at all for second gens.

Same principal.     Might have to vary the resistor values.

http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/techsite/tempgauge.htm (http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/techsite/tempgauge.htm)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Mar 24, 2019, 08:54:23 AM
Right, but without a lot of potentially destructive testing I can't know if I have to vary the resistance values or not
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 25, 2019, 04:09:36 AM
Right, but without a lot of potentially destructive testing I can't know if I have to vary the resistance values or not

At the end of the day of modifying that gauge you just polished a turd.  It's electic.  There is no temperature reading.

I have never questioned the water temp reading on my AutoMeter Sport Comp mechanical 270 degree sweep gauge.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-3432?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-autometer&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj6mD0JOd4QIVsxx9Ch3RcwM3EAQYASABEgI9rvD_BwE

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 25, 2019, 01:06:39 PM
There is no temperature reading.


Make your own temp marks...………..
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 25, 2019, 01:14:52 PM
Purchased a new fan clutch. Aisin, OEM of course.

This is the model FCT-001

Figured I'd go ahead and eliminate another possible variable. Fan wasn't whiring at 230°.

Radiator comes this week. Intake gasket should also be here this week. Old gasket should come off easily, wasn't on there that long.

Debating getting a 180° thermostat. But this radiator is already overkill (3 core aluminum) for a stock application. May do it anyways, I'm heading to Nevada later this summer for some abandoned mine exploration. It needs to be able to handle 100°+ off road. An electrical fan is DEFINITELY a consideration. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190325/d574a57b1c49726c2e8ddfe48a45b599.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 25, 2019, 01:27:02 PM
Hold off on the thermostat.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 25, 2019, 02:03:58 PM

Make your own temp marks...………..

      :haha: "Make your own temp marks...".   :rofl:


Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 25, 2019, 02:11:02 PM
      :haha: "Make your own temp marks...".   :rofl:


Gnarls.  :gap:
Ok
That was funny.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 25, 2019, 02:42:35 PM

Mommy they're making fun of me.


 :rivers:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: cbeers on Mar 25, 2019, 03:11:33 PM
holy crap that fan clutch was cheap!! nice find!

CB
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 26, 2019, 05:01:30 PM
holy crap that fan clutch was cheap!! nice find!

CB
Thanks! I usually find the Aisin number and then I shop around.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 26, 2019, 05:07:57 PM
New fan clutch came, ordered yesterday and here today. How nice.

Got the old gasket off, still have to clean the rest of the gasket surfaces. New razor blade should do that well. Acetone always helps clean surfaces up too!

Rad comes tomorrow, I'm praying I don't need an electric fan to run it. Checked measurements, seems good so far. Hoping to have it running this week. After letting the coolant sit a bucket, I noticed some crap had settled to the bottom. I'll just flush the entire system. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190327/1e2c4175173adf8e6db15ecc7a1524e2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190327/4abc7fd360010d6a4e0d52ad69dad65d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190327/309c74a8cb88113ecee32519ca006d94.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 26, 2019, 07:52:20 PM
You can change the fluid in the aisin fan clutches...………….
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 26, 2019, 08:03:08 PM
You can change the fluid in the aisin fan clutches...………….
Not worth the hassle. I'd rather pay $40 for a new one. Also, are you sure? I've heard you can on other models, not these. Nothing is mentioned about servicing it in the FSM.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 26, 2019, 09:45:48 PM
http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/FanClutch/FanClutch.htm


But I'm thinking Aisin is OEM.   If not, not sure.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 26, 2019, 09:50:05 PM
Side question. Does everyone install their intake gaskets dry? Or with sealant? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190327/2a62ef24ccf993199b19a36d1d032371.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 27, 2019, 03:40:05 AM
I like to use that copper spray adhesive/sealant on something like an intake.  It has worked good for me.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 27, 2019, 03:58:47 AM
Side question. Does everyone install their intake gaskets dry? Or with sealant? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190327/2a62ef24ccf993199b19a36d1d032371.jpg)


I installed mine dry.. .no gasket sealant.  I don't know what the "Pros" do or recommend.

The bolts and nuts will need to be checked and rechecked after installation to keep tight.

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 27, 2019, 04:00:30 AM
Not worth the hassle. I'd rather pay $40 for a new one.


I agree.

Gnarls. :gap:

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 27, 2019, 07:36:25 AM
I like to use that copper spray adhesive/sealant on something like an intake.  It has worked good for me.
I've also heard good things about that copper spray. Did you use it on this style of intake gasket with the rubber rings around the coolant passages? I may install this one dry, and try again if need be.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 27, 2019, 07:37:50 AM
I installed mine dry.. .no gasket sealant.  I don't know what the "Pros" do or recommend.

The bolts and nuts will need to be checked and rechecked after installation to keep tight.

Gnarls.
Thanks for the tip regarding the bolts.
I'm using the LC engineering kit that uses all studs, with nylon lock nuts. I'll probably replace the nylon nuts with newer ones since these have been taken off a few times.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 27, 2019, 08:52:36 PM
Got some new bolts, and the gasket arrived today.

I've decided to section the gasket, I'll cut the center plate portion and EGR portions off of the gasket.
There's plenty of spacing between the components to allow for a clean cut that won't affect sealing.

I didn't remove my EGR block plate a second time, so I just left it on. This is why I'm cutting the EGR portion off.

The center block portion is gonna get cut out so I can use sealant. I've decided I'll use what I used on every other gasket on this motor (Minus the HG, of course).
The "right stuff" black on both sides, and installed. I know not everyone agrees with this method, and I'm willing to admit I was wrong if it doesn't go as planned. It's worked before.

H8PVMNT made a fantastic suggestion to use a copper spray/sealant. If the first method fails, I'll definitely use this.
I have a buddy that had a timing cover leak on his 22RE, after a fresh Head gasket/timing cover job. He sprayed some of that copper stuff at the gasket and it stopped. Stoked to be able to drive this thing soon! Tomorrow is what I'm aiming for.


Something unrelated to the engine, but to the truck.
Another buddy has this custom made slide in camper in his 85' single cab (sister to mine) and he loves it. Made in California, $1800. Not a bad price for what you get, full interior of carpet and lights/wood paneling (don't quote me on that).
I'd love to spend several weeks in the desert this summer/fall in the aforementioned abandoned mines. I'd love to spend it in something reliable and comfortable. So I think I may get one soon.
Anyone run campers occasionally? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/b12d53d77b0d4bf57540407c851f8e0a.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 28, 2019, 01:30:15 PM
Radiator is installed, intake installed, and she's up and running.
The radiator was a direct bolt on fit, no cutting or anything required to get it in. The original fan shroud even fits!
I'm amazed at the quality. It's got a 15psi rad cap. I may bump that down to a 13, which is what stock is.
The temperature obviously still fluctuates, as all cooling systems do. Just not as much as before.
While driving it's from 175-190. While idling, it's from 180- just below 200. I thought about modifying the thermostat (drilling a hole) like many have Suggested. I still may do that, to allow coolant flow constantly.
180° to right below 200° sounds reasonable to me.

Going to go drive it some more and see how she runs. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/83c410a4eb6d24e20b004b3a3162078b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/cba633d43c9d8188d15b5f31ddf14c7a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/6a4c74ec6a0f9cd5fe20005510fc1fb2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190328/e1e23d3d1011df220c0654f1d5274a1b.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: joeyf on Mar 28, 2019, 01:55:48 PM
That's a nice looking rad, what brand. What are you looking to know about the camper, I have a slide in that I use a lot in the summer.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 28, 2019, 02:02:30 PM
That's a nice looking rad, what brand.


10-4!!!!!!!!  :gap:

Gnarls. :thumbs:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 28, 2019, 02:30:44 PM
After a quick drive around, I took it up a hill here in SLC. The temp stayed "normal" the whole time, but went up to 210°! Fan didn't kick on.
At this point, I'm just going to assume the temp rising to 210° is Normal. I may drill a hole in the thermostat and see if it makes a difference? LCE told me 180-210° is completely acceptable. The thermostat itself fully opens at 212°.

Should I just stop worrying and drive the damn thing? If there was a real overheating issue (HG) it wouldn't fluctuate, it'd constantly climb.

Only other thing I can think of is a dual stage thermostat.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 28, 2019, 02:34:51 PM
That's a nice looking rad, what brand. What are you looking to know about the camper, I have a slide in that I use a lot in the summer.
It's an eBay rad. Only $118!
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F382696317371

Do you run heavier duty springs in the rear with your camper? My main concern is suspension sag. That, and stability on the road.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: joeyf on Mar 28, 2019, 03:19:00 PM
Do you run heavier duty springs in the rear with your camper? My main concern is suspension sag. That, and stability on the road.

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Yes i run heavy springs. You will get lots of sway if you dont.

You can try grabbing flat over loads from any truck at a junk yard. Then mount bump stops at the ends of them so your leafs sit on them before the camper is slid on.

When your not using the slide in take the bump stops off so you still have a nice ride.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 28, 2019, 05:57:56 PM
Yes i run heavy springs. You will get lots of sway if you dont.

You can try grabbing flat over loads from any truck at a junk yard. Then mount bump stops at the ends of them so your leafs sit on them before the camper is slid on.

When your not using the slide in take the bump stops off so you still have a nice ride.
I like this idea! Thanks, I'll definitely go this route. Bump stops are important. Don't want the springs anymore inverted than they already are!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 28, 2019, 05:59:30 PM
Drove the truck to work tonight. Stayed at 200° and below. I'm going to just continue to drive it.
I will however, purchase the dual stage thermostat from Toyota to help with the temp swings.

This weekend I'll try and get the AFR gauge installed. Someone basically told me the narrow band aren't accurate enough to tune, but I'm sure it'll be fine.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 29, 2019, 04:08:18 AM
That's rad. ;)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 29, 2019, 11:50:53 AM
Air fuel ratio gauge Installed. Fits great in this location.
Also installed a 180° thermostat, truck runs nice and cool. Between 170-190. Which I'd say is perfect!
Truck runs pretty good, Definitely runs rich. It's a dog if you get on it. I'm going to drop jet sizes on the main and secondary and see if that improves it. Which is should.  (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190329/0a240706970fd4fcee8a660bc65df583.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190329/1927e90805f8295a648f4c97980122ac.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 29, 2019, 12:45:21 PM
Please keep us updated on Your temp as You drive it.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 29, 2019, 01:46:59 PM
Please keep us updated on Your temp as You drive it.
Will do. Went ahead and pulled the first spark plugs and (Cyl #1) to get an idea if it's running overly rich/lean. Plug actually looks pretty good



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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190329/fd852b68963bc3bdc4b3b67cf5f0910e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190329/8b781cd6e20181ea561a3f89f8482763.jpg)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Mar 29, 2019, 01:55:34 PM
Good choice on the 180 thermostat, i had the same experience as you. On my 20/22r with weber 38, to have it bog or be sluggish because of a too rich condition, it has to be extremely rich, where the gauge shows 9:1 afr which is the lowest it will register. However, a slightly lean hiccup can cause it to bog or hesistate, as little as 16:1 on acceleration. Keep us updated this is interesting!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 29, 2019, 02:57:41 PM
Looks lean to Me
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 29, 2019, 04:21:46 PM
Looks lean to Me
That's what I'm thinking. Not that lean, definitely not a dangerous level. I definitely don't get good gas mileage, so I'm curious as to why it's running lean. More discoveries to be made.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 29, 2019, 04:22:50 PM
Good choice on the 180 thermostat, i had the same experience as you. On my 20/22r with weber 38, to have it bog or be sluggish because of a too rich condition, it has to be extremely rich, where the gauge shows 9:1 afr which is the lowest it will register. However, a slightly lean hiccup can cause it to bog or hesistate, as little as 16:1 on acceleration. Keep us updated this is interesting!
Will do! My narrowband gauge might not be accurate enough to get perfect readings, but I'll see. The 180° thermostat is Definitely nice! Heater seems to have taken a small hit in performance from it.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2019, 07:28:53 PM
After a quick drive around, I took it up a hill here in SLC. The temp stayed "normal" the whole time, but went up to 210°! Fan didn't kick on.
At this point, I'm just going to assume the temp rising to 210° is Normal. I may drill a hole in the thermostat and see if it makes a difference? LCE told me 180-210° is completely acceptable. The thermostat itself fully opens at 212°.

Should I just stop worrying and drive the damn thing? If there was a real overheating issue (HG) it wouldn't fluctuate, it'd constantly climb.

Only other thing I can think of is a dual stage thermostat.


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A dual stage t-stat will not be noticeable.

Drilling a hole in the t-stat will not be noticeable.

A 50/50 coolant mix raises the boiling point to 223d F.

Add a 13 lbs radiator cap to a healthy sealed and closed coolant system with a 50/50 coolant mix it will not boil at 250d F.

I don't think you have anything to worry about if your mechanical temp gauge goes to 220d F.

Just my experience.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2019, 06:03:59 AM
Will do. Went ahead and pulled the first spark plugs and (Cyl #1) to get an idea if it's running overly rich/lean. Plug actually looks pretty good


My plugs looked very similar after break in and a few hundred miles on my 22RE rebuild.

If the mixture is on the lean side, it's very slight.

In a naturally aspirated carb'd engine, two factors that can effect AFR and AFR readings is Relative Humidity and Barometric pressure.  For example:

Increasing ambient humidity from 32% to 60% retards combustion phasing, reduces maximum pressure rise rate, increases coefficient of variation (COV) of indicated mean effective pressure (IMEP), reduces NOx, and increases brake-specific fuel consumption (BSFC).

For every 1,000 increase in elevation from sea level, a change in jet size could be required.

So.... readings on an AFR gauge may be tricky to evaluate correctly in order make any changes to the carb jetting.

In a 22R, you will lose about 3 to 4 HP for every 1,000 feet increase in elevation from sea level.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 30, 2019, 12:52:02 PM
O2 bung and sensor installed. Perfect timing too, I checked my MPG today. I got 12.5 mpg!
Plugs don't say it's running rich... Glad I got this gauge. I do know that I will be changing the Main/secondary Jets first.
Turns out also, I don't have a catalytic converter. Which is interesting. This truck prior to me purchasing it was NOT registered as a classic, so it had to abide by the local emissions rules. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190330/9569cdd96515c58cdce90145c3035f92.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 30, 2019, 05:12:32 PM
Update. AFR gauge installed and hooked up!

Shows between 19.0 and 20.0 at idle, which is INCREDIBLY lean. There's no way it runs this lean, the plugs don't even reflect it running THAT lean.
This is a Narrowband gauge mind you, but still.

While cruising at 2,000 ish RPM, it shows between 14.0 to 16.0, which is better. Almost perfect.

If it was really running as lean as it said, I'd be willing to bet it'd be backfiring and running like crap. Which it isn't, I've been driving it all day.

I haven't played with the main jets or air correctors yet, I'll have to do that either tomorrow or Monday.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 30, 2019, 06:23:17 PM
Heated or unheated O2 sensor?

If unheated,  sensor isn't  hot enough at idle for valid reading.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 30, 2019, 06:33:50 PM
Heated or unheated O2 sensor?

If unheated,  sensor isn't  hot enough at idle for valid reading.
Well that makes a ton of sense. I'm guessing it's not a heated sensor. Guess I can stop freaking out about it running too lean.
I'll be more concerned about the readings while cruising/under load, as that's where it matters most.
I have my 02 sensor mounted where the cat would've been. Too far back?

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Mar 31, 2019, 06:21:46 AM
The company Innovative recommends at least 24" downstream from the exhaust port, but they don't say how far is too far, and AEM recommends at least 36". I think your location is good, seems to be within a couple of inches where I placed mine. The important thing is to install it between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, ideally at 12. That way the moisture and condensation doesn't accumulate in the sensor, this reduces the life of the o2 dramatically.

Tune the idle to maximum vacuum and where the engine runs best and don't focus on the AFR reading. This is a tip I have seen mentionned in many tuning tutorials, I ended up at around 12.3-12.5 at idle.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2019, 08:49:52 AM
The company Innovative recommends at least 24" downstream from the exhaust port, but they don't say how far is too far, and AEM recommends at least 36". I think your location is good, seems to be within a couple of inches where I placed mine. The important thing is to install it between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, ideally at 12. That way the moisture and condensation doesn't accumulate in the sensor, this reduces the life of the o2 dramatically.

Tune the idle to maximum vacuum and where the engine runs best and don't focus on the AFR reading. This is a tip I have seen mentionned in many tuning tutorials, I ended up at around 12.3-12.5 at idle.

Hey G...   are you testing/evaluating AFR using a wide band AF Gauge and a heated O2 sensor?

I am curious what kind of AFR I would see on my 22RE.  But... I'm not sure what options I would have to actually change the AF mixture?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 31, 2019, 09:12:57 AM
The company Innovative recommends at least 24" downstream from the exhaust port, but they don't say how far is too far, and AEM recommends at least 36". I think your location is good, seems to be within a couple of inches where I placed mine. The important thing is to install it between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, ideally at 12. That way the moisture and condensation doesn't accumulate in the sensor, this reduces the life of the o2 dramatically.

Tune the idle to maximum vacuum and where the engine runs best and don't focus on the AFR reading. This is a tip I have seen mentionned in many tuning tutorials, I ended up at around 12.3-12.5 at idle.
Thanks for this tip, I agree completely about tuning it at idle to Max vacuum, I've heard others say that too.
Placement is important, I totally placed it wrong.
It still reads, but I know it won't last for long.

I'm totally planning on just getting a full blown Wideband AFR, and ditching this crap narrowband that tells me nothing.



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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 31, 2019, 02:38:38 PM
That's a picture of a unheated narrowband sensor.

It's more robust than the wideband sensors innovate and other use.

The placement won't kill it.

It will only cool off at idle and not have a valid reading.



I've used a narrowband, digital voltmeter and a graph like this:


(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwbo2.com%2F2a0%2Fafrnb.gif&hash=fa283ae2db586b1a23984fe1636c889b)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Mar 31, 2019, 03:00:15 PM
Interesting results on the cooling system. My truck has no catalytic converter either... maybe they didn't come on the carb trucks??
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 31, 2019, 04:14:57 PM
Worked on tuning today.

I changed both main Jets to size 135. Which is the smallest I have, currently. I Definitely noticed it is less sluggish, so hopefully that'll help with the MPG.
I changed the air Jets as well, I think the primary is a 180 and the secondary a 165.
Idle jets are both 55, which is a tad rich. About 1.5 turns out on the mixture.

Runs well, filled up with gas. 91 octane. I'll drive it and see how my MPG is.

I included pictures of all the spark plugs, they look pretty good.

When I mash it, it shows about 15.0 on the AFR gauge.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190331/361339daefc89cbe11b1936455a94355.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190331/e93cd99cdf26eaa7726398d6e0f3df90.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190331/1e24d87ccebc5e657b728142736f4ea4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190331/cd7349a79698a7dbb08c70bc4b577525.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Mar 31, 2019, 04:47:13 PM
Just got off the freeway after taking it for a test.

Holds and maintains 70 no problem. Feels a little less powerful than the stock carb, I think it may be a tad too rich still.

Timing is at 0°, early 22R calls for 5°. LCE told me 0° despite what Toyota says.

Under full power the AFR gauge shows 13ish, which from what I understand is good for underload.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Apr 01, 2019, 03:55:46 PM
0 deg btdc? That sounds strange to me, I run 12-14 inital with a modified more agressive timing curve, I do run 91oct all the time. The decoloration of the ground strap should be in the apex of the curve. With the vac disconected I suggest 8btdc initial and 32-34 total advance. This should not feel slower than the stock setup. Not a ton faster but not slower. With more timing your power and fuel economy will go up.

WOT af/r should not be above 13.1:1 for maximum power and 13.5:1 for safety, but with a narrowband it is hard to tell.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 02, 2019, 11:20:25 AM
0 deg btdc? That sounds strange to me, I run 12-14 inital with a modified more agressive timing curve, I do run 91oct all the time. The decoloration of the ground strap should be in the apex of the curve. With the vac disconected I suggest 8btdc initial and 32-34 total advance. This should not feel slower than the stock setup. Not a ton faster but not slower. With more timing your power and fuel economy will go up.

WOT af/r should not be above 13.1:1 for maximum power and 13.5:1 for safety, but with a narrowband it is hard to tell.
Yes, I was running 0° BTDC. That's what LC engineering said.

Yesterday I set it at 5° BTDC, which is what the early 22R likes. I've found this works the best for me. I'm also running 91 octane, nothing else but 91 has been in this motor.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 02, 2019, 11:27:01 AM
Been driving the truck without any issues. Starts right up when it's below 40° with ease.
I have noticed a idle surge when the motor is cold, I can "clear it out" by holding it at 1100 RPM before it runs smooth (with the choke on)
Sounds to me like it's running too rich when it's cold. Then again, I am pulling the choke all the way out, which makes the mixture rich. I'll try half way on the choke for now on and see.

Still holds and maintains freeway speed easily, the worn out front end vibrates at anything over 65.
No worry, I'm planning a full front end rebuild like I did on my other truck.

Headlights drop the RPM enough for it to run noticeably rougher. This truck has always had a slight rumble in the seat at idle (so has just about every old Toyota I've driven).
I've found the best idle is around 750-800, anything lower than that and she's a bit rough. Sounds like carb tuning to me.

Thanks again for the monumental amount help and advice you have all given, it definitely is appreciated.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 02, 2019, 11:41:17 AM
Been driving the truck without any issues. Starts right up when it's below 40° with ease.
I have noticed a idle surge when the motor is cold, I can "clear it out" by holding it at 1100 RPM before it runs smooth (with the choke on)
Sounds to me like it's running too rich when it's cold. Then again, I am pulling the choke all the way out, which makes the mixture rich. I'll try half way on the choke for now on and see.

Full foot to the floor at freeway showed 13.5 on the AFR, sounds decent to me.

Still holds and maintains freeway speed easily, the worn out front end vibrates at anything over 65.
No worry, I'm planning a full front end rebuild like I did on my other truck.

Headlights drop the RPM enough for it to run noticeably rougher. This truck has always had a slight rumble in the seat at idle (so has just about every old Toyota I've driven).
I've found the best idle is around 750-800, anything lower than that and she's a bit rough. Sounds like carb tuning to me.
If you get on the throttle, there's a slight hesitation before it picks up. Too much fuel? Not enough?
Thanks again for the monumental amount help and advice you have all given, it definitely is appreciated.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 04, 2019, 05:59:52 AM
Engine won't idle below 800 without getting noticeably rougher. Enough to feel it in my seat

Had the same issue with the stock carb and intake.

I can't set it at the idle speed of 700. I have to set the idle at about 800-900, headlights/blower drop it enough to make it run rough.

Not sure what the deal with this is.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 04, 2019, 10:37:11 AM
Why are you concerned about the idle RPMs?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 04, 2019, 10:48:58 AM
Why are you concerned about the idle RPMs?

Gnarls.
Because I worry about everything. And I expect it to be perfect.
Just part of who I am. My expectations for this have clearly overstepped what they should be.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 04, 2019, 11:35:53 AM
Because I worry about everything. And I expect it to be perfect.
Just part of who I am. My expectations for this have clearly overstepped what they should be.

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My 22R idled between 850 and 900 and it was happy.

If you have very a rough idle, like a misfire, then you may want to diagnose it.

It's probably AFR - mixture - so carb, or it may be ignition - but typically not unless there is a misfire at other RPMS, or it's mechanical - disty, valve lash, or a valve issue - bad valves/seats, leak.  Could be vacuum.  Could be the cam profile.

Just thinking out loud.

And... it's OK to be anal about your truck. :gap:

Gnarls.  :blah:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 04, 2019, 12:09:26 PM
Thanks for the comments Gnarls. It's not a missfire, just a rough rumbly idle.
Drives like a raped ape once you get on the throttle.
Literally every aspect of how it runs is great minus the idle.
I'll just take what I've got and deal with it.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: cbeers on Apr 04, 2019, 02:11:00 PM
no issue if not smogging but a high idle will fail the test.
it happened to me after the top end.

CB
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 04, 2019, 02:13:39 PM
... just a rough rumbly idle.


I love a rumbly idle!!.... sounds like it SHOULD run like a raped ape! :gap:

Gnarls. :beerchug:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 04, 2019, 08:27:38 PM
Clocked in at 16.5 miles per gallon. That's pretty good for a Weber I'd say! May drop the secondary jet a size.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 05, 2019, 03:52:20 AM
Clocked in at 16.5 miles per gallon. That's pretty good for a Weber I'd say! May drop the secondary jet a size.

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What is your elevation?

What octane fuel are you burning?

As you know, your right foot has a lot to do the MPG.  In town and freeway driving and road grade level can effect MPG.

AFR, carb tuning, and engine tuning can effect MPG.

My basically stock 85 22R, standard cab, averaged 19 to 20 on 89 octane gas.  My average elevation was about 1100 feet.  I did not baby my truck.

16.5 MPG could be good mileage for your elevation?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 05, 2019, 04:05:09 AM
I have just found over time that I have to find the happy place for each engine in regards to things like ignition timing and idle RPMs. For instance you may very well find that a bit more ignition advance will pick you up a mile per gallon or so.  We modify these things to the point that the stock settings are moot anyway so don't chew off your fingernails trying to get it to act like a stock engine at sea level.

I also find that for tuning what the engine likes in winter will vary a bit from what it wants in the warmer months, even to the point of a richer primary idle jet in the winter.  Nice thing about the Weber is that you can swap that out in seconds.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 05, 2019, 08:22:32 AM
What is your elevation?

What octane fuel are you burning?

As you know, your right foot has a lot to do the MPG.  In town and freeway driving and road grade level can effect MPG.

AFR, carb tuning, and engine tuning can effect MPG.

My basically stock 85 22R, standard cab, averaged 19 to 20 on 89 octane gas.  My average elevation was about 1100 feet.  I did not baby my truck.

16.5 MPG could be good mileage for your elevation?

Gnarls.
I'm at about 4500' in elevation.
91 octane (only fuel I've ran in it since the rebuild)

5° BTDC for the timing. I had someone recommend that I advance it to 8° or even 12°. I'll have to fiddle with it and see.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 05, 2019, 08:24:28 AM
I have just found over time that I have to find the happy place for each engine in regards to things like ignition timing and idle RPMs. For instance you may very well find that a bit more ignition advance will pick you up a mile per gallon or so.  We modify these things to the point that the stock settings are moot anyway so don't chew off your fingernails trying to get it to act like a stock engine at sea level.

I also find that for tuning what the engine likes in winter will vary a bit from what it wants in the warmer months, even to the point of a richer primary idle jet in the winter.  Nice thing about the Weber is that you can swap that out in seconds.
I definitely know what you mean about tuning for the time of year too. Both my trucks run significantly better when it's warm out.

How fast can you change your main Jets? I'm not that fast... Yet.


All of this tuning stuff will have to be done over again when I move in less than a month. Portland is at 50' in elevation.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 05, 2019, 09:07:36 PM
Main jets in the bowl, maybe 7-10 minutes.  I need to change my secondary idle jet one step richer.  I have a slight dip when I get into the secondary and that transition is when you feel the secondary idle jet, then when you get the secondary main it takes off.  It was et up for my hybrid with the stock cam and I think the 282 cam just gulps a bit more at that point.  So cool how much you can tweak the characteristics of these things.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 06, 2019, 12:53:28 PM
Hey everyone! Just got back from the first real "Road trip" in this truck with the new motor.
The truck did phenomenally well! I put about 190 miles on it between today and yesterday, all freeway.
Salt Lake to Logan valley in Utah takes about an hour and a half, 90 miles there and 90 back.
Truck had NO problem doing 75 the whole way, I am a little weary of having that motor spinning at 3,200 + RPM,
but I can't imagine it would cause any issues at all.
I stayed in the primaries as much as I could, the occasional full throttle to help up some grades.

The elevation between Salt Lake and Logan are about the same, but they are separated by a large canyon road. Never had to downshift
below 4th, 60mph was the slowest it did uphill.

Truck ran cool as it ever will, about 175 degrees the whole way. I am more than happy with that!
Oil pressure was a constant 60-65PSI at 2,500 to 3,000 RPM. Right where it should be (Conventional 5W30)
Fuel mileage? I think I have close to half a tank left, which is fantastic for clocking 190 miles.
Timing at 5 degrees BTDC, 91 Octane. Never had to fiddle with the carb. Ran as great up there as it did down where I am.

Now for the not so great... The bottom intake plate is leaking. Not badly at all, just a VERY light seepage. No drop in coolant level.
LCE recommended silicone when installing the bottom plate. I did my usual "The right Stuff" with the gasket. There is clear machining
"Differences" (Clearly errors) to the point LC engineering mentions it in the install instructions.
Now, I am very anal about leaks but I don't think I am about this one. I will attempt to clean the area its leaking from, and smear a bit of silicone to prevent any further seepage. If it still seeps, I will just pull the bottom plate off and fix the issue. Luckily, the intake doesn't
have to come off for this.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 06, 2019, 03:43:51 PM

Truck had NO problem doing 75 the whole way, I am a little weary of having that motor spinning at 3,200 + RPM,
but I can't imagine it would cause any issues at all.


What are you "weary" about?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 06, 2019, 08:28:22 PM
What are you "weary" about?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
Long durations of high RPM driving. Toyota never designed these trucks to go 70+.
I just feel 3200 RPM is a bit high for long continuous driving.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 06, 2019, 08:31:07 PM
Got the new air cleaner adapter installed with my old air cleaner. Works great, the adapter is DEFINITELY worth it. Now I can find a replacement air cleaner wherever I am, with tons of options being it's 5 1/8".

Interestingly enough, the truck now idles WAY better than before. Today it would idle around 850-900, but now it's at a solid 700 and runs smooth.

I also calculated my MPG, and I got a little over 19.5 MPG! That's fantastic for the freeway, and I imagine I could see much higher if I didn't abuse the skinny pedal as much.

Now if I could just fix the pesky leak.... (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190407/694e46273092ecd54c498f9967149597.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190407/4466982ff35cc4b0a4bf21fcf63274f3.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 07, 2019, 04:10:14 AM
Hey T…

Wow… you really have that little hummer tweaked!  Great job!   :beerchug:

With the correct jetting adjustments, 19.5 MPG at your elevation would most likely translate to over 22 to 25 MPG at sea level!  Your right foot is worth 1 or 2 miles per gallon more or less.  :thumbs:

For your leak…. Based on what I used for thread sealer on my input shaft seal job – I used this base upon Permatex’s recommendation:

https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-thread-sealant-with-ptfe/

I really liked the consistency, contact feel, and sealing power.

If I were you I’d try this:

https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

Again T, I really enjoy and appreciate you sharing and posting your updates and photos on your project.  :yesnod:

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 07, 2019, 08:49:14 AM
Hey T…

Wow… you really have that little hummer tweaked!  Great job!   :beerchug:

With the correct jetting adjustments, 19.5 MPG at your elevation would most likely translate to over 22 to 25 MPG at sea level!  Your right foot is worth 1 or 2 miles per gallon more or less.  :thumbs:

For your leak…. Based on what I used for thread sealer on my input shaft seal job – I used this base upon Permatex’s recommendation:

https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-thread-sealant-with-ptfe/

I really liked the consistency, contact feel, and sealing power.

If I were you I’d try this:

https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

Again T, I really enjoy and appreciate you sharing and posting your updates and photos on your project.  :yesnod:

Gnarls.  :gap:
Thanks Gnarls!

For the leak, it's leaking out of the gasket on the bottom intake manifold plate. Not sure why it's leaking, I used a gasket and cleaned the surfaces. LC engineering says there are sometimes casting defects and they recommend the use of silicone on the bolt threads. I just silicone sealed the entire thing with the gasket.

Thread sealant likewise wouldn't do anything here?
It's easy to do this job, the intake doesn't have to come off. But it will be hard cleaning the bottom of the intake. I can actually do it from below.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 11, 2019, 04:06:02 PM
I've hit over 3K miles on the rebuild, and just about 3K on this oil change. Haven't had to add oil once...
I got a new Edlebrock air cleaner, and I am very impressed with the quality. Especially where it seals...
Pic of the coolant leak as well, I'm continuing to drive it until I can fix it. I move here in 3 weeks, if it ain't broke don't fix it! I have the gasket, just waiting.

I also need to seal the pan again, it leaks a bit. No worry. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/5459a74b1eba3de6b32f86726a5f2d52.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/a79e5a9d2c6536eb1473f6800d96e82e.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 11, 2019, 07:47:09 PM

Pic of the coolant leak as well.... 

https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

Thin layer on both sides of gasket, lightly coated on bolts/nuts.  :thumbs:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 11, 2019, 07:56:59 PM
https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

Thin layer on both sides of gasket, lightly coated on bolts/nuts.  :thumbs:

Gnarls.
So just to clarify, you want me to use thread sealant on the gasket itself?

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 12, 2019, 04:08:31 AM
So just to clarify, you want me to use thread sealant on the gasket itself?

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What has worked so far to stop the leak?

I believe that thread sealer will do the trick.

I would clean the manifold and head mating surfaces and the threads on the bolts and nuts with a good solvent - carb cleaner, lacquer thinner, acetone, or MEK.  Before applying the thread sealer to the gasket and installing the manifold, I would drain the radiator to eliminate the coolant contacting the sealer , at least over night.  After applying it to the gasket, I would let the sealer "cure" a little for about 1 hour, then I would apply the sealer to the bolts/nuts and install the manifold.  Torque bolts/nuts to spec. FILL THE RADIATOR WITH COOLANT. Drive the truck for a couple hours - then recheck the bolts/nut

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 12, 2019, 04:21:56 AM

For the leak, it's leaking out of the gasket on the bottom intake manifold plate. Not sure why it's leaking...

Are you sure the coolant is leaking out through that gasket?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 12, 2019, 01:57:11 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_defect#Gas_porosity

https://www.dynacast.com/porosity
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 12, 2019, 05:36:15 PM
I am sure, it's not leaking from the bolt holes.
Plus, I used silicone on the bolts themselves. LC engineering recommended it.
But, I like your idea for using the sealant on the threads. No harm in trying it!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 12, 2019, 05:37:41 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting_defect#Gas_porosity

https://www.dynacast.com/porosity
Casting defects is what I'm ruling out. However, the gasket mating surface was perfectly smooth.
It's enough of an issue that LC engineering says it is. They say you might have to modify the bottom intake plate. I didn't, it fit fine. Thanks for those articles!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 12, 2019, 05:40:39 PM
Here's a pic from my project today.
Shifters locked in Reverse and Low range, no way to get it out of gear. Cut and welded a link of chain on the shifter. Huge padlock. Just made to slow a thief down. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190413/3ed61336d6b0b62363e477590064e386.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: joeyf on Apr 12, 2019, 09:44:07 PM
I recently went through the same problem of a leaking bottom intake plate. Went through two gaskets with no success. finally got it by scrubbing both matting surfaces with steel wool, to a shiny finish. Cleaning it up with carb cleaner then using AISIN FIPG.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 12, 2019, 10:30:48 PM
I recently went through the same problem of a leaking bottom intake plate. Went through two gaskets with no success. finally got it by scrubbing both matting surfaces with steel wool, to a shiny finish. Cleaning it up with carb cleaner then using AISIN FIPG.
Sounds like an idea. Did you torque those bolts? I just snugged them up. I'll have to pick up some AISIN FIPG

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: joeyf on Apr 13, 2019, 07:43:06 AM
No torque just what feels good by hand.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Apr 13, 2019, 08:36:54 AM
Here's a pic from my project today.
Shifters locked in Reverse and Low range, no way to get it out of gear. Cut and welded a link of chain on the shifter. Huge padlock. Just made to slow a thief down. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190413/3ed61336d6b0b62363e477590064e386.jpg)

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As you said, we can only hope to slow thieves down. That said, I will be copying this system because I'm guessing fewer thieves will want to make a horrendous racket with an angle grinder for a minute to cut that padlock off.

I would also suggest some kind of system that disables the ignition or starter motor. Preferably both because you could still back the truck onto a trailer in 4wd low.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 13, 2019, 09:46:27 AM
No torque just what feels good by hand.
Gotcha. Did you end up using the gasket WITH the FIPG?

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 13, 2019, 10:01:06 AM
As you said, we can only hope to slow thieves down. That said, I will be copying this system because I'm guessing fewer thieves will want to make a horrendous racket with an angle grinder for a minute to cut that padlock off.

I would also suggest some kind of system that disables the ignition or starter motor. Preferably both because you could still back the truck onto a trailer in 4wd low.
I always back in when I can, against barriers or walls. And I know, nothing stops trailer theft. But trailer related theft is pretty uncommon.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: joeyf on Apr 13, 2019, 11:24:29 AM
Gotcha. Did you end up using the gasket WITH the FIPG?

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No gasket. Just a thin layer on plate and intake, let it sit for 5 or so minutes then bolt up
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 14, 2019, 12:11:27 PM
No gasket. Just a thin layer on plate and intake, let it sit for 5 or so minutes then bolt up
Gotcha. I'll have to try this. Thanks for the heads up. Is this on a stock intake?

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 14, 2019, 12:29:41 PM
Well, I attempted to fix the water plate again this weekend.
Joeyf had a great suggestion of using the Aisin FIPG and no gasket. I'm going to try this next, with the thread sealant gnarls recommended (not leaking from the bolts)

What I did try? I used the gasket (correct one) and that copper spray I've seen recommended before.
Used silicone on the bolts like LCE said. Still leaks.
I made sure to snug the bolts, cleaned the surfaces...
The mounting surface on the intake for the water plate is a very smooth surface.
Debating what I should do. Maybe I'll ditch the offenhauser? I'm certain it's the issue.

At this point, I'm very close to selling this truck (open to offers, I know I'll only get maybe 2K)

How am I supposed to rely on this turd when it leaks?



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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 14, 2019, 01:31:16 PM
Aisin FIPG may work.  I’ve never used it.  If I were to use it, I would use it with the gasket.

I have not seen what Aisin FIPG looks like.  I have used and seen what Permatex’s thread sealer looks like.

Here’s the tech spec on:  https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

and why I would try it:

https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/56521.pdf

Let us know whatever you do and how it works.  :gap:

You’re just kidding about selling you truck, aren’t you?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 14, 2019, 02:55:36 PM
Can you come up with some sort of do-hickey to pressurize the cooling system without the engine running?

Then pressurize the system and look and SEE where it's leaking.....
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: joeyf on Apr 14, 2019, 05:36:17 PM
Gotcha. I'll have to try this. Thanks for the heads up. Is this on a stock intake?

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Yes stock intake and plate. Hope your next try works.

If not it will suck, but you can try pulling the intake off and getting a big sheet of 120 or so grit sand paper and sand it on a table.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 14, 2019, 06:33:22 PM

Yes stock intake and plate. Hope your next try works.

If not it will suck, but you can try pulling the intake off and getting a big sheet of 120 or so grit sand paper and sand it on a table.
There's an idea! The gasket surface (intake side) is a polished surface. I'm sure that is a factor.
If I have to remove the intake, I might as well just Tig weld (or braze) the plate on permanently.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 14, 2019, 07:06:33 PM
Can you come up with some sort of do-hickey to pressurize the cooling system without the engine running?

Then pressurize the system and look and SEE where it's leaking.....
I could rent a cooling system pressure tester again and see. The thing is, it only started leaking the first time after I took it on a road trip. Not before that.

When the motor got to 220° awhile back, it didn't leak. Which, the system would've been way pressurized then.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 14, 2019, 07:08:25 PM
Aisin FIPG may work.  I’ve never used it.  If I were to use it, I would use it with the gasket.

I have not seen what Aisin FIPG looks like.  I have used and seen what Permatex’s thread sealer looks like.

Here’s the tech spec on:  https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

and why I would try it:

https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/56521.pdf

Let us know whatever you do and how it works.  :gap:

You’re just kidding about selling you truck, aren’t you?  :dunno:

Gnarls.  :spin:
I'm totally serious about potentially selling it. I just haven't decided if that's a good idea or not. I'll totally regret it if I do. But there's something about a 5VZ tacoma with a five speed...
Looks like I'll be picking up some thread sealant this week. Thanks again for the recommendation.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 14, 2019, 07:49:17 PM
I'm just wondering if the leak is somewhere else and it only looks like it's coming from the plate.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 14, 2019, 07:59:31 PM
I'm just wondering if the leak is somewhere else and it only looks like it's coming from the plate.
It's definitely coming from the plate. I can see it seeping from in between the plate and intake.
If I swipe my finger along the perimeter of the plate, I get coolant.
I wonder if the surface of the intake is the issue.
It's basically a mirror finish.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 15, 2019, 03:57:09 AM
This is kind of butch but I think it will work for you.  Drop in some good radiator/cooling system sealant and I bet the leak will stop.  K Seal or Alumaseal both work great.  This is typically a permanent fix too until you tear it apart.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Apr 15, 2019, 05:26:36 AM
In re selling, I think I will share my experience:

My truck spent one summer (my busy season when I most need it) constantly letting me down: A huge exhaust leak that I battled for ever, Overheating issues that (I think) ended up killing the ignitor, oil loss that would put the Exxon Valdeez to shame, and constant battles with the atrocious neglect and shoddy maintainance by previous owners. After the ignitor went out I decided to sell it.

Long story short: It turned out that it was less trouble and expense for me to stick with a vehicle that had known problems, even several major ones, than to take on a new vehicle with a whole new batch of unknown problems. If I were you I'd let the truck be for a couple weeks while puzzling on it. A solution might just come to you at 3 AM one day.

Speaking of which, are the mating surfaces flat? Is the plate bent? What happens if you turn the plate front-to-back and try again? Does the leak go away? Does it move? Is there a blockage in the coolant passage that puts undue pressure on your sealing job? Can you drill and tap some extra bolt holes to squish the plate against the intake where it's leaking?

Can you go back to the old intake manifold? I know the two-piece adapter is not well liked, but could you weld the two pieces together? Do you have any machinist buddies who could make a one-piece adapter for a reasonable cost? Do you want to buy a milling machine and make one yourself? (Okay, buying a $1200 milling machine to fix a coolant leak is overkill, but at least you have the milling machine afterwards!)

These are just a few ideas and suggestions. At the risk of sounding like Gnarly, they may be worthless :yupyup:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Apr 15, 2019, 05:45:10 AM
This is kind of butch but I think it will work for you.  Drop in some good radiator/cooling system sealant and I bet the leak will stop.  K Seal or Alumaseal both work great.  This is typically a permanent fix too until you tear it apart.

I've been told those can plug up radiators and heater cores. I've seen it happen once, which is hardly a huge sample size. But it's enough that the idea of using those gives me pause.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 15, 2019, 06:00:36 AM
This is kind of butch but I think it will work for you.  Drop in some good radiator/cooling system sealant and I bet the leak will stop.  K Seal or Alumaseal both work great.  This is typically a permanent fix too until you tear it apart.
I was thinking along the lines of this too. Alumaseal is cheap too!  Thanks for the recommendation.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 06:23:45 AM
I've been told those can plug up radiators and heater cores. I've seen it happen once, which is hardly a huge sample size. But it's enough that the idea of using those gives me pause.

Everyone's experience is different.

I've used Alumaseal powder several times and it works, AND it DID NOT plug up anything.

I've used it and seen it work on 3 of my 22REs!

I was going to recommend that option if the Permatex Thread Sealer did not work - which I believe it will. 

I'd really like to understand if the mating surfaces are FLAT?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 06:51:20 AM
What are you torquing the nuts and bolts to?
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Apr 15, 2019, 07:53:35 AM
Or TIG weld the plate in place :yesnod:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 15, 2019, 01:36:48 PM
In re selling, I think I will share my experience:

My truck spent one summer (my busy season when I most need it) constantly letting me down: A huge exhaust leak that I battled for ever, Overheating issues that (I think) ended up killing the ignitor, oil loss that would put the Exxon Valdeez to shame, and constant battles with the atrocious neglect and shoddy maintainance by previous owners. After the ignitor went out I decided to sell it.

Long story short: It turned out that it was less trouble and expense for me to stick with a vehicle that had known problems, even several major ones, than to take on a new vehicle with a whole new batch of unknown problems. If I were you I'd let the truck be for a couple weeks while puzzling on it. A solution might just come to you at 3 AM one day.

Speaking of which, are the mating surfaces flat? Is the plate bent? What happens if you turn the plate front-to-back and try again? Does the leak go away? Does it move? Is there a blockage in the coolant passage that puts undue pressure on your sealing job? Can you drill and tap some extra bolt holes to squish the plate against the intake where it's leaking?

Can you go back to the old intake manifold? I know the two-piece adapter is not well liked, but could you weld the two pieces together? Do you have any machinist buddies who could make a one-piece adapter for a reasonable cost? Do you want to buy a milling machine and make one yourself? (Okay, buying a $1200 milling machine to fix a coolant leak is overkill, but at least you have the milling machine afterwards!)

These are just a few ideas and suggestions. At the risk of sounding like Gnarly, they may be worthless :yupyup:

Hey Lewis, thank you for your thoughts on the matter of selling my rigs. I've come to the conclusion at the moment that I will just hang on to them. You are right, any other truck I get will be it's own can of worms. Potentially greater issues, potentially none.
Makes sense to stick with what I know!
I do have my original intake manifold with the two piece adapter. If it comes to it, I will just install it and sell (Or fix) my Offenhauser.
Welding the water plate to the intake makes sense, I would have to wrangle with heat distortion/warpage. The plate is billet aluminum, and the intake is cast aluminum. TIG Bronze brazing might be a better idea.
The plate can only be installed one way unfortunately. I do believe the plate is flat, but I could be wrong. If I have to remove it to drill and tap new holes, might as well permanently weld it on. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 15, 2019, 01:42:09 PM
Everyone's experience is different.

I've used Alumaseal powder several times and it works, AND it DID NOT plug up anything.

I've used it and seen it work on 3 of my 22REs!

I was going to recommend that option if the Permatex Thread Sealer did not work - which I believe it will. 

I'd really like to understand if the mating surfaces are FLAT?

Gnarls.

Thanks for the input gnarls! I just dumped the Alumaseal powder in (Thank you H8PVMNT for the suggestion!). Going to drive it around and get it mixed in. I am certain it'll fix my issue, the leak is very slow. No drips, just seepage.
If I have to remove the plate again, I will absolutely use the Permatex Thread Sealer on the bolts. It isn't leaking from the bolts, but it would be nice to have the thread sealer instead of the RTV on the threads.

As for what I torqued the bolts to, I just snugged them up real good. There isn't a torque spec that I have found (I called LCE, they said just snug them good).
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Apr 15, 2019, 04:05:09 PM
I would also use no gasket and just permatex silicone or right stuff or toyota FIPG, and follow the instructions! So both sufaces fully cleaned, and depending on the product, you apply and mate the surfaces, wait 30 mins or so, tighten or torque, then wait 12 or 24 hours before putting coolant in. No leaks garanteed even if both surfaces are not flat!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 06:03:51 PM
T,

This is a long thread for having limited facts known, just my observation.

First, did you check and measure the mating surfaces for flatness?

I don’t care what LCE told you, there IS a torque spec, and I don’t know who at LCE told you that but its stupid!  The 22R intake manifold spec is 14 lbs.  In MY opinion and MY experience that factory torque spec is too light.  But, it is supported by a bracket... WHY do you think that is?  After working on 3 Toyota trucks, 2 22REs and 1 22R since 1986, I don’t agree with the factory specs in several cases… again JUST MY experience.

If you are just “snugging” those bolts and nuts, the manifold and plate is GOING TO LEAK!! That manifold hangs off the head, it probably weighs MORE that the factory carb and manifold. 

When I suggested to use Permatex High Performance Thread Sealer, I didn’t mean just on the threads. 

Regarding the Alumaseal, I should have suggested how to put in the radiator… but it is too late now.  It should only take about 30 minutes at freeway speeds to stop that leak…. BUT if the manifold and plate are moving due heat and vibration, and the torque pressure against those surfaces, with or with a gasket, is NOT sufficient - the Alumaseal may NOT work.

EDIT:  By the way..... how many manuals can you show me or have you ever seen that refers to or specs torque for ANYTHING on a Toyota 22R engine at "snug"?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 15, 2019, 07:04:42 PM
T,

This is a long thread for having limited facts known, just my observation.

First, did you check and measure the mating surfaces for flatness?

I don’t care what LCE told you, there IS a torque spec, and I don’t know who at LCE told you that but its stupid!  The 22R intake manifold spec is 14 lbs.  In MY opinion and MY experience that factory torque spec is too light.  But, it is supported by a bracket... WHY do you think that is?  After working on 3 Toyota trucks, 2 22REs and 1 22R since 1986, I don’t agree with the factory specs in several cases… again JUST MY experience.

If you are just “snugging” those bolts and nuts, the manifold and plate is GOING TO LEAK!! That manifold hangs off the head, it probably weighs MORE that the factory carb and manifold. 

When I suggested to use Permatex High Performance Thread Sealer, I didn’t mean just on the threads. 

Regarding the Alumaseal, I should have suggested how to put in the radiator… but it is too late now.  It should only take about 30 minutes at freeway speeds to stop that leak…. BUT if the manifold and plate are moving due heat and vibration, and the torque pressure against those surfaces, with or with a gasket, is NOT sufficient - the Alumaseal may NOT work.

EDIT:  By the way..... how many manuals can you show me or have you ever seen that refers to or specs torque for ANYTHING on a Toyota 22R engine at "snug"?

Gnarls.
Hey Gnarls, I think you may be confused on which plate I'm talking about. My fault, I haven't sent any pictures.
This plate is NOT affected by the intake manifold to cylinder head gasket (or bolts, studs and nuts in my case)
This plate is on the bottom of the intake (pictured below) and is mounted with 8 M6 bolts.
I have not seen a torque spec anywhere, I've searched the FSM (maybe mine is missing it?).

I've also never seen a bar that attaches from the intake to block on the 22R. I've seen several on the RE. I'm also running a full intake stud kit, which helps distribute the load.

Where else do you recommend putting the thread sealant? Seems counter intuitive to use it as a gasket sealer? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190416/73a142128a4bd42014f1bb41541a43a0.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 07:17:31 PM
Some quick research....

Clipped from a 5 second Google search...  interesting?

People also ask
Do I need gasket sealer for intake manifold?
RTV, other sealants or adhesives should not be used around the coolant or intake ports on carrier-style gaskets. The only place RTV silicone may be required is to seal the area where the ends of the intake manifold gaskets mate with the end strip seals on the block under the intake manifold or valley cover.Jul 1, 2010
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 07:22:49 PM
I'd be curious what Offenhauser recommends for torque specs?  Can't find any information on Offenhauser site.

I got this a few minutes ago from Chat with Summit Racing.

25 lbs, go 3 lbs increments up to final at 33 lbs.  !!!  :yikes:

THAT in my opinion is too much... again just my experience and opinion.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 07:41:01 PM
Hey Gnarls, I think you may be confused on which plate I'm talking about.


Yep... I thought the leak was at the head, which was really puzzling.  My fault for not clarifying.  Your previous earlier photo was confusing for me.

OK... WAY different issue!!

Yes... those little screws should be carefully tightened. 

On my 22RE there is a bracket, no bracket on my 22R, right.  The point I was making is that there is weight hanging on the side of head.  BUT... your leak is NOT related to the manifold to head.

I'd still use the Permatex sealer and a gasket.  I'd torque them down 4 to 5 lbs.  You can recheck and retorque with the thread sealer up to 24 hours... one of the nice features of that sealer.  The sealer has "stickiness" to it that I think will work well to seal the plate to the bottom of that manifold.   :crossed:

I'd use a tightening sequence, like a cylinder head.

Sorry I was not aware of where your "leak" was coming from.  :smack:

My guess is that the plate may not be perfectly flat and may even flex somewhat during tightening?

Gnarls.  :disturbed:



Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 08:02:28 PM
If joeyf and Gillesdetrail have had good luck with no gasket and RTV, I’d defer to their experience.  :thumbs:

I’d still use Permatex Thread Sealer and a gasket.  :gap:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 08:06:55 PM
If LCE is aware of issues with this manifold and sealing that plate, I'm surprised they didn't provide more information on sealing it from a coolant leak.  :dunno:

With that said, the boys at LCE know their poop!  :yesnod:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 15, 2019, 08:23:10 PM
Hey Gnarls, I think you may be confused on which plate I'm talking about.
Where else do you recommend putting the thread sealant? Seems counter intuitive to use it as a gasket sealer? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190416/73a142128a4bd42014f1bb41541a43a0.jpg)


That plate and a leak would drive me nuts.

Not being able see it, I'm guessing the mating surface at the manifold is very narrow?

The amount surface area to seal the plate to the bottom of the manifold is minimal, so with the heat and pressure on the sealing areas, I'd go with whatever Offenhauser recommends.  If there are any defects, Offenhauser should warrantee their stuff.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 15, 2019, 08:40:49 PM
That plate and a leak would drive me nuts.

Not being able see it, I'm guessing the mating surface at the manifold is very narrow?

The amount surface area to seal the plate to the bottom of the manifold is minimal, so with the heat and pressure on the sealing areas, I'd go with whatever Offenhauser recommends.  If there are any defects, Offenhauser should warrantee their stuff.

Gnarls.
I received an email from Tony at LCE. He had this to say about the surfaces: "We actually get these straight from the foundry quite rough.
Offy finish is horrible, so we do it here."
This means they resurface the intake at their shop, I'm assuming this applies to the bottom water plate as well.

I explained the methods I had used to seal it, and he was surprised. He recommended this: "If a gasket is giving you this much trouble, I would get a tube of Hi Temp Copper RTV Silicone 
Gasket Maker and use that with no gasket. I've used Ultra Grey with no issue, but Copper is called for coolant."
I think if the stop leak doesn't work, I'll try this. Coupled with the thread sealant you recommended.
It appears to be still leaking currently, but they say it takes up to 200 miles to seal. If it doesn't seal I'll do the aforementioned.


Crazy thought, what if I made a CNC machined intake for this truck? Two halves, completely custom. Only ports that I need. Ideas...


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 16, 2019, 04:32:24 AM
.... This plate is on the bottom of the intake and is mounted with 8 M6 bolts.
I have not seen a torque spec anywhere, I've searched the FSM (maybe mine is missing it?). 

With those little screws I understand why LCE would say "just snug".  You don't want to break off or strip one of those screws.

This is good stuff for coolant…

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/ultra-series-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-copper-maximum-temperature-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker/

This spec looks better for coolant…

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-water-pump-thermostat-rtv-silicone-gasket/

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Apr 16, 2019, 04:36:10 AM
I received an email from Tony at LCE. He had this to say about the surfaces: "We actually get these straight from the foundry quite rough.
Offy finish is horrible, so we do it here."
This means they resurface the intake at their shop, I'm assuming this applies to the bottom water plate as well.

I explained the methods I had used to seal it, and he was surprised. He recommended this: "If a gasket is giving you this much trouble, I would get a tube of Hi Temp Copper RTV Silicone
Gasket Maker and use that with no gasket. I've used Ultra Grey with no issue, but Copper is called for coolant."
I think if the stop leak doesn't work, I'll try this. Coupled with the thread sealant you recommended.
It appears to be still leaking currently, but they say it takes up to 200 miles to seal. If it doesn't seal I'll do the aforementioned.


Crazy thought, what if I made a CNC machined intake for this truck? Two halves, completely custom. Only ports that I need. Ideas...


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I'm a fan of trying new things in the name of learning. I bet you'd learn a lot in the process. It would probably be more work than just welding the thing together, but sometimes more work isn't the point.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 16, 2019, 05:00:51 AM
I'm a fan of trying new things in the name of learning. I bet you'd learn a lot in the process. It would probably be more work than just welding the thing together, but sometimes more work isn't the point.

Yeah... I suppose you could tig weld it on.  I'd guess an expert tig welder experienced with alloy and aluminum would charge $100 to do it? 

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 16, 2019, 09:19:55 AM
Yeah... I suppose you could tig weld it on.  I'd guess an expert tig welder experienced with alloy and aluminum would charge $100 to do it? 

Gnarls.
Probably more than that. I'd do it myself if I had a Tig machine. The welds wouldn't have to be deep penetrating either, just enough to seal.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Apr 16, 2019, 11:31:54 AM
What better time to pick up a Fronius MagicWave for only a modest amount more than the cost of an entire replacement engine?

Seriously, though, when enough jobs accumulate that require a tool I don't have, I usually end up getting anyway. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 16, 2019, 02:51:22 PM
What better time to pick up a Fronius MagicWave for only a modest amount more than the cost of an entire replacement engine?

Seriously, though, when enough jobs accumulate that require a tool I don't have, I usually end up getting anyway. Just a thought.
Exactly. Those Fronius machines are spendy!

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 16, 2019, 02:56:32 PM
Exactly. Those Fronius machines are spendy!

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A tube of goop is WAY more frugal. :gap:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 17, 2019, 05:05:41 AM
I've been told those can plug up radiators and heater cores. I've seen it happen once, which is hardly a huge sample size. But it's enough that the idea of using those gives me pause.

Yeah it seems like it could but I have never had it happen the half dozen times or so I have used it over the years.  One of those highly personal choices ;).
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 19, 2019, 10:48:58 AM
Not much will be happening on this build for a few weeks. Experienced something interesting today though...

The temp on the freeway was fluctuating, from 170° - 210°. Turned the heat on, immediately stopped and went back to normal (170-195).
Sounds like air in the system to me... What do you all think?
Jumped back on the freeway, no issues whatsoever.


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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: OVRAROK on Apr 19, 2019, 10:53:08 AM
Sounds like you need to BURP it.  :yesnod:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 19, 2019, 12:22:30 PM
Not much will be happening on this build for a few weeks. Experienced something interesting today though...

The temp on the freeway was fluctuating, from 170° - 210°. Turned the heat on, immediately stopped and went back to normal (170-195).
Sounds like air in the system to me... What do you all think?
Jumped back on the freeway, no issues whatsoever.


Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk



I think it's normal.... or the engine is about to blow up! :yikes:

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 22, 2019, 06:32:54 AM
Well this was fun...
Hose got a hole in it somehow on my way to welding class. Last week of class, and OF COURSE I have stuff to get done so I don't fail.
Not sure how the leak started, I don't believe I blew the head gasket (just sprayed the coolant everywhere).
I'll have to do an open loop for the heater core line and fix it when I move.

Waiting for AAA. I love having the premier service but still have to talk to a stupid robot. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190422/04ff33945ad9a0d9d4260171feaed7f6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190422/61befbe50fa6d1dd5c65b385c4ae2708.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 22, 2019, 04:46:45 PM
Why didn't you just shorten the hose and reattach?



 :cheese:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 22, 2019, 04:55:17 PM
Why didn't you just shorten the hose and reattach?



 :cheese:
The nipple on the heater core is severely messed up, from trying to remove the 33 year old hose when the motor went in. I'll need a new core.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 22, 2019, 04:56:30 PM
Got her filled back up, and the hose setup in a closed loop. Made bleeding the system easier! I could've just installed the plug on my intake and capped the other coolant port, but I would like the system to flow.
Works great so far. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190422/905f7687e9565d040131e188acb7f603.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190422/c8eea84795c79a79f86d88db9f3302e1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190422/ade18af11df1c4e366fbddc7818d7bac.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 28, 2019, 08:05:02 PM
Both my trucks have been picked up, being sent to my new home in Vancouver WA.
I'll see them later this week, I leave Salt Lake Sh**** on Thursday.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 28, 2019, 08:14:44 PM
Both my trucks have been picked up, being sent to my new home in Vancouver WA.
I'll see them later this week, I leave Salt Lake Sh**** on Thursday.

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Happy travels.... let us know when you get settled.

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 29, 2019, 08:04:15 AM
Welcome to the great state of Washington.
We will have to meet up at some point. I would love to scope your rigs and add you to my collection of Marlin Turtles I have been lucky enough to meet.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 29, 2019, 02:51:11 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys! It was a little sad having both trucks picked up, there's always that thought in your mind that you'll never see them again.
But, I chose a shipping company a few miles from where I live in Vancouver (Sunrise Express in Portland) and they have great reviews so I'm not too concerned.

I'm definitely trying to get to know some more Toyota guys and gals in the PNW area, seems to be more than there was in Utah. Stoked to get started on my welding career up there!  (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190429/29afbce02075ad9df900d4d862c8a62e.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 29, 2019, 04:53:38 PM
Hey,

I saw that car transporter going to Mexico...………….





 :cheese:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 29, 2019, 06:45:07 PM
Hey,

I saw that car transporter going to Mexico...………….





 :cheese:


If I had $2 for every Toyota truck I witnessed going to Mexico in the last 13 years I could pay for a 14-day All-Inclusive Carnival cruise to Jamaica!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Apr 29, 2019, 07:13:59 PM
If I had $2 for every Toyota truck I witnessed going to Mexico in the last 13 years I could pay for a 14-day All-Inclusive Carnival cruise to Jamaica!!

Gnarls.

Move  ;)
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 29, 2019, 07:17:47 PM
Move  ;)

Hey Lewis....

Move?  Where to?

You couldn't blow me out of Arizona with a hydrogen BOMB!!  :gap:

Gnarls.  :usa:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on Apr 30, 2019, 05:00:09 AM
Move?  Where to?

Move to Mexico where all those Toyotas are.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 30, 2019, 06:51:24 AM
Move to Mexico where all those Toyotas are.

MOVE TO MEXICO!!!!  :yikes:

Lewis, Lewis, Lewis...

You want me to die? :dunno:

Mexico is one of the most disease ridden countries in world!! :yikes:

You can't even drink the water or eat the lettuce! :thumbdown:

:nope: Nope.... been to Mexico a number of times.  You could not pay me enough to move there. PERIOD.  :smack:

In fact, I probably will NEVER visit Mexico again. :shake:

I am upset about the number of our early Toyota trucks being hauled across the border. :o

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 30, 2019, 02:16:18 PM
Trucks arrived in Portland. Waiting at the Sunrise Express center until I get up there.
At least the singlecab ran well enough for them to get it off the trailer. Hopefully it runs at that elevation!

Leaving Thursday... Should see my trucks Friday.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on Apr 30, 2019, 02:18:14 PM
MOVE TO MEXICO!!!!  :yikes:

Lewis, Lewis, Lewis...

You want me to die? :dunno:

Mexico is one of the most disease ridden countries in world!! :yikes:

You can't even drink the water or eat the lettuce!

:nope: Nope.... been to Mexico a number of times.  You could not pay me enough to move there. PERIOD.  :smack:

In fact, I probably will NEVER visit Mexico again. :shake:

I am upset about the number of our early Toyota trucks being hauled across the border. :o

Gnarls.  :gap:
Agreed. I'm sure there are nice places in Mexico, just not nice enough for me to want to go. Tons of old mines, but the unrest and cartel really sway me away from wanting to visit.

I guess I don't understand why the people down there buy so many of the trucks here to take back, they can get their hands on Diesel Hilux trucks, just buy those!
The 22R I pulled from the singlecab got sold to a guy who was taking it down to south America. Hope he gets it working good.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 04, 2019, 10:40:30 AM
Arrived in Vancouver, trucks get delivered on Monday.
Stoked!
My Honda XR650R runs better than it did in Salt Lake, I'm guessing from the lower elevation (4500' to 200')

Not sure how the Weber will run on the Singlecab, I'm running a size leaner than stock on the main Jets and I believe for the air Jets as well. What do you guys think, should I just run it how it is for a bit (assuming no backfires from being too lean) or immediately swap to the factory Weber Jets? I was going to throw a new set of plugs in for sure. I know the idle mixture adjustment affects open throttle as well, I may be able to richen it up if it doesn't run well.

My Xtracab should run as great as it did when I drove it to California. Which is slightly better than how bad it runs.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 04, 2019, 07:01:56 PM
I would probably guess you need to go back one step richer.  Just do the idle mixture screw test (see how many turns out it wants) and see what it tells you.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on May 04, 2019, 09:56:01 PM
There's probably an online calculator that will tell you what size jet to use.

Enter old altitude, new altitude and old jet size and get new jet size...……...………..
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: tgmaul88 on May 04, 2019, 11:14:49 PM
I see two toyotas pulling two toyotas at least once a week. In back window reads In Tow.      I sold two trucks to these guys and now there both in gutamula
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 05, 2019, 04:35:21 AM
I see two toyotas pulling two toyotas at least once a week. In back window reads In Tow.      I sold two trucks to these guys and now there both in gutamula

We shouldn't side-step this thread and topic. 

But... yeah... I have lived 2 hours from the Mexican border for the past 13 years, and I have seen this on average once a day.  I cannot imagine how many Toyotas have been and are being towed across our southern borders on a daily basis:

https://imgur.com/5OcjIBF

I spoke to a local Scottsdale police officer back in the late 80's when I moved to Arizona, he said they got stolen vehicle reports of 65 vehicles a day most of them Toyota trucks.  :yikes:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 05, 2019, 04:52:06 AM
There's probably an online calculator that will tell you what size jet to use.

Enter old altitude, new altitude and old jet size and get new jet size...……...………..

I think calculators and data can be handy and provide a good look.

Even a good AFR gauge doesn’t always do the ultimate job of tuning an engine for best performance.

I have found that my ears and butt dyno, while taking time to experiment and test drive,
usually end up with my best feeling about the tuning.

I believe this is especially true for any engine that has been modified from purely factory stock.

Gnarls.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 05, 2019, 11:54:19 AM
This is a pretty good write up...  http://sv3power.com/?page_id=373

And this one,,,  http://www.redlineweber.com/html/Tech/carburetor_set_up_and_lean_best_.htm

Basically however many turns your idle mixture screw needs to be out to have the thing idle right will indicate if your idle jet size is correct or not.  Everything else falls into place from seat of the pants feel and/or AFR readings.  There is a little wiggle room there.  I tend to run a jet richer in the winter time because it seems to help with the cold start and just runs better at sub zero temps.  In the summer with the same jet it will run on and diesel a bit when I shut it off so I pull it back one step leaner.

"If the mixture screw is more than 2 1/2  turns out turns then the Idle jet is too lean (too Small). When the mixture screw is less than 11/2  then the Idle jet is too rich (too large). These assumptions are based on the fact that the speed screw setting is not opened more than 11/2 turns."
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 06, 2019, 03:45:33 PM
This is a pretty good write up...  http://sv3power.com/?page_id=373

And this one,,,  http://www.redlineweber.com/html/Tech/carburetor_set_up_and_lean_best_.htm

Basically however many turns your idle mixture screw needs to be out to have the thing idle right will indicate if your idle jet size is correct or not.  Everything else falls into place from seat of the pants feel and/or AFR readings.  There is a little wiggle room there.  I tend to run a jet richer in the winter time because it seems to help with the cold start and just runs better at sub zero temps.  In the summer with the same jet it will run on and diesel a bit when I shut it off so I pull it back one step leaner.

"If the mixture screw is more than 2 1/2  turns out turns then the Idle jet is too lean (too Small). When the mixture screw is less than 11/2  then the Idle jet is too rich (too large). These assumptions are based on the fact that the speed screw setting is not opened more than 11/2 turns."
Thanks for those links, they help a ton!
The turning of the idle mixture screw is what I have been basing my idle tune at.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 06, 2019, 03:51:43 PM
Both my trucks got dropped off today, I immediately set to get the Singlecab tuned so I can begin daily driving it.

It ran, and pretty good too. But I still went to the baseline jets that my carb came with, and I started from there. I'm currently running a size 140 in the main and secondary jets.
Idle jets are 50 for both. When running a 55 in the main idle, I found it flooded too much so I went a step down. Idles great!! I am going to get a vacuum gauge so I can set the idle accordingly for that.

I threw a new set of plugs in as well, and topped off with 92 octane premium. Pictures of the plugs below.
Definitely lean, but not that bad. I'll see how it runs at this altitude (200') and adjust from there!

First butt Dyno around tells me it runs really REALLY good. Better than it did back in Salt Lake.
I haven't messed with my timing yet.

Motor runs cool, between 170-190° and never higher. I got a IR thermometer so I can verify block/rad temps and see what my gauge is telling me.

Man, I love driving on the roads here in Vancouver/Portland. The express way for 205 is nice and twisty. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/1ce454291363e0735a3a78621b95c53f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/c79e4b3ac3db72b831c4bd6bc532deda.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/a31a97a71a501fb54abe54fda694d365.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/3dd01b2f3fe5dd79bb1d5a0509a55aab.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/0f1af684440ad7539fadc2e62d5c33de.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 07, 2019, 04:22:04 AM

First butt Dyno around tells me it runs really REALLY good. Better than it did back in Salt Lake.
I haven't messed with my timing yet.


Hey T,

Glad your Toys are running great.  I hope you are enjoying the big move.

Your spark plugs look fine.

Your engines will get a nice boost in power at your lower elevation. Your carb'd engine is more affected by elevation changes than the EFI engines.  A carb’d 22R can drop up to 4 HP for every 1,000 feet in elevation rise above sea level.

As you know, two changes are usually made for high elevation tuning – 1 – leaner mixture – less oxygen to burn fuel mixture, and 2 – advance in ignition timing to begin combustion earlier.

Oh... and your oil and coolant temperatures will drop slightly at your lower elevation.  Also, if your RH is higher, your engine will be happier.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 07, 2019, 10:42:05 AM
Hey T,

Glad your Toys are running great.  I hope you are enjoying the big move.

Your spark plugs look fine.

Your engines will get a nice boost in power at your lower elevation. Your carb'd engine is more affected by elevation changes than the EFI engines.  A carb’d 22R can drop up to 4 HP for every 1,000 feet in elevation rise above sea level.

As you know, two changes are usually made for high elevation tuning – 1 – leaner mixture – less oxygen to burn fuel mixture, and 2 – advance in ignition timing to begin combustion earlier.

Oh... and your oil and coolant temperatures will drop slightly at your lower elevation.  Also, if your RH is higher, your engine will be happier.

Gnarls.
I've definitely felt the power increase. Feels like I've gotten the full benefits of the intake!
The IR Thermometer reads about 170° when pointed at the thermostat neck with the mechanical temp gauge reading 180°
These are great temps, it goes to about 170° on the mechanical when freeway driving. These are fantastic numbers to keep it running cool in the summer. I'm pretty confident it'll run cool in the desert too.

It idles a bit rough when I restart it when it's warm, but after driving it idles smoother. To me this seems like it's too rich, dumping fuel that has to be cleared out by running it. What do you think? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190507/8eabbfb8dfba987c4f15be9225b169db.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 08, 2019, 03:44:51 AM
.... It idles a bit rough when I restart it ..... What do you think?


It is perfectly normal for a carb'd engine to idle rough at first start up and have to give the gas pedal a little foreplay.   :gap:

Gnarls.  :thumbs:
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Pat on May 08, 2019, 07:44:34 PM
I've definitely felt the power increase. Feels like I've gotten the full benefits of the intake!
The IR Thermometer reads about 170° when pointed at the thermostat neck with the mechanical temp gauge reading 180°
These are great temps, it goes to about 170° on the mechanical when freeway driving. These are fantastic numbers to keep it running cool in the summer. I'm pretty confident it'll run cool in the desert too.

It idles a bit rough when I restart it when it's warm, but after driving it idles smoother. To me this seems like it's too rich, dumping fuel that has to be cleared out by running it. What do you think? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190507/8eabbfb8dfba987c4f15be9225b169db.jpg)

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That little Weber will idle beautifully hot or cold when set up right and no issues.   Pretty much every carb known to man will do the same.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 08, 2019, 08:00:25 PM
Tomorrow I'm going to pick up a vacuum gauge so I can tune this truck to run better at idle.
Turn the mixture screw until you get the highest idle.
Set the idle from there? I'm going to read up on it more.
Seems to be getting great gas mileage according to the needle and trip meter. Thing runs good.
I don't believe it has a vacuum leak at all, but there's always the possibility of that. Thing is, it really runs too good for there to be one.
When I pinch the pcv hose the idle drops, which to me sounds like a well sealed system?
Who knows, it runs well now but I want it to be perfect.

Planning a trip this weekend, Vancouver to Astoria. Hour and a half there, 2 and a half down through Cannon Beach home. Beautiful part of the PNW. There's an OHV park but I don't have my carb modded for inclines yet. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190509/d8a4bac4c1ba39a57bf3ad7b24d52d7f.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on May 09, 2019, 03:57:38 AM
That little Weber will idle beautifully hot or cold when set up right and no issues.   Pretty much every carb known to man will do the same.

the trick is getting your carb set up right with no issues. Some are much harder to do this to than others
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Lewis Hein on May 09, 2019, 04:01:16 AM
I've definitely felt the power increase. Feels like I've gotten the full benefits of the intake!
The IR Thermometer reads about 170° when pointed at the thermostat neck with the mechanical temp gauge reading 180°
These are great temps, it goes to about 170° on the mechanical when freeway driving. These are fantastic numbers to keep it running cool in the summer. I'm pretty confident it'll run cool in the desert too.

It idles a bit rough when I restart it when it's warm, but after driving it idles smoother. To me this seems like it's too rich, dumping fuel that has to be cleared out by running it. What do you think? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190507/8eabbfb8dfba987c4f15be9225b169db.jpg)

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this sounds great! I hope you're not measuring temperature directly of the metal surfaces, as infrared thermometers are not particularly accurate for shiny or near-shiny objects. Either way it sounds like you have a great running engine!
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 11, 2019, 02:53:08 PM
What a great day.

Filled up and calculated the fuel mileage... 20MPG!
That's with 92 octane at 200' of elevation.
That's about 50/50 of freeway (60mph) and city streets. I'd say that's pretty damn good, I'm very happy with the results. Still running great too, slight rumble in the seat at idle.... Just how a 22R should be. Intake plate seeps a bit still, only from one location now. I bought some more of the stop leak stuff recommended earlier, I figured when I blew the hose and lost all the coolant it probably lost a good amount of the stop leak powder too, so I'll throw half of the container in.

Not engine related, but I got a different set of wheels and tires as well!
American racing chrome wheels with Yokohama Geolanders in the stock 235/75/15 size. Or is stock a 225? Not sure. Paid $150 for the set, the tires have great tread and the wheels are balanced.
I definitely will do brand new tires once I get around to rebuilding the front axle.
My old wheels/tires caused a pretty serious vibration at speed, Les Schwab wouldn't balance them because the tires were so old (2004!).
The tires themselves are the culprit According to the tech at Les Schwab. My new to me used set run absolutely smooth on the freeway.
Not the best score price wise, but I absolutely love the wheels. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190511/debadd0891a10de197c13ae2029ebde9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190511/d5e828935a3334b7aabfd2505a3ddf88.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: emsvitil on May 11, 2019, 03:34:14 PM
Stock was the uncommon 225/75/15
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 12, 2019, 05:23:05 AM
Tires and wheels are cool.

My 85 22R got between 19 and 20 MPG on 89 octane at an average of about 1200 feet elevation.

Did you use this on the intake plate?......

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-water-pump-thermostat-rtv-silicone-gasket/

“A noncorrosive, sensor-safe RTV silicone gasket material formulated specifically for water pumps and thermostat housings. Highest water-glycol resistance available in an RTV silicone.”


Or this:

https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

Not just on the treads.

Read the tech data sheet.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: liveoak on May 12, 2019, 07:10:51 AM
stock 235/75/15 size. Or is stock a 225? Not sure.


the stock tire size should be stated on the VIN sticker in the driver door jamb near the striker plate
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 16, 2019, 08:59:40 PM
Stock was the uncommon 225/75/15
That's what it is... I knew it was either that or 235.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 16, 2019, 09:14:43 PM
Tires and wheels are cool.

My 85 22R got between 19 and 20 MPG on 89 octane at an average of about 1200 feet elevation.

Did you use this on the intake plate?......

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-water-pump-thermostat-rtv-silicone-gasket/

“A noncorrosive, sensor-safe RTV silicone gasket material formulated specifically for water pumps and thermostat housings. Highest water-glycol resistance available in an RTV silicone.”


Or this:

https://www.permatex.com/products/thread-compounds/thread-sealants/permatex-high-performance-thread-sealant/

Not just on the treads.

Read the tech data sheet.

Gnarls.
That's pretty good mileage. My Weber could probably be finer tuned for even more...
I advanced my timing a bit more to 8°, seems to run slightly better. I've heard of guys running even more advanced without issues (timing light set to 0°, twisting distributor so it flashes at 8° advanced on the oil pump marking)

My leak has significantly slowed down, I've since been driving it with a half a container of Alumaseal and it's barely seeping now.
I'll use that coolant resistant sealant when I take the plate off again, if I even need to...
I'll definitely be using the thread sealant you mentioned on all threaded assemblies from now on that come in contact with fluids.

I fixed the heat, I initially had it bi-passed the coolant lines for the core because I was sure I needed to replace it. The nipple the hose connects too was mangled from my attempts to remove the stock hose. I should have cut it. I was able to salvage it by cutting the sharp end off and sanding the edges down. No leaks, just great heat.

Truck runs great other than the slight rumble in the seat from a slight rough idle. Appears to idle fine when looking in from the engine bay, but a slight rumble is felt. I searched for vacuum leaks today and didn't see any, plugs don't show a leak. Maybe it's just like that, it is an old engine after all.
I have the idle about 800rpm, since the headlights/blower drop it about 100rpm.
It's possible I have a vacuum leak in the form of the oil pan gasket, the vacuum on this truck is pretty strong. Not sure if that could do it. Timing at the mentioned 8° advanced (no center vacuum line on the distributor).

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 20, 2019, 09:39:28 AM
First real "Road Trip" was a success. Around 230 miles round trip. Went and visited one of my favorite places near the Oregon coast, Astoria!
Tons of cool old Toyota trucks along the way.

Truck did great, temp sat at about 175° the whole way. 60psi of oil Pressure at 2300 RPM. Great numbers, the motor is healthy!
Calculated fuel mileage before I left was 19.5 mpg.
The AFR gauge showed 13.5 when I had the foot all the way to the (mostly metal) floor. Not sure how accurate it is, truck runs good so I'm not worried.

Few mountain passes on the way back that went to 1500', no issues there either.

Coolant leak has Essentially stopped, very miniscule seepage. You wouldn't be able to tell it was leaking.

Has a light valve tap that goes away once it's warmed up, I can't really see the point in adjusting all the valves right now if it's just one that taps only when cold... Next oil change for sure. I think I'm going to start doing valve adjustments every 6,000 miles.

I also calculated how many miles total are on the rebuild, sitting right about 4500 miles! I'd say she's just about fully broken in. No oil loss attributed to burning. Pan leaks a bit, sounds like every Toyota ever. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190520/9ad243d194cafd30a60ad167abdb1be6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190520/b44c1c780e36f0df8d757ab39e8722b3.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 20, 2019, 01:59:21 PM
Glad to read that your little red truck is happy. 

You installed metal timing chain guides, right?

In my experience, valve lash is going to change, and it won’t hurt to check and re-adjust every 6,000 miles.  If you do, order a Beck Arlney Rocker Cover kit – P/N 036-1817. It’s made in Japan and as good as any I’ve tried.  The cover gasket will eventually go flat and get harder and may not seal well enough to prevent oil leaking.  I was able to R&R the cover 5 or 6 times before installing a new gasket kit… but you will know when its time to install a new kit.  After installing a new gasket kit, I rechecked and re-tightened the cover nuts after 100 miles .

Typically for me, the intake valve lash got loser, and the exhaust valve lash went a little tight.  I ended up the 7/11 on hot engine, on my 22R, after trying different lash settings on a factory stock cam.  If I ended up with one rebel rocker making more noise than the others, I’d go back in and tweak it just a tad tighter.  Usually, the tighter the lash the more it moves the power to the upper RPMs…. slightly less low end torque.  I always tried to get the rocker tick to be as even as possible on all 8 valves.  For my 22R, I couldn’t really tell the difference between 8/12 and 7/11 other than the rocker tick was quieter.  I’m not saying that’s the right thing to do, but I just didn’t like excessive uneven rocker tick.

On your oil pan leak, have you rechecked your pan bolts?... snug them up a little.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 20, 2019, 07:05:39 PM
Glad to read that your little red truck is happy. 

You installed metal timing chain guides, right?

In my experience, valve lash is going to change, and it won’t hurt to check and re-adjust every 6,000 miles.  If you do, order a Beck Arlney Rocker Cover kit – P/N 036-1817. It’s made in Japan and as good as any I’ve tried.  The cover gasket will eventually go flat and get harder and may not seal well enough to prevent oil leaking.  I was able to R&R the cover 5 or 6 times before installing a new gasket kit… but you will know when its time to install a new kit.  After installing a new gasket kit, I rechecked and re-tightened the cover nuts after 100 miles .

Typically for me, the intake valve lash got loser, and the exhaust valve lash went a little tight.  I ended up the 7/11 on hot engine, on my 22R, after trying different lash settings on a factory stock cam.  If I ended up with one rebel rocker making more noise than the others, I’d go back in and tweak it just a tad tighter.  Usually, the tighter the lash the more it moves the power to the upper RPMs…. slightly less low end torque.  I always tried to get the rocker tick to be as even as possible on all 8 valves.  For my 22R, I couldn’t really tell the difference between 8/12 and 7/11 other than the rocker tick was quieter.  I’m not saying that’s the right thing to do, but I just didn’t like excessive uneven rock tick.

On your oil pan leak, have you rechecked your pan bolts?... snug them up a little.

Gnarls.
Its a factory dual row motor, I pulled metal guides out of it! Replaced with an OSK dual row timing set.

I've been able to re-use my valve cover gasket several times, I got a new one last time it was off. No leaks out of my half Moon seals, hell yeah!

I've had good luck with 0.007 and 0.011 for my valve lashes, no noise from the rockers at the moment.
I did reground rockers, new valve adjusters and cam.

For the oil pan, it doesn't leak much. It appears it seeps around the whole seal area.
I'm going to buy a new pan I think, I know that the pan itself can get bent by the holes that might prevent it from sealing properly.

I plan to pull the pan next oil change, and re-seal it then. I purchased new hardware when I installed the pan when I built it, so new bolts and lock washers.

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Toybrota on May 20, 2019, 07:11:52 PM
Spark plug number one after about 500 miles.

I went and have attempted to further tune my Weber, I have it set at about 2 1/4 turns out on the mixture screw. Which is close to the 2 1/2 turns out that is the cutoff point for swapping to a richer jet. I'm running a size 50 on both the main and idle jet.

Speed screw seems more than 1 1/2 turns in, I'll have to re-check...

I'm gonna buy a wide band Air fuel ratio gauge, so I can actually tune and see what the AFR is at idle. This narrowband is essentially useless.

Also checked again for vacuum leaks. None. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190521/76738a40db8ac5406e6ba7136f5ea1cd.jpg)

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Title: Re: Toybrota's 22R build
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 21, 2019, 05:34:46 AM
Hey T,

So right now is appears you have done a great job on this rebuild.  In fact, one of the very best reported DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilds on a 22 I’ve tracked in quite awhile.  Machining it right, choosing the right parts, diagnosing, thinking outside the box, taking in comments and advise from others, and being committed to doing it right, really does make a difference in the outcome. :beerchug:

I’m old school so I have never used a A/FR gauge.  From my very first go-kart racing days, I learned with limited tools and gauges.  My dad was an old school auto mechanic and taught me to use what we had (back in the early 60’s)… our ears, eyes, and butt dyno.  :blah:

I’m very interested to see what you discover as you continue to learn and tune your engine, and especially with the purchase and comparison of a wideband A/FR gauge - for hopefully more accurate reading and tuning.  :thumbs:

On the Weber carb, I ran Webers for about 8 years on my 3 sand rails. Two things were key for keeping them happy – they are fussy about wanting clean fuel and clean air, and mine liked lots of air flow.  Fuel and air filters were my best friends.  The right electric fuel pump with the correct PSI was also important.  Fortunately I didn’t have to spend much time “tuning” them on my VW engine.  :gap:

According to the Toyota engine builders I’ve talked to, and my own experiences, peak TUNING these little engines is critical to get the very best performance.  I believe this is especially true with a carb’d engine.  :yesnod:

Gnarls.  :spin: