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Technical Discussion => Engine => Topic started by: Gnarly4X on Jul 01, 2016, 07:07:57 PM

Title: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 01, 2016, 07:07:57 PM
OK, I'll start an engine rebuild post. 

VEHICLE
My 1986 SR5 Xtra Cab, 5-speed, 22RE has been garaged for about 3 years and 6 months since I ran it out of coolant. It was not leaking any coolant when I took for work that morning. It overheated and stalled on the freeway. It was 19 degrees that morning, January 2013. I got it towed home, backed it into the garage with the starter and bought new car.

I don’t know for sure how many actual miles are on this truck or engine.

MACHINE SHOP
The machine shop stripped, thermal cleaned, and magnafluxed the block for cracks & measeire bores. It only needed a .020” bore, and decked .006”, rods-crank-flywheel-pressure plate were balanced.  The rod bushings were OK, and they only had to polish the crankshaft.  I had them check clearances - rod clearance .0016 to .0018 - Main bearing clearance .0018 to .020 - because I didn’t want to mess with plastigauge measurements.

PURCHASES
I bought engbldr’s RV Oversized Valves head with a 261C cam installed, and the Master Rebuild Kit, new head bolts.  I have purchased new parts from Toyota (BVSV, thermo sensor, metal coolant pipe to radiator).  I had the injectors rebuilt, tested, and balanced at WitchHunter.

I will be installing a new copper radiator, hoses, t-stat, and Doug Thorley Header.

I have cleaned and painted just about everything to go back onto the engine with rattle can VHT engine enamel.

CURRENT STATUS
Right now it’s on the engine stand with the head torqued to 65 lbs, oil pick up, rear main seal, and little 5-bolt head rear cover installed.

*RANT MODE ON*
Today I’m am frustrated and want to some cheese with my whine!!... so pardon me while I vent a little.

First, in all the years that I’ve read posts and detailed threads on rebuilding a 22, I’ve never found a list of the start-to-finish step by step process - like a "Rebuild Your 22RE For DUMMIES" cheat sheet.  My Toyota factory manual sucks!  It jumps around so much on the procedures that it gets confusing on which steps are next!

Secondly… Now today… I find that the number 3 rockers are not sitting on the new 261C cam lobes correctly.  They are off about .050”.  I’ll post some photos.  The rockers are tight, so it’s not the rockers.  I think it’s the lobes on the camshaft are misaligned during casting?  I will call Tod at engbldr on Monday morning and see what he says.

And thirdly… I’m really disappointed in what is missing in the Master Rebuild Kit!!  I discovered that the new head does NOT come with exhaust manifold studs.  AND… the 3 studs on the intake side of the old head will NOT come out without destroying them.  So now I have to order some!!  Why, after 1000’s of rebuilds would the vendors NOT include the studs! Ridiculous!!   I would happily pay the extra cost for new studs in the kit, OR if Tod would have mentioned it to me while I’m order my parts, that would be nice to know.  Now I have to order new ones.
*RANT MODE OFF*

OK… I’m feeling a little better now.

QUESTION
Do any of you engine builders or mechanical gurus out there have any comments on the rocker pads (intake and exhaust), just on number 3 cylinder, sitting off the cam lobe by about .050” ? I don’t remember seeing a rocker pad that far off the cam lobe.

YOUR HELP
Since I am not an engine builder, any and all comments and suggestions during my rebuild will be very much appreciated.  You can harass me or let me know when I’m screwing up.  The last time I rebuilt an engine was in 1982, when I  completely rebuilt an Olds 455 for my 1968 Chevy long bed dune buggy hauler.  I did a head job on my 1985 22R pickup around 1999.

I apologize for the extra long intro…

Thanks,

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 01, 2016, 07:21:45 PM
Here's a photo of #3 rocker..
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 01, 2016, 07:31:19 PM
Here's my 1986 Xtra Cab. 22RE. 5-speed...
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 01, 2016, 07:51:11 PM
How's the alignment on the valve?

If it's shifted over, you could put a shim on there to shift the rocker over...........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 01, 2016, 08:13:28 PM
How's the alignment on the valve?

If it's shifted over, you could put a shim on there to shift the rocker over...........


Hey e,

Funny you posted that, I was just out in the garage looking at valve lash bolt touching the tip of valve.  I could move it over maybe .010" to .015".  Depending the thickness options for shims that would move the center of the pad over to almost center.  I'd have to pull the rack off and pull the rockers and springs off.  I measured the width of the cam lobes, the 261C measured about .005" more narrow than the stock cam lobes.

Well, I will sleep on this and pick it back up when I speak to Tod at engbldr.

Thanks for the suggestion, it looks like a shim would fix the issue.  I'm not sure what the specs are on rocker pad to cam lobe alignment?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 02, 2016, 12:14:51 PM
They probably won't be open Monday being the 4th. As for those intake studs, did you double nut them to try and remove them? And LCE's header studs are cheaper then buying Toyota studs.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 02, 2016, 02:11:22 PM
They probably won't be open Monday being the 4th. As for those intake studs, did you double nut them to try and remove them? And LCE's header studs are cheaper then buying Toyota studs.

Hi M,

Oh yeah, forgot about the 4th!

Yes, I double nutted and used a small pair vice grips.  Those studs are not hardened. I was able to save one them.  One of the long ones would not budge!!  Went to the Toy dealer - 70 minutes round trip.  They had the long ones in stock.  I picked up the short ones at Ace Hardware.  I was able to get all the exhaust studs out of the old header :gap:, but I still need a couple short ones. I will temporarily install the stock header, while I order the Doug Thorley.

For the studs going into the exhaust manifold, do you use Locktite on the threads?  I usually use blue Locktite.  On the header threads I apply a little never seize.  What's the consensus on that?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 02, 2016, 02:24:55 PM
I didn't use locktite, but I did use never seize on the manifold side. As for the DT header, why did you choose that one? I heard it has/had problems  because of that welded o-ring never sealing right.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 02, 2016, 03:46:19 PM
Since I pulled a couple of studs on the exhaust side;   I removed the remaining studs,   drilled and tapped for threaded inserts and used stainless threaded rod to replace the stock studs.


Won't ever pull out again.      Heavy duty Loctite on threaded inserts,  medium duty for the studs.

Did it with the head on the engine tooo.....
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 02, 2016, 07:01:18 PM
I didn't use locktite, but I did use never seize on the manifold side. As for the DT header, why did you choose that one? I heard it has/had problems  because of that welded o-ring never sealing right.

I have heli-coiled and tapped several 22 heads *ON THE ENGINE*... It was really hard and I never was satisfied with the results.

I have my own theory on why the stock studs pull or spin.  The studs are in aluminum alloy and the difference in expansion coefficients, plus I think the two metals don't like to live together... that causes a corrosion on the threads and weakens the soft threads in the head.  The other thing that causes them to spin is the stock self-locking nut.. too much friction and torque.  Loctite is good.  On my '85 I used never-seize compound on the header threads and just a split lock washer and hex nut. I had to re-tighten them about 3 times before I got them to stay tight.

I have had a DT header on both my '86s and my '85.  Yes, the mating flange to the head is a bad design and should be perfectly flat.  I had to have all 3 of my DT headers machined flat and smooth.  I think the DT header is the best all-around Tri-Y header for a 22R or RE.  If I were racing my truck in the Baja 500 and would be WOT most of time at 5,000 RPM, then an LCE 4-in-to-1 header might be better choice.

Just a DT header and 2.25" exhaust with free-flow cat and muffler on a stock 22 will get about 10% increase in torque and HP numbers.  Back in late 80's I had a chance to meet and talk to one of Doug Thorely's engineers, he said the tri-y header is the easiest and least expensive modification and gain in throttle response in 22.

That's just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 02, 2016, 07:06:19 PM
Since I pulled a couple of studs on the exhaust side;   I removed the remaining studs,   drilled and tapped for threaded inserts and used stainless threaded rod to replace the stock studs.


Won't ever pull out again.      Heavy duty Loctite on threaded inserts,  medium duty for the studs.

Did it with the head on the engine tooo.....

Oh yeah... stainless steel... good idea!  I wish I knew a guru metallurgist I could ask him/her some questions.

For me to do it right, I think longer studs, lock washers and double nuts would be the fix.  I won't use the stock self-locking nuts.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 03, 2016, 05:24:47 AM
To document my rebuild experience…  :moods:

Here’s some history before I catch up to now…

First I saved up $3,000 in cash - $100 bills (don’t they feel really good when you count them!) :D

For about a week off and on I checked out buying long blocks, short blocks and rebuilts on the net, and my local repair shops … decided too many complaints, and just don’t trust the builders, and buying an “unknown” was too risky, and way over my projected budget.  Since I have a well equipped garage and I’m a reasonably good DIYer, I made the decision to give it a go myself…… BUT made first mistake… started in Arizona summer time…. Dumb move! :smack:

Started an Excel spreadsheet for projected costs and sources. :yupyup:

Called and got quotes from local machine shops.  The machine shop work took longer than I planned. It was about 3 weeks and multiple 2 hour round trips to Phoenix before I picked up the finished block, crank, rods, flywheel & pressure plate. :shake_head:

Purchased an engine stand and shop crane (cherry picker) from Harbor Freight.  Very heavy to get in an out of the trunk of my car.  It took over an hour just to assembly them. :crazy:

HOT TIP:  :thumbs:  The night before I started, I sprayed liquid wrench on all the exhaust nuts and bolts, I SHOULD HAVE sprayed it on other nuts and bolts, like the cross member, drive shaft, bell housing bolts, motor mounts, and other nuts and bolts that I had to loosen.

Next morning .... Time to get serious and greasy… turned on the air compressor, grabbed wrenches, and crawled under the truck.  Marked drive shafts and flanges, removed the rear drive shaft and front drive shaft.

Jack supported tranny.  Removed cross member… thank God for air compressors and my heavy duty impact tool!

Lowered tranny to get to the top bolts in the bell housing.  The first time I pulled did a clutch job on my 85, I did it without any air tools, and only two bottle jacks, wooden blocks, and tie downs…. I will NEVER :shake_head: do that again.  This time I used my nifty Harbor Freight transmission jack.

I used 3 long 1/2 “ extensions and sockets to get the tranny bolts loose from the back of engine.  I should have removed the stabilizer bar, so now I’ll have to do to lower the tranny & t-case and get to them from under the truck.

I blocked up the engine at the oil pan and slightly raised and lowered the tranny jack to get the input shaft to pull out of the clutch disc and pilot bearing. I had to make love to it for awhile!

Next I took video and photos of the engine compartment… but I screwed up and DID NOT take enough!  :hammerhead:

Got very hot (110d F) in the garage :outtahere:… stopped for an ice cold Monster Rehab and Arizona Ice Tea. :beerchug:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 03, 2016, 11:37:37 AM
 :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 03, 2016, 12:45:40 PM
12:46 PM AZ time, I have the guides, tensioner, sprockets, and chain installed.  I'm checking the 2 cover gaskets for clearance and fit and see the tips of both gaskets that touches the bottom of the head are too long by about 1/16 of an inch, causing it bulge a little. I'm going to carefully trim them.

Do you guys apply RTV (I've got The Right Stuff) on the entire top edge of the t-cover where it mates to the bottom of the head?

I plan to use Permatex High Tack for the gaskets on the block.

Thanks,

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 03, 2016, 01:17:47 PM
Just finishing up my re rebuild and the fsm calls for sealant only on the edges of the cover where it meets the head. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 03, 2016, 08:30:08 PM
Well.... I'm more than a little angry.

I attempted to install the timing cover and it will not fit over the locating pins.... not even close.

So..... I buggered up the two gaskets trying to get it on.  I removed cam sprocket and chain, and the head.  I mic'd the locating holes in the cover and the pins on the block.... the holes are the same diameter as the pins.

I cannot figure out how this cover ever fit onto the block.  So this cover is NOT the same cover that came off my engine....  Or... while the machine shop was doing their thing to my block they somehow buggered up the locating pins in the block, or the removed them and had to replace them and distorted the metal pressing them back in?

I don't know... but I'm very upset.

I will take my little Dremel tool and grind out the holes 3 or 4 thousandths, and try it again in the AM.  If it will fit over the locating pins easily, I'll have probably have to wait until Tuesday to buy new gaskets.  If it does not fit, then on Tuesday morning I'll have a serious conversation with the machine shop.

On another issue, after looking at the oil pump that came in the white box from engnblder's Master Kit, it looks like poor quality compared to the factory oil pump.  It came in a white box, NOT a DNJ box.  Since oil pumps don't usually wear out like a water pump, I'm thinking I'll reinstall the one that come off the engine.

Remember.... 4th of July fireworks and gun shots can scare your pets - dogs and cats - Please make sure they are safe and aren't able to run off and disappear like many do during the 4th and New Years.

Have a safe and happy 4th of July!   :biggthumpup:

Don't forget to put your American Flag out tomorrow!   :usa:

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 05, 2016, 05:59:54 AM
OK, I figured out why I could not get the T-cover to fit up against the block.

Yesterday at 105 d F in the garage wanting to make some progress, dripping sweat, hungry, thirsty, crotchety, not thinking clearly. 

I could not locate the cover on the locating ring dowels. I thought the cover would not slip onto the dowels. It's my own inexperience and overly analytical syndrome.  :shake:

So at 3:25am this morning, I've had 2 cups of coffee, engaged a fresh 6 pack of brain cells, something told me the ring dowels and cover is not the problem. I went out to the garage and removed the chain guides.  BINGO!!.... the cover slipped on perfectly, no resistance. PROBLEM: The driver side metal chain guide is not made correctly and would not allow the cover to move over enough to the upper location dowel.  Basically the holes in the guide for the bolts need to be slotted or more accurately drilled.  I don’t know the engineering design or the manufacturer of this guide, but I will talk to engbldr about it.  The metal backed guide does fix the very common design flaw with the plastic OEM style guide where the material around the bolt holes was totally insufficient!  After 46+ years since this engine style has been available, you’d think someone would have figured out a fix to the very common cause of engine failure WAY before!!

Buying parts that don't fit, defective out of the box. not the correct part, and all other crap that you buy that makes you stop your progress and usually costs you time and money, is on my top 10 all time list of "Guaranteed to make blood shoot out of my eyes".

Are there any of you guys or gals out there that have installed the “metal backed guide” and had to replace them for any reason?

I bought new gaskets yesterday, so I'm ready to start again this morning.

Sorry the photo posted twice and I don't know how to remove one of them?
Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 05, 2016, 09:43:11 AM
For the folks out there, like me, who wants to attempt an engine rebuild, is a reasonably good mechanic, has the right tools, or access to them, has the time and money, and feels good about doing it yourself.

July 5th, 2016…Some of the things I’ve learned and experienced so far about MY rebuild and this project…..

BUDGET:  My target budget and time to complete R&R was under estimated.  I have an Excel spreadsheet, tracking my expenses and all parts purchased…. So far I’m right about $3,500 out of pocket… ouch.  I started around May 9th.

WEATHER: Don’t start a rebuild during the summer in Phoenix area Arizona unless your shop is air conditioned.

ENGINE REMOVAL AND DISASSEMBLY: Take lots of videos and photos of every part of the removal process. Mark locations for reinstall and put into containers every nut and bolt as you remove them.

PARTS CLEANING:  I used my large Home Depot concrete mixing tub to clean big parts.  I used paint thinner from Wal-Mart. I used a plastic roller brush paint tray for nuts, bolts and small parts.  At the end of the day, I poured the used paint thinner back into the gallon jugs, wiped the tub out, and put the tub outside to keep it from stinking up the garage. I used fresh paint thinner on final clean.  I used acetone (1 gal from Wal-Mart) to clean all oil, paint, or paint thinner off gasket surfaces.  Old T-shirts work well for rags. I can’t image not having an air compressor and air tools.

NITRILE GLOVES - I bought 5mil and 9mil blue nitrile gloves from Harbor Freight – love those gloves – cheap and work great when you have to have clean hands to do something.

TIME FRAME:  3 weeks and multiple trips to machine shop were not anticipated.  1 week for them to check out block.  1 week to order and get parts for machine shop.  1 week for machine shop to clean, check, machine, mic rods, mains, and crank.

MACHINE WORK: Don’t deck the block more than recommended to clean deck unless you plan to consider issues with cam timing (adjustable cam gear), raised compression, and over-heating issues.

BEFORE INSTALLLING ANY PARTS – lay out the gaskets and all associated parts.
 
CHECK BEFORE INSTALLATION:  Always check the fit of the timing chain cam cover before attempting to install it.  Same for installing a new pilot bearing and clutch disc during a clutch job.  ALWAYS…. Check that the new  pilot bearing will fit easily over the tip of the tranny input shaft and that the new clutch disc will easily slip over the splines on the tranny input shaft… BEFORE attempting to slide the tranny into the bell housing.

SEALANT:  Permatex High Tack doesn’t seem adhere well to block – it’s very messy to work with out of the brush container. It does come in a spray can – which was recommended by the machine shop – I just could find it in stock.  I’m not sure that it is a good gasket sealer.

Permatex Form-a-Gasket #2 non-hardening adheres very well – I used it on the freeze plugs, and on the threads for the allen head plugs (3), drain plug on block, an hex head oil plug next the oil filter.

Permatex the Right Stuff is very sticky and thick – probably will be great for oil pan without a gasket – won’t use the cork gasket that comes in the kit.  I think a thin layer on the surface where the T-chain cover mates with the head gasket will work well.  I plan to use Permatex Ultra Black for the timing cover, water pump, and oil pump.

Permatex Ultra Black – I haven’t used it yet.

PARTS AND ORDERING:
@ BLOCK PLUGS - I didn’t know the machine shop would remove and the five plugs on the block, and I didn’t photograph them.  I would have ordered new allen plugs and hex plug kit to replace the ones the machine shop removed.  The machine didn’t say anything, and destroyed two of plugs removing them. I ordered replacements from 22RE Performance. 

@ EXHAUST HEADER STUDS – remove exhaust studs from old head to make sure you can use them or have to order new ones.

@ INTAKE MANIFOLD STUDS – the 3 studs will NOT come without destroying them.  I had to make a trip to Toyota dealer to buy new ones and they didn’t stock both sizes.  Bought studs at Ace Hardware…way cheaper.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: helipilot77 on Jul 05, 2016, 09:37:18 PM
I have been using permatex aviation gasket maker to coat my gaskets lately and have gotten excellent results. I have all but sworn off any kind of silicone product.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 05, 2016, 11:08:33 PM
First, i commend you! I had such an awesome time a couple years ago rebuilding mine!  I live a few miles from Tod ENGNBLDR, and I'm both surprised and sorry you had that experience with his products... I'd be surprised if he doesn't send you some new guides if you send those back...

Second, for the oil pan, you want to use FIPG from the dealership. Make sure the sealing surface is flat where the bolts go through.. often times people use the fel pro gaskets and it bends the area around the built holes on the pan, causing it to cut/split the gasket and leak...
 If O'Reillys is closer, you could use #2 sealant, but FIPG (form in place gasket) is what you should use. Do not use the fel-pro cork/rubber gasket.

Third, don't install the header (I have Doug thorley's Tri Y header) until the engine is in with the tranny bolted on.

You want to use REMFLEX exhaust gaskets! It'll come in a kit of 2 or 3.. for the header, O2 sensor if you have one, and the triple flange after the collector.
Remflex gaskets are 100% graphite with a 50% crush rating.. you don't have to retorque them either, although I admit I tried to.
For the exhaust studs, i used a high temp red loctite. Hasn't failed yet!

Finally, don't forget the ground wires for the injectors lol... took me a couple days figuring that one out haha..

Straight pipe through a flowmaster and you'll have such a sweet sound! The 261 cam is worth it!


Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 03:38:25 AM
I have been using permatex aviation gasket maker to coat my gaskets lately and have gotten excellent results. I have all but sworn off any kind of silicone product.

Hi h,

My dad was an auto mechanic and that's all he used for gaskets.  Autozone didn't have it in stock the day I shopped for sealant, so I bought other Permatex.  The brush bottle is less messy than using stuff out of tube and finger it on.  I have over $40 invested in sealant/RTV, so I guess another $8 or $9 bucks won't destroy my already blown budget.

Gaskets always give me a flashback to the late 50's early 60's, my dad liked old cars and I was always in garage helping him keep them running. We were poor, so he had limited tools and limited funds to repair his old cars.  He taught me how to make gaskets out of cereal boxes!  I took a ball-peen hammer (he called it "the ball & thingy" hammer), and with the ball part, gently pound around the sharp edges part, and bolt holes, and cut out the gasket. Then I'd spread on some form-a-gasket with the little brush.  I loved the smell of it.

Thanks for the input and tip!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 04:27:35 AM
First, i commend you!... I'd be surprised if he doesn't send you some new guides if you send those back... 

Hi e,

Thanks. Yeah, I'm glad I decided to rebuild it myself.  I'm way slower than the average at auto-anything, but I try hard not to do it twice.  Putting everything back together is really frustrating because I'm not sure of the sequence of how I disassembled some parts.  :confused:

I spoke to Tod yesterday. He is very knowledgeable and very nice guy.  He explained that over 20 years of selling the metal guide, he's had "only a handful of out 1000's sold" with a clearance issue.  On the block the metal guide sat over 1/8" too far to the inside of the cover. I find it hard to imagine that my block and stock factory cover can be that for off compared to other blocks and covers.

I suggested that the guide needs to have the bolt holes slotted, like the OEM guides. No point to send me a new one, it would have the same problem.  I slotted the 2 holes and it fits perfectly now.

I've taken notes from your post... excellent info! :thumbs:    Unless you are a mechanic that works on Toyotas, as Toyota owner, a disadvantage is that you don't get much "practice".

I also asked Tod again about the 261C vs the 268.  He said the 261C is the best profile for my truck (31" tires, 4:10 diff).  He said the 268 cam will produce torque and HP in the upper RPM range. 

On the #3 exhaust rocker pad being off about .050" from the center of the cam lobe. He said it's "common" defect the 22s, and should not cause any issues with the cam lobe or rocker pad as long as the rocker lash bolt is sitting in the center of the valve stem.

I'm learning new stuff every day!  By 2026 I could be at  "expert" status.  :gap:

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on Jul 06, 2016, 09:39:15 AM
" I'm learning new stuff every day!  By 2026 I could be at  "expert" status. " This is about where I'm at with my rebuild experience as well, that and maybe I'll be done by 2026   :rofl2:

I'm a fan of the aviation form a gasket as well, that and ultra grey, depending on the application.   Aviation is the best thing I've found for trans/tcase's when used with marlins paper gaskets.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 11:18:29 AM
.....  and maybe I'll be done by 2026   :rofl2:

Hi t,

Are doing a rebuild on your 22RE, or have you done one in the recent past?

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on Jul 06, 2016, 11:42:52 AM

Hi t,

Are doing a rebuild on your 22RE, or have you done one in the recent past?

Gnarls.



I am at the tail end of my first rebuild. I hope not to be doing another for a long time to come :crossed:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 06, 2016, 12:31:27 PM
Gnarly, are you sure it's the guides you're having problems with? I installed the Engnbldr chain kit a while ago and never had a problem but when I was installing my new timing cover from Engnbldr it seemed like there was less clearance for the LCE timing kit I had.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 01:24:18 PM
Gnarly, are you sure it's the guides you're having problems with? I installed the Engnbldr chain kit a while ago and never had a problem but when I was installing my new timing cover from Engnbldr it seemed like there was less clearance for the LCE timing kit I had.

Hi M,

I appreciate the input.

Yes, I'm positive the two bolt holes in the metal rail were located too far inward towards the center of the engine, by .14", a little over an 1/8".  When I tried to locate the cover onto the upper and lower locating dowels, the cover would touch the rubber on outside of the guide - no amount of pressure would move 1/8th of an inch!  My block is factory, my TC cover is factory Toyota.  I may have just one of those weird deals, but I doubt it.  If I were engbldr I'd have those the metal guide holes sloted, or relocate the bolt holes during manufacturing.

As I mentioned before, I sloted the holes with rat-tail file and bingo.... she slipped right on.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 01:27:39 PM
I am at the tail end of my first rebuild. I hope not to be doing another for a long time to come :crossed:



Tail end??? Tail end is great!  I'd love to be at the tail end!  Where in the "sequence of events" are you?

I just installed the timing chain, cover, water pump, oil pump, torqued the head, installed the big water pipe, the little water pipe. I'm about to install the intake manifold and ERG pipe, etc.

And, a big FLIPP'N  YES to "not to be doing another for a long time to come"!!!!!


Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on Jul 06, 2016, 01:46:29 PM
Tail end??? Tail end is great!  I'd love to be at the tail end!  Where in the "sequence of events" are you?

I just installed the timing chain, cover, water pump, oil pump, torqued the head, installed the big water pipe, the little water pipe. I'm about to install the intake manifold and ERG pipe, etc.

And, a big FLIPP'N  YES to "not to be doing another for a long time to come"!!!!!


Gnarls.

Hahaha, I meant I'm about done with the hard part. Bottom end is completely assembled and the head is on. I had an issue with the rocker assemble, so I'm waiting on parts, they should be here Friday.  I hope to have the engine running by Monday or Tuesday, we will see.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 06, 2016, 02:18:21 PM
It must be in the air to rebuild 22re's. I just dropped mine in last Sunday and am waiting for the injectors to come back.  Good to know about that issue with Engnbldr's timing set thoug!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 02:34:50 PM
It must be in the air to rebuild 22re's. I just dropped mine in last Sunday and am waiting for the injectors to come back.  Good to know about that issue with Engnbldr's timing set thoug!

Hi M,

Are you doing complete rebuild.  Engine out of truck?  Who did you send your injectors to?  Are you doing any "extras" while rebuilding it?



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 02:39:36 PM
....  Good to know about that issue with Engnbldr's timing set thoug!

Well... like Tod said, it may just be my unusual engine block and TC cover issue.  :dunno: 

But, I'd like to hear about anyone else that has installed engbldr's T-C kit lately.  :headscratch:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 06, 2016, 03:57:52 PM
My last engine snapped a rod and blew out the block. The only extras I did was put in a 261 cam from Engnbldr with his stock replacement head. The injector deal ended up being a huge mess and either USPS, the company they drop them off to or Witchhunter(which I doubt) lost mine so I ended up ordering some from LCE. If you aren't in a hurry I'd get them cleaned as I heard it makes quite a difference. I'm very interested in seeing your thoughts on the 261C with a header, I still have the stock manifold. The one thing I did for sure do was new engineotor mounts. I used GM transmission mounts which are Polly.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 06:22:46 PM
My last engine snapped a rod and blew out the block. The only extras I did was put in a 261 cam from Engnbldr with his stock replacement head. The injector deal ended up being a huge mess and either USPS, the company they drop them off to or Witchhunter(which I doubt) lost mine so I ended up ordering some from LCE. If you aren't in a hurry I'd get them cleaned as I heard it makes quite a difference. I'm very interested in seeing your thoughts on the 261C with a header, I still have the stock manifold. The one thing I did for sure do was new engineotor mounts. I used GM transmission mounts which are Polly.

Wow... rod snapped... isn't that rare for a 22?

261C, what made you chose that one?  I'd really like to hear how you like the 261.  Will you be able to compare it to your last engine?

Sorry to hear someone lost your injectors!  I have already sent mine to WitchHunter and have them sitting on my desk.

The stock header is a good stock header, but a DT header will be VERY noticeable, especially from 2500 to 3500 RPM.  The 22RE is a little sensitive to backpressure - it likes to feel some backpressure.  If you go too big on the exhaust system you will feel a noticeable drop in torque.

That's just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 06:28:17 PM
What do you guys like to use as gasket sealant on the intake manifold gasket, if any?  I'm leaning towards Ultra Black?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 06:31:54 PM
... I had an issue with the rocker assemble ...

My I ask what kind of issue?

Thanks,

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on Jul 06, 2016, 06:47:49 PM
My I ask what kind of issue?

Thanks,

Gnarls.




The rocker assemble was rebuilt with new shafts and reconditioned rocker arms and then used in a previous build for a short time (long story). Anyway, I had intended to re use the rocker assembly, but I found that the shafts had some how gotten chewed up. So now I have new shafts and rockers on the way.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 06, 2016, 06:52:23 PM
Yes it is, I have had a rod and a crankshaft break in the two trucks I've had, both were rolled though. I choose the 261C as I was leaning toward the 270 but E-mailed Engnbldr and he suggested I go with the 261 based on their being no intake mods and for exhaust I'll be running 2" to the muffler then 2.25 to the tail pipe.

What do you guys like to use as gasket sealant on the intake manifold gasket, if any?  I'm leaning towards Ultra Black?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

As for intake gaskets I've always bought Fel-pro ones. They've got sealant around the edges of the intake manifold to head section and I've never had a leak with them.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 06, 2016, 07:15:41 PM
... Engnbldr and he suggested I go with the 261 based on their being no intake mods and for exhaust I'll be running 2" to the muffler then 2.25 to the tail pipe.

Well I hope we have made the choice with the 261.  Yes, the 270 will trade off too much low end torque for high RPM power.  I need more torque.  I  will check out the Fel Pro gaskets.   Thanks.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 06, 2016, 07:27:11 PM
Also, look at picking up some M10x1.25 48mm studs and use those for the starter unless you still have the stock top stud for it. Makes life so so much easier. I will be comparing this one to my stock cam, which I could 75-80 in 4th with it.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 07, 2016, 07:18:46 AM
 :spin:
Also, look at picking up some M10x1.25 48mm studs and use those for the starter unless you still have the stock top stud for it. Makes life so so much easier. I will be comparing this one to my stock cam, which I could 75-80 in 4th with it.

Yes, I think I'd rather get cane'd than installl the starter... it's a bear!!

Gnarls in the garage hot and sweaty  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 07, 2016, 09:18:01 AM
Self education is a time consuming thing… 

I should have looked at all of the components and parts to check out their condition BEFORE. 

Now I have to stop again and take 1.5 hours to get to the Toy dealer and buy parts.  :willynilly:

…. I’m sure it’s because I’m deficient in more than 100 brain cells.  :yikes:

Here are the two water ports that are too rusty and better to replace them now.  :disturbed:


Gnarls  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 07, 2016, 12:00:25 PM
What do you guys like to use as gasket sealant on the intake manifold gasket, if any?  I'm leaning towards Ultra Black?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

For the intake gasket, I used permatex copper. It's great for higher heat seals like the intake, and works perfectly!

Make sure you're using Toyota red coolant. I buy 1 gallon, dump it in, and fill the rest with distilled water.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 07, 2016, 12:50:40 PM
For the intake gasket, I used permatex copper. It's great for higher heat seals like the intake, and works perfectly!

Make sure you're using Toyota red coolant. I buy 1 gallon, dump it in, and fill the rest with distilled water.


Hey e,

OK, I didn't think about P-copper, I have P-Form-a-gasket #2, P-High Tack, P-Ultra Black.

On the coolant.... like many motorheads I've done lots research on this often debated subject.  I have always used just green EG (ethylene Glycol) mixed with distilled water to 50/50.

Some experts have stated that DexCool has a high pH (alkaline) and can cause corrosion of aluminum surfaces.  The key thing is to make sure you check the pH of whatever coolant you use.  If the pH is too low - too acid, it can be corrosive to metal surfaces.  If the pH is too high - alkaline, it can be corrosive to aluminum alloy.  Over time, the pH typically goes lower, more acidic.

I <should> change my coolant when the pH goes above 10 or lower than 8, or about every 2 years.  You can buy very inexpensive coolant testers.

If you use DexCool or Toyota pink coolant, you should check the pH frequently to make sure it doesn't get too acidic.

I buy WalMart brand coolant...

That's just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 07, 2016, 01:25:16 PM
Same boat at Gnarly with the coolant. I have Walmart sitting in my garage with some distilled water. 22re performance says to use a coolant without any phosphates.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 07, 2016, 01:34:07 PM
Gotcha.. also, a good note here, the Toyota pink is a premix and is for vehicles 2005 and newer. The red (super long life) is for the older generations

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 07, 2016, 01:37:12 PM


22re performance says to use a coolant without any phosphates.

Also, make sure there aren't any silicates.
And if you have the original copper  radiator, the organic-acid-technology corrosion inhibitors aren't effective for those metals or the soldering used in those radiators.

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Jul 07, 2016, 04:04:08 PM
:spin:
Yes, I think I'd rather get cane'd than installl the starter... it's a bear!!

Gnarls in the garage hot and sweaty  :spin:

I am curious about this as we changed the starter on my 22RE on the road to Moab and it was about a 15 minute project in the Autozone parking lot. What makes yours so difficult?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 07, 2016, 04:52:27 PM
I am curious about this as we changed the starter on my 22RE on the road to Moab and it was about a 15 minute project in the Autozone parking lot. What makes yours so difficult?

Hi b,

Well.. I've always used extra long extensions to get to the top stud and nut and bottom bolt.  I do it from the front passenger side. I haven't had much practice at removing or installing them, so I may be doing it wrong. 

On my 85 straight axle it seemed like I had more room.  On my current '86 there is a little panel on the fender well that I can remove - never done that - but in my most recent disassembly I could not get to that panel.  This time the stud came out of the bell housing so, I will install it back into the bell housing with some blue Loctite before I drop the engine down onto the motor mounts.  I left the leads connected to the start and laying on the frame.  Since I have never pulled a 22 from a vehicle, I'm wasn't sure the best method for R&R'ing it.

It seems in the past to R&R a starter was always one of those deals that makes me swear at it..... that's probably not a good idea!

I've read posts by guys on other Toy forums that claim to rebuild a 22 in 6 hours.  I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'd sure love to witness that!  I've have spent well over 6 hours just cleaning parts and removing old gaskets! But as I always say, I'm way slower at this than the average.

How do your R&R a starter in 15 minutes?

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 07, 2016, 05:01:16 PM
I can do a starter in 15 minutes as I've pulled mine over 30 times in the last year trying to track down an issue with starting. But I'm also a small guy. 5'5" and have skinny arms and small hands so getting in there is easy. I think what makes it easier is not having A/C or being carbed.When I went from carbed to efi the starter was harder to replace but not to bad. But now with A/C I teach my self new ways to cuss trying to get it out.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 07, 2016, 05:55:22 PM
Update:  5:55 pm  - July 7, 2016

I called the Toyota dealer, Parts Dept couldn’t find the two water by-pass ports, so I called Jerry at 22RE Performance. The big one is available, the little is not.  I ordered the big one.  I did some internet research and could not find something that I could use.  So I cut off the rusty nipple and decided I will figure a way to insert a piece of copper or brass tubing as a nipple.

Since the very short distance that the tube/nipple can be inserted, it may be tricky to get something to seal.  The other option is to fully insert a tube, then drill the end of the inserted part from the little press fit end.

Any suggestions are welcomed!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 07, 2016, 05:57:26 PM
Go to a radiator shop and have them silver solder a new one in.. or almost anyone who can silver solder should be able to help you out. Fittings only cost me about $25 to have connected

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 07, 2016, 06:00:30 PM
Go to a radiator shop and have them silver solder a new one in.. or almost anyone who can silver solder should be able to help you out. Fittings only cost me about $25 to have connected

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



Hi e,

Thanks.  Can I silver solder a piece in myself with my propane torch and some silver solder?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 07, 2016, 06:02:31 PM
I wouldn't. From what i gathered when i was doing my fuel line fittings, propane doesn't transfer enough heat.
But if propane does work, be careful with the flux.. i don't see why someone couldn't just silver solder in a barbed fitting if they're good at it

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 07, 2016, 06:06:56 PM
I wouldn't. From what i gathered when i was doing my fuel line fittings, propane doesn't transfer enough heat.
But if propane does work, be careful with the flux.. i don't see why someone couldn't just silver solder in a barbed fitting if they're good at it

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



OK, I'll check out my local radiator shop tomorrow morning.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Jul 07, 2016, 08:37:33 PM
Quote from: Gnarly4X link=topic=100729.msg1124932#msg1124932 date=1467935547.

How do your R&R a starter in 15 minutes?

[/quote

Here is my buddy changing the starter.  I think he did all of it from this angle.  I guess my lift, tires, shock hoops, etc., add up to make access pretty easy.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 07, 2016, 08:57:34 PM
Update:  5:55 pm  - July 7, 2016

I called the Toyota dealer, Parts Dept couldn’t find the two water by-pass ports, so I called Jerry at 22RE Performance. The big one is available, the little is not.  I ordered the big one.  I did some internet research and could not find something that I could use.  So I cut off the rusty nipple and decided I will figure a way to insert a piece of copper or brass tubing as a nipple.

Since the very short distance that the tube/nipple can be inserted, it may be tricky to get something to seal.  The other option is to fully insert a tube, then drill the end of the inserted part from the little press fit end.

Any suggestions are welcomed!

Gnarls.


Tap the hole for a npt fitting.

Then screw a nipple into it.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 08, 2016, 04:21:21 AM
Tap the hole for a npt fitting.

Then screw a nipple into it.

Hi e,

Thank you for the input.

That is exactly how I first looked at an option.  Drill the port, tap it with NP tap, screw in a new nipple. 

I spent some time online and at 3 stores here in CG. trying to locate a threaded nipple that was small enough for the square port. I suppose there's one out there, but - as we used to say in sand dunes - I'm burning daylight as I encounter these delays.

Plan B - drill out the port, insert a brass or copper tube, silver solder it, drill the port from the bottom to make sure the inserted part does not block the water flow.

I'm happy that there parts out there for a 30 year old engine, but we should be aware that some parts are not, and fabricating some replacements are going to be part of keeping these old truck alive.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 08, 2016, 04:46:24 AM
:)bestgen4runner [08:41 PM]:   I am a Master mechanic, Started working on cars at 12, (really) I specilize in Toyota, master diagnostic toyota mechanic for 13+ years

I clipped that from the chat window...

Geezz b, I just want to say thank you for being here and all that you are willing to share to help us DIYers!  :smooch:  :thumbs:  :beerchug: :clap:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 08, 2016, 11:04:50 AM
7-8 pm - Update on small water by-pass port…

I fabricated a repair with a brass nipple cut off from the piece I bought yesterday.  I drilled the hole with a 5/16” bit.  I filed the end of the brass nipple so I could tap it in with a ball peen hammer.  I don’t think it will leak, but I can silver solder it if I have to.  Since it sits on top of the manifold next to the themostat housing I can see if it leak and get to it to fix it.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 08, 2016, 11:44:01 AM
With silver solder, you need to apply the flux inside the connection, and it will pull the solder inside the hoping, sealing it. Don't try to apply it to the exterior of the joint the way you might weld it, that will just end up leaking.

Looks like a factory fit though :thumbs:

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 08, 2016, 01:52:47 PM
With silver solder, you need to apply the flux inside the connection, and it will pull the solder inside the hoping, sealing it. Don't try to apply it to the exterior of the joint the way you might weld it, that will just end up leaking.

Looks like a factory fit though :thumbs:

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk 

Hi e,

Thanks. I've only used my propane torch on copper fitting for plumbing fixes.  Never tried silver soldering anything.  I have a mig welder, and learned how to weld with a home made buzz box and rods when I was about 12 years old.   I am taking my time with this rebuild.  I'm very glad I decided to do it myself.  I know without a doubt that anyone of a couple "auto mechanic repair shops" I talked to would NOT have fixed, replaced questionable parts, fabricated parts that are now unavailable, or taken the time to properly clean gasket surfaces and remove old RTV from bolts, clean the grease and paint parts, etc.

OK, I don't think there is much pressure in that brass pressed in tube, maybe same as the radiator - around 13 lbs? 

I will dab the joint with some nitrocellulose dissolved in some butyl acetate.  That's should seal up good. 

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 09, 2016, 06:08:52 AM
Subject:  Oil Pan sealant

I squirted a bead of Permatex "the Right Stuff" on my very clean oil pan yesterday.  I let it dry overnight. This morning I don't like the feel. It is very rubbery and if I mount it, it will have only slight adhesion to the block since it's dried up some.. not tacky to the touch.

So, I scraped it all off.  That "stuff" is expensive compared to a tube of Ultra Black or other RTV.

Leaving it to dry too long seems to reduce the tackiness and adhesion to the block.  Although I may have a lack of experience, my gut says that the seal would be better if the sealant was tacky on both surfaces - the block and the pan.  Of course if I bolt the pan on and the RTV is too squishy, I don't want any RTV floating around in my crankcase.

I have "HAS" (hyper analytical syndrome) and I'm probably being too overly analytical. ::)

Gnarls  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Jul 09, 2016, 08:34:40 AM
The best sealer is Toyota FIPG. Every Toyota dealer has it in stock. It is different than the " wrong stuff" or any silicone you buy from auto part store.
Save your self the pain of doing things twice.
There is no better than what Toyota offers. You will find that to be true in most cases.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 09, 2016, 09:45:37 AM
I agree about fipg. However if you can't get to the dealer and you're near an O'Reilly auto parts place, get this gasket sealant. It stays tacky but still.. fipg is best with no cork/rubber gasket..

(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160709%2Fa4560caf260423e9741072f661e4afc8.jpg&hash=67ad91aedd2ebb373a9a2b2f00291909)

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 09, 2016, 02:49:40 PM
I glue an oil pan gasket to the pan with ultra black.

Put some plastic wrap on floor.

Set oil pan (with gasket) on plastic wrap

Add some weight to oil pan

Let sit overnight.

Then more ultra black on gasket when installing pan/gasket to engine.


Since you've glued the gasket to the pan,  it doesn't squirm around and try to escape when installing on engine.

Never had a leak doing this.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 09, 2016, 03:50:18 PM
I appreciate the input guys   :thumbs:

Geez... and not surprising, there are about as many recipes for sealing the oil pan as there are for home made pork ribs!!

A couple weeks ago, I checked with an expert Toyota 22RE person and they recommended no gasket, just RTV and let it sit 8 hrs or overnight.   The engines apparently came from the factory with no gasket, just sealant FIPG 

As I mentioned, leaving it dry up will not adhere well to the block - no tacky, less sticky.

The trick to letting the gasket set up on the pan, then adding some RTV, or whatever is your favorite flavor, when installing it seems good.  It seems with the "no gasket" deal, I will have to make sure the bead of sealant is fairly level and uniform, no gaps.  With the gasket, I can spread a fairly even layer on its flat surface.

The cork gaskets are known to squish out when tightening the bolts.

OK, it seems to me that if the pan is going leak crankcase oil, it will want to do that on the pan surface and around the path of least resistance - the bolt holes.   If the block surface is sealed well, the oil would have more difficultly seeping through that sealant barrier.

Candidly, I think that just about any of the popular oil resistant sealants will work fine if properly applied to the pan and block. 

Permatex says that Ultra Black is their "maximum oil sealant RTV".  the Right Stuff is a gasket maker and "formed in place" rubber material.  I have The Right Stuff in an aerosol can and it squirts out of little nozzle.

I'm going by my gut and use my own recipe, and a combination of some other hot tips. :beerchug:



Gnarls  :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Jul 09, 2016, 04:27:03 PM
 :nerv:
I checked with an expert Toyota 22RE person and they recommended no gasket, just RTV and let it sit 8 hrs or overnight.   The engines apparently came from the factory with no gasket, just sealant FIPG.

I have never met a Toyota 22re expert person but He or She sounds very knowledgeable. I would Just do Whatever the Toyota expert say.  :_oops:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 09, 2016, 04:33:39 PM
Correction, 85 and later 22re oil pans you don't use a gasket, that's why there's a dimple going in. On 84 and earlier oil pans you do use a gasket as that bump is pointed out to help seal the oil pan to the block.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Jul 09, 2016, 04:41:45 PM
Correction, 85 and later 22re oil pans you don't use a gasket, that's why there's a dimple going in. On 84 and earlier oil pans you do use a gasket as that bump is pointed out to help seal the oil pan to the block.

 :respekt:
Solid accurate Knowledge.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 02:20:52 PM
Does this flange require a gasket?  No gasket that fits that came in the "Master Kit"?

It's the Heater Water Outlet Pipe.  The photo is looking at the bottom of the intake manifold.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 10, 2016, 02:29:26 PM
Yeah, this should definitely have a gasket.. I'd double check that master kit, then email Tod of you can't find it.. this is the pipe that bolts to the backside of the water pump right? Be sure to use permatex blue, be for water pumps and thermostat housings

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 02:38:01 PM
Yeah, this should definitely have a gasket.. I'd double check that master kit, then email Tod of you can't find it.. this is the pipe that bolts to the backside of the water pump right? Be sure to use permatex blue, be for water pumps and thermostat housings

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



I triple checked all remaining gaskets in the kit.  Tried each one several times.  No bueno!!

I see by the diagram it show a small ring washer. But my gut says it should have a gasket on the flange as well??

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 03:00:48 PM
My gut says there is a phenolic ... or rubber... ring that sits in the port.   :yesnod:

No ring or anything close came in the kit.  :shakehead:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 03:07:17 PM
Well, this looks like it.  It's an O'ring... looks like rubber??

http://www.lceperformance.com/Heater-Tube-O-Ring-Under-EFI-Manifold-22RE-OEM-Toy-p/1060012.htm

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 03:16:09 PM
Again *whiny mode on*....

If these sources are selling 100's of these "Master Rebuild Kits", WHY don't they include ALL the pieces you will need?  And.... if the don't or can't, OK, but can someone say "YOU will also need this, and that, and the other thing, that does NO T come in our Master-Flipp'n-Rebuild Kit"~~~~!!  :think:

*Whiny mode off*

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 10, 2016, 03:17:27 PM
I remember that my master rebuild kit came with it.. i can go grab one from Tod tomorrow and send it

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 03:29:34 PM
I remember that my master rebuild kit came with it.. i can go grab one from Tod tomorrow and send it

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OK well, my kit is defective.  e, that's mighty nice of you, ONLY if that's not too much inconvenience for you - seriously. I looked for one on Marlincrawler.com, but I could not find one.

LCE's site popped right up when I google'd it.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 03:32:27 PM
So once I get the little O'ring, I still would like to seal the flange at the port with some RTV??

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 03:40:30 PM
Just so you guys know I'm not whacko.... I've attached a photo of 2 rings that came in the little plastic bag with the seals for the rocker arm cover.  I checked very carefully to see if either one would fit inside the port... NO BUENO.

And... I'm not yet sure what those two rings will go to by the time I get to find out.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 10, 2016, 03:57:09 PM
Yes it uses an o ring with no sealant. You can get one at your local parts store, it's what I always do.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 04:14:08 PM
Yes it uses an o ring with no sealant. You can get one at your local parts store, it's what I always do.

Hey M,

No sealant... hmmmm... its a water pipe connection.

I'll mic the little shelf that it sits on and then I'll go to Ace-is-the-place and see what I can find.

Thanks.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Jul 10, 2016, 04:15:39 PM
Just so you guys know I'm not whacko.... I've attached a photo of 2 rings that came in the little plastic bag with the seals for the rocker arm cover.  I checked very carefully to see if either one would fit inside the port... NO BUENO.

And... I'm not yet sure what those two rings will go to by the time I get to find out.

Gnarls.

Does the rubber o ring fit the bottom of the 710 cap..... Wait,oil cap
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 10, 2016, 04:18:00 PM
Gnarly, I fought a leak from there until I put the O-ring in. After that it never leaked and I didn't use any sealant. I had used sealant before but it didn't hold. There's no pressure in that hose as well, all that area does it give you your coolant temp.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Jul 10, 2016, 04:21:32 PM
there is a o ring on that water pipe, that may be it. I bet copper washer is for some sensor
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 04:26:34 PM
Does the rubber o ring fit the bottom of the 710 cap..... Wait,oil cap

Oil cap???.... the oil pan drain plug??.... no it does not.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 04:27:35 PM
Gnarly, I fought a leak from there until I put the O-ring in. After that it never leaked and I didn't use any sealant. I had used sealant before but it didn't hold. There's no pressure in that hose as well, all that area does it give you your coolant temp.

OK.... got it.  I'm going to Ace to see what they have.

Thanks again for all the input!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Jul 10, 2016, 04:32:15 PM
Oil cap???.... the oil pan drain plug??.... no it does not.

Gnarls.

sorry nothing to reference size with, stick a dollar bill next to it
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 05:20:52 PM
sorry nothing to reference size with, stick a dollar bill next to it

Yeah, I after posted those I realized there's no frame of reference.   :smack:  Good idea!   :thumbs:

 I'll put an object next to the object I'm photographing next time I do that.

Because I'm so short on dollar bills, can I use a copper penny?  :gap:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 05:38:47 PM
Object reference for size...

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 05:42:46 PM
Got an O'ring from Ace Hardware...

I'd still like to give the O'ring a very light coat of Permatex Form-a-gasket No. 2?? .... just for poop 'n giggles?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 05:46:53 PM
Hey excabswap.... I got that O'ring.  I thank you very much for your kind offer!  You should experience a little deposit in your Karma Bank!!  :biggthumpup:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 10, 2016, 05:48:24 PM
Hey no worries. Just be sure that you use the blue permatex.. it says thermostat housing and water pump on it

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 05:58:26 PM
Hey no worries. Just be sure that you use the blue permatex.. it says thermostat housing and water pump on it

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



Holy Crapity!!  :yikes:  Another Permatex!!  :yikes: Geez... I need to buy some Permatex stock!!  :greengrin:

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Slabzilla on Jul 10, 2016, 06:04:07 PM
I always put some red RTV on that O-ring. No gasket, as it will space the O-ring too far away for a good seal. Been working on vehicles since I was 8, so when you get to tightening that pan gasket (cork) watch the edge of the gasket as you are snugging the bolts down and when the gasket JUST starts to bulge out a Little, THAT'S TIGHT, go no further and you will have no leaks. You're on the right track with being detailed.   :biggthumpup:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 10, 2016, 06:07:39 PM
Here ya go.. this is a different product..
Yup lots of kinds of permatex haha
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160711%2F832b15998305499d7727aa06244232af.jpg&hash=1326a440ec0a3707b96faafe3167371b)

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 06:20:26 PM
I always put some red RTV on that O-ring. No gasket, as it will space the O-ring too far away for a good seal. Been working on vehicles since I was 8, so when you get to tightening that pan gasket (cork) watch the edge of the gasket as you are snugging the bolts down and when the gasket JUST starts to bulge out a Little, THAT'S TIGHT, go no further and you will have no leaks. You're on the right track with being detailed.   :biggthumpup:

Hi S,

Well...... I already did my oil pan.   Hopefully it sealed right.  I was going to use a gasket, and then I decided to try it without one, since the cork gaskets do have a tendency to squish out.  I didn't RTV it and leave it overnight that was recommended.  I used the rest of my expensive the Right Stuff, let it dry for about 1 hour. Layed the pan on the block. Let it sit for about 2 hours, then tighten the pan bolts just barely finger tight. Let it sit for another 2 hours, then torqued them down.  I got a little squish coming out on a couple places.   So.... I will know after I fire it up and check for leaks!!

There's so many ways to do stuff.  I tend to be more anal and cautious just because I don't have that much experience.

I appreciate the input!  I'm making notes from all the hot tips I get here!  :thumbs:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 10, 2016, 06:24:21 PM
Here ya go.. this is a different product..
Yup lots of kinds of permatex haha
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160711%2F832b15998305499d7727aa06244232af.jpg&hash=1326a440ec0a3707b96faafe3167371b)

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Where did you find that?? 

Just so you know, all of Permatex Ultra Series RTV is "sensor safe".

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 10, 2016, 06:40:30 PM
You can find it at O'Reilly auto parts.. the big reason i posted this type instead is because it's made for water pump type seals

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 12, 2016, 04:18:23 AM
Just an FYI,

Not that I had any doubts about the top notch expert gurus here on this forum... but I was curious what Peratex would say...

I got an email response from Permatex Technical Services.  They recommend Ultra Blue or Ultra Gray for the water temp sensing pipes.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 12, 2016, 11:38:19 AM
But those aren't temp sensor pipes, i thought you were doing the heater core bypass pipe...
 🤔
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Jul 12, 2016, 02:33:26 PM
I actually like the cork gasket on the older style 20R/22R pans.  They are usually flat though unlike the later model 22RE ones.  I used the cork with that spray on copper looking stuff and so far no leaks.

On the later style with the dips in the flange I have used both grey and black permatex with success and the Toyota stuff a few times too.

I have found that whatever I use, I have a better seal if I wipe the mating surfaces down with acetone before application.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 12, 2016, 07:07:49 PM
I actually like the cork gasket on the older style 20R/22R pans.  They are usually flat though unlike the later model 22RE ones.  I used the cork with that spray on copper looking stuff and so far no leaks.

On the later style with the dips in the flange I have used both grey and black permatex with success and the Toyota stuff a few times too.

I have found that whatever I use, I have a better seal if I wipe the mating surfaces down with acetone before application.

Hi H,

I think probably any of the popular Permatex gasket making products will work fine on the oil pan, with or without the cork gasket. If the cork gasket is allowed to "set up" some before torquing the bolts, I think it will seal fine. 

I bought 3 gallons of paint thinner for my basic degreasing, and 1 galllon of acetone for final cleaning.  I have used starting fluid as well for super cleaning.  For the carbon inside the intake manifold and throttle body, I used a little steel brush and carb and brake cleaner.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 12, 2016, 07:17:24 PM
But those aren't temp sensor pipes, i thought you were doing the heater core bypass pipe...
 

Hi e,

I called it a water temperature sensing pipe because there is a temperature sensor that sits on top of the port where the pipe flange and rubber O'ring sit.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 12, 2016, 07:35:21 PM
Update:  7-12-16

I was going to temporarily use my stock exhaust manifold, but discovered a micro-crack  :ack: where it was obviously over-heated when the engine ran out of coolant.

So... now I'm going to spend about $1,000  :yikes: for a Doug Thorley header and new 2.25" exhaust pipe, and will most likely have to buy a new cat and muffler.   :smack:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 12, 2016, 07:40:28 PM
My Doug thorley Tri Y was only 300 and i think i only paid 100 for the header back including the flowmaster... hope you find a good deal

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 12, 2016, 07:46:23 PM
My Doug thorley Tri Y was only 300 and i think i only paid 100 for the header back including the flowmaster... hope you find a good deal

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Hey e,

Yeah... back when I started my spreadsheet and plugged in estimated costs, I did some quick research on sources and costs, but I'll search for a good deal.

I'm now considering"fundmyproject"!! for some public benevolence. :sad2:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 14, 2016, 10:58:50 AM
I know you're on the tail end, but LCE is having a giveaway on their facebook and instagram account... a nice shiny header is one of the prizes! I'm not a big LCE fan for their header, but free is free!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 14, 2016, 08:01:30 PM
I know you're on the tail end, but LCE is having a giveaway on their facebook and instagram account... a nice shiny header is one of the prizes! I'm not a big LCE fan for their header, but free is free!

Hi e,

Gee, it would be nice feel like I'm at the "tail end".  I would like to get the engine back together this week end, and then prep the engine bay and get it ready to drop the engine back onto to the motor mounts, remount the A/C compressor, pulleys, alternator, etc.  I'm not going as fast as I thought I would.

Yes, I went to the FB and saw the ad.  I'm not a FB expert, so I won't tag any friends.  The LCE header is a 4-into-1 style and is known for it's high quality.  I don't think it would be any better than a Doug Thorley, but I don't have anything to compare it to.  From my understanding it's good for top end RPM but may trade off some lower RPM torque.  For my current build, cam & OS valves, I think the DT header is a better choice, BUT..... a free $400 header would be awesome.

It would be fun to chassis dyno the two headers and see the results.

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 14, 2016, 08:51:31 PM
Double check everything when reassembling. Just got mine fired up this week...and I have problems with the number 4 cylinder. I'd hate to see something like that happen to you Gnarly.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: kneedownnate on Jul 14, 2016, 11:38:49 PM
I know you're on the tail end, but LCE is having a giveaway on their facebook and instagram account... a nice shiny header is one of the prizes! I'm not a big LCE fan for their header, but free is free!

Look up lce vs doug thorley header.  Lots of stuff out there where people felt like they wasted their money on thorley, bought lce and were much happier. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 15, 2016, 10:21:15 AM
Double check everything when reassembling. Just got mine fired up this week...and I have problems with the number 4 cylinder. I'd hate to see something like that happen to you Gnarly.

What happened to #4?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 15, 2016, 10:26:31 AM
Just make sure you use REMFLEX gaskets for the header and you'll be fine. Most all the problems were because they didn't get a good seal at the head

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 15, 2016, 04:45:11 PM
Look up lce vs doug thorley header.  Lots of stuff out there...
 

Hi k,

Yeah, the problem for me is that I can't find anyone willing to share certified dyno test data.  So I can take from what
 LCE says and I take from DT what they say, and I cab take what everyone says who has an opinion, or has installed one, or both headers.

I'll do some more research.  It's been years since I was very actively involved in these 22s, so I'm a little behind.

I appreciate your input.

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Jul 15, 2016, 06:34:36 PM
I've ran both, honestly could not feel a seat of the pants difference.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 15, 2016, 07:20:40 PM
I'll bet either is better than stock though lol

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 15, 2016, 08:31:33 PM
I've ran both, honestly could not feel a seat of the pants difference.

Hey r,

Well, I installed a DT on my first '86 long bed automatic 22RE, I installed DT on my 22R 1985 short bed, 5-speed, and both times it was VERY noticeable for me.

My old butt dyno maybe a tad more sensitive?  :gap:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 15, 2016, 08:35:24 PM
Look up lce vs doug thorley header.  Lots of stuff out there where people felt like they wasted their money on thorley, bought lce and were much happier. 

Hi k,

Well, thank you for your post and poking me to do some research.  I spoke to LCE this afternoon.  I also did some web searches.  I still want to talk to a couple other 22 "experts" and get some more opinions.  But.. at this point I'm leaning heavily towards buying an LCE header!!... I'll go 2.25" on the exhaust pipe with free flow cat and muffler.

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 15, 2016, 08:41:40 PM
Just make sure you use REMFLEX gaskets for the header and you'll be fine. Most all the problems were because they didn't get a good seal at the head

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Well... I have read posts on a car forum that the Remflex gaskets are no good????

I'll probably go with the gasket that is supplied with the header from LCE.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 15, 2016, 08:43:36 PM
They have a 50% crush rate, 100% graphite and no re-torque needed

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on Jul 15, 2016, 09:10:41 PM
I've used remflex gaskets several times with great success. I would definitely recommend them when your having trouble getting a seal.  With a new lce header I would and do go with a factory Toyota graphite gasket and save the remflex for a warped header/manifold situation. :twocents:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 15, 2016, 09:33:41 PM
Factory manifold is actually a decent design on the 22re's. I'd buy a header but my future plans include a turbo so I don't see the point. Gnarly, number 4 piston is the one that blew a hole in my block and I'm pretty sure it bent a few valves. WHich of course I didn't check so now I get to pull the head off again. 3rd times the charm they say though!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: kneedownnate on Jul 15, 2016, 10:27:38 PM
Hi k,

No.  You can call me Nate or you can call me kneedownnate, but do not call me k.  Sorry to rant, but this is just lazy or trendy, and I don't need competition in either!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: kneedownnate on Jul 15, 2016, 10:38:20 PM
I've ran both, honestly could not feel a seat of the pants difference.

I've run a nwor tri-y (basically looks to be a thorley) and a generic long tube 4 into 1 for several years each.  The generic had a paper thing flange that leaked like a sieve but had great torque from around 500 rpm up when coupled with my 2.5" tubing - no cat.  I lost the bottom end grunt when I changed to 2.25", but every thread in every forum says 2.5 is too big so I must be wrong...  The nwor is built much, much better, but I've never been able to tune to it decently, though it will rev to the moon.  I partially blame my cam.

I now have the nwor, lce and downey headers and like certain aspects of each.  I feel each are well built and are likely about the same performance-wise, but am going to run the lce to see what difference making only that change will make, if any, though I am going to swap from the crap-tastic weber carb to a 22r carb.  Hopefully the carb change will not affect anything, which it shouldn't being they're within 1 cfm of each other. 

End thread jack  :burnout:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Jul 15, 2016, 11:06:16 PM
 :twocents:
I also ran the nwof header and was very impressed with the quality and performance.
noticeable difference in power and power band.
They are expensive or I would have one on this truck. It came with a pace setter header. all top end power with the pace setter. poor quality. reminds me of the old cheap headman headers.  :reg:
I also had the lce header on my  two wheel drive 22re truck. It is hard to compare 4x4 vs 4x2 but My lce header was again all top end power. the nwor header had a deffenant advantage at low rpm pull.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 04:41:48 AM
They have a 50% crush rate, 100% graphite and no re-torque needed

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk 

Yes, Remflex gets great reviews and I only read one bad review.

The fact that it "crushes" may be what causes it to leak... but I have no idea how someone uses the gasket, what gasket sealer they may use, or the condition of the header, the exhaust manifold, so I read posts and statements with some degree of skepticism.  One thing I have learned from being on these public "auto" forums since 1999 is there is a wide range of knowledge, experience, and Bravo Sierra.

Regarding retorquing header nuts.... If you don't check the header on a 22, and keep it properly seated against the exhaust ports, regardless of what gasket you use, it will tend to leak.  All three of my Toy truck with 22s have leaked at the exhaust. 

In my experience there's a tendency, over time, for the studs inside the head to corrode, powder, and spin. The different coefficient of expansion between the alloy head and the hardened steel studs causes this. The self-locking factory nuts cause too much torque on the small number of threads inside the soft head when torquing them.  I've posted this before.... I don't use the stock factory self-locking nuts.

I use a lock washer, hex nut, and hex jam nut.  I use red Loctite on the head threads, and anti-seize on the header threads.

I will check and retorque the nuts after an install 30 minutes after firing the engine. I will check them again around 50 miles and 200 miles.  If they are tight after around 200. I will check them again at around my 3K mile oil change.

That's just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 05:25:41 AM
No.  You can call me Nate or you can call me kneedownnate, but do not call me k.  Sorry to rant, but this is just lazy or trendy, and I don't need competition in either!

OK, Nate it is....

Yes, I use just the first letter of the forum name not because I'm lazy or have any need to be "trendy", but just to shorten my keyboard strokes and not spell it wrong.  Textual communications and conceptual semantics is an interesting topic, but I always respect how someone likes to be addressed.

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 05:34:34 AM
Geezz.. I have not read any comments about NWOR or Downey in years!  I didn't even know they still exist.

I like LCE's quality and the 1/2" main flange. DT's quality, or lack of, has always been a point in discussions.

As I mentioned, unless or until I can see a certified dyno test comparing an LCE and a DT header, the difference is mostly speculation and opinion to me.  I have my own experience to go by, but its still just opinion.

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 05:42:08 AM
... WHich of course I didn't check so now I get to pull the head off again. 3rd times the charm they say though!

Mudder, Mudder, Mudder.... shame on you!  I'll give you a little knuckle bump for admitting it here on the forum, but don't let it happen again.  :lipsrsealed:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 06:30:24 AM
...... though I am going to swap from the crap-tastic weber carb to a 22r carb.  Hopefully the carb change will not affect anything, which it shouldn't being they're within 1 cfm of each other. 

Really? You don't think you will notice any difference between a Weber and Aisin 22R carb?  :conf:

Gnarls. :spin:



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 08:23:41 AM
I've ran both, honestly could not feel a seat of the pants difference.

Hi redneckcustoms13,

I re-read your post.  Are you saying that you could NOT tell any difference between the LCE and DT, or that you could not tell any difference between the LCE & DT and the stock exhaust manifold?

Thanks,

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 08:40:34 AM
:twocents:
... but My lce header was again all top end power...

This is what I have read about from the guys who have run the LCE header - that is seems to move the HP number up in the RPM range, and that it is weaker on the lower RPM range for torque, compared to the tri-y DT?   

Since I've only run the DT headers on my 2 other 22s, I'll try the LCE header just to get some idea, but with a rebuild, 261C cam profile and OS valves, I will not have anything to compare it to directly.  Once I get the engine broken in, tuned, and replenish my Toy piggy bank, I'm going to take it in to Chuck's Speed Center in Phoenix, and have them chassis dyno it.  If I could easily and with a donation from Doug Thorley, I'd switch the header and run another test with the DT header. 

I am going to call Doug Thorley on Monday am and see if anyone will talk to me about any dyno testing they'v done.

I may still do another dyno test with a different cam since I'll have a really fresh engine.

Gnarls. :spin:


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 16, 2016, 08:44:59 AM
I haven't torqued my header since i installed it 2 years ago, and there's no sign of needing to. I did however use high temp thread locker on the studs and nuts..
If you go with remflex, there's no gasket sealer needed. These gaskets simply mold themselves into all the crevices on the head and header.
I like your idea of a lock washer, nut and jam nut. If i ever have to replace these, I'll probably go that route.

About not torquing the header since install: I've checked it with a torque wrench about a week after, then a month.. but every time, no spinning, just clicking.
$0.02

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 08:48:33 AM
I haven't torqued my header since i installed it 2 years ago, and there's no sign of needing to. I did however use high temp thread locker on the studs and nuts..
If you go with remflex, there's no gasket sealer needed. These gaskets simply mold themselves into all the crevices on the head and header.
I like your idea of a lock washer, nut and jam nut. If i ever have to replace these, I'll probably go that route.

About not torquing the header since install: I've checked it with a torque wrench about a week after, then a month.. but every time, no spinning, just clicking.
$0.02

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



OK, excabswap... you are another great testimonial for Remflex.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 16, 2016, 08:51:34 AM
Ok I'll quit preachin haha...
But the second you hold a remflex sample in one hand, and the gasket included with the header in the other...
I dunno, ENGNBLDR recommended it when i was at his shop, so there's another advocate.
Ok I'll keep quiet about it now haha

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 16, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
Ok I'll quit preachin haha...
But the second you hold a remflex sample in one hand, and the gasket included with the header in the other...
I dunno, ENGNBLDR recommended it when i was at his shop, so there's another advocate.
Ok I'll keep quiet about it now haha

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



Preaching is a good thing as long as you are preaching from the right Bible.   :biggthumpup:

"An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of preaching."

  ~ Mahatma Gandhi


Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: kneedownnate on Jul 16, 2016, 08:10:59 PM
I haven't torqued my header since i installed it 2 years ago, and there's no sign of needing to

Same here, factory toyota gasket, 7-8 years.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 18, 2016, 04:34:00 AM
Does this get a gasket or some type of sealer?

I believe this is an oil pressure sensor near the oil filter.

I don't see any gaskets in my "Master Kit" that will fit this sensor?  :-\

Any help will be appreciated.

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: SqWADoosh on Jul 18, 2016, 05:33:02 AM
Does this get a gasket or some type of sealer?

I believe this is an oil pressure sensor near the oil filter.

I don't see any gaskets in my "Master Kit" that will fit this sensor?  :-\

Any help will be appreciated.

Gnarls. :spin:

I would imagine either an o-ring or metal gasket/washer.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 18, 2016, 06:06:40 AM
I would imagine either an o-ring or metal gasket/washer.

Hi SqWADoosh,

Thanks for your input.

Yeah... I was thinking a copper ring gasket, but I don't have anything in my kit that will fit.  If it's an oil pressure sensor I would think there needs to be a very tight fit.

MY LESSON... is that when I was removing all these sensors and plugs, I should have documented if they had gaskets and what kind, AND photographed or video recorded these parts on the engine!!  I screwed up on that!

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: SqWADoosh on Jul 18, 2016, 06:17:08 AM
Hi SqWADoosh,

Thanks for your input.

Yeah... I was thinking a copper ring gasket, but I don't have anything in my kit that will fit.  If it's an oil pressure sensor I would think there needs to be a very tight fit.

MY LESSON... is that when I was removing all these sensors and plugs, I should have documented if they had gaskets and what kind, AND photographed or video recorded these parts on the engine!!  I screwed up on that!

Gnarls. :spin:

After looking at this: http://www.lceperformance.com/22RE-3VZ-OE-Oil-Pressure-Gauge-Sender-1985-1992-SR-p/1067005.htm

I don't think it does get any kind of seal/gasket. If it did then they would include it with the gauge just like they do everything else. I also couldn't find anything with a quick google search.

I did find this thread: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=91179.0 BigMike would have mentioned the possibility of a bad o-ring/gasket when troubleshooting for the guy if there was one. You'll notice he did not.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Jul 18, 2016, 06:42:20 AM
I have a 22re sitting in the garage, just took a look. I can confirm there is no o ring or metal gasket. IIRC I just used some liquid thread sealant  :thumbs:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 18, 2016, 06:44:41 AM
Gnarly, that's your knock sensor. OPS should be below the oil filter mount and it's more of a spade terminal
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 18, 2016, 07:08:24 AM
Gnarly, that's your knock sensor. OPS should be below the oil filter mount and it's more of a spade terminal

Hey Mudder.... yes!  The FSM indicates an oil pressure sensor!!  :shake:... after I posted this morning, I was thinking... isn't there a knock sensor???  :suprised:  Yes, the oil pressure sensor is the round black thing, where on my other trucks I installed a fitting, plastic tubing and a manual oil pressure AutoMeter Oil Pressure gauge.

Thanks for clarifying.  One or two of my old 68 brain cells sometimes misfire.   ;)

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 18, 2016, 07:11:22 AM
I have a 22re sitting in the garage, just took a look. I can confirm there is no o ring or metal gasket. IIRC I just used some liquid thread sealant  :thumbs:

Hey ovrarok,

Thanks for checking.  I figured one or more of you DIYers would know.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 18, 2016, 07:12:48 AM
After looking at this: http://www.lceperformance.com/22RE-3VZ-OE-Oil-Pressure-Gauge-Sender-1985-1992-SR-p/1067005.htm

I don't think it does get any kind of seal/gasket. If it did then they would include it with the gauge just like they do everything else. I also couldn't find anything with a quick google search.

I did find this thread: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=91179.0 BigMike would have mentioned the possibility of a bad o-ring/gasket when troubleshooting for the guy if there was one. You'll notice he did not.

Hey SqWADoosh,

You guys are too awesome!!  :biggthumpup:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 23, 2016, 11:52:32 AM
7-23 Update:

I've had a delay on moving forward for the past week.

I'm going to try to have this engine ready to drop into the engine bay by tomorrow.

I will have to install the throttle body after I lay the wiring harness, etc, onto the engine after its sitting on the frame motor mounts.

I want to clean the engine bay up before I drop it in.

Are there any hot tips anyone wants to share before I finish bolting what I can on?

Thanks,

Gnarls. :spin:






Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 23, 2016, 06:40:54 PM
Do you guys have any comments on the Toyota factory hose clamps?

I'm planning on replacing the factory clamps with the common stainless steel screw type.

But since several of the metal nipple tubes are rusted, I have to be careful not over clamp the hoses and crush them.  :yikes:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 23, 2016, 08:40:14 PM
I run a mix of both clamps. All I'll say is with the screw type make sure to tighten them down after installing everything! That way if you can't get to it now you can fix it.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 23, 2016, 08:53:40 PM
I run a mix of both clamps. All I'll say is with the screw type make sure to tighten them down after installing everything! That way if you can't get to it now you can fix it.

Hi Mudder,

Very good point!

Yes.... I am concerned about being able to get to some of those hose with a screw clamp.  I'm thinking that it will be a good idea to make sure to get the screw clamps with the hex heads so if I had trouble getting to it I could snake a little 1/4" drive flex extension & socket to it.

Gnarls.  :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 23, 2016, 09:06:25 PM
I've always had to retighten the screw clamps.................




I own page 6   :cheese:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 23, 2016, 09:18:33 PM
INPUT NEEDED....

When I lifted the engine from the engine bay, I used a cherry picker with a piece of chain and quick links.  The problem is that it pulls and bends the front hook very badly. 

I want to fabricate of “lift bar” so the lift is vertical to the hooks on each side of the engine.

Just for a frame of reference I laid a piece of PVC and some chain on top of the engine and marked the points of pull for the lift bar.

It will have to be strong enough to hold the weight of the engine.  I didn’t weigh it so I don’t know how much it weighs, but I’d make a wild guess between 250 and 300 lbs with the fly wheel, pressure and clutch installed?  The power steering pump, AC compressor, and starter are sitting in the engine bay, and alternator I will install after the engine is back on the motor mounts.

Since I’m now projecting that my out-of-pocket for this rebuild will be about a grand over my estimated budget, I’m now in a cost-savings mode.

Do any of you guru fabricators or any of you with design knowledge want to suggest a design of a low-cost simple lift bar I can have fabricated, or I could fabricate?

The trick will be to be able to mount the center pick up point (perhaps adjustable) so it’s somewhat balanced with the engine level.

Any help or suggestions will be appreciated.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on Jul 23, 2016, 09:55:33 PM
 Ive done four engines with this and it gets the job done. Its a must if your installing the engine and transmission as a unit.  Not sure if its what your after or not  :dunno: http://www.harborfreight.com/3-4-quarter-ton-capacity-heavy-duty-load-leveler-67441.html
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 23, 2016, 10:00:10 PM
Ive done four engines with this and it gets the job done. Its a must if your installing the engine and transmission as a unit.  Not sure if its what your after or not  :dunno: http://www.harborfreight.com/3-4-quarter-ton-capacity-heavy-duty-load-leveler-67441.html

toyodaaddict.....   :smooch:  :thumbs:

Dang!!!!  You guys are really AWESOME!!  That's exactly the kinda thing I'm thinking of!  For $30 bucks I'll get one tomorrow!  We have a new Harbor Freight in Casa Grande about 10 minutes away.

I'll stick the tranny and t-case in after I get the engine in.  It's sitting on my Harbor Freight tranny jack. :D

Gnarls.  :spin:


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 23, 2016, 10:23:32 PM
gnarly,

you have pm
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 23, 2016, 10:25:02 PM
I have one of those HF levelers......

They work great.....
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 24, 2016, 12:07:29 PM
toyodaaddict and emsvitil,

You guys ROCK!!

Thanks,

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 24, 2016, 04:02:26 PM
Gnarly4x, just took my truck for a spin with the 261C cam and it rocks! I was able to get up to 70 MPH in less than 2 miles while keeping my shifts under 4k. It has more pull over the stock cam. The true test will be after the 500 mile break in and I can go over 4k.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 24, 2016, 04:10:26 PM
Have fun with that! You'll enjoy being able to accelerate from 45-70 in 5th gear with a moderate pace 💪

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 24, 2016, 04:30:24 PM
Gnarly4x, just took my truck for a spin with the 261C cam and it rocks! I was able to get up to 70 MPH in less than 2 miles while keeping my shifts under 4k. It has more pull over the stock cam. The true test will be after the 500 mile break in and I can go over 4k.

Oh geezzzz!!!  :clap:   I'm very happy to read that!!!  :biggthumpup:  :bounce:

I've been losing some sleep over my cam selection.

So, did you just switch cams, no oversize valves on your rebuild... header???

Yes.... after 500 miles or so you should feel an increase in throttle response.

Remember to retorque/check your head.  I would recheck it after 25 to 50 miles.

Remember to retorque/check your exhaust manifold/header nuts.

I gotta get mine in and my truck on the road again!  :hammerhead:

Gnarls. :spin:




Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 24, 2016, 04:38:36 PM
Have fun with that! You'll enjoy being able to accelerate from 45-70 in 5th gear with a moderate pace 💪

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



I can hardly wait!!!   :hyper:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 24, 2016, 05:17:55 PM
Engnbldr'ds stock replacement head and stock exhaustamigold for me sadly.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 24, 2016, 07:21:20 PM
Engnbldr'ds stock replacement head and stock exhaustamigold for me sadly.

Hey Mudder,

Just in case you are interested, here's an Excel sheet showing a mock pull with torque and HP numbers and what your engine would most likely look like on an engine dyno compared to a 22RE stock cam, stock exhaust.  This is just swapping a 22RE stock cam with engnbldr 261C cam.  Notice the nice RPM range that the 261C has after 2900 RPM. The stock cam is showing more torque at the lower RPM range.  Would you agree with those numbers?

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 24, 2016, 09:23:31 PM
Thanks Garnly! I would have to agree with those numbers. Now I do have chromoly connecting rods and that does make my engine get into higher RPM's quicker so the lack of lower end doesn't bother me. The engine for sure has more pulling power as I was able to go up a 6% grade about 1.5 miles long and go from 3000-4000 and had to back off the throttle to not go over 4000 RPM's as I don't want to have any problems with this motor.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 24, 2016, 09:30:57 PM
Every morning when i get to school at WSUV, i lug it up a pretty steep grade in 3rd gear, about 1500 RPMs, at about 25 MPH..

Now, I've got a bit more done to my motor than just a 261c but it feels like I've got loads more pulling power than stock.. I'm planning on replacing plugs, cleaning my filter, and resetting my timing before going to a dyno for $30 and getting an actual dyno chart..
Anyone wanna donate to the cause? Haha

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 24, 2016, 09:36:38 PM
I will say those chromoly connecting rods are amazing. I only bought them since I plan on turboing my truck next year. WHy are you in 3rd at 25 MPH? With a tach I can safely do 30 in 2nd without even touching 4k RPM's.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 24, 2016, 09:38:00 PM
Oh, I've only got 31" tires with stock gearing lol

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 24, 2016, 09:38:59 PM
I can do 30 in 2nd too if i want to.. I'm just saying that in 3rd it's really lugging.. and I'm still pulling when i go up that hill

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Jul 24, 2016, 09:42:08 PM
Oh okay, that makes more sense. I thought you were doing it because you thought it was to high of a speed in 2nd.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 24, 2016, 09:43:33 PM
Oh heck no.. when i smoke 3.0s at lights, I'm up around 5200 when i shift

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 25, 2016, 05:06:33 AM
..... I'm planning on replacing plugs, cleaning my filter, and resetting my timing before going to a dyno for $30 and getting an actual dyno chart..  Anyone wanna donate to the cause? Haha

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk


Only $30 for a chassis dyno test??? Really?... smok'n deal!  :yesnod:

OK guys, for those of you who are curios.... let's pitch in a little help pay for excabswap's dyno test that he will share with all of us!!!!   :biggthumpup:

YES... I'll donate!   :usa:    My checkbook balance is only $15.97  :thumbdown: ... I will send you a check for $10.00!!  PM me with your mailing address.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 25, 2016, 05:11:25 AM
I can do 30 in 2nd too if i want to.. I'm just saying that in 3rd it's really lugging.. and I'm still pulling when i go up that hill

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These little engines don't like to be "lugged".... just "hugged".  :therethere:

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 25, 2016, 05:14:44 AM
..  Now, I've got a bit more done to my motor than just a 261c.....


Hey excabswap.... would you mind detailing what you have done to your engine.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 25, 2016, 08:06:59 AM
No problemo..
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2F77bd80359c5fec7ca5ee568f3d42e822.jpg&hash=507e4f75e3750c3e31379882bdf03eab)
all machine work by ENGNBLDR 2 years ago:
Bored .020 over
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2Fc52c0c663d0876f5650f283147b49472.jpg&hash=1c7bec092f99c1dd28437a78c5ad3dd3)
Full long block rebuild buy Tod (ENGNBLDR). Only original parts are the block, rods, crank and head
Stainless pistons
Chrome moly rings
Light smoothing on the head (no polish because i didn't plan on a turbo and turbulence is good here according to him. Later research on my part reinforced his recommendation)
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2Fec0ee7a28802ea5e7de97023c79f215c.jpg&hash=a6b5cef73d97e7fa2b4a1a9a016bad2e)
261c crawler cam
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2Fbc02ebdeb480ba0f045842baf9ef33fd.jpg&hash=0230e309262da42ef8da39dfd5b6029c)
Everything else in the long block is new.

Doug thorley Tri Y header
Remflex gasket (only including this because it's freaking worth it)
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2F302c5cd0a2369c80918c86a4b18b7200.jpg&hash=ed1d52b244290a7b37474e9ef1a63476)
Vs
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2F63bcbc83a3ca6fba2fddb363849f7c43.jpg&hash=0ff84764e9796da84db4e7acc0024de1)
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2F28aacd00ccd4928569bd2caf9866fbfe.jpg&hash=3123b5dd76c68727d0291f684380d38d)
Straight pipe from the header back through a flowmaster 40 and out
Super duper custom deluxe ram air intake haha..
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2Fdb47e18595a5d9bdcc41ef1b69ac06f5.jpg&hash=910461928652e742cceb76665ec9625e)
Flywheel resurfaced and gear ring flipped. Centerforce clutch. (Including this so you know about how much weight is on the flywheel for torque/hp draw... Not much haha)
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160725%2F0260944edf47eeeab939f9c0dcee16a8.jpg&hash=06d53b4337c8d5aad160b9da466fcd9e)

And that's about all i can think of.. if you think i missed anything lemme know..

Sorry for all the pics, I just like to be thorough.

Also, what size tire should i go with to the dyno? Stock size since i have sick gearing?

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 25, 2016, 08:08:29 AM
Oh yeah, I've since converted my fan to electric, and it feels like it makes a pretty significant difference. I only have to turn my fan on if I'm at a standstill for more than a few minutes

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 25, 2016, 08:17:12 AM
Oh, and to answer your question, yep only $30 for 1 chassis dyno test.. only problem is the minimum is 2 pulls haha.. don't worry too much about the donation, I've always wanted to know anyways

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 25, 2016, 09:39:01 AM
excabswap,

Cool beans! ! Love the photos!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 25, 2016, 07:26:34 PM
excabswap,

Yeah... she's purrddyyy!!  :D

Is that a Doug Thorley header?

OK, so I"m also .020" over bore with an engnbldr RV head with OS valves and 261C cam.  Block deck cleaned up at .006" smoothed.  Crank, rods, flywheel, and pressure plate have been balanced.  It's got the stock flywheel and I don't know whose clutch and pressure plate I have and I'm still debating to replace it.

Tires for your chassis dyno?..... What is your ring and pinion ratio and tranny model?  What tire sizes are you running mostly?

The tire size will affect the final drive gear ratio, so it depends on where in your RPM range you want to have your peak torque measured.

Oh, so your shop charges $30 for each pull, with a minimum of 2 pulls??

I think 2 pulls is a little shy of the norm.  My speed shop here does 5 pulls for $99.

I'm planning on having my truck on the dyno soon as I think it's broken in well and still freshly tuned.

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Jul 25, 2016, 09:59:43 PM
excabswap,

Yeah... she's purrddyyy!!  :D

Is that a Doug Thorley header?

OK, so I"m also .020" over bore with an engnbldr RV head with OS valves and 261C cam.  Block deck cleaned up at .006" smoothed.  Crank, rods, flywheel, and pressure plate have been balanced.  It's got the stock flywheel and I don't know whose clutch and pressure plate I have and I'm still debating to replace it.

Tires for your chassis dyno?..... What is your ring and pinion ratio and tranny model?  What tire sizes are you running mostly?

The tire size will affect the final drive gear ratio, so it depends on where in your RPM range you want to have your peak torque measured.

Oh, so your shop charges $30 for each pull, with a minimum of 2 pulls??

I think 2 pulls is a little shy of the norm.  My speed shop here does 5 pulls for $99.

I'm planning on having my truck on the dyno soon as I think it's broken in well and still freshly tuned.

Gnarls.  :spin:



Yessir and thanks!!
(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi9.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa88%2Fpgragg88%2F93%2520Toyota%2FDougThorleyHeaders_zpsd2cb5c8b.jpg&hash=bba63658a6165fc5fd4ef7c69fc92e95)

Also, forgot to add this for anyone reading this and wanting to know more about the 261c cam:

(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi9.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa88%2Fpgragg88%2F93%2520Toyota%2FIMG_20141009_150329_nopm__zpswcbbzy0y.jpg&hash=90ed2f61e42c28ed3e79ee8559c7f767)

As for the number of pulls, I'm not exactly sure. I know it's between $60-70 for some time on a dyno... I figure at least 2... Depending on how ragged they run my baby haha...

I'm not used to other people driving my yota... I guess I'm a bit overprotective  :stopit:

As for my diffs, still stock 4:10s. Transmission is a w56 with forward shift tcase... (gonna be fun trying to dual case this, but there's a guy at marlin who did it so there's some hope lol)

I have a set of slightly cracked rollers that are 235s I think, and my BFGs are 31s, but stocks are 225s lol...

If I were just finishing up a break-in, I'd wait until after you re-torque the head bolts to go or a dyno run.. Just my :twocents:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 29, 2016, 09:40:23 PM
I did quite a bit of research before starting this rebuild and because I'm probably too anal (along with not wanting to screw up an engine I've never rebuilt from scratch) I've been trying to gather as much information as I can from multiple sources... from those like me that may not be any kind of an expert and just kind of a DIYer with some degree of mechanical ability and desire ...  to the guys that have been building engines most of their lives... to the aftermarket product marketeers. 

Here on this site there is obviously an incredible amount of experience, skills, knowledge, and passion for Toyotas.  And, like most automotive sites I've been on, there is also some Bravo Sierra. :rofl:

Based upon my previous research and my other two trucks, and technical conversions with very reputable experts - the engine I've put together with engbldr's RV head, oversize valves, 261C camshaft, Doug Thorley header, 2.25" exhaust, cat, and turbo type muffler, I should be VERY pleased with the power, especially the torque curve.  The 261C cam profile was designed to improve throttle response in a 22R/RE 3500 lb truck in the gearing range with 4.10 R&P and 31" tires.... :burnout:

I'll know more, hopefully before the end of August (still waiting to purchase some parts), how this engine performs.  I don't expect it to blow 3 foot flames out the exhaust, but I'm expecting it to be a LOT MORE peppy than what it was before I toasted it by accidentally running it out of coolant. :smack:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 01, 2016, 09:49:03 PM
I have a question...

What is the value of the head I took off my 22RE that may be warped due me overheating the engine?  I don't know what cam is in it until I mic it to try to figure it out.  There's no markings on it the cam.  It looks good.  There are several exhaust studs that have been heli-coiled while it was in the truck. 

I have no idea how much it would cost to have it rebuilt?  I can take it to a Phoenix head shop and see what they say.  I don't know what I'd do with it, but maybe sell it or keep it as a backup head, or do some heavy duty mods to it, like port and polish??

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 01, 2016, 10:12:24 PM
You might be able to deck it then port and polish it.. them it might be worth it

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 01, 2016, 10:15:56 PM
You might be able to deck it then port and polish it.. them it might be worth it

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OK, I'll clean it up and oil it good and keep it for now and then later consider what ever comments I get.  I'll find out what condition it is in.

Thank you.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 01, 2016, 10:17:09 PM
Instead of oiling it, just put it in a garbage bag coated in WD-40

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: BoG-ToY on Aug 01, 2016, 10:49:25 PM

Full long block rebuild buy Tod (ENGNBLDR). Only original parts are the block, rods, crank and head
Stainless pistons
Chrome moly rings


Where did you get stainless piston? Did that decrease your redline? Increase engine knock issues due to reduced thermal efficiency than aluminum?

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 02, 2016, 12:12:52 AM
Where did you get stainless piston? Did that decrease your redline? Increase engine knock issues due to reduced thermal efficiency than aluminum?
That is way too advanced for me to know the answer right now. I'll head over to Tod's shop tomorrow and ask
👊😎

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 02, 2016, 06:10:07 AM
That is way too advanced for me to know the answer right now. I'll head over to Tod's shop tomorrow and ask


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I think the pistons that engbldr is selling are just hypereutectic type (aluminum alloy).  Although out of the box they look like stainless steel.  :D

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: BoG-ToY on Aug 02, 2016, 08:02:50 AM
I figure Tod put his awesome stainless steel valves in there. But never seen any stainless steel Pistons. Decades ago you may have seen some cast iron pistons.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 02, 2016, 08:32:38 AM
Mercedes introduced steel pistons a couple years ago.  I don't know if they are "stainless steel"?

http://newatlas.com/mercedes-steel-pistons/33415/

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 02, 2016, 10:16:44 AM
Oh! You know what, my bad guys.. stainless valves.. haha..
I've gotta start getting some more sleep, didn't even catch that

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 02, 2016, 12:36:58 PM
Oh! You know what, my bad guys.. stainless valves.. haha..
I've gotta start getting some more sleep, didn't even catch that

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I knew what you meant.  :gap:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 05, 2016, 07:09:02 AM
UPDATE:  August 8, 2016

Rebuilding a 1986 XtraCab 22RE with unknown actual mileage, but judging from the incredibly overall good condition of this California truck when I bought it in 2006 from a second owner, the odometer mileage *could be* accurate and this engine could be 30 years old.  It now reads 133,814.

For those who may not be expert engine builders or just curious….. Thoughts and things I’ve learned about my rebuild so far, in no specific order.

I started this rebuild with specific target design goals and planned on not having to rebuild this engine in my life time.

** Do It Yourself vs ?? - I’m very happy I decided to do it myself.  I visited two engine rebuilders, and spoke to 4 engine machine shops.  I realize now that there is no way the rebuild shops would have done the job correctly, to my standard. They most likely would not have taken the time to replace defective parts, like the 3 parts that were rusted through. One that I had fabricate a replacement.

**Inspection Prior to Purchase – I should have spent more time inspecting ALL the parts on the engine to determine what needs to be replaced and what can be reused.

**Buying a Long Block or Short Block – After many hours of research on multiple Toyota parts sources and reviews that were posted, reading lots of posts on 3 or 4 Toyota forums, the risk of buying a bad long block was not worth it.  Buying a very expensive long block from more reputable sources was beyond my budget.

** New vs Rebuilt head – A local head shop quoted $410 for a bolt-on rebuilt head with good used parts, including a cam.  Engbldr’s new 22 head with 261C cam and their over-size valves installed was $550.  The choice for me was a no-brainer.

**  Final cost - I underestimated the cost. – should have added another $1,000 to my rebuild kitty before I started.

**  Machine shop turnaround - I under estimated the run-around time and number or trips to the machine shop. It was about 3 weeks from drop off to pick up of my engine block, crank, rods, timing cover, and pistons.

**  Blue printing – I should have spent MORE time thinking through what modifications are worth (cost and time) to increase power (torque), like boring the block to .060” instead of just .020” to clean it up, cam profile, header & exhaust, over-sized valves, balancing, etc.

**  Machine Shop - Choosing the best machine shop for the job is really important.  I spent and extra $75 to have the machine shop check and prep the block with main bearings, rod bearings, rod bushings to tolerance specs.  I didn’t want to plasti-gauge. I did mic everything to verify they were within factory spec.

**  Block plugs and locating dowels - I should have removed all 4 block plugs before dropping off the block at the machine shop, and ordered new hex plugs.  I should have removed the two head locating dowels on the block deck.

**  Block and head prep - Decking the block beyond about .010” in combination with resurfacing the head will cause issues with cam timing, heat, and compression ratio.  Research this issue extremely well.  Tod at engbldr was incredibly helpful in sharing his expertise and recommendations.

** Cleaning, prep & painting – I’m glad I cleaned the heck out of everything.  I used paint thinner and acetone.  I took the time to paint almost every part that needed paint.  I should have picked a lighter color for the block.

** Photos & Parts storage -  I should have taken more photos and videos before, during, and after disassembly and removing the engine, to have a better record of where parts, nuts & bolts are located (my pornographic memory is not as sharp as it was at 42 years of age!).  I labeled with masking tape little paper and plastic cups all the nuts & bolts as I remove them.  That was BIG help when it came time to start putting parts back together.  When in doubt I measured the depth of each bolt hole with a little screwdriver and piece of cloth hanger to make sure the bolt was the right length.

** Doug Thorley vs LCE Headers? – there seems to be lots of opinions on this.  I have gone back and forth on which one to buy this time.  I’m now leaning back towards the DT header. I believe the tri-y design is better for my cam and OS valves and my target RPM for increased torque. The tri-y design supposedly is better for low to mid range torque and scavenging exhaust gases quicker.  I would love to see the results of these two headers attached to 2.25” exhaust, cat, and turbo type muffler, tested on a stock 22 on a SuperFlo 902 engine dyno!!

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 05, 2016, 08:23:42 AM
If i could do it again, i also would have had Tod go to .060 instead of .020 for a bit more cc..
Only other thing i wish i had gotten was LCE's oil scraper..

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 05, 2016, 10:00:25 AM
So i called a more reputable shop-English racing- and they said it's $150/hr. With a 1hr minimum.. they said I'll probably get about 3 pulls if everything goes smoothly.. another shop-fast specialties- said it'd be about $150 after tax for 2-3 pulls baseline dyno..

So.. yeah, anyone wanna pitch in $10? Hahaha...

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 05, 2016, 11:11:01 AM
If i could do it again, i also would have had Tod go to .060 instead of .020 for a bit more cc..
Only other thing i wish i had gotten was LCE's oil scraper..

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I did more research on going to .060" over bore instead of only needing to go .020" over.   I confirmed that I might gain 2 to 4 HP and some torque that was inidicated by my dyno software, BUT -  the trade off is the block cannot be bored again without major modifications and cost.  The cost of .060" over pistons is a little more $$.

So... it's not really recommended unless necessary to clean the bore.  It is a judgment call. 

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 05, 2016, 01:34:40 PM
UPDATE:  August 8, 2016

................


What stocks should I buy Monday morning to get a HUGE profit by the end of the day ? ? ? ?

 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 05, 2016, 01:41:11 PM
Haha same

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 05, 2016, 03:25:13 PM

What stocks should I buy Monday morning to get a HUGE profit by the end of the day ? ? ? ?

 

engbldr stocks????  :ha_ha:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 05, 2016, 04:44:39 PM
So i called a more reputable shop-English racing- and they said it's $150/hr. With a 1hr minimum.. they said I'll probably get about 3 pulls if everything goes smoothly.. another shop-fast specialties- said it'd be about $150 after tax for 2-3 pulls baseline dyno..

So.. yeah, anyone wanna pitch in $10? Hahaha...

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I'm in for $10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :gap:

If you can, I would really like to know what chassis dyno they have?

My wild-arse prediction is that you will see between 78 and 97 HP at the rear wheels???? :dunno:

Maybe 100 lbs of peak torque at around 3200 RPM???

But hoping for a tad more...

Ask if they report or adjust for ambient air temperature, relative humidity, and elevation?

Gnarls.  :clap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: BoG-ToY on Aug 05, 2016, 05:34:55 PM
I have a certificate in auto machine from a college that had student from across the country sent to this machine shop to learn auto machine.... Standard overbore should be kept to a minimum.
When you jump straight to .060 over on your first bore you risk that block being junk shortly after. Just got back from the junkyard where a fresh rebuilt engine was out there due to an injector failing. Was still repairable but the whole car was junked due to the secondary damage to turbo and head. As stated "going .060 might gain you 4hp but it can also weeken cylinder walls. The 3.0 Toyota is already thin enough to fail without being bored over. We did one .040 over and ended up finding a pinhole into the water jacket. A ring could crack, or who knows. On a side note...  A steel piston on a diesel makes sense as they see abuse (the story above with leaky injector was a TDI, piston was torch cut and deposited throughout the rest of the engine) but they also see much lower RPMs normally. 3800 is high
RPM for many diesels 4500-5000 is screaming
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 05, 2016, 05:38:55 PM
Right on, I'll ask.. and bog toy, that's some good info.. although i remember Tod saying that he's bored up to .080 for one-off engines used for one race lol.. but those are strokers, and screamers

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 05, 2016, 05:55:39 PM
I have a certificate in auto machine from a college that had student from across the country sent to this machine shop to learn auto machine.... Standard overbore should be kept to a minimum.
When you jump straight to .060 over on your first bore you risk that block being junk shortly after. Just got back from the junkyard where a fresh rebuilt engine was out there due to an injector failing. Was still repairable but the whole car was junked due to the secondary damage to turbo and head. As stated "going .060 might gain you 4hp but it can also weeken cylinder walls. The 3.0 Toyota is already thin enough to fail without being bored over. We did one .040 over and ended up finding a pinhole into the water jacket. A ring could crack, or who knows. On a side note...  A steel piston on a diesel makes sense as they see abuse (the story above with leaky injector was a TDI, piston was torch cut and deposited throughout the rest of the engine) but they also see much lower RPMs normally. 3800 is high
RPM for many diesels 4500-5000 is screaming

Yes, the recommendations are to only bore to what is necessary. 

I believe 79coyotefrg has a 22R that he built about 14 years ago, and it's .060" over bore, and from what he has posted it's a cats-a$$-scream'n-machine!!  :dancing:

It would be interesting to find out what the life is, or reliability of, a 22 that is bored over .020"?

I don't have a certificate in anything automotive... but I DO have a certificate in Dog Psychology! :greengrin:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: BoG-ToY on Aug 05, 2016, 06:19:32 PM
For sure. And that one race win,lose, or blow it up, the result is the result. Can't take it back. For most of us a second or third chance on a rebuild isn't a horrible thing and the difference in power isn't enough to justify for a daily driver.
I would do it if I had to have the power and didn't care if I could rebuild it again.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Aug 05, 2016, 10:55:43 PM
Couple of things, do not bore an engine to .060 over unless you have to. Unless you like buying old blocks when it's time to rebuild, or if you're like me you get to spend almost 2k at LCE for their short block kit because no one where you live can machine in a timely manner (7-8 weeks just for a head decked). Secondly, it is completely okay to just use plastigage to check clearances. It is what the FSM tells you to do. You aren't building a hot rod motor that's putting out high horsepower!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 06, 2016, 01:13:15 AM

I did more research on going to .060" over bore instead of only needing to go .020" over.   I confirmed that I might gain 2 to 4 HP and some torque that was inidicated by my dyno software, BUT -  the trade off is the block cannot be bored again without major modifications and cost.  The cost of .060" over pistons is a little more $$.

So... it's not really recommended unless necessary to clean the bore.  It is a judgment call. 

Gnarls.

they can "CAN" be bored to .080 LC sells the pistons but when those rings go you can probably just rering but when those miles are up its a boat anchor OR have sleeves pressed in.  :bling:
I wont do another over .040
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 06, 2016, 03:50:36 AM
Couple of things, do not bore an engine to .060 over unless you have to. Unless you like buying old blocks when it's time to rebuild, or if you're like me you get to spend almost 2k at LCE for their short block kit because no one where you live can machine in a timely manner (7-8 weeks just for a head decked). Secondly, it is completely okay to just use plastigage to check clearances. It is what the FSM tells you to do. You aren't building a hot rod motor that's putting out high horsepower!

Hey Mudder,

Yeah... I think the consensus is.....don't bore a 22 block any more than you have to.  However, if you are blue printing an engine and are looking for incremental gains in power, over boring a 22 block to .060" would be a consideration.

On using Plastigauge... I had the machine shop mic all the tolerances because they had all my parts, they've been building race engines for 30 years, I didn't want to take the time to do it, I was anxious to get my block and parts back home, the last time I plastigauged an engine build was on a 455 Olds for my 1968 Chevy toy-hauler.  As far as bearing tolerances and properly mic'ing an engine build, it doesn't matter if it's on 22 or a $250,000 NASCAR engine, you'd better measure it correctly, and if the specs are in 10's of thousands of an inch.... correctly means not much room for error.

I'm a philologist :smokin:  - not an engine builder. :D

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: BoG-ToY on Aug 06, 2016, 08:43:07 AM
And I've seen people mic out parts wrong. Most people do not use inside micrometers, they use dial bore gauges that are set to your desired size with a setting fixture or outside micrometer. Lots of room for human error.
Honestly the final measure of how all the parts combined fit together is probably a better way of measuring.
I worked at a performance machine shop that was the big name shop where I lived, you would not believe the crap that went on in there. I finally quit because I was taught to have more pride in my work. Now, the most expensive build I saw was $20k for removing rebuilding and reinstall of a pair of 350 Chevy engines in a cabin cruiser. They ran Keith black Pistons and stroked cranks with all sorts of other stuff. I was a machinist not assembly. I did not get to touch the Pistons, I was handed a spec sheet on what size to finish hone to. 3/4 of our builds saw torque plates when boring and honing.
Moral of this, pasti gauge make a great final check that everything was done right.
Don't alway just trust the name over the door, don't always trust what was told to you by the owner.
We had a rare block come through, it was rough, but had the owner of the shop not screwed up I think it would have been repairable. He downright load to the customer and told him it did not clean up when in reality it was the machine shop the screwed it up. Once again I left for good reason.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 07, 2016, 06:05:51 AM
Hey excabswap,

If you have not already tested your truck on a dyno....

I may be asking a lot, but if at all possible, the following data would be very very helpful for me...

Immediately before testing record the following:

 - outside ambient air temperature
 - inside ambient air temperature in the dyno operating enviroment
 - relative humidity
 - barometric pressure
- your elevation
 - tire manufacturer
 - tire model
-  tire mileage
-  tire pressure
-  tire size
-  rim size

Chassis:
- Weight of truck if you have had it weighed (with you in the truck (your body weight) and how many gallons of fuel was in the tank)
- What gears were used during testing
- engine operating temperature
- how many pulls

 Chassis Dyno
- manufacturer, type, model
- Casually ask the dyno operator how long he/she has been operating that dyno.
 - Please record the day and time they test it.

Engine:
- last time/mileage the engine was tuned (cap, rotor, spark plugs, ignition timing, valve lash adjust, etc)
- specs (cam, bore, carb/injection, deck height, head, header, exhaust etc)
- length of time or miles on rebuild
- oil viscosity in crankcase
- gasoline octane rating

Thanks,

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 10, 2016, 02:12:35 PM
Question:

While pulling the engine, I had to cut one of the water tubes attached to the underside other plenum. It's molded with curves. I can splice it with copper tubing and hose clamps, but I'd rather replace it.  Toyota dealer says some of those hoses have been discontinued. I will have to visit my dealership to find out.

Have any of you guys used aftermarket straight tubing? My concern is that the straight rubber tubing will kink trying to make the bends?

Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 10, 2016, 02:14:17 PM
We have 90* couplings at oreillys

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 10, 2016, 02:15:22 PM
Question:

While pulling the engine, I had to cut one of the water tubes attached to the underside other plenum. It's molded with curves. I can splice it with copper tubing and hose clamps, but I'd rather replace it.  Toyota dealer says some of those hoses have been discontinued. I will have to visit my dealership to find out.

Have any of you guys used aftermarket straight tubing? My concern is that the straight rubber tubing will kink trying to make the bends?

Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.



I would call 22re Performance.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 10, 2016, 02:55:39 PM
I would call 22re Performance.

Yes... I think they have them!!

Cool!!!

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 10, 2016, 05:29:18 PM
I've used plumber copper elbows and the brass pex elbows for coolant hose bends................
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 10, 2016, 05:32:54 PM
I've used plumber copper elbows and the brass pex elbows for coolant hose bends................

That will work!  :thumbs:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 10, 2016, 05:34:51 PM
My power steering gear box is leaking.  Has anyone had success with a repair?  Or should I bite the bullet and buy one???  :shudder:  My engine rebuild piggy bank is almost empty.... I'm digging into both couches for any lost change!!  :idea:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Aug 10, 2016, 07:13:34 PM
The hoses you speak of are still available
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Aug 10, 2016, 09:56:28 PM
Gnarly, are you talking about the metal tube that goes along the engine or the rubber flex hose? if the rubber flex hose I used straight hose with no problems in place of the molded one because I didn't have the money to replace it it with a molded one.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 11, 2016, 12:11:22 PM
Gnarly, are you talking about the metal tube that goes along the engine or the rubber flex hose? if the rubber flex hose I used straight hose with no problems in place of the molded one because I didn't have the money to replace it it with a molded one.

Hey Mudder,

I had to replace the rusty old metal pipe.

The one I need I think 22RE Performance as it.

I've attached some photos.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 11, 2016, 02:40:39 PM
My power steering gear box is leaking.  Has anyone had success with a repair?  Or should I bite the bullet and buy one???  :shudder:  My engine rebuild piggy bank is almost empty.... I'm digging into both couches for any lost change!!  :idea:

Gnarls. :spin:

I thought they were supposed to leak.

Helipilot rebuilt one on his thread.  I would consider doing that or just trying to pull one from a wreck that doesn't leak yet.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 11, 2016, 02:42:18 PM
I bought a power steering gearbox rebuild kit from Toyota for less than $100.. Congress with all the seals and gaskets

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 11, 2016, 07:49:48 PM
I thought they were supposed to leak.

....

I would bet this steering gear box is 30 years old. :gap:

Geezzz.... I hate leaks!!!   Leaks are torture, like water-boarding!! :yikes:

OK, I'll check out a rebuild kit.

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 16, 2016, 09:55:30 AM
In my quest to look at eeking out little bits of 22RE "power", has anyone installed a Flex fan or the Electric fan kit for a pickup?

http://www.lceperformance.com/Electric-Fans-s/1381.htm

Do you like it?

Is it worth the cost?

Did you notice any difference in your butt dyno?

Any comments will be appreciated.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 16, 2016, 11:32:05 AM
My butt dyno convinces me it's worth it to the point that every 22re owner i meet, I'm basically being them to buy a $20 fan from the junkyard and do the conversion.

I'm in-between permanent wiring solutions on it due to lack of time, so i have to hook mine up manually, however, I've only had to connect the fan about 4 times this year. 3 times for wheeling, and once when I was stuck in Portland traffic crossing the i5 bridge.
I have a $30 fan controller hooked up to it, and works great.

It's not ideal, connecting it manually, but there seems to be better response, and quieter cold starts because the engine isn't turning the fan.

Do it. I got my high speed fan from an 04 Honda civic. Best fan would be from a pt cruiser. $0.02

👊😎

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 16, 2016, 12:12:54 PM
My butt dyno convinces me it's worth it to the point that every 22re owner i meet, I'm basically being them to buy a $20 fan from the junkyard and do the conversion.

I'm in-between permanent wiring solutions on it due to lack of time, so i have to hook mine up manually, however, I've only had to connect the fan about 4 times this year. 3 times for wheeling, and once when I was stuck in Portland traffic crossing the i5 bridge.
I have a $30 fan controller hooked up to it, and works great.

It's not ideal, connecting it manually, but there seems to be better response, and quieter cold starts because the engine isn't turning the fan.

Do it. I got my high speed fan from an 04 Honda civic. Best fan would be from a pt cruiser. $0.02

👊😎

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Hey excabswap,

OK, I'll check this out.  I have boneyards in Phoenix. I'll find out which one would have an electric fan?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 16, 2016, 03:52:25 PM
Buying a kit isn't worth it..............

But I use an electric fan......

 :yupyup:



Much cheaper to mix and match the parts and make your own 'kit'.


The only thing I've ever noticed was the idle drop when the fan kicks on.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 16, 2016, 03:54:11 PM
Buying a kit isn't worth it..............

But I use an electric fan......

 :yupyup:



Much cheaper to mix and match the parts and make your own 'kit'.


The only thing I've ever noticed was the idle drop when the fan kicks on.   :dunno:
I agree. Don't get a kit. Just find a 2 wire fan, and a temperature relay controller for worry free operation.

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 16, 2016, 05:43:50 PM
I did some very quick research...

The LCE fan kit specs the fan at 1585 CFM.

If the PT Cruiser is a good choice, the last year production was 2005. If I find 2005 in a boneyard, the fan will be 11 to 12 years old.  Is that a good idea?  Or should I look for a 1600 CFM fan that is from a newer vehicle?

Is this the kind of controller I will need?

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/10560/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710639487&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-60736883591:pla-171299431271&catargetid=230006180003464298&cadevice=c&gclid=CObmn9Gcx84CFQaQaQodiNkLYg


Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 16, 2016, 06:31:40 PM
I used a summit generic fan.

Biggest that would fit   (I'm thinking 16")


On slantsix.org,  various people say they get better cooling with multiple smaller fans rather than one large one (more radiator coverage probably) 

 :dunno:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 17, 2016, 07:17:12 AM
I did some very quick research...

The LCE fan kit specs the fan at 1585 CFM.

If the PT Cruiser is a good choice, the last year production was 2005. If I find 2005 in a boneyard, the fan will be 11 to 12 years old.  Is that a good idea?  Or should I look for a 1600 CFM fan that is from a newer vehicle?

Is this the kind of controller I will need?

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/10560/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710639487&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-60736883591:pla-171299431271&catargetid=230006180003464298&cadevice=c&gclid=CObmn9Gcx84CFQaQaQodiNkLYg


Thanks,

Gnarls.

If you find something that works, get two.  Then the first one will last forever because you have a spare.  That's the way it works :).

For what it's worth, I tried an electric fan on my 3RZ and eventually swapped it back to a stock setup.  There was no perceivable difference in power for me. This is the 3RZ with 40 extra HP, so you may certainly find it worth your while on a 22re.

I found I didn't like the extra wiring and it wasn't that dependable.  Ended up fiddling with it on the side of the road a few times.  It just gave me one more thing that could kill my engine if it failed in the woods at low speed.

On the flip side it was cool to shut of the fan in creek crossings.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 17, 2016, 09:40:57 AM
....  There was no perceivable difference in power ...I found I didn't like the extra wiring and it wasn't that dependable.  Ended up fiddling with it on the side of the road a few times.  It just gave me one more thing that could kill my engine if it failed in the woods at low speed.


Well, the issue of reliability is worrisome.  If the electric fan quits working how long before you realize it and the coolant temp goes up too high?

There's another "power" issue.  The fan motors take power, which loads the alternator, which takes torque to spin.

Just looking at cost to decrease parasitic load, it may not be as cost effective.  A bigger throttle body may be better?

And, yes it would be very handy to turn of the fan when crossing some deep water I have done in the past! :yikes:

Thanks for the feedback, that's the real world info I need.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 17, 2016, 10:43:33 AM
Well I'll tell you how it was for me. When I was moving down the road at any kind of speed at all I didn't even need to run the fan.  If I was under maybe 25 mph, then I could tell if the fan was on or off. Low speed or crawling you absolutely had to have the fan on.

If you rig it up right it's probably not too bad.  I just didn't have a great time with it.

I understand about the load on the alt but I doubt you would notice the load.  If anything I would guess it would be a wash.  I know some guys just love this mod though.  I think it's one of those small changes that when stacked with a bunch of other changes probably helps the 100 hp motor get a little elbow room. 

I have just kind of gone for stupid-proof dependability and I find the stock setup more simple.  I also ran the stock manifold, heaviest crank I could find, old style rods, dual timing chain and steel rockers though, so you'll have to take my feelings with a grain of salt :).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 17, 2016, 11:49:55 PM
I did some very quick research...

The LCE fan kit specs the fan at 1585 CFM.

If the PT Cruiser is a good choice, the last year production was 2005. If I find 2005 in a boneyard, the fan will be 11 to 12 years old.  Is that a good idea?  Or should I look for a 1600 CFM fan that is from a newer vehicle?

Is this the kind of controller I will need?

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/10560/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710639487&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-60736883591:pla-171299431271&catargetid=230006180003464298&cadevice=c&gclid=CObmn9Gcx84CFQaQaQodiNkLYg


Thanks,

Gnarls.

Here's what I've got:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MRY0/35879/01388.oap?year=1993&make=Toyota&model=Pickup&vi=1278008&ck=Search_01388_1278008_-1&pt=01388&ppt=C0331

I like it because I have it stabbed through my radiator right at the top where the coolant below the hose connection.
There's a small dashpot on it that you have to setup manually, but it's really simple and easy to do. Just get everything installed, and start up your motor cold. You could use a temp gun, but I just looked at my stock temp gauge. Once the motor was warmed up, I slowly turned the dashpot until the relay turned the fan on, and left it there. The fan stays off until the temp rises.

Another reason this is nice is because there's another input for your A/C compressor. I'm planning on connecting it to my 4x4 sensor so that whenever I'm in 4wd, the fan is forced on. I've never heard of anyone doing this before, but if anyone knows a reason not to connect it to the 4x4 light, lemme know.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 17, 2016, 11:51:57 PM
Here's a few options. Not sure what the difference is, but I'd get a controller with a probe instead of the one you found on jegs because then you don't have to get rid of your stock sensor, or figure out how to plumb in another sensor..
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Cooling+Fan+Controller/01388/C0331.oap?year=1993&make=Toyota&model=Pickup&vi=1278008
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 17, 2016, 11:57:37 PM
Here's a few options. Not sure what the difference is, but I'd get a controller with a probe instead of the one you found on jegs because then you don't have to get rid of your stock sensor, or figure out how to plumb in another sensor..
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Cooling+Fan+Controller/01388/C0331.oap?year=1993&make=Toyota&model=Pickup&vi=1278008

I use the $17.99 one...........  got it from JC Whitney years and years ago.......
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 18, 2016, 04:06:09 AM
Here's what I've got:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MRY0/35879/01388.oap?year=1993&make=Toyota&model=Pickup&vi=1278008&ck=Search_01388_1278008_-1&pt=01388&ppt=C0331

I like it because I have it stabbed through my radiator right at the top where the coolant below the hose connection.
There's a small dashpot on it that you have to setup manually, but it's really simple and easy to do. Just get everything installed, and start up your motor cold. You could use a temp gun, but I just looked at my stock temp gauge. Once the motor was warmed up, I slowly turned the dashpot until the relay turned the fan on, and left it there. The fan stays off until the temp rises.

Another reason this is nice is because there's another input for your A/C compressor. I'm planning on connecting it to my 4x4 sensor so that whenever I'm in 4wd, the fan is forced on. I've never heard of anyone doing this before, but if anyone knows a reason not to connect it to the 4x4 light, lemme know.

Hey excabswap,

I see why you like it.  The $99 price would ding my Toy piggy bank as I add up the cost/benefit number.

Hooking the fan to your 4-wheel drive light... as H8PVMNH has pointed out, being able to turn off the fan if you are doing a deep water crossing would be handy.  Here in AZ I have crossed water at least a dozen times and once when my '86 Long Bed actually started to float!!... talk about major anal pucker!  :yikes:

If I go with an electric fan set up, and since we are discussing this modification, and because I toasted my engine by running out of coolant, I'm going to look into a warning buzzer to alert me when the engine temperature goes above 2XX or so.  In all my trucks, I always installed AutoMeter mechanical oil pressure, mechanical water temp gauge, and a ammeter.... but if I'm NOT looking at them....??  :headshake:

I haven't installed any aftermarket gauges yet in this truck because I wanted to keep the truck as original as possible, but I'm considering it.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 18, 2016, 02:05:13 PM
UPDATE:  August 18, 2016:  Transmission input shaft

Today I started to work on my tanny/t-case and discovered another issue.  The tip of the input shaft is worn.  I mic’d it at .475” at the base and where the worn area is it’s .466” or about .011” wear.

Obviously the pilot bearing at some point in time (prior to my ownership) froze up and wore a groove in the tip of the shaft.

Sooo.. I should replace the input shaft… more work, more delay, more bite out of my “now-gone-negative-rebuild-budget”.  :headshake:

Hey Tay85Runner  how much do you want for that input shaft that you didn’t order?  :D

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 18, 2016, 02:12:29 PM
I've heard of using JB weld to fix the input shaft...........

Or goto a hobby shop and get some .475 OD brass tubing and turn down the shaft to accept the tubing.......
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 18, 2016, 02:19:42 PM
It's a metric bearing, so it's ID is 12mm

or

.472441"

so you need 12mm tubing   (15/32 is .46875)



BTW,   I've had brass radiators crack too.    But it's always been on a solder seem which is easy to fix.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 18, 2016, 03:10:40 PM
I'd probably weld it in the worn area and file it down to match the remaining, unworn high spots.  Should be able to get pretty close with a nice flat file.  Then test fit inn a loose pilot bearing until your satisfied with the fit.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 18, 2016, 05:03:21 PM
Thank you guys for your input.

Well, I'm going to use some liquid steel and see if I can fill in the groove and sand it down smooth.

I don't have the budget right now to replace the input shaft.  The tranny has to come apart to replace the input shaft.  A complete rebuild would be about $800.  :ack:

Fortunately, the tip of the shaft that inserts inside the pilot bearing doesn't get much force and the pilot bearing doesn't spin that much... only when the clutch is disengaged from the pressure plate.

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 20, 2016, 01:17:16 AM
:welcome: to page 9



If i could do it again, i also would have had Tod go to .060 instead of .020 for a bit more cc..

:slap:

Quote
Only other thing i wish i had gotten was LCE's oil scraper..

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
thought about using or making one myself
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 20, 2016, 01:19:10 AM
Gnarly4x, just took my truck for a spin with the 261C cam and it rocks! I was able to get up to 70 MPH in less than 2 miles while keeping my shifts under 4k. It has more pull over the stock cam. The true test will be after the 500 mile break in and I can go over 4k.
:smack:  :yawn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck

 :driving:

0-60 in about 10-11 seconds
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 20, 2016, 01:52:02 AM
I did some very quick research...

The LCE fan kit specs the fan at 1585 CFM.

If the PT Cruiser is a good choice, the last year production was 2005. If I find 2005 in a boneyard, the fan will be 11 to 12 years old.  Is that a good idea?  Or should I look for a 1600 CFM fan that is from a newer vehicle?

Is this the kind of controller I will need?

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/10560/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710639487&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=aud-60736883591:pla-171299431271&catargetid=230006180003464298&cadevice=c&gclid=CObmn9Gcx84CFQaQaQodiNkLYg


Thanks,

Gnarls.
go to an auto parts store and get a replacement ptcruiser fan    :dunno:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 20, 2016, 01:53:25 AM
Thank you guys for your input.

Well, I'm going to use some liquid steel and see if I can fill in the groove and sand it down smooth.

I don't have the budget right now to replace the input shaft.  The tranny has to come apart to replace the input shaft.  A complete rebuild would be about $800.  :ack:

Fortunately, the tip of the shaft that inserts inside the pilot bearing doesn't get much force and the pilot bearing doesn't spin that much... only when the clutch is disengaged from the pressure plate.

Gnarls. :spin:



I have always only used the clutch to get in gear.  when at a light i take it out of gear unless its a fast light
using the same Marlin 1200 clutch since 2002
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 20, 2016, 02:11:57 AM
Shouldn't spin at all.....

It's in the bearing inner race.

That was caused by a bad pilot bearing  (it was spinning in the inner race)


It will have a small amount of in/out movement,  which is why I like the brass tubing idea.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 20, 2016, 02:25:17 AM
Shouldn't spin at all.....

It's in the bearing inner race.

That was caused by a bad pilot bearing  (it was spinning in the inner race)


It will have a small amount of in/out movement,  which is why I like the brass tubing idea.

true, the BEARING should be spinning. not the tip.  what transmission do you have gnarly??
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 20, 2016, 04:17:38 AM
... what transmission do you have gnarly??

W56B 5-speed

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 20, 2016, 04:22:30 AM
... It will have a small amount of in/out movement,  which is why I like the brass tubing idea.

Judging from the shape of worn groove on the tip of the input shaft, it does look like there is movement of the shaft in the inner pilot bearing race.  That is why it's very important to check the new pilot bearing before installing it into the crankshaft to make sure is slides easily onto the tip of the pilot bearing.

I would like to know how far the pilot bearing can be pressed into the end of the crankshaft.  When I replaced the last pilot bearing in my '85 I pressed it flush with the end of the crank.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 20, 2016, 04:37:57 AM
go to an auto parts store and get a replacement ptcruiser fan    :dunno:

LOL!!!!! YES..... good idea!!  I didn't even think about them being available from the parts store!!  :smack: ::)

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 20, 2016, 12:28:31 PM
Question: Header

I did some search on headers and some threads and went back quite a few years.

I don't want to beat up the topic, but I am about to buy a new header for this rebuild project.
I'm on the fence and been back and forth about my choice.

I would really like to try the LCE 4-in-1 header.
BUT... it seems the general concensus is the DT Tri-Y is better for low to mid-range power and has better exhaust scavanging.

My 22R and my last 22RE both had DT headers.

I've read very nice reviews for the LCE header on a 22R and 22RE engine.  I've also read nice reviews on the DT performance, but some issues with quality.

I'm interested in feedback on experiences, exhaust pipe size, and cats & mufflers - with either header and especially on the 22RE engine.

With this rebuild I'm looking for torque between 2800 and 3400 RPM, where I'll be mostly at freeway speeds.

Thank you.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 20, 2016, 12:40:47 PM
I've got the DT Tri Y and love it. Tod told me that 4:1 headers are more for people hitting the rev limiter, and with that, Tod's 271 cam.

:twocents:

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 20, 2016, 12:43:53 PM
LOL!!!!! YES..... good idea!!  I didn't even think about them being available from the parts store!!  :smack: ::)

Gnarls. :inthedark:
I'd you're gonna buy a new one from a parts store, just get a universal Murray fan. That stock replacement fan is gonna be kinda spendy depending on the store..

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 20, 2016, 01:40:06 PM
Look at the collectors....

Last time I looked, the CA legal LCE collector looked like it flowed like crap....
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 20, 2016, 04:30:06 PM
Look at the collectors....

Last time I looked, the CA legal LCE collector looked like it flowed like crap....

My gut says stay with the DT header for this engine, but I'm curious about the LCE header.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 20, 2016, 05:04:42 PM
It's interesting to me, and also somewhat disappointing, that ALL these years I've never seen a certified dyno test on DT tri-y vs. LCE 4-in-1 headers, which are arguably the 2 most popular choices for the 22R and 22RE engine modifications.   :driving:

Perhaps there's one out there, I just have NOT found it in any of my searches.  :dunno:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Aug 20, 2016, 05:22:32 PM
gnarls, I noticed on lc engineering's site they claim to have the best engineered header for 22r/re. maybe an email or call to them, to see if they have any proof to back up there claim
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 20, 2016, 05:32:04 PM
gnarls, I noticed on lc engineering's site they claim to have the best engineered header for 22r/re. maybe an email or call to them, to see if they have any proof to back up there claim

Yeah... I've talked to those guys a number of times, and recently about their header. I think I would have better odds winning the Powerball than getting them to show me their dyno tests on their header!..... Even if I signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement!

BUT.... I could ask them.

Here's the thing.... if a product is touted as better or best, it makes sense to me that if their dyno tests would prove that, say tested against Doug Thorley Tri-Y, then why not publish it??

It's the same with K&N air filters, they make claims, but I have never seen any certified testing or comparisons??

I've spent a better part of 35 years in Business Development, Sales, Marketing, and Advertising, in a variety of industries, so I think I understand how it works.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Prismo on Aug 20, 2016, 05:39:35 PM
I have had a Northwest Offroad header for almost 20 years, it has been a good product for me but I have no idea if it has ever been tested for performance.
http://www.northwestoffroad.com/parts/20-22header.php
I have the 261 cam, hi flow cat, turbo muffler & 2.5" pipe.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 20, 2016, 05:52:11 PM
Well,   I looked at LCE's header pictures again.

They may have fixed the crappy legal collector.

When they first changed to the 2 bolt flange,   the legal collectors looked like crap.


Would really like a merge collector there.........
 :yupyup:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 20, 2016, 05:59:19 PM
Well,   I looked at LCE's header pictures again.

They may have fixed the crappy legal collector.

When they first changed to the 2 bolt flange,   the legal collectors looked like crap.


Would really like a merge collector there.........
 :yupyup:

2 bolt collector flange!!!! YUUUUKKKKK!! NO BUENO!!

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 20, 2016, 08:58:15 PM
2 bolt collector flange!!!! YUUUUKKKKK!! NO BUENO!!

Gnarls.





I have one on my bench and it comes with a short piece to weld your 2 1/4 pipe to, the inside diameter of the collector is 2.125.    I personally feel that any exhaust under a truck thats going to be on the trail needs a swivel behind the header collector.  I loved my old long tube LC but it was in bad shape.  you could almost poke a finger through the side it was so thin from rust :rivers:


(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi220.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd137%2F79coyotefrg%2FToyota%2520knowledge%2F20160820_2315411_zpsjyoujebh.jpg&hash=b4f9a4383b7ed4f473c59116d357eb6b)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 20, 2016, 10:00:22 PM
Which LCE header is that?

1 1/2 or 1 5/8  ?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: kneedownnate on Aug 20, 2016, 10:05:20 PM
Look at the collectors....

Last time I looked, the CA legal LCE collector looked like it flowed like crap....

I thought the same and was in the process of texting back and forth with a tech guy from lce to ask why the collector was very small on my lce header I got from a board member.  He couldn't provide and answer and just kept asking what setup I was going to run and why and was dodging the answer.  I then texted my brother, who builds headers and exhaust for the toyota mr2, and he quite simply said each exhaust pulse goes through the collector at a different time, so size didn't matter as long as it wasn't smaller than the tubing diameter of each cylinders' pipe.  Texted the lce guy back and said nevermind, my brother explained it was due to this reason and the lce guy agreed and tried to make it sound like he said it.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 20, 2016, 10:49:41 PM
Which LCE header is that?

1 1/2 or 1 5/8  ?

1 1/2
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 20, 2016, 10:51:30 PM
HEY i just found my WD40 spray bottle  :screwy:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 21, 2016, 04:55:31 AM
I have had a Northwest Offroad header for almost 20 years, it has been a good product for me but I have no idea if it has ever been tested for performance.
http://www.northwestoffroad.com/parts/20-22header.php
I have the 261 cam, hi flow cat, turbo muffler & 2.5" pipe.

Hey Pismo,

Can you share your engine specs/mods?  What cat & muffler?  Why did you go to 2.5" exhaust pipe?  What pipe diameter is the collector at the flange, and what pipe diameter did you go from the collector?  Is your piping mandrel or crimp bent?

Thanks,

Gnarls.



I have had a Northwest Offroad header for almost 20 years, it has been a good product for me but I have no idea if it has ever been tested for performance.
http://www.northwestoffroad.com/parts/20-22header.php
I have the 261 cam, hi flow cat, turbo muffler & 2.5" pipe.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 21, 2016, 04:57:47 AM
HEY i just found my WD40 spray bottle  :screwy:

Spray a little on your v-belts and see if they squeak.  :shake_head:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: benjyman on Aug 21, 2016, 07:12:21 AM
Spray a little on your v-belts and see if they squeak.  :shake_head:

Gnarls. :spin:
Ha ha

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 22, 2016, 07:44:02 AM
I had a 4 - 1 downey header years ago and I have also had the NWOR Yri-y.  My 20r has an unknown brand Tri-Y.

I ran the 4 - 1 on a stock 22re and then smashed it on a stump, when I replaced it with the NWOR Tr-Y.  I thought the 4 - 1 gave me a more noticeable seat of the pants pick up.  It also made a kind of penny-dropper sound which was cool.  The NWOR header was vastly superior in construction however.  It has outlasted three engines and I still have it in my shed.

I am running the stock manifold on my 22r, port-matched with the older style double down pipe, which makes it very similar to the runner lengths or my NWOR Tri-Y.  I think it's equal to the Tri-Y in performance.  That engine is carb though so not apples to apples.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 24, 2016, 08:37:33 AM
Is anyone running their 20R, 22R, or 22RE at a higher compression ratio than stock? Why or why not?  On a compression test, what lbs. of compression do you get? What octane rating are you burning?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: benjyman on Aug 24, 2016, 09:51:44 AM
You guys are too advanced for me I used to love my 22RE but that's about all I knew about it was that I loved it you guys are confusing me with all your high-tech chatter

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Aug 24, 2016, 11:35:21 AM
Is anyone running their 20R, 22R, or 22RE at a higher compression ratio than stock? Why or why not?  On a compression test, what lbs. of compression do you get? What octane rating are you burning?

Gnarls.

I am certain that mine is running a slightly higher compression ratio due to the block being significantly decked when it was rebuilt.  I had been running premium in it until just prior to the last Moab trip and didn't notice a different when dropping to regular grade fuel.  I've recently did a tune-up and installed new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor.  When it was in for the rear axle replacement I had my mechanic check the timing since he had it and it was set between 0 and 2 degrees.  He initially set it at the standard 5 degrees and it was pinging so it's currently at 3 degrees and seem ok.  The idle is a lot more rough when warmed up and I seem to have lost a little power overall but it runs really smoothly.  I am considering going back to premium and seeing how far I can advance the timing.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 24, 2016, 12:00:11 PM
I am certain that mine is running a slightly higher compression ratio due to the block being significantly decked when it was rebuilt.  I had been running premium in it until just prior to the last Moab trip and didn't notice a different when dropping to regular grade fuel.  I've recently did a tune-up and installed new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor.  When it was in for the rear axle replacement I had my mechanic check the timing since he had it and it was set between 0 and 2 degrees.  He initially set it at the standard 5 degrees and it was pinging so it's currently at 3 degrees and seem ok.  The idle is a lot more rough when warmed up and I seem to have lost a little power overall but it runs really smoothly.  I am considering going back to premium and seeing how far I can advance the timing.

OK, thanks for the commentary.  Yeah.. you don't want it pinging!

Do you remember how much the block was decked?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 24, 2016, 02:20:26 PM
You guys are too advanced for me I used to love my 22RE but that's about all I knew about it was that I loved it you guys are confusing me with all your high-tech chatter

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Hey Benjyman,

I'm not trying to confuse anyone.  But, as I rebuild this engine I have questions about some things and I am trying to anticipate any issues, as well as pick the brains of the guys here that have way more experience than I do.

The deck on this block was cleaned to only about .006" off during machining, but I'm curious how much it will raise the compression, which will be slightly. I'm hoping to be able to burn 87 Octane gas and avoid any ignition timing issue with pinging or detonation.  :dunno:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: benjyman on Aug 24, 2016, 03:08:15 PM
OK I was just playing what is the deck

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 24, 2016, 03:28:19 PM
OK I was just playing what is the deck

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Top of the engine block, the surface the head bolts to.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: benjyman on Aug 24, 2016, 03:34:08 PM
Cool cool. Sorry for side busting on your convo with some silly stupid shizz.


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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 24, 2016, 04:22:26 PM
Cool cool. Sorry for side busting on your convo with some silly stupid shizz.


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LOL.... Shizzz... yeah lots of that here!  :clap:

Textual communications is interesting.  Conceptual semantics plays a big role.  And, of course, tone, humor, and intent are all variables that are generally interpreted.:D

Fun stuff being on forum, especially an automotive forum.  :driving:

Gnarls. :smokin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Aug 24, 2016, 05:12:46 PM
OK, thanks for the commentary.  Yeah.. you don't want it pinging!

Do you remember how much the block was decked?

Gnarls.

I have no idea how much it was decked. I didn't do the build.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 25, 2016, 07:47:58 AM
Here’s some interesting results after playing with my desktop dyno….

Again, just looking at options to increase power in a stock 22.  I used the 22R specs.

See the attached Excel sheet. Please let me know if you cannot download and view it.

I’ve been told by a reputable 22RE engine expert that raising the compression to 10:1 in 22RE will require a change in the Engine Management System (e.g. MegaSquirt), and obviously running a higher fuel octane, and carefully adjusting ignition timing.

At a ½ pound increase in compression over stock, I believe the stock injectors and ECU will work fine.  You would have to test and carefully adjust the ignition timing and go to 89 or higher octane fuel.

Depending upon how you increased the compression, as H8PVMNT has suggested, an adjustable cam timing gear would be a good idea.

Any comments?

Thanks,

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 25, 2016, 01:49:09 PM
Stock compression ratio is 9.4

Going to 9.5 shouldn't increase that much.


There is a knock sensor, so timing should be fine.

I run my stock 86 3 degrees advanced on 87.

So adjusting initial timing and octane increase (if necessary) should handle 10:1


You should be able to get some nice squish too,   so that will help (assuming you're decking block to get compression increase)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 25, 2016, 03:47:48 PM
Stock compression ratio is 9.4

Going to 9.5 shouldn't increase that much.


There is a knock sensor, so timing should be fine.

I run my stock 86 3 degrees advanced on 87.

So adjusting initial timing and octane increase (if necessary) should handle 10:1


You should be able to get some nice squish too,   so that will help (assuming you're decking block to get compression increase)

Hi emsvitil,

Yeah.. I used 9.0:1 in my dyno specs because that is what I have always thought the 22RE was rated.  I have seen different compression ratio numbers. With my stock spec'd engbldr head with OS valves, plus my block deck was cleaned about .006", my compression ratio - best guess- will be between 9.2 and 9.4.

I haven't seen an official compression ratio specification anywhere.  LCE sells the Keith Black pistons that will supposedly take a stock 22 to 9.7:1.  If the stock compression ratio is 9.4, then it seems silly to spend money to only increase by 3/10th.  I could get to 9.7 by decking the head and installing an adjustable cam gear - which I still may buy.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 27, 2016, 03:10:52 PM
Hey Benjyman,

I'm not trying to confuse anyone.  But, as I rebuild this engine I have questions about some things and I am trying to anticipate any issues, as well as pick the brains of the guys here that have way more experience than I do.

The deck on this block was cleaned to only about .006" off during machining, but I'm curious how much it will raise the compression, which will be slightly. I'm hoping to be able to burn 87 Octane gas and avoid any ignition timing issue with pinging or detonation.  :dunno:

Gnarls. :spin:
.006 might raise the cr a tenth.  so say its 9.5 before it might be 9.6 now. 
My .060 over block engine had the deck cleaned .005 and the head cleaned .004 and the compression ratio calculated to be 9.7 with the timing retarded a little from the stock 8* to 5* I could pull any load with 87 octane.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 27, 2016, 04:55:59 PM
.006 might raise the cr a tenth.  so say its 9.5 before it might be 9.6 now. 
My .060 over block engine had the deck cleaned .005 and the head cleaned .004 and the compression ratio calculated to be 9.7 with the timing retarded a little from the stock 8* to 5* I could pull any load with 87 octane.



Here's my thinking...
If I could start over on this rebuild. I would consider going .060" over on the bore and raising the compression to 9.7 by milling the head + the block deck clean.  Even if I had to burn 89 octane or higher, it's only about $14.00 more a month on my averge fuel cost.

To get that extra torque, I think it would be worth it.  But... I've gotten different opinions on if its worth it or would make that much difference in power gain.

Any other thoughts...?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 28, 2016, 09:48:57 AM
More delay...

T-case shifter plate - W56B

Do I need to get the two paper gaskets or can I use Ultra Black?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: helipilot77 on Aug 28, 2016, 09:50:31 AM
I think you are at the point where making more power mods from a 22-r no longer produce the kind of gains that you can feel. The kind of additional you want would likely cost more than it's worth and an engine swap begins to be the best way to get more power. Remember that a 3-RZ, 5-VZ, 2-JZ, 1-KZ and 1-UZ each of these new generation "Z" motors make way more power and will all net you equal or better fuel economy. The process of installing one of these motors can be complicated and expensive but it will net you the kind of factory reliability that toyota built into them. If I were to advise you I would say drive the motor that you have built. Don't get to caught up in trying to get more power out of it. I would guess that as it is you have a carefully built motor that will give you enough power for what you need to have fun with it. I have seen too many times where people get caught up in the chase for more performance and they end up with a high dollar project that sits in pieces in the garage and when their friends go out wheeling they can't because their junk is in pieces.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 28, 2016, 09:55:22 AM
More delay...

T-case shifter plate - W56B

Do I need to get the two paper gaskets or can I use Ultra Black?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
I'd probably use some permatex black, lightly coating a new gasket from my buddy at the dealership

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 28, 2016, 10:12:11 AM
I think you are at the point where making more power mods from a 22-r no longer produce the kind of gains that you can feel. .... I have seen too many times where people get caught up in the chase for more performance ..

Hi helipilot77,

Yeah.. I agree we can get a little crazy with the subject of tweaking more power out of 22.  I've read thousands of posts over the years on the subject.  I've done engine swaps in my past and they were a lot of work and required fabricating adapter parts.  If I were going to get real serious about swapping an engine in this truck, I would become a sinner and build a 1963 Buick 215 aluminum block V-8 - IF I could get it to pass emissions. :shake_head:

For this rebuild I think the machining of the block and head at the machine shop, it probably would not cost much more to bore it to .060" over, deck the head a few thousandths, and buy an adjustable timing gear.

I DO think the gain torque would be worth it.... but it's all speculation right now.

It's all fun.

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 28, 2016, 10:14:35 AM
I'd probably use some permatex black, lightly coating a new gasket from my buddy at the dealership

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I was afraid someone would say "new gaskets".  I'll check my local dealership on Monday.

Thank you.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 28, 2016, 10:18:52 AM
Hahaha... Yeah i know the feeling.. but personally, I'd like to know that i put new gaskets in rather than hope for the best without.. $.02

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 28, 2016, 01:14:08 PM
I rolled the truck out of the garage after 3 years and 8 months.  I degreased the engine bay.  It felt good to wash off the dust and grease spots.

After I get my big muscular neighbor to help me push it up the driveway and back into the garage, then I can drop that 1300 HP engine I just rebuilt and start connecting stuff back up! :inthedark:

I still have to order my Doug Thorley header, and I should buy new clutch kit.  And I'm think'n about an adjustable cam gear...... and I'm sure there's a few more things that will make a ding on my debit card. :smack:

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: benjyman on Aug 28, 2016, 02:51:24 PM
That sounds exciting. Good days ahead.

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 28, 2016, 04:28:15 PM
That sounds exciting. Good days ahead.

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Thank you benjyman....

Yes, I'm looking forward to getting my truck back on, engine broken in well, then I'm going splurge for some chassis dyno testing just for poops 'n chuckles!  :greengrin:


My project is moving slower than I expected.  :-\ 

The garage is 100d F and I procrastinate way more than I should.  I under estimated the cost and how many parts I would have to replace.  My rebuild kitty is tapped out, so I'm saving up every week for my next purchases.

I have cut out almost all of my vices and I'm in frugal mode, so I may to work some OT!  :yikes:

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 28, 2016, 07:11:12 PM
Here's my thinking...
If I could start over on this rebuild. I would consider going .060" over on the bore and raising the compression to 9.7 by milling the head + the block deck clean.  Even if I had to burn 89 octane or higher, it's only about $14.00 more a month on my averge fuel cost.

To get that extra torque, I think it would be worth it.  But... I've gotten different opinions on if its worth it or would make that much difference in power gain.

Any other thoughts...?

Gnarls.

nah, wait ten years or 200,000 miles and then bore it to .060 :thumbs:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 28, 2016, 07:25:43 PM
I think you are at the point where making more power mods from a 22-r no longer produce the kind of gains that you can feel. The kind of additional you want would likely cost more than it's worth and an engine swap begins to be the best way to get more power. Remember that a 3-RZ, 5-VZ, 2-JZ, 1-KZ and 1-UZ each of these new generation "Z" motors make way more power and will all net you equal or better fuel economy. The process of installing one of these motors can be complicated and expensive but it will net you the kind of factory reliability that toyota built into them. If I were to advise you I would say drive the motor that you have built. Don't get to caught up in trying to get more power out of it. I would guess that as it is you have a carefully built motor that will give you enough power for what you need to have fun with it. I have seen too many times where people get caught up in the chase for more performance and they end up with a high dollar project that sits in pieces in the garage and when their friends go out wheeling they can't because their junk is in pieces.

just for shits and giggles I'm about to drop in that 85 22R i got through a friend of a friend BUT I am putting the header on it, my old intake and weber and my 1200 Marlin clutch.  That way I can very plainly see how much power the old motor had.

Heli, you know BigMike installed that 3rz in his 80 and it made 150 hp as it should BUT it still got like 16-17 mpg.   Thats the mileage my old 060 22R made.  :driving:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 29, 2016, 03:58:12 AM
nah, wait ten years or 200,000 miles and then bore it to .060 :thumbs:


Oooohhhhhh KKKKKKKKkkk.... you talked in me into it.  :beerchug:

Gnarls. :blah:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 29, 2016, 04:02:53 AM
... BUT it still got like 16-17 mpg.   Thats the mileage my old 060 22R made.  :driving:


Believe it or not... .in 1988, driving back from Tucson to Phoenix in my first 1986 22RE automatic, longbed, I drove with the AC off at about average 65 MPH and I got 28.3 MPH!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 29, 2016, 07:21:13 AM
Discussing gas mileage..... What should I expect to get with my engine rebuild? 

Any guesses or predictions?  It's a 5-speed and I don't baby my vehicles, but I don't drive stupid.  :driving:

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 29, 2016, 07:51:17 AM
I would say anywhere from 15-21mpg depending on how you are driving the thing.

Carbed 22r I've gotten as bad as 13 and up to 19 mpg so far.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 29, 2016, 09:22:17 AM
I would say anywhere from 15-21mpg depending on how you are driving the thing.

Carbed 22r I've gotten as bad as 13 and up to 19 mpg so far.

OK... yeah... my 1985 22R shortbed 5-speed with a DT header, and 2.25" exhaust, stock cam, 4.10 R&P, 33" tires, elevation average 1200 feet above sea level....usually hot to OMG! got 19 to 20 MPG consistently on 87 octane.   I record every tank of fuel and have it on an Excel spread sheet.  :gap:

If  I cannot get 20 MPG with this rebuild, I will be disappointed.   :thumbdown:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 29, 2016, 09:27:59 AM
My extra weight, wind resistance and tire keep me from breaking into 20 mpg I think.

I think guys are doing a little better mpg with the 261C.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 29, 2016, 09:31:52 AM
My extra weight, wind resistance and tire keep me from breaking into 20 mpg I think.

I think guys are doing a little better mpg with the 261C.

I am VERY curious how this cam and engine performs, and I will put it on the dyno at my local speed shop, and I will record my gas mileage.  We have wind here quite often and I drive from about 1,000 elevation to my home at about 1400 feet elevation, and I can feel the drag on the slow up hill climb for about 5 miles. If I'm bucking a headwind, I had to shift into 4th gear!  :shake_head:  ... which you have pointed out several times... bugs the crap out of me.

As I remember this truck is 3250 with a full tank of fuel and me sitting in it.... I'm 195 lbs.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 29, 2016, 03:56:58 PM
Hi helipilot77,

Yeah.. I agree we can get a little crazy with the subject of tweaking more power out of 22.  I've read thousands of posts over the years on the subject.  I've done engine swaps in my past and they were a lot of work and required fabricating adapter parts.  If I were going to get real serious about swapping an engine in this truck, I would become a sinner and build a 1963 Buick 215 aluminum block V-8 - IF I could get it to pass emissions. :shake_head:

For this rebuild I think the machining of the block and head at the machine shop, it probably would not cost much more to bore it to .060" over, deck the head a few thousandths, and buy an adjustable timing gear.

I DO think the gain torque would be worth it.... but it's all speculation right now.

It's all fun.

Gnarls.





I had that 215 in a hand-me down 1980 Toyota with cat sized rust holes in it.  It was a pretty cool engine, I have to say.  The carb didn't like angles at all but it got 16-17 mpg highway and was not lacking for power at all.  I ran it with stock gears and 33s.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: helipilot77 on Aug 29, 2016, 03:59:04 PM
What is the ballpark cost for a basic Dyno run? No tuning just to see what power your putting down.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Aug 29, 2016, 04:04:31 PM
I averaged 17-18 with my new engine on 87 octane. I did have the A/C on as well, although my truck does weigh in close to 4500  :headshake:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 29, 2016, 04:09:59 PM
What is the ballpark cost for a basic Dyno run? No tuning just to see what power your putting down.
Any shop near me wants about $90 to just over $120 for a few dyno runs

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 29, 2016, 04:41:33 PM
I had that 215 in a hand-me down 1980 Toyota with cat sized rust holes in it.  It was a pretty cool engine, I have to say.  The carb didn't like angles at all but it got 16-17 mpg highway and was not lacking for power at all.  I ran it with stock gears and 33s.


My nephew who is Mopar expert has a friend who has a good number of these 215 aluminum block engines and would build one for me for my truck.  I have always wanted to do a swap in my trucks.   

Back in my sand duning days, my good friend and ex-drag racer Steve Korney, raced a sand rail with a 215 with two bottles on it, one nitrous and one propane... guess what the propane was for??

It was EXTREMELY quick on the sand!

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 29, 2016, 04:44:56 PM
What is the ballpark cost for a basic Dyno run? No tuning just to see what power your putting down.

Hey helipilot77,

My local speed shop charges $110 for about 1 hour.  I can get about 3 to 4 pulls.

The operator has been operating this dyno and software for about 10 years. 

This is one of the most accurate chassis dynos on the market.  I’ve heard comments that the DynoJet  chassis dynos give “happy” numbers?

Here’s their chassis dyno:   http://mustangdyne.com/md-600-series/

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Aug 29, 2016, 05:38:27 PM

As I remember this truck is 3250 with a full tank of fuel and me sitting in it.... I'm 195 lbs.

Gnarls.
:yikes: damn that thing is LIGHT.  but you probably don't have the armor my 4500 lb truck does
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Aug 29, 2016, 05:52:14 PM

As I remember this truck is 3250 with a full tank of fuel and me sitting in it.... I'm 195 lbs.

Gnarls.


It's heavier than that...........

An 86 XtraCab has a 5080 GVW and a 1400 payload   (as I look at my 86 brochure)

That leaves an empty weight of 3680 lbs  without anybody or anything in it  (but full tank) 

Gas is 6.2lbs / gallon * 19.3 gallons = 119.7 lbs

or 3560.3 lbs as you run out of gas  (not including you)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 29, 2016, 06:47:39 PM

It's heavier than that...........

An 86 XtraCab has a 5080 GVW and a 1400 payload   (as I look at my 86 brochure)

That leaves an empty weight of 3680 lbs  without anybody or anything in it  (but full tank) 

Gas is 6.2lbs / gallon * 19.3 gallons = 119.7 lbs

or 3560.3 lbs as you run out of gas  (not including you)


I didn't mean to shave off some weight....

Well.. it's been almost ten years since I weighed it.  But, yes as I recollect I was surprised that it weighed about 300 lbs. more than my 1985 shortbed.  So, I can't find my little log book, but yes, I think it was close to 3500 + something?

I think my 1985 was 3195 with me not sitting in it and a full tank of fuel, 33" tires mounted on aluminum wheels, with 103" wheelbase. 

This 1986 has 112" wheelbase and has a 17 gallon gas tank.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 30, 2016, 07:37:59 AM
My nephew who is Mopar expert has a friend who has a good number of these 215 aluminum block engines and would build one for me for my truck.  I have always wanted to do a swap in my trucks.   

Back in my sand duning days, my good friend and ex-drag racer Steve Korney, raced a sand rail with a 215 with two bottles on it, one nitrous and one propane... guess what the propane was for??

It was EXTREMELY quick on the sand!

Gnarls.



There was one for sale for $500 over here last year.  I looked into it but the 215 is not an economical engine to rebuild.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 30, 2016, 09:52:33 AM
There was one for sale for $500 over here last year.  I looked into it but the 215 is not an economical engine to rebuild.

Hey H8PVMNT,

I haven't looked into a 215 swap for over 10 years, so I'd have to check it out again to see if I could get one to pass emissions, then how feasible to building one, including whether or not any adapters are available or I'd have to fab them?

A 4.7 V-8, like the one in my Tundra may be a smarter swap???  :dunno:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Aug 30, 2016, 10:25:34 AM
The one I had was on a 1980 style 4 speed.  It pretty much looked like it nearly bolted up.  I remember a couple extra holes drilled in the bell housing.  I never did a clutch in it but it supposedly had a mix of Toyota and Buick clutch components.

Guy who had it was an old school machinist so who knows.  I sold the truck real cheap to a buddy.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 30, 2016, 11:48:16 AM
Speaking of swaps... has anybody done a Toyota 4.7 V-8 swap in an early Toyota pickup or 4Runner?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 30, 2016, 11:56:56 AM
This guy did a 2uz swap: http://www.instagram.com/dinigram/

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Aug 30, 2016, 11:57:28 AM
http://www.instagram.com/p/BBOoLnKlfFJ/

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 30, 2016, 02:01:09 PM
http://www.instagram.com/p/BBOoLnKlfFJ/

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Thanks, excabswap,  I will check those out.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Aug 30, 2016, 07:26:12 PM
Hi redneckcustoms13,
Sorry I hven't been back on this thread in a while. I have ran numerous header options on 20r and 22r engines. I ran the dougy and lce both on the same engine in the the same truck. Could be that it was not a stock truck on 29" tires, but I felt zero difference between the two. Either is an upgrade over factory cracked manifold. Both would be an excellent choice in my opinion.
I re-read your post.  Are you saying that you could NOT tell any difference between the LCE and DT, or that you could not tell any difference between the LCE & DT and the stock exhaust manifold?

Thanks,

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Aug 30, 2016, 09:10:49 PM



Hey redneckcustoms1,

You posted what appears to be a quote that I posted.  I didn't post that.  It looks like you got your reply mixed up with my posted questions.   But I think I see what your reply is..

You couldn't tell the difference between the LCE 4-in-1 and the Doug Thorley, right?  And... your experience may be my experience.  I could test each one and NOT feel any difference... but I sure would like to test them on an engine dyno.

Speaking of experiences... obviously each of us has a different level of awareness, experience and driving style.  I have driven trucks that the owner thinks is a real modified cats-a$$ machine.  But, compared to my more stock 22R, my truck would kick his truck's butt.  I have also had a guy ride in my '85 and when I tac'd it to 5,000 RPM in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears, the guy says I'm going to blow up my engine! :willynilly:   ...and says he never tacs his engine over 4,000 RPM!!  :smack:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Sep 01, 2016, 03:45:26 AM
  I have also had a guy ride in my '85 and when I tac'd it to 5,000 RPM in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears, the guy says I'm going to blow up my engine! :willynilly:   ...and says he never tacs his engine over 4,000 RPM!!  :smack:

Gnarls.


 :smack:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 01, 2016, 04:23:45 AM
:smack:

I made a 1/2 dozen trips to the Glamis sand dunes with both my first 1986 22RE longbed automatic and my 1985 22R shortbed 5-speed.  I REDLINED those engines a-l-l daaaay loooonng!!  Before each trip, I went over the entire truck with a fine tooth comb and tuned the engines to within a gnat's a$$ of right-on!  Fresh oil and air filter.  I added a 1/2 can of STP Oil Treatment to crankcase.  At the dunes my tires were air'd down to 4 PSI.  I removed every pound I could from the truck, including tailgate and spare tire.  In my 85 I installed a 5-point harness, but in the dunes I could only use the lap belt because the bouncing in the seat would beat the crap out of my shoulders. 

Geeezz.. .those were fun wheel'n days!!!  :dancing:


Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 01, 2016, 04:52:00 PM
Question:

I'm about to clean the nasty carbon'd up throttle body.

What have you found that works the best?

I bought a couple brushes and will use some kind? of solvent.

It was 102d F in the garage today, so I didn't get to work on my engine that much!!  :crazy:

Thanks,

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Sep 01, 2016, 05:13:48 PM
Oil Eater from Costco and an old tooth brush.

Mix 50/50 with water.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 02, 2016, 07:25:17 AM
Pinesol works wonders on carbs.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 02, 2016, 08:23:25 AM
Pinesol works wonders on carbs.

Thank you for the input...

I did some research on the net on what products can clean an alloy throttle body and I got 2 dozen different opinions and experiences on what product has been used and what happened.

I was thinking about soaking it in a solution like overnight to help reduce the work to clean it out, but I'm not sure WHAT solution would attack the aluminum in the TB.  From the look of it, I'd guess that it is 30 years old and never been cleaned.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 09, 2016, 04:57:57 AM
UPDATE:  9-9-2016

The rebuild and re-install is going slower than I had anticipated.  I’ve spent more time cleaning parts and ordering parts than I predicted.  As I mentioned, I already went over budget by about 25% $$$$$.  :think:

I’m working a little OT to help fill in the dings in my checking account, I’m on rice & beans  :yumyum:, clipping coupons :gap:, and extended my hair cuts to every 6 weeks! :therethere:  I have the AC temp set at 81d F trying to save a little more on the outrageous summertime electric bills here in sunny AZ.  :idea:

HOT TIP:  If I could start over, I would have taken way more time to carefully examine EVERY part and make a list of all the parts I would need to replace or rebuild, including gaskets and rubber.  And, I would have added a “contingency fund” to my projected costs.  :smack:

Cleaning parts that look like they have not been cleaned in 30 years is worse than hard labor!  :thumbdown: My garage gets up to 100d F by about 1pm, so it really kicks my ol’ butt.  :crazy:  Maybe I should have killed that little bug before it crawled up my butt about rebuilding my engine in middle of summer! :yikes:

I’m not complaining… just sharing some personal thoughts, experience, adding some humor to my project so I don’t take life too seriously. :ha_ha: :D

Gnarls. :smokin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 12, 2016, 04:44:01 AM
UPDATE 9-12-16:

Yesterday was an attack in my engine rebuild project!  :yikes:

My house AC compressor on the heat pump apparently died.  My AC guy will let me know today, but it's estimated between $4,000 and $6,000.  I just had to put a set of tires on TWO vehicles in last week!  :yikes: 

Have you priced the cost of rubber lately!!!  :smack:

So the ding in my checking account is going to like IED!!  :rivers:

At 101 degrees F yesterday, needless to say I didn't get much sleep last night!

I guess the old saying "things happen in 3's" worked on me!!

Gnarls. :sad2:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 12, 2016, 07:51:03 AM
Gee, it's only predicted to be 98d F today.... and NO A/C!!  :willynilly: :crazy:

Would this be a 4x4 redneck air conditioning system?  :talkingn:

Those are frozen bottles.

Gnarls. :shudder:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Sep 12, 2016, 08:37:14 AM
Ouch, now that's no fun at all. Have you looked into getting one of those window A/C units? Could probably pick one up for cheap on craigslist.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 12, 2016, 09:16:19 AM
40 degrees here this morning and it was spitting snow last night.  :)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 12, 2016, 09:50:11 AM
40 degrees here this morning and it was spitting snow last night.  :)


How far are you from Missoula?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Sep 12, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
Still kicking in the 90s here. You can go to walmart and get a window unit good for 500 sqft for $100
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 12, 2016, 10:27:01 AM
How far are you from Missoula?

Gnarls.

About 3 hours, maybe 3 1/2 with a headwind.  Google says about 197 miles.  We are on the east side of the rockies though. Completely different culture than Missoula.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 12, 2016, 10:30:22 AM
In fact it's better if you don't say the word Missoula here.  :)  I found out the hard way because I used to live near Missoula.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Sep 12, 2016, 12:53:41 PM
Check out the Homer's bucket AC setup on YouTube

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Slabzilla on Sep 13, 2016, 08:29:20 PM
Memorial Day Wkend,2015, 85' Xtracab 22RE 5spd 4:10s 33s stock exhaust manifold after market Cat, Hushpower Muff, I got 25mpg going from Hermosa to Bishop fully loaded for a weekend of Wheelin'. The best so far for me.  :beerchug:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 16, 2016, 01:52:08 PM
Check this out:  http://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/210283-maximum-human-torque.html

Even roadies get into debates about torque.  Kind of reminds me of all us guys on here and our cam and gearing discussions.  There is a legitimate possibility that a guy in good shape may have more torque than a tired 22r.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 16, 2016, 03:53:01 PM
Memorial Day Wkend,2015, 85' Xtracab 22RE 5spd 4:10s 33s stock exhaust manifold after market Cat, Hushpower Muff, I got 25mpg going from Hermosa to Bishop fully loaded for a weekend of Wheelin'. The best so far for me.  :beerchug:

That's pretty good MPG.  I averaged between 19 and 20 with my 1985 22R, 5-speed, 33s, 4.10s.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 16, 2016, 04:18:14 PM
...  There is a legitimate possibility that a guy in good shape may have more torque than a tired 22r.


What?????????????

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 17, 2016, 10:20:48 AM
I had a bad dream last night.  I could not get all the connections, hoses, injector plugs back onto my engine after dropping it back into the engine bay!! :yikes:

Since I did NOT label all the wires and tubes, I'm starting to have some anxiety about getting everything properly connected.   :conf:

Is there a way to verify all the connections to the sensors, injectors, hoses, etc, etc. ?? :conf:

I know there are diagrams of vacuum hose connections? :gap:

I haven't done a ton of research yet.

Any help will be most appreciated.

Gnarls. :inthedark:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 17, 2016, 04:41:07 PM
Here Gnarls:

The color of the plastic plug does not matter... You will have two injector plugs with white/red and yellow wires - those two go to cyl#'s 1 and 3.
 the other two plugs will have white and blur wires.. those two plugs go to injectors # 2 and 4.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Sep 17, 2016, 04:45:23 PM
Wow, Dude?
are you talking to yourself?
Answering your own questions?
COOL! I Like IT!
Do It Again!  :beerchug:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 17, 2016, 05:27:04 PM
Here Gnarls:

The color of the plastic plug does not matter... You will have two injector plugs with white/red and yellow wires - those two go to cyl#'s 1 and 3.
 the other two plugs will have white and blur wires.. those two plugs go to injectors # 2 and 4.

Hey Gnarls...  Thank you for the info, I had some anal pucker thinking that I didn't label those 4 wires!

You're an awesome dude!   :rockingout:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Sep 17, 2016, 05:39:37 PM
Gnarly, if you got the injector plugs mixed up it'd be fine. The 22re's are batch fire, meaning all 4 fire at the same time every time. But typically the front two are taped together and the back two are taped together. Also, have you pulled the wiring harness apart to solder all 4 injector grounds? Toyota crimped them together and it can cause problems if they fail, when they fail they typically take out two injectors. Or if it's far enough down the line all 4.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 17, 2016, 05:52:52 PM
Gnarly, if you got the injector plugs mixed up it'd be fine. The 22re's are batch fire, meaning all 4 fire at the same time every time. But typically the front two are taped together and the back two are taped together. Also, have you pulled the wiring harness apart to solder all 4 injector grounds? Toyota crimped them together and it can cause problems if they fail, when they fail they typically take out two injectors. Or if it's far enough down the line all 4.

What a minute...??????  So all 4 injectors fire fuel at the same time???? No wonder I only get 24 MPG!!!!

Holy Crapity!!!  Geezz.... how far into the wire harness do I need to look?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Sep 17, 2016, 05:56:09 PM
I wanna say not very far, maybe 2 feet or so. But it's hard for me to judge correctly since I had my whole harness out of the truck for repair and wrapping.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Sep 17, 2016, 05:56:54 PM
What a minute...??????  So all 4 injectors fire fuel at the same time???? No wonder I only get 24 MPG!!!!

Holy Crapity!!!  Geezz.... how far into the wire harness do I need to look?

Gnarls.

Yup, a 22re is batch fire. Which does suck in a way but these old ECU's aren't capable of much more.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 17, 2016, 05:58:06 PM
I wanna say not very far, maybe 2 feet or so. But it's hard for me to judge correctly since I had my whole harness out of the truck for repair and wrapping.

Geezz.. I think I'd rather get beat with an ugly stick than have to get into my wire harness!!  :yikes:

Gnarls. :ack:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Sep 17, 2016, 05:59:09 PM
Is there any add-on module that you could use to change them to individually fire? I saw something from LCE very i think it was for the plugs

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Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Sep 17, 2016, 06:01:54 PM
You could in megasquirt. I wouldn't buy any stand alone from LCE. Megasquirt is typically half the price or more unless you buy their fully assembled PNP ECU.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 17, 2016, 06:31:32 PM
MegaSquirt....... I don't think I have enough mega in my squirt to be messing with that!  :disturbed:

Gnarls. :D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Slabzilla on Sep 17, 2016, 07:15:53 PM
Most of the wiring harness falls into place and has the connectors appropriate for the sensors/injectors.  The vacuum lines have a diagram on the inside of the hood or you can locate a factory manual for info.  I downloaded the pdf version for my 85' from the internet, but have the factory hard copy too.  If your hood doesn't have the sticker of the vac lines, you can order one from Toyota.   :twocents:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Slabzilla on Sep 17, 2016, 07:49:38 PM
Hey Gnarls, you'll probably find a couple of connectors that don't go to anything under the intake, just look inside the plug and if it's dirty it's probably an unused one.  Just my ongoing experience.   :twocents:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: benjyman on Sep 17, 2016, 08:31:55 PM
Wow, Dude?
are you talking to yourself?
Answering your own questions?
COOL! I Like IT!
Do It Again!  :beerchug:
That made me Laugh out loud for real.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: helipilot77 on Sep 17, 2016, 10:20:26 PM
You could in megasquirt. I wouldn't buy any stand alone from LCE. Megasquirt is typically half the price or more unless you buy their fully assembled PNP ECU.


Zippo ran a megasquirt on his 22R-ze (supercharged) it was pretty plug and play. He didn't have to do any tuning before starting it up. I think it canes pre programmed with a base map. You can of course reprogram them to you own perameters.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Sep 17, 2016, 10:35:24 PM

Zippo ran a megasquirt on his 22R-ze (supercharged) it was pretty plug and play. He didn't have to do any tuning before starting it up. I think it canes pre programmed with a base map. You can of course reprogram them to you own perameters.

That what I meant with the megasquirt PNP. It's a fully assembled ECU that you can load a premade base map onto that'll go onto any wiring harness from a 22re from 85-91 UNLESS you have an automatic tranny.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Sep 17, 2016, 11:34:56 PM
And it'll get rid of the all at once fuel injector system? Anyone seen a dyno result of power difference?

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Sep 17, 2016, 11:43:50 PM
Highly doubtful as the person who did the write up on installing megasquirt into his 22re kept it as batch fire. You'd have to figure out when the injectors fire during the timing cycle and program that in I believe. IMHO it isn't worth it, batch fire works just fine on these old engine. If you really want to make power do an engine swap.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Sep 17, 2016, 11:51:13 PM
Here's an article that talks about converting to sequential injection. http://www.yotatech.com/f116/22re-simultaneous-injection-explain-please-160477/index2.html
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Sep 18, 2016, 01:12:45 AM
Gnarls, the harness is very easy.  in most cases you'll find if you have two sensors close together the wires that reach will have a different connector.  the injector wires for the #4 will reach one and three but  one and three wont reach four.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 19, 2016, 03:48:23 AM
Gnarls, the harness is very easy.  in most cases you'll find if you have two sensors close together the wires that reach will have a different connector.  the injector wires for the #4 will reach one and three but  one and three wont reach four.


Ok, thanks.  Well, I'm hoping to "lower" it in by this coming week end.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Sep 19, 2016, 07:26:16 AM
I had a bad dream last night.  I could not get all the connections, hoses, injector plugs back onto my engine after dropping it back into the engine bay!! :yikes:

Since I did NOT label all the wires and tubes, I'm starting to have some anxiety about getting everything properly connected.   :conf:

Is there a way to verify all the connections to the sensors, injectors, hoses, etc, etc. ?? :conf:

I know there are diagrams of vacuum hose connections? :gap:

I haven't done a ton of research yet.

Any help will be most appreciated.

Gnarls. :inthedark:



Everything's going to be all right. 

I've done the same thing before and it's just not that bad.  If you  get the harness in the right place it's pretty apparent where things go.  Vac lines too.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 19, 2016, 07:49:09 AM
Everything's going to be all right. 

I've done the same thing before and it's just not that bad.  If you  get the harness in the right place it's pretty apparent where things go.  Vac lines too.

OK, thanks.

I had to remove the throttle body before I could disconnect and remove the wire harness, as I was lifting it out of the engine bay.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Sep 19, 2016, 03:24:25 PM
I just hate it when you get everything back together and find a missing piece........

Then have to take everything apart to put the missing piece in.........
(or waste hours trying to figure out how to put the missing piece in without taking everything apart, before taking everything apart)

 :cheese:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Sep 19, 2016, 03:40:17 PM
When I was in tech school Long Long ago.....
I had Just completed  My first turbo 350 rebuild  when I noticed a clip That I did not recall removing.
I went to My Instructor and said "where does this go, I don't recall removing it"
He responds with "That's the first piece you install it goes just above the reverse low clutch housing"
"How far are you on the reassemble?"  :therethere:
"I guess I Just started"  :rivers:   
I will remember that clip till the day I die. Oh, and I will never forget exactly where it goes, LOL
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 19, 2016, 07:23:28 PM
Well... I'm glad   :haha: :clap: :laugh:  I'm not the only one that might feel like a ree-tard trying to remember where every goes back together. 

It causes me a lot of frustration and self-torture for NOT marking, labeling, and photographing everything! :smack:

When I look at my bench with all the parts yet to be assembled, I feel some serious anal pucker because there should NOT be THAT many parts!!!!

Gnarls. :inthedark:


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 19, 2016, 07:44:39 PM
UPDATE SEPT  19, 2016

I am taking extra time to clean and repaint parts, so I thought I’d share my “painting” experience so far.

I bought two kinds of  “engine” spray paint.  The Rust-Oleum took about 12 hours to dry to the touch.  My garage was about 95 degrees when I spayed the parts about 1pm.  When I checked on the Rust-Oleum painte parts they were still tacky at 7pm, and dry to the touch at 3:45am this morning.  The VHT paint was dry to the touch in about 30 minutes.  The nozzle on the Rust-Oleum spray a big pattern and splatters.  The VHT Engine Enamel has a really nice nozzle and sprays a very nice tight pattern.  The Rust-Oleum Engine Enamel was about half the price of VHT at Autozone, but I will buy VHT engine paint over the Rust-Oleum engine any day.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Sep 19, 2016, 07:49:54 PM
Let me know in a year which paint lasts longer.............
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 20, 2016, 07:22:23 AM
Let me know in a year which paint lasts longer.............

Hey emsvitil,

Yeah, I thought about that.  Of course I won't didley for 1 year!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: helipilot77 on Sep 20, 2016, 08:11:37 AM
UPDATE SEPT  19, 2016

I am taking extra time to clean and repaint parts, so I thought I’d share my “painting” experience so far.

I bought two kinds of  “engine” spray paint.  The Rust-Oleum took about 12 hours to dry to the touch.  My garage was about 95 degrees when I spayed the parts about 1pm.  When I checked on the Rust-Oleum painte parts they were still tacky at 7pm, and dry to the touch at 3:45am this morning.  The VHT paint was dry to the touch in about 30 minutes.  The nozzle on the Rust-Oleum spray a big pattern and splatters.  The VHT Engine Enamel has a really nice nozzle and sprays a very nice tight pattern.  The Rust-Oleum Engine Enamel was about half the price of VHT at Autozone, but I will buy VHT engine paint over the Rust-Oleum engine any day.

Gnarls. :spin:

I've had the best luck with Dupli-Color engine enamel which is good to 500 degrees and has ceramic in it. Zippo got me hooked on it. It dries fast, sticks very good to poorly prepped surfaces and is durable. I use it for bumpers and chassis painting too.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 20, 2016, 10:11:37 AM
I've had the best luck with Dupli-Color engine enamel which is good to 500 degrees and has ceramic in it. Zippo got me hooked on it. It dries fast, sticks very good to poorly prepped surfaces and is durable. I use it for bumpers and chassis painting too.

OK, thanks, I'll check out Dupli-Color.  I have a few more pieces to paint.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 20, 2016, 06:39:32 PM
Just to add a little more to my painting and detailing efforts during my rebuild project for those who may be like me and enjoy making the project look nice.

I like the VHT Primer.  I spent 2 or 3 hours cleaning and scrubbing the tranny & t-case with paint thinner solvent and acetone trying to degrease what looked like 30 years of grease and grime. I am impressed with the VHT Primer. It covered very well with no fish-eye or orange peel.  I am going to spray it with VHT Universal Aluminum, like I did with the throttle body.

NOTE:  the Walmart brand paint thinner that is white (Safer-green) does NOT do nearly as good as the clear formula.

While I'm thinking about it, for those who install headers, I have used a trick for years.  I wrap my header with aluminum foil before installing it so I don't get finger prints and grease on the coating or plating that will usually stain the surface as soon as you fire the engine. After its all installed, I remove the foil before firing the engine.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: benjyman on Sep 20, 2016, 07:11:51 PM
Nice

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 21, 2016, 03:48:18 AM
Nice

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk



Hey  :haha: Squeaky,

Thanks.

So, when I joined the Mesa 4 Wheelers way back in the late 80's, they had a traditional thing of giving a member a " CB handle".  It was funny and interesting  how each member got "assigned" a CB handle.  On one of our many club trail runs I was trying to climb a really bad-a$$ hill and I said "That is one "Double Gnarly" hill!  From that moment, my CB handle was "Double Gnarly".  So..... since YOU have been dealing with a "squeak" for quite awhile and you made us have to deal with it too, YOUR CB handle or trail handle should be "Squeaky"!!!  :smooch: :beerchug:

Gnarls. :driving:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: kneedownnate on Sep 21, 2016, 12:55:02 PM
I've had the best luck with Dupli-Color engine enamel which is good to 500 degrees and has ceramic in it.

:yesnod:  Dupli-color is my go to engine paint and has done me well for many, many years.  Very easy to get a nice finish if prepped well.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Slabzilla on Sep 22, 2016, 03:02:25 PM
Gnarls, nice tip on the header paint foil, been using that for years.  Dupli-color with ceramic is my go to for almost everything, great coverage & adhesion even with so so prep.  I'm doing my manifold like yours next time it's off.  :biggthumpup:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 25, 2016, 04:36:21 PM
UPDATE 9-25-16 – Tranny & T-Case cleaned and painted  :yesnod:

This was a real bear to clean. Inside of the bell housing looked like it had never been cleaned - it had a about 1/4" thick layer.  The grease and grim on the tranny and t-case was baked on. After hours of scrubbing with wire brushes with paint thinner and degreaser,  I did one final de-grease with acetone and my air gun.  I sprayed it with VHT Primer, then a coat of VHT Universal Aluminum.  I left the inside of the bell housing just a good coat of primer. :blah:

I painted the clutch fork and grease shields for the U-joints with Rust-Oleum Engine Black.  :shades:

This extra work and time-consuming but I always feel better when I look at it after its all finished.  :gap:

I’ve attached the before and after photos.  :D

I re-installed the hose fittings and attached as many hoses as I could to the throttle body.  I’m getting close to dropping this little baby onto the motor mounts.  :clap:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Sep 27, 2016, 01:17:31 AM
When I was in tech school Long Long ago.....
I had Just completed  My first turbo 350 rebuild  when I noticed a clip That I did not recall removing.
I went to My Instructor and said "where does this go, I don't recall removing it"
He responds with "That's the first piece you install it goes just above the reverse low clutch housing"
"How far are you on the reassemble?"  :therethere:
"I guess I Just started"  :rivers:   
I will remember that clip till the day I die. Oh, and I will never forget exactly where it goes, LOL
:smack:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 27, 2016, 03:48:49 AM
:smack:



Like many others here, I have learned many hot tips and lots of great information from those who have generously taken the time to share, I also want to share what I have learned, as well as admit my mistakes and things I would do differently.  :driving:

Not to make any excuses, however this is the first complete rebuild I have done on a Toyota 22RE engine.  I rushed into this project too fast and didn’t take the time to accurately and completely photograph and video record the engine before starting disassembly, during the disassembly, and evaluating condition of all parts.

I should have been more careful at labeling parts, tubes, hoses, and connectors, and documenting the disassembly/re-assembly steps.  This is especially true where several parts needed to be connected together with several other pieces using the same bolt or nut. :yesnod:

I put various nuts and bolts into labeled cups because I knew I would not remember where they belonged.  :gap: :thumbs:

I have bolts and nuts sitting on my work table that are not labeled and I’m not sure where they go!!!.... how stupid is that?  :shake_head:

I have a few cups with bolts in them and the cup is NOT labeled!!... how stupid is that??  :shake_head:

I learn by doing, but as a DIYer I just haven’t had the opportunities to practice, fix or repair my Toyota trucks that often… their reliability is legendary.

Will I have some parts left over after its all back together???.... holy crapity!  :smack:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Prismo on Sep 28, 2016, 08:04:47 PM
I always get screwed up putting the power steering/alternator brackets back in. I finally took pictures the last time so I can refer to them next time.......If I even remember I took them in the first place lol
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Sep 29, 2016, 04:24:52 AM
I always get screwed up putting the power steering/alternator brackets back in. I finally took pictures the last time so I can refer to them next time.......If I even remember I took them in the first place lol

LOL!!.... Yeah during that episode of reassembly I mentally masturbated for way too long over that!!!  Even my pornographic memory didn't help me!!   :headscratch: :hammerhead:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 4runner4x4 on Oct 04, 2016, 01:34:05 PM
LOL!!.... Yeah during that episode of reassembly I mentally masturbated for way too long over that!!!  Even my pornographic memory didn't help me!!   :headscratch: :hammerhead:

Gnarls.  :spin:

can you send me those pictures i am scratching my head on this build
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 04, 2016, 04:22:25 PM
can you send me those pictures i am scratching my head on this build

Hey 4runner4x4,

I can post photos tonight.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 4runner4x4 on Oct 04, 2016, 04:49:07 PM
thanks bud i need to upload my block aswell
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 04, 2016, 09:09:32 PM
Here ya go....

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Oct 04, 2016, 09:53:54 PM
Here ya go....

Gnarls.

Looks Good!  :respect:
Make us a Video when you do the initial break-in, Please..............
I am a sucker for a clean 22re.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 05, 2016, 03:38:04 AM
Well... it's chained to the cherry picker because I'm getting it ready to drop onto the motor mounts, but it's not balanced level.  I chained it the engine so it will not bend the hooks, like it did when I pulled it.

As I mentioned, to do it again I would paint the engine block a different color than black, probably a light gray.

The bellhousing plate is not orange, it's actually the same color as the rocker cover.

Thank you, the video recording suggestion is a good one.  I didn't think of that.  I'll see how I can get someone to video me prepping and firing the engine for camshaft break-in.

I decided to install the stock exhaust header and exhaust piping with cat and muffler.  I am very curious to see how much difference in a dyno test when I swap in the DT header and 2.25" exhaust.  After its broken in for a couple thousand miles, I want to dyno it.  The next day, I want to install the DT header and new exhaust, drive it for a couple days to make sure Mommy ECU is happy, then dyno it again.

I still need to buy a new O2 sensor because I don't know much heat they can handle. I'm sure when I over heated the engine, the stock exhaust header was probably glowing red, and of course the O2 sensor is sitting near the bottom of the stock exhaust header.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 4runner4x4 on Oct 05, 2016, 09:04:01 AM
thank you very much.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Smithk2ski on Oct 05, 2016, 03:42:25 PM
Nice
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 09, 2016, 03:59:29 PM
UPDATE 10-9-2016  Engine dropped into engine bay  :D

For those who may be interested…  :thumbs:

It felt good to finally drop that shiny little turd onto the motor mounts.  :gap:

HOW TO LOWER THE ENGINE ON THE MOTOR MOUNTS
Not having done it before, I learned something. After wrestling with it and the cherry picker for about 30 minutes, I realized it was not going to sit onto the two motor mount studs.  So I removed the driver’s side motor mount (two bolts and nuts) from the frame rail and attached it to the engine mount bracket already torqued down with the stud and nut.  That allowed me to easily maneuver the engine onto the motor mount stud on the passenger side. Once it landed on the stud, I was able wrestle it down onto the frame and get the front holes lined up enough to get the bolt and nut on. Then I had to use my floor jack to raise the back of the engine so I could get the other bolt and nut into the rear holes on the motor mount.  If I had to pull this engine again, I’d to the same thing, remove the two bolts on the driver’s side motor mount from the frame rail.

REPLACED JUST THE DRIVER’S SIDE MOTOR MOUNT
I had a new motor mount so I replaced the driver’s side only, since it’s the one that gets all the pulling torque.

HOME-MADE PILOT BEARING PULLER TOOL
I tried to rent a pilot bearing puller but could find one. I was not about to spend $80 to $200 for pilot bearing puller, so I made my one.  I took a 12mm bolt, longer would been way better.  With my Dremel tool cut off wheel I ground 4 slits in the end, then took Makita 4” grinder and rounded the end.  I packed the hole with wheel bearing grease and with my ball & thingy hammer, I hammered it in until it hit the end of crankshaft.  I hammered on the hex end away from the crankshaft but it was a very shallow angle because the hex head was too close to the bellhousing plate, but within about 5 minutes of tapping all around the hex head, the bearing came out!!!

BALANCED FLYWHEEL AND PRESSURE PLATE
The machine shop balanced the flywheel and the pressure plate together independent of the crankshaft.  You can see the drill marks.  They stamped marked the flywheel and pressure plate so I would get the balance lined up correctly..... but ... I almost forgot they did that!  :smack:

The balance bar I bought from Harbor Freight came in handy.

Now I get see if I can figure out where all those wires go!!!!  :clap:

Gnarls :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Oct 09, 2016, 04:05:56 PM
Easiest for mine was to attach the motor mounts to the block first.
Also, do you have any need of that bad motor mount? Any interest of getting rid of it?

For the pilot bearing in the future: grease mixed with newspaper shreddings, fill the back of the bearing with the grease mixture, and tap a thick bolt in it. Hydraulic pressure will push the bearing out

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Oct 09, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
Easiest for mine was to attach the motor mounts to the block first.
Also, do you have any need of that bad motor mount? Any interest of getting rid of it?

For the pilot bearing in the future: grease mixed with newspaper shreddings, fill the back of the bearing with the grease mixture, and tap a thick bolt in it. Hydraulic pressure will push the bearing out

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



I use bread, pack pilot bearing, I have 3/8 ext, with end cut off , works great, easy clean up
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 09, 2016, 04:19:07 PM
Easiest for mine was to attach the motor mounts to the block first.
Also, do you have any need of that bad motor mount? Any interest of getting rid of it?

For the pilot bearing in the future: grease mixed with newspaper shreddings, fill the back of the bearing with the grease mixture, and tap a thick bolt in it. Hydraulic pressure will push the bearing out

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk


Hey excabswap,

The motor mount I replaced on the driver's side is not bad.  Because I happen to have a new spare, I replaced it.  I would normally just keep it as a spare. I had to replace a broken driver's side motor mount on a Moab trip and it was NOT fun!  The one I bought in Moab was NOT a direct fit and I had to lay on my back under my truck and grind holes with rat tail file for a long time!

On the pilot bearing, I tried the grease trick this time.  I tried it the last time I did clutch job on my '85 and it didn't work for me then either.

I have suspicion that the pilot bearing has never been replaced.  It was frozen and not turning, so I think that is why the tip of the input shaft is badly worn.

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 09, 2016, 04:22:56 PM
I use bread, pack pilot bearing, I have 3/8 ext, with end cut off , works great, easy clean up

Hey ovrarok,

Yeah, I read that guys have had good luck with the bread.  I didn't try that.  It looks to me that I would have to have an extremely tight fitting shaft in order for the grease or bead to not squish out. 

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Oct 09, 2016, 04:26:30 PM
Hey ovrarok,

Yeah, I read that guys have had good luck with the bread.  I didn't try that.  It looks to me that I would have to have an extremely tight fitting shaft in order for the grease or bead to not squish out. 

Gnarls.

The bread doesn't squeeze out as easy as the grease
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Oct 09, 2016, 04:31:05 PM
That's what i newspaper is for I think.. never heard of the bread truck before I'll have to try it sometime

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 09, 2016, 04:43:47 PM
The bread doesn't squeeze out as easy as the grease

Yeah, that make sense.  On my 85 clutch job I rented a pilot bearing puller from Autozone and it was piece of ca-ca.  I screwed with it for about 10 minutes.  I finally just made my own out of grade 8 bolt. I couldn't find it or my slide hammer  in all my garage $hait this time!  I just ground a hook in the end and attached it to my dent pulled slide hammer and I popped it out in about 1 minute.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 09, 2016, 04:45:28 PM

Also, do you have any need of that bad motor mount? Any interest of getting rid of it?


I'm just curious, what do you do with a bad motor mount?  :dunno:

Gnarls  :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Oct 09, 2016, 04:49:30 PM
I'm just curious, what do you do with a bad motor mount?  :dunno:
I turn it into a bomb proof mount without pulling my mount first. My driver's side mount is pretty toast..
Plus it saves me from having to purchase a brand new mount, employee discount or not..

But no worries, I'm sure I'll find something soon

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 09, 2016, 04:53:41 PM
I turn it into a bomb proof mount without pulling my mount first. My driver's side mount is pretty toast..
Plus it saves me from having to purchase a brand new mount, employee discount or not..

But no worries, I'm sure I'll find something soon

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



How much are they now?  I ordered this one from the Toy dealer around 2001 and it was $70.99 (the label and sticker were still on it) and I had to buy the engine mount bracket with it.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: benjyman on Oct 09, 2016, 06:37:45 PM
That's a good looking 22RE. I'm rooting for ya.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 10, 2016, 02:52:02 AM
That's a good looking 22RE. I'm rooting for ya.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk



Hey benjyman,

Thank you.  Well... It looks nice all cleaned and painted.  But..... I hope I have properly rebuilt it to so it fires up and runs like a Toyota 22RE should run - with a few popular upgraded modifications.  :gap:

I should know in a couple weeks.  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Oct 11, 2016, 07:47:38 AM
I have this tin of really thick, black, early 1900s axle grease I found in a shed at our old house.  Works perfect for pushing out pilot bearings.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Oct 11, 2016, 07:48:32 AM
Pics in the engine bay?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 11, 2016, 09:32:35 AM
Pics in the engine bay?

Hey H8PVMNT,

Sure, I can take some photos tonight and post them.  I didn't do anything with engine bay except degrease it and spray paint the diff, frame rails, and whatever I could reach from the front of the truck.  If I were to do it again, I'd paint the front end under the engine are a gray color, just to be able to see any oil or fluid leaks.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 11, 2016, 03:16:18 PM
Well... it's chained to the cherry picker because I'm getting it ready to drop onto the motor mounts, but it's not balanced level.  I chained it the engine so it will not bend the hooks, like it did when I pulled it.

As I mentioned, to do it again I would paint the engine block a different color than black, probably a light gray.

The bellhousing plate is not orange, it's actually the same color as the rocker cover.

Thank you, the video recording suggestion is a good one.  I didn't think of that.  I'll see how I can get someone to video me prepping and firing the engine for camshaft break-in.

I decided to install the stock exhaust header and exhaust piping with cat and muffler.  I am very curious to see how much difference in a dyno test when I swap in the DT header and 2.25" exhaust.  After its broken in for a couple thousand miles, I want to dyno it.  The next day, I want to install the DT header and new exhaust, drive it for a couple days to make sure Mommy ECU is happy, then dyno it again.

I still need to buy a new O2 sensor because I don't know much heat they can handle. I'm sure when I over heated the engine, the stock exhaust header was probably glowing red, and of course the O2 sensor is sitting near the bottom of the stock exhaust header.

Gnarls.



they can handle the heat pretty well.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 14, 2016, 04:31:34 AM
they can handle the heat pretty well.

Hey 79coyotefrg,

The zirconium style O2 sensors have an operating range of about 400d F to about 1200d F.  Exhaust gases are typically about 600d F at exhaust manifold when engine is at normal operating temperature.

I just don't know how much hotter the exhaust gases would be at the peak of on over-heated engine that heats up and stalls, and at what temperature the O2 sensor actually fails or is destroyed. :dunno:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 14, 2016, 04:36:24 AM
Pics in the engine bay?

Hey H8PVMNT,

I won't be able to get my engine bay photos posted until Sunday.  This week my "family stuff" took precedent over my "truck stuff".

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 18, 2016, 08:04:50 AM
Got a question about my alternator. I cleaned it thoroughly with paint thinner, then blew it with compressed air.  I noticed when I spin it sitting on the bench it has clicking notchy sound. I don't remember if the bearings are sealed or open. I'm concerned that a bearing(s) are bad.  :dunno:

Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Oct 18, 2016, 08:48:06 AM
Got a question about my alternator. I cleaned it thoroughly with paint thinner, then blew it with compressed air.  I noticed when I spin it sitting on the bench it has clicking notchy sound. I don't remember if the bearings are sealed or open. I'm concerned that a bearing(s) are bad.  :dunno:

Any comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.

on a 22re alternator, both bearings are sealed
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 18, 2016, 09:35:09 AM
on a 22re alternator, both bearings are sealed

Ok, thanks.  So, would it be abnormal for it to make a clicking-clunky sound when I spin the rotator-flux-capacitor shaft?

The last time I cleaned it with paint thinner I don't remember it making any sound when spinning it on the bench.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Oct 18, 2016, 03:13:17 PM
Maybe you cleaned it too good :).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 18, 2016, 03:21:41 PM
They're sealed, but with age the grease turns into blue smoke and disappears.......

Haven't done it on a Toyota (did it on my old 64 valiant), but you should be able to replace the bearings yourself (on the 64, the bearings were dry)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 4runner4x4 on Oct 18, 2016, 04:52:39 PM
They're sealed, but with age the grease turns into blue smoke and disappears.......

Haven't done it on a Toyota (did it on my old 64 valiant), but you should be able to replace the bearings yourself (on the 64, the bearings were dry)

mopar or no car.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 19, 2016, 03:19:02 AM
They're sealed, but with age the grease turns into blue smoke and disappears.......

Haven't done it on a Toyota (did it on my old 64 valiant), but you should be able to replace the bearings yourself (on the 64, the bearings were dry)


http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Alternator+Commutator+End+Bearing/01483/C0330.oap?model=Pickup&vi=1277412&year=1986&make=Toyota

Can I assume correctly that there are 2 bearings in this alternator?  If so, that’s about $60, plus my labor.

I can buy a new remanufactured one for $72.00

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Alternator/01468/C0330.oap?model=Pickup&vi=1277412&year=1986&make=Toyota

For $12 is this a “no-brainer”?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 19, 2016, 05:37:59 AM
Now look up the bearing numbers (I think they're different) and spend about $5 a bearing.........

no-brainer is now changing the bearings yourself......

(change the brushes while you're at it,   I'm guessing $10)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Oct 19, 2016, 06:51:44 AM
If that's the original Toyota alternator keep it and just fix it. I'm on my 4th one from O Reilly's.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 19, 2016, 07:17:53 AM
If that's the original Toyota alternator keep it and just fix it. I'm on my 4th one from O Reilly's.

Yeah... If I replace it, I will buy a Bosch, and pay the extra price for it.  I've already been down the road with the crapity-life-time-warranty junk.  Saving $50 or $60 on an alternator is just not worth the hassle when one fails... at least for me.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 19, 2016, 07:19:15 AM
If that's the original Toyota alternator keep it and just fix it. I'm on my 4th one from O Reilly's.

I don't know if it's the original... I doubt it.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 19, 2016, 07:20:16 AM
Now look up the bearing numbers (I think they're different) and spend about $5 a bearing.........

no-brainer is now changing the bearings yourself......

(change the brushes while you're at it,   I'm guessing $10)

OK, I can do more research.  I don't mind rebuilding it, if it's reasonable.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Oct 19, 2016, 07:29:29 AM
Hey Gnarly,
I just caught My first peek at the truck itself. The picture of the load leveler, In the back ground.
I like it a lot. Clean white 1986 ext cab.  :bowdown: Looks Good from what I have seen. Take good care of it your a lucky guy.  :thumbs:
There is something special about them extra cabs. I would love one as a daily driver. 3rz supercharged of coarse.
You know I just might have made a decision on My next daily driver.  :willynilly:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 19, 2016, 11:47:43 AM
Hey Gnarly,
I just caught My first peek at the truck itself. The picture of the load leveler, In the back ground.
I like it a lot. Clean white 1986 ext cab.  :bowdown: Looks Good from what I have seen. Take good care of it your a lucky guy.  :thumbs:
There is something special about them extra cabs. I would love one as a daily driver. 3rz supercharged of coarse.
You know I just might have made a decision on My next daily driver.  :willynilly:

Hey :)bestgen4runner,

Thanks, yeah a looked for an early Toy truck between 1984 and 1988 for over a year. Had to fly to CA to buy this one in 2006. If I had a $10 bill for every Toyota truck I've seen being towed to Mexico (I live 2 hours for the Mexican boarder) I could spend a really nice 7-day vacation in Cabo!

Nice ones that are not hacked up are very rare, at least from my research.

This one is in extremely good condition.... and all stock! It even has orginal, rims, seats, interior, and rear bench screw-down knobs!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 31, 2016, 04:55:05 AM
Update: 10-31-2016

Installed tranny and t-case yesterday.  I remember the first time I did a clutch job on my '85. I did it without a tranny jack!!... used a couple bottle jacks, blocks of wood, and some tie-down straps. I was stronger back then, and I wrestled that dang thing for quite awhile. I cannot image R&R'ing a tranny and t-case without a tranny jack. I bought it many years ago from Harbor Freight for $50 - best $50 tool I own.

Since I only replaced the driver side motor mount with a dealer one, my engine is tilted about 2 or 3 degrees towards the passenger side. I don't like it, so I will have to buy an new motor mount for the passenger side to hopefully get it level horizontally again.

I still have to order my new copper radiator.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 17, 2016, 10:18:04 AM
UPDATE:  11-17-2016

I am moving forward slowly and want to be careful and make this rebuild project as successful as possible.

My truck has been sitting and stored for 3 years and 11 months. I am concerned that the gas that was in the tank (I believe it is empty now) has dried up and left nasty residue.  I imagine this tank is the original – 1986 – over 30 years old.

I know that the shelf life in a gas tank is around 3 months.

I do not want to put fresh gas into this tank and risk rust, sludge, and any particles that may plug up my freshly refurbished injectors, or causing any issues when I fire this rebuilt engine.

I have not removed or replaced a gas tank in any of my Toyota truck.

I am considering removing it and cleaning it with one of a number of fuel tank cleaning products.  I am also considering buying new fuel tank and replacing it.

I did some research on the net and viewed several videos on cleaning and removing gas tanks.

Has anyone of you guys cleaned or removed the gas tank on a Toyota truck?

Any comments, suggestions, or shared experiences will be appreciated.

Thank you,

Gnarls
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Nov 17, 2016, 11:24:50 AM
Find a radiator shop and drop off your tank. Should be about $75 bucks for them to clean it and line it. I did that with a place called Mac's radiator in Portland if you're interested in taking to someone about the process.

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Nov 17, 2016, 12:25:22 PM
You might be a bit over concerned. I have brought several vehicles back from the dead. Many have been sitting longer than Your truck.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 17, 2016, 01:39:17 PM
You might be a bit over concerned. I have brought several vehicles back from the dead. Many have been sitting longer than Your truck.


Hi :)bestgen4runner,

Yes, I do suffer sometimes from H.A.S. (Hyper Analytical Syndrome).... however, I just don't want to deal with anything fuel related, especially out of a rusty or crusty gas tank.  I had an issue with a gas tank in my past and it was a very bad experience.

A new tank is between $110 and $250 dollars.  I do NOT want to remove it because I think it will be a bear to get out and back in.  Since it most likely has the original fuel pump, I am thinking of replacing it at the same time.

I am already way over my projected budget, but I do NOT want to FUBAR this project for the sake of saving a few hundred dollars!  My "desire" to work on my truck and be the garage-monkey I was for many years is disappearing like a roll of toilet paper at a Chili Cook-Off!  :yikes:  :laugh:

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Nov 17, 2016, 01:46:54 PM
Take a look at Your tank, It very likely has a drain plug at the bottom. You could put a few gallons of fuel in then drain the tank and take a look.
You might have to remove the skid plate (easy) to access the drain plug.
Similar to this tank.  http://www.justanswer.com/toyota/4rz8u-toyota-previa-reg-drain-plug-the-fuel-tank-seal.html
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Nov 17, 2016, 01:57:03 PM
You may be able to clean it out in place.

The easiest way is to get to the fuel pump is to lift the bed off the frame.........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Nov 17, 2016, 02:20:43 PM
It's just not that bad to drop the tank or remove the bed.  I would get it loose and inspect it inside.  It's probably not that bad in there but you won't know unless you look.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 18, 2016, 02:42:02 AM
Take a look at Your tank, It very likely has a drain plug at the bottom. You could put a few gallons of fuel in then drain the tank and take a look.
You might have to remove the skid plate (easy) to access the drain plug.
Similar to this tank.  http://www.justanswer.com/toyota/4rz8u-toyota-previa-reg-drain-plug-the-fuel-tank-seal.html

I will pull the skid plate and see if there is a drain plug.  If there is, I can partially fill the tank some white vinegar and see what comes out.  If there is no drain plug, I might still be able to fill the tank and pump out the liquid, although if there are any rust particles, I don't think I can pump them out.

I may end up replacing the tank and the fuel pump... but then I have to research the quality of those parts that are available.  With so many "junk" aftermarket parts, I'm concerned about getting parts that are worse than the Toyota original.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 18, 2016, 02:44:07 AM
You may be able to clean it out in place.

The easiest way is to get to the fuel pump is to lift the bed off the frame.........

Has anyone replaced the fuel pump without removing the bed?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Nov 18, 2016, 02:47:19 AM
Has anyone replaced the fuel pump without removing the bed?

Gnarls.
Drop the tank. After the skid plate is off, it's 6 bolts, 2 vent lines and a high pressure line. Honestly, I've done it so many times, it's easier to drop the tank to clean it than to try to do it while it's stationary on the truck.

I've also removed and bolted my bed on about as many times.

Drop the tank. Way easier plus you can roll media around inside of it if you need to clean it out

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 18, 2016, 02:50:14 AM
It's just not that bad to drop the tank or remove the bed.  I would get it loose and inspect it inside.  It's probably not that bad in there but you won't know unless you look.

I envision some wiring to disconnect or cut.  How heavy is the bed?  Then, there are some rubber grommets that may need to be replaced?  Geezzz... the number of expense rows in my spreadsheet keeps growing!!!  :smack:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 18, 2016, 02:54:25 AM
Drop the tank. After the skid plate is off, it's 6 bolts, 2 vent lines and a high pressure line. Honestly, I've done it so many times, it's easier to drop the tank to clean it than to try to do it while it's stationary on the truck.

I've also removed and bolted my bed on about as many times.

Drop the tank. Way easier plus you can roll media around inside of it if you need to clean it out

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk




Hey ExCabSwap,

OK, that sounds good - thank you.  I'll drop the tank and check it out.  Yeah, I viewed some DIYers on Youtube cleaning old gas tanks.  It may not be all that bad.  Should I replace the fuel pump while its dropped?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Nov 18, 2016, 02:56:03 AM
Let's say you get the bed off. Then you take the fuel pump hanger out and look in there and see a few flakes.. or something you don't want in there. How are you going to put anything inside and swash it around?

Also, the bolts holding the bed on could just as likely be rusted solid. Which means you'll have to sawzall ...

But also, taking the bed off would be a great opportunity to address the frame. Might as well coat the frame with bedliner while you're at it

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Nov 18, 2016, 02:56:53 AM
Oops just saw your response after i finished posting my last one

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Nov 18, 2016, 02:59:01 AM
It took 3 of us to lift the bed off my friend's (90 something) ford ranger.     Toyota bed should be about the same.    If I recall correctly, there's 4 attachments for the bed...

The advantage of taking the bed off is you can test everything before completing re-assembly.....
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Nov 18, 2016, 03:01:06 AM
At a minimum, I'd replace the pickup sock..............

Fuel Pump............ old well built toyota pump vs new (made in china) pump...........   I'd stay with the old pump.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Nov 18, 2016, 07:19:28 AM
Only Pump to buy is one from your Toyota dealer. The rest so so....
There is a high pressure line connection at the fuel pump that I have had lots of trouble with over the years. Be very carefull with the steel
line side of that connection. I prefer to remove the bed Because of this line and the lack of space to work with. The Nut that tightens the flare has a tendency to not want to spin on the line and the line will start to twist. This line runs from the tank to the engine. No body wants to replace that line.  :shakehead:
I have no experience with the aftermarket brand of fuel tanks but suspect they will not compare to the Toyota quality. (quality of steel, thickness of the steel, corrosion protection)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 18, 2016, 10:18:14 AM
Only Pump to buy is one from your Toyota dealer. The rest so so....
There is a high pressure line connection at the fuel pump that I have had lots of trouble with over the years. Be very carefull with the steel
line side of that connection. I prefer to remove the bed Because of this line and the lack of space to work with. The Nut that tightens the flare has a tendency to not want to spin on the line and the line will start to twist. This line runs from the tank to the engine. No body wants to replace that line.  :shakehead:
I have no experience with the aftermarket brand of fuel tanks but suspect they will not compare to the Toyota quality. (quality of steel, thickness of the steel, corrosion protection)

Ok... good stuff!!

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 27, 2016, 10:46:14 AM
UPDATE:  11-27-16

Never having drained a gas tank that sat for 4 years, I didn’t know what to expect.

6 bolts to drop the skid plate on the gas tank.  The drain plug was not leaking but surprisingly loose!

I placed my very handy **  https://www.lowes.com/pd/MacCourt-Drywall-Mud-Pans/1054711  **  under the tank and placed a 1 gallon plastic Ice tea jug with a large funnel inside it.  Tapping the tank it sounded empty, but it was not.

I left the gas cap on the filler neck, so the gas came out of the tank slowly, which allowed me to switch 6 jugs while it emptied.  So it only had about 6 ½ gallons of gasoline.

The gas was really stinky, but clean looking and zero residue or particles.

:)bestgen4runner was right, I was overly concerned, but I was prepared for the worst and hoping for the best.  So I had the tank drained, the greasy skid plate cleaned, and back on it a couple hours.

I hope to have my new motor mounts and radiator here by end of this week, my drive shafts installed, and the engine wired up by end of next week.  If I haven’t fired the engine by Christmas I’ll be disappointed, but it will then be my New Year’s resolution!

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Slabzilla on Nov 27, 2016, 05:18:50 PM
Glad you found how easy it was to just drain and check instead of all that labor of tank removal (which was your best other option). Nice work so far. :thumbs:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 01, 2016, 01:57:21 PM
UPDATE 12-1-2016

My motor mounts, disty o'rings, plug wire clips are on their way.  I picked up a radiator today.  I decided to try the aluminum and plastic caps  It's very light and the aluminum fins bend really easy.  I was only $79.42, so it is several hundred dollars less than the copper replacement.  I has 3 year warranty. I have never bought an aluminum radiator so I'm hoping this was a good decision and it cools like the copper version. :greengrin:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 11, 2016, 01:33:56 PM
UPDATE 12-11-16

I used my handy dandy Harbor Freight shop crane to lift my engine a little to remove and replace the motor mounts with the ones I bought from 22RE Performance.

I have attached some photos with some measurements.  The one with the crack is the one that I believe is the factory stock mount. The one on the passenger side did not have any delamination.  The driver side mount gets almost all of the torque and pull.

I looked at motor mounts from Autozone and O’Reilly. Autozone’s was junk, O’Rielly’s holes, center to center, where WAY off.

My new Toyoto Factory mount from top of stud to bottom of 2-bolt flange is 0.227” shorter than the replacement from 22RE Performance.  Although the 2-bolt mounting flange on 22RE Performance’s mount is .034” thinner than the factory flange, it looks like it should be strong enough.  The good news is that the bolt holes in 22RE’s mount matches the factory flange

The Toyota dealer wanted $300+ for a pair of motor mounts, but they include the steel mount cover and the motor bracket, which do NOT break or wear out!!!

Here's 22RE's motor mount:  http://22reperformance.com/parts/installation-parts.html

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Dec 11, 2016, 08:24:35 PM
I did this for my motor mounts, http://www.yotatech.com/f123/22re-polyurethane-engine-mounts-232595/

More vibrations don't bother me, my truck is already loud inside and needs more work if I wanted it to be comfortable for others.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 11, 2016, 09:50:48 PM
I thought you used the Marlin method of putting a bolt thru the mount..........


 :dunno:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 11, 2016, 10:33:22 PM
I thought you used the Marlin method of putting a bolt thru the mount..........


 :dunno:

Bolt thru the mount?  :dunno:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 11, 2016, 10:39:06 PM
Example:

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100581.msg1122861#msg1122861
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 12, 2016, 03:06:10 AM
I did this for my motor mounts, http://www.yotatech.com/f123/22re-polyurethane-engine-mounts-232595/

More vibrations don't bother me, my truck is already loud inside and needs more work if I wanted it to be comfortable for others.


Hey Mudder,

If I had known about this motor mount option, I might have saved myself $85 or $90!  It's too late for me, but this looks like a great tip for anyone else ready to replace their motor mounts.

Because I learned that the engine may not sit level by just replacing one of the mounts, I would recommend always replacing both mounts with the same new motor mounts.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 12, 2016, 03:11:16 AM
Example:

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=100581.msg1122861#msg1122861

Hey emsvitil,

This would work for someone who has the time and tools to do the modification.  This will greatly reduce the flexibility of the mount and probably induce vibrations and noise to the frame rail.  This option would be WAY down on my list of replacement options.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 18, 2016, 07:41:17 AM
Easiest for mine was to attach the motor mounts to the block first.
Also, do you have any need of that bad motor mount? Any interest of getting rid of it?


Hey ExCabSwap,

I learned that if motor mounts need to be replaced, better to replace both at the same time.  When I had to place a broken driver's side on my 1985 22R shortbed while wheeling in Moab, the aftermarket one that I had to file to get the holes to line up, did not tilt the engine over?  So when I replace the driver's side this time, I didn't think about it making the engine rotate to the passenger side about 4 or 5 degrees - not level.

As I posted, I have replaced both mounts now. 

If you want the two old motor mounts, let me know.  If you want to pay for shipping to you, they're yours.  They look factory, and probably original mounts.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Dec 18, 2016, 03:34:43 PM
Has this engine started yet?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 18, 2016, 05:33:13 PM
Has this engine started yet?

No
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Dec 18, 2016, 10:53:42 PM
Hey ExCabSwap,

I learned that if motor mounts need to be replaced, better to replace both at the same time.  When I had to place a broken driver's side on my 1985 22R shortbed while wheeling in Moab, the aftermarket one that I had to file to get the holes to line up, did not tilt the engine over?  So when I replace the driver's side this time, I didn't think about it making the engine rotate to the passenger side about 4 or 5 degrees - not level.

As I posted, I have replaced both mounts now. 

If you want the two old motor mounts, let me know.  If you want to pay for shipping to you, they're yours.  They look factory, and probably original mounts.

Gnarls.
I'll send you a message 👍

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 19, 2016, 05:52:17 AM
Update 12-19-2016

HOT TIP:  Mount and bolt the tranny cross member up BEFORE you tighten down any bolts on the motor mounts.

The needle on my project is moving forward, but slowly... way slower than I had imagined.

I got the drive shafts cleaned from 30+ years of crude, and pumped the U-joints full of fresh grease.   I should have the exhaust mounted and wiring finished by Friday. I'm really hoping to fire this engine before the end of December.  *fingers crossed*.

Mentally I'm struggling with the wiring and getting it all routed and plugged in correctly!

Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda...... taken more photos or videos!!  :smack:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 27, 2016, 03:03:17 AM
Off the wall question…

My truck has been parked in my garage for 4 years.  I’ve never stored a vehicle for 4 years.  :shake:

I kept the tires aired up to 45 PSI.  Will the flat spots on the tires recover after driving it for a few miles…. Or could the flat spots be permanent?  The tires are fairly low mileage Michelin 31” LTX M/S, about 5 years old.  :dunno:

Has anyone experienced the result of long storage of a vehicle sitting on tires?  :-\

Thanks,

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 27, 2016, 03:50:01 AM
They should recover as the tire warms up........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Dec 27, 2016, 07:05:14 AM
Off the wall question…

My truck has been parked in my garage for 4 years.  I’ve never stored a vehicle for 4 years.  :shake:

I kept the tires aired up to 45 PSI.  Will the flat spots on the tires recover after driving it for a few miles…. Or could the flat spots be permanent?  The tires are fairly low mileage Michelin 31” LTX M/S, about 5 years old.  :dunno:

Has anyone experienced the result of long storage of a vehicle sitting on tires?  :-\

Thanks,

Gnarls. :inthedark:


? has this engine rebuild really been going on for 4 years ?
Did something happen to delay the process? Health, Family, Work, Zombie Apocalypse, alien invasion, preperations for potential invasion or Apocalypse?
I know you have stated your anal about your projects, But 4 years is a long time.  :_oops:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 27, 2016, 10:07:57 AM
? has this engine rebuild really been going on for 4 years ?
Did something happen to delay the process? Health, Family, Work, Zombie Apocalypse, alien invasion, preperations for potential invasion or Apocalypse?
I know you have stated your anal about your projects, But 4 years is a long time.  :_oops:

LOL.... started this rebuild project *see post 1*.

Delays were caused by all of those listed, plus over-runs on projected budget!!  Also, I'm slower than average - possibly too anal.

I didn't thoroughly research this before I started and was committed.  I hope to share my "fubar" to help anyone else that may want to tackle a rebuild like this and to the degree I have decided to complete it.

I am not as aggressive about getting this done as I should be and it bothers me at this point, but I'm hoping to have it fired up right after New Years.  Shortly after I started the project, I had an unexpected and significant financial hit, otherwise I'd be finished by now.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Dec 27, 2016, 07:48:52 PM
Finally read your entire write up.  Nice.  Reminds me of when I swapped motors, and all the trials and errors I went thru.     :thumbs:



All that work I did, only to have the engine builder put in a crappy harmonic balancer that leaks oil.  I still have to order a new one from 22RE. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 28, 2016, 12:33:19 AM
Finally read your entire write up.  Nice.  Reminds me of when I swapped motors, and all the trials and errors I went thru.     :thumbs:

All that work I did, only to have the engine builder put in a crappy harmonic balancer that leaks oil.  I still have to order a new one from 22RE. 

Hi Cheesemaker,

Thanks.  Yeah… like most of us, I have read hundreds and hundreds of posts on Toyota rebuilds and swaps. Most have lots of discussions about what went wrong.. “trials and errors”.  So it seems to me doing a quality and successful rebuild on a 20/22 isn’t necessarily a walk in the park, even for the “experts”.  The thing is, because these engines have a legendary reputation for reliability and longevity, the average DIYer doesn’t get much practice.

Since 1986 I have talked to a good number of “rebuilders” (engbldr, 22RE Performance, LCE, etc), local shops, and the guys who have tackled a rebuild. I have searched on the internet for most of the main or popular suppliers of short blocks, long blocks, turn-key, and pulled from wrecks engines, and aftermarket parts suppliers (e.g. camshaft suppliers).  For this rebuild, at the end of the day I decided I had too many concerns, and decided to try it myself, even with my lack of experience.

The help from all the folks that have posted their experiences and knowledge on these forums over the last 15+ years has been invaluable to me.  Of course, the information and opinions can range from total Bravo Sierra to pure genius.

After I get this engine fired and some mileage on my truck, I will post a summary of my rebuild experience.

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 10, 2017, 03:29:11 AM
UPDATE:  2-10-2017

The delays in getting this engine fired is frustrating.  Family issues are a priority, but I am not working at this project hard enough.  :hammerhead:   .... I think old age makes me lazy! :thumbdown:  :shake:

Yesterday I was trying to figure out all the connections in the wire harness and discovered the wire to the Coolant Temp Sensor connector was broken.  It was only holding with 1 copper strand - don't know why Toyota could not have made the wire gauge just a tad bigger?

After finding zero aftermarket options, I emailed Jerry at 22RE Performance, and he instantly replied - gotta love that extraordinary customer service!! - there is NO connector and NO wire harnesses are available. :suprised:

He suggested taking the contact out of the plastic body to solder a new wire. I looked at it carefully and decided trying remove the metal contact would most likely destroy the very crytalized plastic housing and break the thin metal contact.

So I took a very sharp knife, and VERY carefully scraped off the 30 year old insulation around the end of the broken wire.  I soldered on a new wire, and had to drill a larger hole in the little black seal cap to avoid pushing hard against the metal contact tab as I slid it down the wire and into the connector, and only inserted it partially into the top of connector body - I didn't want to break the little metal contact tab that the wire was connected to.  I used some Ultra Black to seal it back up.

I will slip some heat shrink tubing on the wire and solder the pigtail onto the broken wire harness wire.

This is one of the main reasons why I decided to do this rebuild myself.... God only knows what a "shop" would have done with this part??

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Feb 10, 2017, 07:17:24 AM
I had to do the same exact thing to mine years ago.   But I got the pin out, and soldered it up, and reinstalled it.  But I did put 2 layers of heat shrink around the wire where it comes out of the plug.  I also did the same for a buddy too once! 

Those cheap little picks helps alot in situations like this.  That is how I got the pin out. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Feb 10, 2017, 07:37:17 AM
Good job.  This is why I like to save every harness out of every parts truck I can, even burnt or butchered ones.  Those extra plugs come in really handy.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 10, 2017, 08:40:55 AM
UPDATE:  2-10-2017

The delays in getting this engine fired is frustrating.  Family issues are a priority, but I am not working at this project hard enough.  :hammerhead:   .... I think old age makes me lazy! :thumbdown:  :shake:

Yesterday I was trying to figure out all the connections in the wire harness and discovered the wire to the Coolant Temp Sensor connector was broken.  It was only holding with 1 copper strand - don't know why Toyota could not have made the wire gauge just a tad bigger?

After finding zero aftermarket options, I emailed Jerry at 22RE Performance, and he instantly replied - gotta love that extraordinary customer service!! - there is NO connector and NO wire harnesses are available. :suprised:

He suggested taking the contact out of the plastic body to solder a new wire. I looked at it carefully and decided trying remove the metal contact would most likely destroy the very crytalized plastic housing and break the thin metal contact.

So I took a very sharp knife, and VERY carefully scraped off the 30 year old insulation around the end of the broken wire.  I soldered on a new wire, and had to drilled a larger hole in the little black seal cap to avoid pushing hard against the metal contact tab as I slid it down the wire and into the connector, and only inserted it partially into the top of connector body - I didn't want to break the little metal contact tab that the wire was connected to.  I used some Ultra Black to seal it back up.

I will slip some heat shrink tubing on the wire and solder the pigtail onto the broken wire harness wire.

This is one of the main reasons why I decided to do this rebuild myself.... God only knows what a "shop" would have done with this part??

Gnarls. :spin:
The question is, do You know what that sensor is and what it does?
I challenge you Gnarls.....
Don't disappoint me, And be careful its not what you think it is. (Hint)
Mine has been deleted. (Hint) If it came in to the Chevron I would have explained what it is, what it does, and your options.
"Extra credit" If you explain how that system works and what it affects.
 :working: (Best of Luck)
BestGen,
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 10, 2017, 10:30:48 AM
The question is, do You know what that sensor is and what it does?
I challenge you Gnarls.....
Don't disappoint me, And be careful its not what you think it is. (Hint)
Mine has been deleted. (Hint) If it came in to the Chevron I would have explained what it is, what it does, and your options.
"Extra credit" If you explain how that system works and what it affects.
 :working: (Best of Luck)
BestGen,

OK, to make a SWAG...

I'd say that sensor detects a range of coolant temperature. It will send data, probably registers a range of low voltage, and tells the ECU to change or correct engine idle, A/F, and ignition timing.

If it fails, the ECU will throw a check engine light?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 10, 2017, 10:44:42 AM
OK, to make a SWAG...

I'd say that sensor detects a range of coolant temperature. It will send data, probably registers a range of low voltage, and tells the ECU to change or correct engine idle, A/F, and ignition timing.

If it fails, the ECU will throw a check engine light?

Gnarls.
Strike #1  :therethere:
Do Some research before you try again.
I will Give you a small amount of credit. It is a sensor and it does measure temp.
Come on, I have great fait in You.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 10, 2017, 12:41:05 PM
Strike #1  :therethere:
Do Some research before you try again.
I will Give you a small amount of credit. It is a sensor and it does measure temp.
Come on, I have great fait in You.

Holy Crapity!! :yikes:

Do you grade on a curve, and is this an open book test??  :red_eyes:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 10, 2017, 12:48:40 PM
Holy Crapity!! :yikes:

Do you grade on a curve, and is this an open book test??  :red_eyes:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Ok, I will make it easier for You. What is it called and what is its job. Accurate answer please.
Another hint, (NO its not the coolant temp sensor).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Feb 10, 2017, 01:29:30 PM
Ok, I will make it easier for You. What is it called and what is its job. Accurate answer please.
Another hint, (NO its not the coolant temp sensor).

Is that sensor used with the VSV on the top/rear of the engine to modify the fuel pressure during hot conditions. It increases the fuel pressure during "Hot Soak Conditions" (coolant temp above 230dF) so "As a result, sufficient fuel delivery is guaranteed for smooth and proper engine speed."
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 10, 2017, 01:36:09 PM
I have never hear of this before?
Are you talking about the one on the valve cover (electric operated)?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Feb 10, 2017, 02:58:18 PM
I have never hear of this before?
Are you talking about the one on the valve cover (electric operated)?

This is where I found it labeled as such http://www.yankeetoys.org/KLF/EPCDiags/22RE-EFISensors.pdf
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 10, 2017, 03:08:47 PM
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=47333.0
Its a mystery? Lol
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 10, 2017, 06:33:59 PM
This is where I found it labeled as such http://www.yankeetoys.org/KLF/EPCDiags/22RE-EFISensors.pdf

Nice find Mudder!

I am a long way from an ECU wizard, and have only spent a little time reading the EFI System in the FSM over the years.. mostly just to solve a sensor issue, test procedure, or connections.

The question of what this sensor or switch, or whatever it does, I cannot find it labeled or identified by description in my 1986 FSM.  I did find it labeled on page FI-27 under a list of symbols that identify the terminals on the connectors on the ECU.

After a little bit of research on the Google, I could NOT find any explanation for this 22RE sensor.  It is obviously measuring cool temperature before and after the thermostat opens. Now that I see that it is labeled as the Fuel Pressure Up Switch, if I had to make a wild guess I think it tells the ECU to send more or less fuel to the injectors and/or the cold start injector… probably at a cold start.  The word “switch” probably implies an “on-off” function.  The FSM indicates it is only on the 4 wheel drive vehicles, which just adds to my questions about the “what, why, and how” ??

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 10, 2017, 06:43:38 PM

I have never hear of this before?


Hey =:)bestgen4runner,

If YOU have not heard of the FPU Switch, how in the heck do you expect ME to know about it.....

I am "Grasshopper" to you  :bowdown: "Master Po"!!

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 10, 2017, 11:11:44 PM
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=47333.0
Its a mystery? Lol

You found my almost 9 year old post.........

And the answer is...........

 :dunno:


I'm currently out of town without truck....

When cold, is the switch open or closed?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 11, 2017, 01:50:22 AM
You found my almost 9 year old post.........

And the answer is...........

 :dunno:


I'm currently out of town without truck....

When cold, is the switch open or closed?

IF the switch increases fuel pressure, it would most likely do it when the engine is cold.... so the switch would be CLOSED at cold temps.  If the thermostat is rated 180 degrees, it is fully open at 180 degrees, and the FPU Switch would be seeing 180d F coolant.... somewhere around there the switch will OPEN - no more need for extra fuel pressure.  BUT... the FPU Switch might be set to open at a specific coolant temperature near the thermostat?

I'm not sure WHY the switch is only on 4 Wheel Drive vehicles??

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 11, 2017, 03:05:54 AM
My thoughts on the switch....

It closes at higher temp to raise the fuel pressure.

The idea being that there will be less likelihood of vapor lock with higher fuel pressure when crawling in 4wd.

Higher fuel pressure will also lower the AF ratio which also would have a cooling effect on the engine.

Then finally,   I know that an 86 came with a 1-wire O2 sensor.     So it's possible that at idle speed the engine reverts to open-loop mode and the ECU won't correct for the slightly richer mixture.   (I had an idle problem when that happened and retro-fitted a heated O2 sensor to fix the idle (which might mean this switch won't do anything on my engine because the ECU always has an O2 signal (or the ECU goes to open-loop anyway )))  ???


Then if that's true, does the ECU only raise fuel pressure if you're in 4WD.......
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 11, 2017, 06:15:27 AM
My thoughts on the switch....

It closes at higher temp to raise the fuel pressure.

The idea being that there will be less likelihood of vapor lock with higher fuel pressure when crawling in 4wd.

Higher fuel pressure will also lower the AF ratio which also would have a cooling effect on the engine.

Then finally,   I know that an 86 came with a 1-wire O2 sensor.     So it's possible that at idle speed the engine reverts to open-loop mode and the ECU won't correct for the slightly richer mixture.   (I had an idle problem when that happened and retro-fitted a heated O2 sensor to fix the idle (which might mean this switch won't do anything on my engine because the ECU always has an O2 signal (or the ECU goes to open-loop anyway )))  ???


Then if that's true, does the ECU only raise fuel pressure if you're in 4WD.......

That kinda makes sense... But...what does 4-wheel drive have to do with vapor lock?  And... what regulates fuel pump pressure?  And... where in the EFI system would the fuel pressure need to be regulated?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 11, 2017, 01:09:29 PM
Coolant temperature switches are normally "open" and close at a specific temperature -- between 200 and 240d F.  So if the coolant reaches that temperature the switch closes and sends a voltage to the ECU and that, according to the Fuel Pressure Up description, would increase the fuel pump pressure.  Exactly WHY more fuel pressure is required, I can only guess at this point.

I don't know if the 22RE is return or returnless fuel system?  If its a return system, I believe the fuel can be heated and will flow back into the gas tank... that may have something to do with the fuel pressure up requirement.

I'm just speculating...

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 11, 2017, 02:16:40 PM
It's a return style system.
I think you might be wrong still on what the coolant temp switch does.
Look into a/c coolant temp cut switch and you might find the answers.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 11, 2017, 04:07:24 PM
The fuel pressure regulator has a vacuum reference on it.

More vacuum, less fuel pressure.  (So at WOT, you get more fuel pressure)

There's a vacuum bleed off solenoid.    The ECU would trigger the bleed off solenoid.   Then the fuel pressure regulator would raise the pressure like it does at WOT (even though it's not at WOT)

With 4wd, you don't get as much airflow in the engine compartment and can get more heat buildup.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 11, 2017, 06:41:39 PM
Is this speculation or do you have the facts?

The fuel pressure regulator has a vacuum reference on it.

More vacuum, less fuel pressure.  (So at WOT, you get more fuel pressure)

There's a vacuum bleed off solenoid.    The ECU would trigger the bleed off solenoid.   Then the fuel pressure regulator would raise the pressure like it does at WOT (even though it's not at WOT)

With 4wd, you don't get as much airflow in the engine compartment and can get more heat buildup.


I’m having trouble getting my head around this Fpu function.   Since the Fpu switch is not described or showing any tests in my 1986 FSM, it must not be a very important function??

While I do believe the switch is measuring coolant temperature...  Please explain how “With 4wd you don’t get as much airflow in the engine compartment and can more heat buildup.”?

It does appear that since the FSM indicates the Fpu is only on 4 wheel drive vehicles, there must be something that the ECU is looking for when the truck is put into 4WD?....  What is it?

Does anyone really know exactly what it does and why?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 11, 2017, 06:58:34 PM
Some more info:

This is about the VSV  (what I was calling the solenoid)

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/what-is-this-part-and-what-is-its-purpose.587302/


Still don't know the full reasoning, and why only 4wd......
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 11, 2017, 07:02:35 PM
even more:

http://4x4wire.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/739989/site_id/1#import
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 12, 2017, 02:36:36 AM
It's a return style system.
I think you might be wrong still on what the coolant temp switch does.
Look into a/c coolant temp cut switch and you might find the answers.


Typically the switch that turns off the AC compressor is when the refrigerant gets too low, so compressor doesn't burn up.

But what does that have to do with the vehicle being in 4 wheel drive?

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 12, 2017, 03:05:33 AM
even more:

http://4x4wire.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/739989/site_id/1#import

I read the whole thread... Roger has contributed so much to the Toyota truck people!!  But does that thread explain the function of the Fpu switch on a 4 wheel drive vehicle?

Logically if the Fpu switch is located between thermostat and the radiator, it is looking for coolant temperature before the thermostat opens.  If it is a switch, and sending voltage back to the ECU, then the ECU is getting either no voltage or some voltage.  So what does the ECU do with no voltage or some voltage?  Increasing fuel pressure for cold starts make sense because higher fuel pressure at the injectors will atomize the fuel better and make better cold start ups.

I still don't understand what that would have to do with a 4 wheel drive vehicle?  It seems that the ECU would only know if the vehicle is in 4 wheel drive if the transfer case has been shifted.  Or does the ECU not really care when its in 4WD and there is something about a 22RE Toyota 4x4 that needs more fuel pressure??

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 16, 2017, 05:55:56 PM
UPDATE:  2-16-17

I’m making some progress….

The flat orange VHT Very High Temperature paint looks good on that manifold!  I used the manifold gasket that came with engbldr's kit.  I spayed it with Permatex High Temp Copper Sealer.

Here’s what I have installed so far after getting engine dropped in and mounted…..

tranny & t-case, with fresh gear lube, both drive shafts, both shifters in,
exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe, power steering pump, A/C compressor.

Left to do or need to install (checklist to myself)

Install O2 sensor in exhaust manifold
Connected gas line to fuel filter
Connect wires to alternator
Connect starter wires
Connect ground straps
Install 3 V-belts
Install fan pulley & fan/fan clutch
Install radiator
Install 3 radiator hoses
Add water distilled water +  quart of coolant
Lube & install distributor – bolt just snug tightened
CONNECT ALL REMAINING WIRES AND CONNECTORS!!!
Install throttle body
Connect ERG tube
Connect vacuum switches
Connect throttle linkage
Tighten center motor mount nuts
Connect two connectors to tranny
Connect all vacuum hoses
Tighten harmonic balance/pulley
Adjust valve lash
Re-lube camshaft
Lube Disty Shaft tip & gear
Lube disty cam gear
Add crankcase oil (Royal Purple break-in oil)
Install Rocker Cover
Mount switches, wire holders on rocker cover
Charge battery
Install battery – leave negative lead off
Pull fuse to injectors
Remove spark plugs
Check power steering fluid
Check brake reservoir fluid
Bleed clutch slave
Connect intake tube to throttle body
Install new air filter
Install new cap & rotor
Locate disty in middle of bolt slot – light tighten
Add 5 gallons of gas to fuel tank

CHECK AND VERIFY EVERYTHING
Check everything again

Connect negative lead to battery
Turn engine over with starter while watching oil pressure.
Install new spark plugs and attach plug wires

IF THERE IS ANYTHING I LEFT OFF, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!

FIRE ENGINE!!

Check engine temperature
Check ignition timing
Inspect for any leaks
Break in camshaft per _____________
Turn off engine let cool down
Check exhaust manifold nuts
Check for leaks
Drain water and add fresh distilled water and 50% Coolant
Re-adjust valve lash

Bleed brakes

Install hood

Fire engine – check voltage at alternator
Re-check ignition timing.

Take it for a short spin!


My plan is to break in this engine, tune the crap out of it.  Drive it for about 2,000 or 3,000 miles.

By then I will have already purchased a Doug Thorley header and 2” exhaust with turbo muffler and new free-flow cat, ready to swap with existing factory exhaust manifold and exhaust.

I will tune the poop out of it.  Have it dyno’d.  Probably the next day or sooner, swap in the DT header and exhaust and have it chassis dyno’d again.

I am curious what the numbers will be with the DT header and larger exhaust.

I plan to drive it another 1,000, maybe 2,000 miles, then swap the engbldr 261 Crawler camshaft for different cam profile.  I haven’t decided on which one I want to test next.  I will tune the poop out it of the engine, install new spark plugs, cap & rotor, and then have it dyno’d again - with the new camshaft - at the same speed shop in Phoenix.

I'm curious to see what a difference, if any, in chassis dyno numbers and what my butt dyno feels. My target is best torque numbers between 2500 and 4500 RPMs, where 95% of my drive time will be.

That’s my plan.  It’s pretty much starting where my plans left off just before I totaled my 1985 22R Shortbed.

Gnarls. :spin:


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 17, 2017, 03:00:19 AM
Gear ratio calculations…

4th gear 1:1 – 31” tires, 4:10 ring & pinion – at 79 MPH  (my freeway speed) = 3511 RPMs

5th gear 0.8:1 – 31” tires, 4:10 ring & pinion – at 79 MPH (my freeway speed) = 2809 RPMs


Gear ratio calculations…

4th gear 1:1 – 31” tires, 4:56 ring & pinion – at 79 MPH  (my freeway speed) = 3905 RPMs

5th gear 0.8:1 – 31” tires, 4:56 ring & pinion – at 79 MPH (my freeway speed) = 3124 RPMs


The peak torque “sweet spot” with this engine rebuild (261C cam+DT header), according to my desktop dyno, is between 3100 to 3300 RPMs (it may be different on the street and when chassis dyno’d)  As Snowtoy pointed out, his butt dyno likes the snappy lower gear ratio.  I may end up spending the money to swap in 4:56 ring & pinions.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 17, 2017, 04:43:30 AM
Gear ratio calculations…

4th gear 1:1 – 31” tires, 4:10 ring & pinion – at 79 MPH  (my freeway speed) = 3862 RPMs

5th gear 0.8:1 – 31” tires, 4:10 ring & pinion – at 79 MPH (my freeway speed) = 2809 RPMs


Gear ratio calculations…

4th gear 1:1 – 31” tires, 4:56 ring & pinion – at 79 MPH  (my freeway speed) = 4396 RPMs

5th gear 0.8:1 – 31” tires, 4:56 ring & pinion – at 79 MPH (my freeway speed) = 3124 RPMs


The peak torque “sweet spot” with this engine rebuild (261C cam+DT header), according to my desktop dyno, is between 3100 to 3300 RPMs (it may be different on the street and when chassis dyno’d)  As Snowtoy pointed out, his butt dyno likes the snappy lower gear ratio.  I may end up spending the money to swap in 4:56 ring & pinions.

Gnarls.


Time for a remedial math class.....


 :yupyup:

3862 * .8 = 3090

4396 * .8 = 3517

3862 * 4.56 / 4.10 = 4295


Are you at least sure about the 3862 ?

 :cheese:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 17, 2017, 05:56:17 AM
Time for a remedial math class.....


 :yupyup:

3862 * .8 = 3090

4396 * .8 = 3517

3862 * 4.56 / 4.10 = 4295


Are you at least sure about the 3862 ?

 :cheese:


Uuuuhhh.... here's what I used...

https://www.ringpinion.com/calculators/Calc_RPM.aspx

and my numbers were off???  Too early in the AM to be doing math.. but I must have plugged into the calculator a typo??

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 19, 2017, 12:12:34 PM
Question on the gasket for the throttle body to intake.....

Do you use any sealant or gasket goop, or just go with the bare gasket?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 19, 2017, 04:26:38 PM
I made some good progress today.  I thought I had all the wires, connectors, and hoses accounted for, THEN I found this! It comes out of the main harness.

I don’t have any idea where it goes - IF it was connected to something.

The inside of the contacts looks like it was NOT connected to anything.

Does anyone know what this wire is for?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 19, 2017, 04:31:31 PM
Question on the gasket for the throttle body to intake.....

Do you use any sealant or gasket goop, or just go with the bare gasket?

Thanks,

Gnarls.



Thanks again :)bestgen4runner for your quick reply!  :smooch: :gap:

Gnarls.  :D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Feb 19, 2017, 07:26:46 PM
I used the paper gasket that came with the original kit that came with my motor for the intake.


That connector on my 87 is for the temp gauge.  There is another one, that is T-shaped that goes to nothing for me. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 19, 2017, 07:45:39 PM
Question on the gasket for the throttle body to intake.....

Do you use any sealant or gasket goop, or just go with the bare gasket?

Thanks,

Gnarls.



Hylomar on paper gasket.....
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 19, 2017, 08:43:40 PM
I made some good progress today.  I thought I had all the wires, connectors, and hoses accounted for, THEN I found this! It comes out of the main harness.

I don’t have any idea where it goes - IF it was connected to something.

The inside of the contacts looks like it was NOT connected to anything.

Does anyone know what this wire is for?

Thanks,

Gnarls.


I took a look at mine for you tonight. I have one connector in that area that goes to nothing. It is a two pin connector. I believe the one I have is for the addition of A/C. The only one I found that has a connector like
yours goes to the temp gauge sender. The wire color is Yellow with a green stripe for the temp sensor on Mine.
Hope that helps you.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 19, 2017, 09:55:55 PM
Final info that I could find on a previous subject.
If you ever see this book for sale, buy it eminently. It was given to me by a long time Chevron tech about 10 years ago when He retired. Theory and operation of 80's fuel injection systems. Knowledge that is lost forever.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Feb 19, 2017, 10:47:35 PM
I made some good progress today.  I thought I had all the wires, connectors, and hoses accounted for, THEN I found this! It comes out of the main harness.

I don’t have any idea where it goes - IF it was connected to something.

The inside of the contacts looks like it was NOT connected to anything.

Does anyone know what this wire is for?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
It is the one of those LFRE connectors that all Toyota's have.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 20, 2017, 12:19:58 AM
The 2-wire connector could be for a VSV idle up that's used with AC
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 20, 2017, 02:45:10 AM
Final info that I could find on a previous subject.
If you ever see this book for sale, buy it eminently. It was given to me by a long time Chevron tech about 10 years ago when He retired. Theory and operation of 80's fuel injection systems. Knowledge that is lost forever.


I found this book on Amazon for $12.00 this morning.  Bought IT!!  There was only ONE left.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 20, 2017, 02:56:42 AM
It is the one of those LFRE connectors that all Toyota's have.

LFRE...?????  Left For Rebuilder's Enjoyment???

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 20, 2017, 04:09:06 AM
Well, since I can't find anything to connect the bugger to, I'll just let it hang out and see what happens after I fire the engine?  :dunno:

Thank you all for the "input".  :beerchug:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Feb 20, 2017, 10:42:21 AM
LFRE...?????  Left For Rebuilder's Enjoyment???

Gnarls.
In polite terms, yes.:D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 22, 2017, 10:17:05 AM
I took a look at mine for you tonight. I have one connector in that area that goes to nothing. It is a two pin connector. I believe the one I have is for the addition of A/C. The only one I found that has a connector like
yours goes to the temp gauge sender. The wire color is Yellow with a green stripe for the temp sensor on Mine.
Hope that helps you.

Hey :)bestgen4runner!

Well... I feel like a ree-tard!!... and hate to post my guilt-ridden incompetence on a public forum..... But if I save some other dummy from doing what I did and not look really good at all the "sensors and crap" as you are re-connecting the wires in the harness, I won't feel so badly.

I bought one these because my legs were killing me bending over engine on tip toes!!

http://www.harborfreight.com/step-stool-working-platform-66911.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiMTE0MzcxNjEiLCJza3UiOiI2NjkxMSIsImlzIjoiMTkuOTkiLCJwcm9kdWN0X2lk%0D%0AIjoiNDQ3MCJ9%0D%0A

I woke up early this morning thinking that dang connector should be connected!   I re-read your post, re-looked at my photos (should have taken WAY more!!), and I flashed back to the other day when I was connecting the harness, and didn't remember seeing it. Must have looked all over that engine at least 3 or 4 different times!!

This morning I got on my new step tool so I could get a straight look down on the engine and there it was!! ... unconnected.... HOLY HOT CA-CA you dummy!@!!  It sits between injector #2 and #3, and if you don't look straight down on the engine, you can't see it.

Sure enough, you were right on... its a single yellow wire with a green stripe, very faded.

LFRE mystery connector solved!!

HOT TIP:  photograph all sensor locations - make list of all sensors/senders/switches on the block, intake manifold, and throttle body so when you get ready to re-connect them, you have a check off list.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 22, 2017, 06:23:58 PM
I had to cut this hose (I think its a Fuel Return Hose) off as I raised the engine from the bay as I was pulling it.  I now have to insert a duel barbed connector, insert a piece of new soft fuel hose, in order to get it connected to the 1/4" nipple on the damper connected to the injector rail.  The hose is very very hard... no doubt the original hose.  I even tried my super hot water trick to soften it, but it remained too hard to push over the nipple.

I'm not sure yet what smaller hose that attaches to the smaller nipple on the front face of the damper.

Has anyone experienced this issue?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Feb 22, 2017, 06:28:42 PM
Fuel return hose.

The one on the diaphragm is a vacuum line.    Should connect to a VSV before manifold vacuum. (remember the discussion on the mystery 4wd thermal switch......)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 22, 2017, 06:32:36 PM
Fuel return hose.

The one on the diaphragm is a vacuum line.    Should connect to a VSV before manifold vacuum. (remember the discussion on the mystery 4wd thermal switch......)

OK, I will check to see what hose attaches to the smaller nipple tomorrow morning.

Thank you.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 23, 2017, 04:40:03 PM
I made a little more progress today... adjusted valve lash, installed V-belts, attached fan.

Just to make sure, :)bestgen4runner, I think the black larger gauge wire is the ground wire, but I can't remember where it was bolted to the engine?

I think it was bolted to the top bolt of the driver's side motor mount to block.

Where is your's bolted??

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Feb 23, 2017, 08:17:15 PM
My truck is parked at a customer's house so I can't look at it until Saturday.
It goes to the block for sure
I have seen it bolted to the engine mount and the power steering bracket.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 24, 2017, 03:25:17 AM
My truck is parked at a customer's house so I can't look at it until Saturday.
It goes to the block for sure
I have seen it bolted to the engine mount and the power steering bracket.


Okie Dokie... thank YOU!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Feb 24, 2017, 05:15:05 PM
I had to cut this hose (I think its a Fuel Return Hose) off as I raised the engine from the bay as I was pulling it.  I now have to insert a duel barbed connector, insert a piece of new soft fuel hose, in order to get it connected to the 1/4" nipple on the damper connected to the injector rail.  The hose is very very hard... no doubt the original hose.  I even tried my super hot water trick to soften it, but it remained too hard to push over the nipple.

I'm not sure yet what smaller hose that attaches to the smaller nipple on the front face of the damper.

Has anyone experienced this issue?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

just small fuel hose

you were right its the return hose.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 25, 2017, 01:26:18 AM
just small fuel hose

you were right its the return hose.


Thanks, 79coyotefrg.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Feb 25, 2017, 09:48:24 PM
I have my ground attached to the power steering bracket. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 26, 2017, 04:02:45 AM
I have my ground attached to the power steering bracket. 


Thanks, Cheesemaker.  Yeah, I guess it really doesn't matter as long as it gets a good ground connection.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Feb 27, 2017, 05:27:25 PM
I also have my alternator ground wire on the alternator as that's where it was when I first bought the truck. One thing I did when I did my rebuild was install studs top and bottom where the starter is before putting on the intake manifolds.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Feb 27, 2017, 05:31:00 PM
..... One thing I did when I did my rebuild was install studs top and bottom where the starter is before putting on the intake manifolds.

Hmmmmm.... good idea!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 05, 2017, 06:31:01 AM
UPDATE 3-5-17 Sunday AM

I had to use a 1/8” barbed hose coupler and 12” piece of fuel hose to re-attach the Fuel Return Hose on the end of the fuel diaphragm on the injection rail up against the firewall.

I heated the new hose in a cup of boiling water to slip it over the nipple on the diaphragm.

I tried to use a ¼” barbed connector, but no way could I get it inserted into the old hose.

I had to cut this hose when I pulled the engine, I could not get the hose pulled off the nipple with the engine dangling on end of the cherry picker.

HOT TIP:  When you go to re-install the engine and drop it down into the engine bay, I strongly suggest you consider attaching this hose BEFORE your dop it completely down on the frame rails and while its on the cherry picker and you lay the wire harness on the fuel rail and install the throttle body.

It was a flipp’n knuckle-busting-hand-scraping-curse-riddled-nastyhard-time to get that damn hose onto the nipple and the hose clamp tightened.  Of course, I had ZERO practice until last Friday.

I should have the rest of the vacuum hoses and wires connected today.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 05, 2017, 12:00:52 PM
Where does this "injector type" green connector go?

It's hanging down from the wire harness under the throttle body.

I thought I had all the connector accounted for?  It's looks too short to be located up between the injector rail and the throttle body towards the rocker cover?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Mar 05, 2017, 12:11:25 PM
Did you get both connectors on both sensors on the front of the lower intake manifold?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 05, 2017, 12:38:20 PM
Yes...  It fits into a blue receptacle on back side (firewall side) of the throttle control.

:)bestgen4runner was in the squawk box and I found where it goes.  It could be more hidden!

I think I will pull the throttle body and rebuild, clean the throttle control as :)bestgen4runner suggested.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 05, 2017, 12:46:13 PM
That green connector goes onto the blue receptacle on back side of this.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 05, 2017, 02:03:50 PM
I found a really bad photo on the net of a valve and the little blue receptacle on the back side.

I think this is the same one on my 86.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 05, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
I found another photo on the net.

Here is, apparently, what it looks like inside.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 05, 2017, 03:40:21 PM
That's the cold start Idle Air Control  (IAC)

Coolant and a bimetallic strip (resistor wire is wrapped around strip, that's what connector is for) close the opening.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2017, 02:51:38 AM
That's the cold start Idle Air Control  (IAC)

Coolant and a bimetallic strip (resistor wire is wrapped around strip, that's what connector is for) close the opening.

Thanks emsvitil.

I decided NOT to take it apart at this point.  After I fire the engine and get it broken in (unless I have some issues that are related to this part) I will take it apart and clean it or replace it if necessary.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2017, 02:54:28 AM
UPDATE 3-10-17

As I get within a few hours of firing this engine, my frustration level shoots up.

It blows me away that after 30+ years of these engines being rebuilt I could NOT find a drawing, explanation, diagram, or photo showing where these hose are *precisely* connected.

My 1986 FSM is worthless.  After over an hour searching on the net I found nothing conclusive.

My lack of experience with rebuilding this engine is my problem, along with being old and slow.  However, obviously these hose connections must an issue for others because the questions are all over net.  My throttle body only has 3 1/8" copper hose nipples on top of the throttle body.

Perhaps someone with more advanced research skills can find something that make sense for my 1986 22RE, and share them.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 10, 2017, 03:15:25 AM
I thought the emissions or EFI section had a hose diagram somewhere.......
(out of town, can't look at my manual)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2017, 05:44:01 AM
I thought the emissions or EFI section had a hose diagram somewhere.......
(out of town, can't look at my manual)

Yes... I believe it is "somewhere"..... I just can't find "somewhere".  :disturbed:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Hickory Nut on Mar 10, 2017, 06:26:35 AM
Here is picture of where the one on my 22RE connected. I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Hickory Nut on Mar 10, 2017, 06:30:17 AM
Picture of hose.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2017, 07:13:29 AM
Picture of hose.

Yes... that DOES help!!

Thank you!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 10, 2017, 08:21:35 AM
Is your under hood sticker missing? That's the best place to find the diagram.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2017, 12:40:12 PM
Is your under hood sticker missing? That's the best place to find the diagram.


Yes, the factory diagram is there, it's somewhat faded. I'll look at it tonight.

GOOD idea!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 10, 2017, 12:43:38 PM
Yes, the factory diagram is there, it's somewhat faded. I'll look at in tonight.

GOOD idea!

Gnarls.
Silly Gnarls, If it was any closer it would have bit You.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2017, 01:47:07 PM
Silly Gnarls, If it was any closer it would have bit You.

Well.. I will see tonight if that works??

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 10, 2017, 05:06:39 PM
Hey :)bestgen4runner,

Well, the diagram DOES in fact show the connections. :yesnod:

I want to give you a BIG hug for, again, solving my frustrating connection mystery… and at the same time smack you for publically exposing my ree-tardness!  LOL. :yupyup:

It did not occur to me to look at my hood for the diagram.  :smack:

I thought that I would find the connections clearly shown when I did a Google search after a short time.  :gap:

Can someone please explain WHY in the flip this diagram is NOT replicated in the FSM???  ???

Now…. can someone please explain why this diagram that is on my hood, that clearly and simply shows the connections for the hoses for my factory 22RE engine, cannot be easily, if at all, found on the internet?  :dunno:

Your help and quickness to reply is very much appreciated… and of course you are making some valuable deposits in your “Karma Bank”!!  :beerchug: :ladys-man: :greengrin:

EDIT:  I edited the photo in Microsoft Paint to change the color to make it more readable.

Gnarls. :D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 12, 2017, 01:45:57 PM
UPDATE 3-12-17 Sunday

I got the engine real close to “RTF”!!

But…. after putting water and coolant in the radiator, I noticed coolant leaking.  I could not pin point it, but it was coming from the a hose, or hoses attached the IAC (Idle Air Control) valve.

It was a bear to get it out.

I believe I can clean and re-use the IAC valve, but I will order new hoses and clamps from 22RE Performance tomorrow.

After I get the hoses and put the valve back on the engine, I believe I’m within an about 1 hour of firing the engine.

The nipples are rusted and pitted, but I think I can get the new hoses to seal with some Permatex Form-A-Gasket.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 13, 2017, 06:27:09 PM
I would bet this IAC valve is the original from factory.

Has anyone actually opened up their 22RE IAC valve and cleaned it, sealed up the cover with some kind of gasket maker, and reinstalled it, and it worked 100%?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 13, 2017, 06:39:25 PM
Yes, for awhile........

Test the resistance across the connector.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 13, 2017, 06:50:21 PM
I also had to rebuild the harness connector as the wire(s) broke internally next to the connector.

I cut it off, fixed connector with new wire, and reconnected my new pigtail to the original wires.    Polarity of wires doesn't matter for this application.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 13, 2017, 07:29:10 PM

Test the resistance across the connector.

There is zero ohms across both terminals at the connector.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 13, 2017, 07:36:08 PM
I'm glad I did NOT apply any solvent or liquid on the inside of this IAC valve.

After I cleaned some of the carbon off with only a dry Q-tip, I noticed it looks like there one piece (attached to spring) that is made of some kind of phenolic material.  The cover is also made from what appears to be some type of phenolic.

I cleaned the 2 nipples with a tiny wire brush and my Dremel tool.

The old gasket is still intact, so I will just apply a very thin coat of Ultra Black.

I'm not sure what level of functionality it has at this point, but I will re-install it a see.

I ordered my 4 hoses and new clamps from 22RE Performance and should be able to get this re-installed by Saturday morning.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 13, 2017, 07:54:55 PM
There is zero ohms across both terminals at the connector.

Gnarls.


That's too low, it should have some resistance.

What are the spec's in the FSM?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 13, 2017, 07:59:07 PM
Use some jumper wires and see what happens (after checking continuity at lowest setting) and power it up..

Should get hot and the bimetallic strip should change opening.   (leave cover off)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 13, 2017, 09:30:31 PM
Find the write up I told you about.
Everything will make sense then.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 14, 2017, 04:35:02 AM
That's too low, it should have some resistance.

What are the spec's in the FSM?

Find the write up I told you about.
Everything will make sense then.


I checked it again this morning at 77.3 d F in my "study".   I got 00.04 ohms

I put it outside on the patio with ambient air temp at 61d F.  I checked it again after 30 minutes and got 49.7 ohms.

So is the measurement correct?  For a wire, resistance (ohms) goes up with increase in temperature – not down.  The gate did move to allow an opening very close to what is diagramed in the FSM... so it appears to be functioning properly. 

The FSM is not clear on measuring the resistance - 39 to 59 ohms (at what temperature?).  In the FSM, the resistance measurement is No. 2 under "On-vehicle check", and after checking and pinching air hose while engine temp is below 140d F, then again after warm up.

I think I understand how this device works. It’s mechanical.  It is simply an air “gate” to allow more air into the chamber at cold idle – when the mixture is rich, increasing engine RPM.  After the engine temp goes up, the heat coil heats up from the hot coolant being pumped next to the heat coil, causing the bimetal strip to expand and twist, which moves the phenolic gate and then closes off the air opening.

After the engine is started, the ECU senses current flow through heat coil, as the coolant heats up, and the bimetal strip closes the gate - lowering the engine RPM.

So far, I can’t find a video or write up that tells me what I want to know?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 14, 2017, 07:22:36 AM
So, what your saying is "BestGen? Please find this write up You speak of. Because I am unsure how to use this thing they call Google".  :dunno:
Ok Gnarly, I will find it for You.  :therethere:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 14, 2017, 08:21:15 AM
So, what your saying is "BestGen? Please find this write up You speak of. Because I am unsure how to use this thing they call Google".  :dunno:
Ok Gnarly, I will find it for You.  :therethere:

I thought I was pretty good with Google, but sometimes even after hours of searching, I can't find what I'm looking for?

May be my old age!!... or could be Google?

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 14, 2017, 01:01:37 PM
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=36294.0
Best thing I could find for You. Hits all the key points.
The one I was describing is gone I guess, that's  really to bad. It was very well done.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 14, 2017, 01:11:18 PM
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=36294.0
Best thing I could find for You. Hits all the key points.
The one I was describing is gone I guess, that's  really to bad. It was very well done.


Thank you.  I will check it out tonight.

Sseeeee..... It was not just me!.... gone means  I can't find it??

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 14, 2017, 05:18:13 PM
The coolant alone doesn't move the bimetallic strip very much.

The wire is resistance wire.    It heats up the bimetallic strip..........


0 ohms sounds like a short..........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 14, 2017, 06:29:00 PM
The coolant alone doesn't move the bimetallic strip very much.

The wire is resistance wire.    It heats up the bimetallic strip..........


0 ohms sounds like a short..........

The coolant alone doesn't move the bimetallic strip very much.

The wire is resistance wire.    It heats up the bimetallic strip..........


0 ohms sounds like a short..........

Oh... OK.  I thought the ECU was measuring resistance.

So, the heat coil is heated up from the current that the ECU sends to it at start up - which causes the bimetal strip to twist or bend and close the gate.  I assume the two nipples attached are to flow coolant passed the chamber to keep it from over heating.

So there must be current applied to the heat coil constantly during the time the engine is running.

A short can measure zero ohms.  But since I got a reading of 49.7, could there still be a short?  If the coil had an open, then the ohm reading would be inifinity, right?

Gnarls.




Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 14, 2017, 06:57:22 PM

1) So there must be current applied to the heat coil constantly during the time the engine is running.

2) A short can measure zero ohms. 

3) But since I got a reading of 49.7, could there still be a short? 

4) If the coil had an open, then the ohm reading would be inifinity, right?

Gnarls.




1) yes
2) yes
3) if you can measure 0, there's a short under certain circumstances.   Make sure it's not you causing short
4) correct
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 15, 2017, 04:36:18 AM

1) yes
2) yes
3) if you can measure 0, there's a short under certain circumstances.   Make sure it's not you causing short
4) correct


Thanks emsvitil.  :smooch:   I always appreciate your input.  :beerchug:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 15, 2017, 06:27:42 PM
UPDATE:  3-15-2017

I should have my hoses from 22RE Performance on Friday.  Saturday morning I should have the engine ready to fire. 

From race engines to antique engines, over the years I’ve had conversations, read, watch videos, about different procedures, recommendations, suggestions, practices, advice, and hot tips on how to break in a rebuilt engine.

I am curious if anyone has learned of,  or has experienced a successful procedure for breaking in a rebuilt Toyota 20/22 engine, and would like to share that.

Since I’m hoping to fire my 1986 Toyota SR5 XtraCab, 5-speed, rebuilt (from block up) 22RE on Saturday, I would appreciate any suggestions, comments, or advice.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Mar 16, 2017, 07:22:15 AM
Finally got my hose coolant bypass hose kit from Putney.  I tried to make regular hose to work.  Was a little broke for a couple weeks.  But I finally got all the little coolant hoses.  Hopefully, I can have them on tonight.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: fireitup on Mar 16, 2017, 10:04:43 AM
UPDATE:  3-15-2017

I should have my hoses from 22RE Performance on Friday.  Saturday morning I should have the engine ready to fire. 

From race engines to antique engines, over the years I’ve had conversations, read, watch videos, about different procedures, recommendations, suggestions, practices, advice, and hot tips on how to break in a rebuilt engine.

I am curious if anyone has learned of,  or has experienced a successful procedure for breaking in a rebuilt Toyota 20/22 engine, and would like to share that.

Since I’m hoping to fire my 1986 Toyota SR5 XtraCab, 5-speed, rebuilt (from block up) 22RE on Saturday, I would appreciate any suggestions, comments, or advice.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Good luck Gnarls!  Always an exciting moment

Mobile

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 16, 2017, 10:28:15 AM
Good luck Gnarls!  Always an exciting moment

Mobile



Thank you!  I'll post the "exciting moment" as soon as it happens!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: joeyf on Mar 16, 2017, 12:42:19 PM
For breaking in the engine, drive it live you are breaking in new gears. Do it on back roads so your speed in never constant.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 16, 2017, 01:57:40 PM
For breaking in the engine, drive it live you are breaking in new gears. Do it on back roads so your speed in never constant.


I have never broken in any gears... I will drive on some back roads out here in the desert.  I will vary the speed.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: joeyf on Mar 16, 2017, 02:15:16 PM
It takes forever but for the first 500 miles, drive for 30 or 40 minutes at a time. stop and let it cool down. Use cheap oil for that first 500, no need to spend good money on something that is going to be junk in a few hundred miles.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 16, 2017, 02:21:37 PM
It takes forever but for the first 500 miles, drive for 30 or 40 minutes at a time. stop and let it cool down. Use cheap oil for that first 500, no need to spend good money on something that is going to be junk in a few hundred miles.


Yes, from normal operating temp for short runs, then complete cool down IS the way I plan to break in my rebuilt, and is actually more important than varying the speed.

I plan to run the Royal Purple break-in oil for about 100 miles, then drain with new oil filter then put in 10-40 conventional for the next 400 miles, then drain and run another 500 miles on conventional. 

I will not be babying it.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 17, 2017, 04:29:32 AM
UPDATE:  3-17-2017

Just some thoughts about tomorrow when I hope to fire this rebuild….  about 9 months after starting. :blah:

I received my IAC hoses and clamps yesterday. :D

When I started this project there was no rush.  Since I can’t do things half-a$$ed, I knew I’d be spending time and money to do it the way I’d feel good about it at the end of rebuild, AND I knew it would be a continuing project (exhaust system upgrade, camshaft changes, dyno testing, lockers, Marlin Crawler t-case, etc). :driving:

Having spent many years maintaining older vehicles, I also knew replacing old parts was part of the deal. :yesnod:

I underestimated my out-of-pocket cost and my actual hours spent from start to finish by quite a bit. I’m now North of $4,500 in cost.  I didn’t track my actual hours, but the total will be more than 200.

I’m not complaining about having to replace a 30 year old rubber hose because it is actually amazing to me how well those little Japanese Toyota engineers designed this truck!

As anyone who has purchased Toyota factory parts knows, the Japanese are REALLY proud of their parts! :smack:

$54.00 for one little rubber hose seems outrageous!  :yikes:

Not to discourage anyone who may be new to doing this type of project, just be aware of potential costs for parts.

Here are my new hoses and clamps – just for the IAC valve connections….  $136.50  :shudder:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 17, 2017, 04:35:36 AM
Fire it uuuuuuuuup!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: fireitup on Mar 17, 2017, 05:10:47 AM
Fire it uuuuuuuuup!
:beerchug:

Mobile

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Mar 17, 2017, 07:37:49 AM
I just got the 3 pack of hoses and the u shaped one for my 2nd gen, and it was $74 including shipping!  I tried to find local and elsewhere.  But no winning on that one. 

I wanted to get it put on 2 nights ago when they came in, but family had to come first.  Hopefully this weekend, after we get back from a overnight adventure to Astoria, OR. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 17, 2017, 08:45:10 AM
.. I wanted to get it put on 2 nights ago when they came in, but family had to come first.   


Yeah... I'm very familiar with the "family had to come first".   :thumbs:

Gnarls.  :greengrin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 17, 2017, 02:01:28 PM
I just got the 3 pack of hoses and the u shaped one for my 2nd gen, and it was $74 including shipping!  I tried to find local and elsewhere.  But no winning on that one. 

I wanted to get it put on 2 nights ago when they came in, but family had to come first.  Hopefully this weekend, after we get back from a overnight adventure to Astoria, OR. 

The Goonies?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 17, 2017, 03:04:30 PM
The Goonies?

Great Movie - 1985!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Mar 17, 2017, 05:46:58 PM
Yeah we have done that!  The owners of the house, are getting tired of the fame.  The neighbors more so! 

On a side note, I have a friend that her and her siblings were extras on the beach scenes of the movie.  Plus she is still in contact with Sean Astin.  She went to the 25th Anniv. and has a sweatshirt signed by the cast, and she is a 6th grade teacher and the kids in her class goes nuts over the fact she was in the movie!

There is several really good breweries there, the Astoria Column, Fort Stevens, Peter Iredale, Metzler/Astoria bridge, and the cool Maritime Museum. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 18, 2017, 06:59:43 PM
UPDATE:  March 18, 2017 PM

Well, I tried to fire the engine this morning.  NO fuel from fuel pump.  :sad2:

I ordered a Denso fuel pump, fuel strainer, and fuel tank gasket from RockAuto.  :D

Edit:  I would have ordered it from 22RE Performance, but they want $160 without the tank gasket, and without shipping.  RockAuto was $103, with shipping and tank gasket... for same Denso parts.

Should be here Wednesday.  I will install it on Thursday.  :greengrin:

Special thanks goes out to :)bestgen4runner, ovrarok, and Nation
for their input and help during my “testing”.   :beerchug:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 18, 2017, 07:07:23 PM
Did you check the fuse?

 :think:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 18, 2017, 07:33:13 PM
Did you check the fuse?

 :think:
2 times.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 19, 2017, 06:36:53 AM
HOT TIP...

I have fiddled and fumbled and cussed at those little stock hose clamps for years!!

I have no idea what the heck was keeping me from having this tool in my tool chest?

On this rebuild, after using some really naughty language each time I had to move one of those clamps on a hose, as I tried to use my regular pliers and a pair of straight needle nose pliers.

So, I just ordered a pair of these:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/TEKTON-10-in-Long-Reach-90-Degree-Bent-Nose-Pliers-34406/206200671

But.... I have all those little beasts all secured now!!..... way too late to the party!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 19, 2017, 07:20:03 AM
QUESTION?

Before I start unbolting my bed to get to the top of the fuel tank to R&R the fuel pump, has anyone successfully tilted the bed back far enough to get to the fuel pump – without having to fully lift the bed off the frame and over the rear tires?

I have limited space in the garage and don’t want to use my starter to get the truck out of the garage right now.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Mar 20, 2017, 05:19:01 AM
I have loosened one side, took the bolts out of the passenger side, and used a rafter to pull up on the bed before. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Mar 20, 2017, 05:22:08 AM
Why not drop the tank? Is much easier and doesn't risk messing up the bed.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 20, 2017, 06:38:38 AM
Why not drop the tank? Is much easier and doesn't risk messing up the bed.

OK, I'm open to whatever is easy, simple, less fuss with rusty nuts & bolts, less risk of breaking a wire harness or damaging something that's old and hard, and takes less time.  I've never had the pleasure of dropping a gas tank on a truck, or removing the bed.

The tank probably weighs around 20 lbs and with 5 gals of gas in it, it's about 50 lbs.  I can muscle 50 lbs down, and can use my tranny jack to get it back up.

I will check out the procedure for dropping the tank. 

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 20, 2017, 06:40:34 AM
I have loosened one side, took the bolts out of the passenger side, and used a rafter to pull up on the bed before. 

OK, I can see that as good trick.  I will check out what I have to do to raise the passenger side.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 20, 2017, 06:48:34 AM
OK, I'm open to whatever is easy, simple, less fuss with rusty nuts & bolts, less risk of breaking a wire harness or damaging something that's old and hard, and takes less time.  I've never had the pleasure of dropping a gas tank on a truck, or removing the bed.

The tank probably weighs around 20 lbs and with 5 gals of gas in it, it's about 50 bls.  I can muscle 50 lbs down, and can use my tranny jack to get it back up.

I will check out the procedure for dropping the tank. 

Thanks,

Gnarls.


I did a quick web search, it looks like dropping the tank involves disconnecting more than one fuel line... I'm hesitant to have to replace those.. they are most likely really hard and brittle...... I will do some more research.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 20, 2017, 06:51:52 AM
I recommend you pull the bed.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 20, 2017, 06:54:42 AM
I recommend you pull the bed.  :twocents:


I'm leaning heavily in that direction!  :gap:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Mar 21, 2017, 04:58:30 AM
Your removing fuel lines regardless.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 21, 2017, 06:53:22 AM
Your removing fuel lines regardless.

Yes.. but isn't way more difficult to remove the fuel lines with the bed on?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 21, 2017, 07:31:05 AM
Use a line wrench if you have to take the main line off.  Don't ask me how I know ;).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Mar 21, 2017, 07:45:33 AM
The tank will drop about a foot before the lines are causing an issue. I've never had a problem by dropping the tank.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 22, 2017, 03:27:57 AM
The tank will drop about a foot before the lines are causing an issue. I've never had a problem by dropping the tank.

OK, I get what you are describing.  I could lower the tank with my tranny jack, then work on the disconnecting the lines, then rolling it out from under the truck, R&R the pump, raise it back up with the tranny jack, connect the lines, remount it.... right?  Working in that "about a foot" space while under my truck seems like it might be a little frustrating.  But... again I have not removed a bed or removed a fuel tank from one of my trucks.

Getting to the fuel pump on a pick up seems like a big pain in the arse!!  :shudder:

I'll know more in a couple days.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 22, 2017, 07:57:23 AM
My 4Runner has a removable access plate under the back seat.  I always wanted to build that into a pickup bed.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 22, 2017, 10:21:33 AM
Gnarly, don't You dare cut a hole in that bed!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 22, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
Gnarly, don't You dare cut a hole in that bed!

LOL!!!!!  That's funny right there... I don't care who you are!!  :rofl:

I actually gave it a thought for about 2 seconds!  :willynilly: :gap:

Gnarls. :ha_ha:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 23, 2017, 12:22:17 PM
UPDATE 3-23-2017 Thursday – Removing and Replacing the fuel pump

This morning I looked over the process to remove or unbolt and lift the bed.  I didn’t like the limited access to the nuts and bolts.  There are rivets that are attached to a crossbar on the bottom of the bed fastened to the frame rail.  I decided NOT to try to remove or break those rivets.

I then looked at the fuel tank.  There are 6 bolts to remove the skid plate. I did not drain the 5 gallons of gasoline. There are 6 bolts to unbolt the tank from the bed.  There are 3 phillips head screws to be removed to allow the filler neck slide down.  I used my tranny jack to lower the tank about 6”.

I then had to disconnect the tank gauge connector, and bend back a clip to allow the hoses to lengthen and then I could lower the tank to about 6” from the garage floor, still sitting on the tranny jack.  My truck is sitting on its 31" tires.

The filler neck and parallel hose did not want to come out completely and I didn’t want to pull on them anymore.  I decided to leave them where they were and tilt the front of the tank onto the garage floor.  At that point I am able to get to the top of the tank, the hoses, and the screws holding in the pump cover. I took some my compressed air and blasted all the dust and debris on the top and around the pump cover. I soaked the two nuts on the main hose and the screws hold the pump cover with liquid wrench.  I waited for about 1 hour.

Using 19mm and 14mm line wrenches, I tried with great care NOT to bend or break the metal tube attached to the top of the pump cover as I tried to break loose the two nuts.  They would NOT budge!  At that point I decided I had enough room to remove the cover screws and lift thentire pump assembly out of the tank.  I was very surprised how loose the screws were!  There are only two hoses that are attached to the cover.  I carefully lifted the rubber seal gasket under cover with a screwdriver (I didn't want anything to drop into the tank), and was able to lift out the entire pump assembly – leaving both hoses attached.

The filter screen material was gone, probably completely disintegrated after 31 years.  The rubber standoff on the bottom of the pump was practically swollen, melted and gooey.

I easily removed the two little nuts holding the positive and ground wires to the top of the pump, and the output hose at the top of the pump.

I accidently dropped the pump on the garage floor before I could test it!!  I connected a 12v and ground wire to the battery and the pump worked!  I took a plastic peanut butter jar filled with water, stuck the bottom of the pump in the water, and powered it again, and it pumped like crazy!!

Crap…. So now… was the pump “stuck” and the shock when I dropped it “unstuck” it, or was it working while I was testing it, if it was pumping, WHY could I NOT get any fuel to the cold start injector??

For me, whether to remove or tilt the bed of the truck to get to the fuel pump or drop the gas tank… I would highly recommend dropping the gas tank.  It took me about 45 minutes to get the tank on the garage floor and about another 15 minutes to remove the pump… but I was taking my time and documenting my process.

Now that I’ve done it (dropped the tank and removed the fuel pump), and if I had to do it again, I think I could R&R the fuel pump again in about 2 to 3 hours, but I’m probably slower than average.

I should receive the new Denso pump on Friday, I hope to have it installed and tank back up by Sunday.

Thank you for all the input on this, and especially redneckcustoms13 for sharing his experience!

I apologize the novel, but I wanted to share the details and my perspective on this.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 23, 2017, 12:32:15 PM
The fuel Line that You could not break loose is the main reason that I have removed the bed. I have seen that line twisted into a mess several times. When the bed is removed it is very accessible to work with. Never tried to unscrew the Assembly from the tank with the lines still hooked up.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 23, 2017, 12:42:00 PM
The fuel Line that You could not break loose is the main reason that I have removed the bed. I have seen that line twisted into a mess several times. When the bed is removed it is very accessible to work with. Never tried to unscrew the Assembly from the tank with the lines still hooked up.

Even I had the bed removed, and complete access to the fitting, I don't believe I could get those two nuts to break loose without breaking the tube off the cover.  There is no way to apply any leverage against the fitting while its attached to that metal tube attached to the top of the cover! And, since I didn't need to remove the hose with the clam or the hose with the nut fitting, I would NOT attempt to loosen it unless it was necessary to replace the hoses and the fuel pump assembly and cover.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 23, 2017, 01:25:38 PM
I had an '86 that the pump would not go on the truck but it would when I jumped it loose.  After dinking with a bunch of different things on circuits that can make or break the fuel pump it ended up being the connector in that little plastic bubble on top of the fuel pump/sender lid.  The bubble was cracked and the connector was crusty and green.  This may not be your problem but don't rule out the stupid stuff like that :).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 23, 2017, 01:27:31 PM
Sure wish You would have checked that last ground like I asked You to.  :_oops:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 23, 2017, 07:01:44 PM
Sure wish You would have checked that last ground like I asked You to.  :_oops:

Geezz.. I thought we tested everything??  :smack:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 23, 2017, 07:11:56 PM
I had an '86 that the pump would not go on the truck but it would when I jumped it loose.  After dinking with a bunch of different things on circuits that can make or break the fuel pump it ended up being the connector in that little plastic bubble on top of the fuel pump/sender lid.  The bubble was cracked and the connector was crusty and green.  This may not be your problem but don't rule out the stupid stuff like that :).

Yeah.. the two wires that attach to the top of the pump, which obviously have been soaked with gasoline for 31 years, don't look good.  I will be checking everything before I put in the new pump.  The bottom rubber-like standoff that attaches to the bottom of the pump, and I assume sits on the bottom of the tank is destroyed and feels like a mushy sponge, so I will see if I can get a new one or maybe find a used one.  I checked RockAuto and the pump bracket and cover are not available without purchasing a new gas tank!  If I can find the cover with the pump mounting bracket assembly I would replace it.

If I were to do it again, I'd drain the gas out of the tank first.  That 30+ lbs of fuel made it more difficult to muscle the tank around.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 23, 2017, 07:58:00 PM
Did you get a new sock with the pump?





Page 21 Ownage    :cheese:   
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 23, 2017, 08:00:41 PM
I had to replace the pump on an 85 T-bird ages ago........

A piece of rubber from the sock had jammed up the pump.

You probably had something similar and dropping it dislodged junk.......
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 24, 2017, 02:52:43 AM
Did you get a new sock with the pump?


Yes, it comes with the Denso fuel pump kit.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 24, 2017, 03:01:02 AM
I had to replace the pump on an 85 T-bird ages ago........

A piece of rubber from the sock had jammed up the pump.

You probably had something similar and dropping it dislodged junk.......

Yeah.. thanks for the input... I was thinking the same thing (fingers crossed).  Without the sock to filter larger pieces of "anything", I can see how the pump could get plugged up.  When I drained the old gas that had been in the tank for almost 4 years, the gas was clean, I could not see any debris or material. It was stinky and appeared to be a little higher viscosity.

I'm glad I dropped the tank and checked this out.  I'd rather do it now in my garage than have the old 31 year old fuel pump fail when I'm out in the boonies or on the freeway between Phoenix and Casa Grande.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 24, 2017, 09:27:55 PM
UPDATE 3-24-17 Friday      

Received Denso pump kit today.

Ohm’d yellow connector to the pump and two wires on the pump assembly = all good connections.

Ohm’d the old pump = 3.2 ohms

Ohm’s the new pump = 6.4 ohms

Installed the new pump onto the assembly.  It drops down into the bottom of the tank that looks like a rectangle area with a raised lip. It may be an anti-slosh thing.

I wrestled with that damn tank for about 1 hour before getting it up to the frame rail and filler hose screwed back on.

HOT TIP:  IF YOU DROP THE TANK TO R&R THE FUEL PUMP – DRAIN THE TANK first!  :smack:

The tank had to be tilted edge-ways to get past the rear spring bolt and the rear drive shaft.

I have to bolt it down tomorrow, bolt on the skid plate, and hopefully get some fuel pumping to the cold start injector.

I was anxious to get the tank capped back up to avoid the gasoline fumes in the garage.

I hope to fire my engine Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning.  :bananasplit:

Gnarls.  :D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 26, 2017, 05:07:53 PM
UPDATE 03-26-17 PM

I got the fuel tank buttoned up.  I tested the new fuel pump yellow connector from the wire harness with at light and it turns on when the ignition key is on and the little flap inside the air filter cover/MAF is pushed, which also activates the relay which I can hear.  When I put my ear near the fuel tank filler hose I can hear it pump.

I got the engine to fire, but a paragraph of adjectives to would not completely express my disappointment.

Number 1 cylinder is not firing.  The spark plug looks wet, I think with gas.  At this point I don’t know why it wouldn’t fire.

I’ve tried two completely different sets of spark plugs, spark plug wires, and cap and rotor.

Do the fuel injector connectors from the wire harness have to be in a specific sequence attached to each injector?  If by chance I got cylinder number one injector connector switched with cylinder number 2 injector, would that cause one cylinder not fire?

I am very concerned it may be mechanical… like too low of compression?... or something is wrong with the valves?.

I have double checked the valve lash.

If there is any good news about this, it’s that there are no leaks any where.  The temp gauge goes to normal and I see oil pressure on the gauge.

I’m not sure where to start except to remove the throttle body (Oh my gawd!!) to get to the injector connectors and injectors?

I need valium drip right now!

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Hickory Nut on Mar 26, 2017, 05:44:43 PM
When I ordered my injectors there were numbers on them. I called 22RE performance and they said that was for testing and it didn't matter which Injector went where. As for the harness I marked mine with tape from front to back 1-4 and reinstalled them in that order. I didn't think there was enough slack for them to go back another way but looking back through my pictures the front and rear injector wires are longer than the middle ones. I hope this picture helps.   
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 26, 2017, 05:57:20 PM
Bad spark, or bad injector.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 26, 2017, 07:37:11 PM
Bad spark, or bad injector.  :dunno:

Yeah... that seems logical.  I will test for spark, but I can't imagine what would cause it not to spark.

The injectors were rebuilt and tested by WitchHunter, so I'd be surprised if one is bad.

I am somewhat concerned about the injector connectors.  A couple are broken on the mating edge and the little wire spring clip is not attached to the edge slots.

I am going to do a compression check.

I will also check the injector resistor box.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Mar 26, 2017, 08:17:17 PM
IIRC, the 22re is batch fired, so the harness connectors and injectors are basically interchangeable, or at least as far as the connectors will reach.

Can you hear feel the #1 injector firing, smell fuel on the #1 spark plug?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 27, 2017, 03:26:17 AM
IIRC, the 22re is batch fired, so the harness connectors and injectors are basically interchangeable, or at least as far as the connectors will reach.

Can you hear feel the #1 injector firing, smell fuel on the #1 spark plug?

When I pulled the plugs, #1 was wet and clean. It did smell like gas, and seemed to dry rather quickly in the air.

I don't know how I would feel or hear the injector firing?  :dunno:

I suppose its possible that it is plugged or partial plugged.  I didn't do anything to the fuel rail.  :dunno:

I hate to have to pull the throttle body, but I don't how else to get to the injector and connectors.  :dunno:

There is probably a good reason I'm NOT an "engine builder".  :nope:

Gnarls. :(



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 27, 2017, 03:52:56 AM
I think you maybe do have to dig those injectors out if you are getting spark.  Don't freak out this is probably something stupid simple and you just have to use the process of elimination to find it.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I have to mention it.  Could your distributor be off a tooth or 180 degrees out?  I have done this a great many times over the years :).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 27, 2017, 04:44:35 AM
I think you maybe do have to dig those injectors out if you are getting spark.  Don't freak out this is probably something stupid simple and you just have to use the process of elimination to find it.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I have to mention it.  Could your distributor be off a tooth or 180 degrees out?  I have done this a great many times over the years :).

Hey H8PVMNT,

Yes... I'm trying to think that it is just something simple that I overlooked or just didn't check out well enough, or just a fluke failure, like the fuel pump.  I really took my time on this rebuild and was extra careful, I don't think I took any shortcuts... but, I have zero practice on THIS engine.

I'll feel better after I do compression check and hopefully see there isn't a problem with the valves or rings.

At my age, I don't take anything the "wrong way"... I've done more than my share of "how-in-the-heck-did-I-do-THAT!"... I have fubar'd a basic fart more than once!!  :yikes:

I've checked the disty several times for #1 firing at #1 piston TDC.

I have flashbacks to years ago when I was testing 22R/RE cam profiles on my DD and researching.  One of guys I was communicating with had been testing 22RE camshafts and tested engbldr 261C in his 22RE.  He said he thought it caused a "lean fire" condition (I assume lean mixture in one or more cylinders).  As I remember, Ted responded on Pirate at the time and posted that he had not seen that issue with the 22RE and his 261C camshaft.

With that said, according to what I've read, the opening and closing (lobe lift and duration) of the intake valves plays NO part in the injection timing - but that information is referencing the STOCK engine.  BUT... I wonder how much overlap the ECU will tolerate?

It takes to 2 (two) complete crankshaft revolutions to get enough fuel injected into the chambers because the injectors only get 1/2 the full amount - 1/2 the pulse time - during one revolution.

I'm puzzled.

I appreciate the input!!

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Mar 27, 2017, 12:21:38 PM
I don't know how I would feel or hear the injector firing?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :(

Using a stethoscope you can hear the injector "tick" during starting or running, and should be able to reach in under/between the rad hose and intake to feel the #1 injector pulse with your finger.  The click/pulse should be precise/snappy.

Might try starting it again with the coil unplugged and compare the wetness of #1 and #2, not sure how much fuel gets carried in from the cold start injector. :dunno:


I have flashbacks to years ago when I was testing 22R/RE cam profiles on my DD and researching.  One of guys I was communicating with had been testing 22RE camshafts and tested engbldr 261C in his 22RE.  He said he thought it caused a "lean fire" condition (I assume lean mixture in one or more cylinders).  As I remember, Ted responded on Pirate at the time and posted that he had not seen that issue with the 22RE and his 261C camshaft.

With that said, according to what I've read, the opening and closing (lobe lift and duration) of the intake valves plays NO part in the injection timing - but that information is referencing the STOCK engine.  BUT... I wonder how much overlap the ECU will tolerate?

It takes to 2 (two) complete crankshaft revolutions to get enough fuel injected into the chambers because the injectors only get 1/2 the full amount - 1/2 the pulse time - during one revolution.

I'm puzzled.

I appreciate the input!!

Gnarls.

The ecu can only increase/decrease the duration of time the injectors stay open, and uses the O2 sensor, throttle body position, air flow meter, etc., to adjust that duration, most of which really don't come into play until the engine is warm.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 27, 2017, 01:37:16 PM
Using a stethoscope you can hear the injector "tick" during starting or running, and should be able to reach in under/between the rad hose and intake to feel the #1 injector pulse with your finger.  The click/pulse should be precise/snappy.

Might try starting it again with the coil unplugged and compare the wetness of #1 and #2, not sure how much fuel gets carried in from the cold start injector. :dunno:

Okie Dokie... I have a real medical stethoscope, but I may have to buy one of them Probe type... and "listen" for the "tick".... and I'll put my finger on #1 injector and "feel" for the tick.

Thanks for the input!

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Mar 27, 2017, 02:37:08 PM
Probably could use the MD scope with a heavy wire, with either one, don't put both eat piece in, end engine now are too loud, I leave mine outside the ear canal, just for enough to hear what is going on.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Mar 27, 2017, 06:37:41 PM
If the spark plug is wet with fuel and smells like fuel then the injector should not be a problem. Are you sure you have spark at cyl. num 1? If you have fuel on the spark plug, and you have spark, then it can only be timing related, valve lash related, or mecanical damage.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 27, 2017, 07:00:52 PM
Probably could use the MD scope with a heavy wire, with either one, don't put both eat piece in, end engine now are too loud, I leave mine outside the ear canal, just for enough to hear what is going on.



I just ordered some tools.  I should have them Wednesday.  I will check the spark on all 4 plugs.  I will use my new engine stethoscope to "scope" out any good sounds.  I will also do a compression check.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 27, 2017, 07:31:52 PM
If the spark plug is wet with fuel and smells like fuel then the injector should not be a problem. Are you sure you have spark at cyl. num 1? If you have fuel on the spark plug, and you have spark, then it can only be timing related, valve lash related, or mecanical damage.

Hey Gillesdetrail,

I have a bad gut feeling that this issue is not spark or fuel.  I hope I'm wrong!... and I will be glad to discover it's something simple.  Although there are very few things, in my experience, with anything I would call "simple" with this engine.

I will go back and re-check ALL adjustments again, just be sure I've not missed something.

I will re-check cam timing and ignition timing.  If it's mechanical, and it's a low compression issue, then it's likely the valves or valve seats.  This is a brand new RV head, OS valves, with a 261C cam installed by Tod at engbldr.  I'd be surprised it's a cylinder, piston, or piston rings... although anything is possible.  The block was bored 20 over, crank, pistons, rods, balanced, mic'd, magnafluxed and sonic tested by one of the most reputable engine builders/speed shops in Phoenix.... but again anything is possible.

The injectors were rebuilt by WitchHunter.. a highly reputable injector specialist.

However... this is a 31 year old vehicle and engine, so I'm not really surprised that I've encountered unexpected issues.  The truck was parked and in my garage for 3 1/2 years.

I will figure it out, with the input of everyone here who wants to share something, as I usually do.

There must be a reason why this is happening to me, so I'll assume I'm suppose to wait a little longer to get my truck back on the road again.... and "work" longer on this project.

I tell myself this is just a relatively simple engine, and to rebuild it and I should not need a PhD in automotive engineering.

Thanks for your input!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 27, 2017, 07:42:31 PM
How old is the gas?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 27, 2017, 07:51:00 PM
How old is the gas?

Hi emsvitil,

Thank you.  That tank was completely drained about 2 months ago.  I put in 5 gallons of fresh 91 octane gas last Sunday.

But.... I appreciate any and all "checks" to make sure I don't get caught with my "pants down".  :yikes:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on Mar 27, 2017, 09:45:45 PM
Have you seen this thread? May be worth looking into the injector harness just in case.

 https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/a-22re-injector-problem-i-had.311436/

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 28, 2017, 04:17:00 AM
Have you seen this thread? May be worth looking into the injector harness just in case.

 https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/a-22re-injector-problem-i-had.311436/



Hey liveoak,

No, I did not find that one in my very brief Google search.

Well, it makes sense as a possible problem.  When I first started to pull the engine I did open the ECU box and disconnected the harness, I was going to pull the harness through the firewall, and then stopped after realizing there are too many wires connected to it.  I also sprayed the engine bay with engine degreaser and hosed off with a garden hose and nozzle - once before I pulled the engine, then again after I had engine out.  I can see how the solvent and water can get into the harness and corrode connections.

Having read my 1986 FSM, I knew there are 2 circuits that power (ignition switch on) a pair of injectors (2 injectors connected together).  The FSM does not label which injector, but it may be 1 & 2, and 3 & 4, and in looking at the plugs, I think there are 2 plugs that look they are cleaner than the other two.

IF there is a connection failure in the wire harness in one pair of injectors, I can see how this would cause the misfire.  IF there is a connector with BOTH pairs, then all 4 injectors would not fire.

The FSM has a detailed diagnose and test section, so I could start by opening up the ECU box and do some probing.

Based on the photo in the link, it looks like the area on the harness he has opened is in the front of the engine.  I will have to remove the throttle body and chamber to get to that harness…. Crap!

Thanks for the input.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 28, 2017, 04:38:32 AM
In the category of simple, stupid things:  Do you have the ground from the back of the head to the fire wall hooked up?  This will sometimes make them not fire up.  I once rescued a guy on the side of the road with a dead 22re who had a crusty, broken ground there, I made him a new one and he drove home.

EFI fuse?  Stupid but I have fried this too and had it fool me.  Along the same line: Circuit opening relay clicking?

The EFI/Main lead to the battery positive in good shape and still there?  You know the smaller lead coming from the bottom of the under hood fuse box to the battery.  I was doing suspension on an '87 for a guy and it wouldn't start half the time, it happened that that lead looked OK but was all green inside. Replaced it and it fired right up.

Other dumb items include a fried coil/ignitor.  They can make spark but a weak spark and fool you.  I have had that before. Best to swap it out and try another one from a wrecking yard or a buddy for diagnosis.  Different years have different plugs but the same wires, so they are interchangeable to a degree.

On the compression, I may be wrong but I know I have had engine with horrible compression, broken rings, burnt valves, etc that will still fire and run.  I can't imagine with your meticulous rebuild that this would be the problem.

That's about all I have for you this morning.  I really want to see a first fire video!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 28, 2017, 06:40:24 AM
In the category of simple, stupid things:  Do you have the ground from the back of the head to the fire wall hooked up?  This will sometimes make them not fire up.  I once rescued a guy on the side of the road with a dead 22re who had a crusty, broken ground there, I made him a new one and he drove home.

EFI fuse?  Stupid but I have fried this too and had it fool me.  Along the same line: Circuit opening relay clicking?

The EFI/Main lead to the battery positive in good shape and still there?  You know the smaller lead coming from the bottom of the under hood fuse box to the battery.  I was doing suspension on an '87 for a guy and it wouldn't start half the time, it happened that that lead looked OK but was all green inside. Replaced it and it fired right up.

Other dumb items include a fried coil/ignitor.  They can make spark but a weak spark and fool you.  I have had that before. Best to swap it out and try another one from a wrecking yard or a buddy for diagnosis.  Different years have different plugs but the same wires, so they are interchangeable to a degree.

On the compression, I may be wrong but I know I have had engine with horrible compression, broken rings, burnt valves, etc that will still fire and run.  I can't imagine with your meticulous rebuild that this would be the problem.

That's about all I have for you this morning.  I really want to see a first fire video!

Hey... those are ALL things I will definitely check!!.. and a possibility...  at this point I won't completely rule out anything!

Thank you for the input!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on Mar 28, 2017, 08:32:15 AM
From what I've read, your engine starts and runs(on 3 cylinders anyway) , reaching operating temp with good oil pressure, right?
Yes, the 4 injectors are only controlled by 2 wires from the ECU combining 1&4, 2&3. Based on what you said about washing the harness I would definitely look at the 3 solder connections and redo them (which is a good thing to do on any 22re rebuild).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Mar 28, 2017, 09:20:30 AM
Hey Gillesdetrail,

I have a bad gut feeling that this issue is not spark or fuel.  I hope I'm wrong!... and I will be glad to discover it's something simple.  Although there are very few things, in my experience, with anything I would call "simple" with this engine.

I will go back and re-check ALL adjustments again, just be sure I've not missed something.

I will re-check cam timing and ignition timing.  If it's mechanical, and it's a low compression issue, then it's likely the valves or valve seats.  This is a brand new RV head, OS valves, with a 261C cam installed by Tod at engbldr.  I'd be surprised it's a cylinder, piston, or piston rings... although anything is possible.  The block was bored 20 over, crank, pistons, rods, balanced, mic'd, magnafluxed and sonic tested by one of the most reputable engine builders/speed shops in Phoenix.... but again anything is possible.

The injectors were rebuilt by WitchHunter.. a highly reputable injector specialist.

However... this is a 31 year old vehicle and engine, so I'm not really surprised that I've encountered unexpected issues.  The truck was parked and in my garage for 3 1/2 years.

I will figure it out, with the input of everyone here who wants to share something, as I usually do.

There must be a reason why this is happening to me, so I'll assume I'm suppose to wait a little longer to get my truck back on the road again.... and "work" longer on this project.

I tell myself this is just a relatively simple engine, and to rebuild it and I should not need a PhD in automotive engineering.

Thanks for your input!

Gnarls.

In my experience when you are diagnosing an engine probleme you really have to go step by step with what you know so far,

So here is what we know from your post if I read correctly.
1)the engine starts but runs on 3 cylinders.
2)cyl numb 1 is not firing
3)fuel is getting to cyl. numb 1 because the spark plug is wet and smells like fuel.

So from what we know, it can't be a bad distributor ground (because the engine would not start), or injector related (because fuel is getting to all 4 cyl.). So efi fuse is out of the question as well because if it was blown, it would not start, and no fuel would be getting to the cylinders. So here is what I would do next, make absolutely sure cyl num. 1 is not firing. If you are 100% sure, make sure there is spark. If you don't have spark in that cylinder only, It can't really be anything other than spark plug, spark plug wire, or cap related. Make 100% sure there is fuel getting to the cylinder (if spark plug is wet and smells like fuel, then fuel is getting there and you can rule out anything fuel related). Once we know all these 3 things we can narrow down from there.

If cyl. 1 is not firing, I am almost certain it is not caused by mecanical damage or improper installation, because it would fire even if there was only 30 psi. It would have to be something major for it to have 0 compression, to which there would be obvious signs just by pulling the spark plug, pulling the valve cover or by cranking it up.

So first thing is to make sure cyl 1 is not firing. If it isn't, and all the others are, we have to rule out a fuel, spark or air problem on that cylinder. If it IS firing, then it is probably timing related since the engine runs but poorly.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 03:38:56 AM
In my experience.... .... If it IS firing, then it is probably timing related since the engine runs but poorly.

Hi Gillesdetrail,

Thank you for your input.

I agree with your diagnosis.  Will a cylinder chamber fire on a freshly rebuilt 22RE engine with only 20 minutes of run time at a static compression of 30 lbs?

This afternoon I will check and verify spark to each cylinder and do a compression check.

I will see if I can detect #1 injector firing and will pull spark plugs again after getting engine up to operating temp and letting it idle for 10 minutes.

During the half dozen times I have fired the engine, after reaching operating temp, I have stabbed the throttle 5 or 6 times to 4,000 RPM with no change.  I have not attempted to drive the truck.

@Fuel Injectors – rebuilt and tested by WitchHunter

@Spark plugs, plug wires, cap & rotor
I believe I can eliminate spark plug, spark plug wires, or cap & rotor – replaced with two different sets.

@ Camshaft-Distributor Gear Timing
I believe I can eliminate initial distributor gear and cam sprocket timing – double checked number one piston is TDC,
# 1piston at TDC with distributor rotor sitting at number 1 contact on distributor cap. Distributor sitting at about the middle of adjusting slot.

@Crankshaft-Camshaft Timing
At initial engine assembly - #1 piston is at top of cylinder, crank pulley is at zero on oil pump timing tab, camshaft installed with keyway at 12 o’clock, camshaft sprocket sitting at 11:30 with both bright links at dots on crank sprocket and cam sprocket, valve lash adjusting screws completely loose.

@Valve Lash Adjustment
Double checked valve lash per 261C cam spec  - .007” Intake - .009” Exhaust.  The engine will start hard, but will warm up to normal operating temp on dash gauge, oil pressure comes up on dash gauge (obviously both not exactly accurate numerical reading).  Engine will idle at about 900 RPM on dash gauge tach. Engine sounds and vibrates like it is only firing on 3 cylinders… no backfire.

@Fuel Pressure
New fuel pump seems have plenty of fuel pressure – but I don’t have fuel pressure gauge.

One thing… when I was pulling the engine, the main wire cluster from the wire harness to the ignitor was caught and I cut the 3 wires about 20” from the connector.  I have carefully spliced and soldered it back together.  I’m not sure if that can cause the condition, but I will remove the insulation and look at where I soldered the 3 wires and verify conductivity.

I am hoping for a diagnosis and quick fix soon!!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 03:45:04 AM
From what I've read, your engine starts and runs(on 3 cylinders anyway) , reaching operating temp with good oil pressure, right?
Yes, the 4 injectors are only controlled by 2 wires from the ECU combining 1&4, 2&3. Based on what you said about washing the harness I would definitely look at the 3 solder connections and redo them (which is a good thing to do on any 22re rebuild).


Hi liveoak,

Yes... this could be an issue.  I will probably have to remove the t-body and chamber and get into the wire harness and injector connectors.  But... if an electrical connection is the issue, and #1 injector is not firing, then, according to your diagram, #4 injector would not be firing?

Thank you for your input.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 04:25:12 AM
POP QUIZ....   :attention:

Anybody know on what page in a Toyota Factory Service Manual for 22R/RE the firing order is specified?

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 29, 2017, 07:02:48 AM
1 3 4 2
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 08:52:04 AM
1 3 4 2

I know what the firing order is.  I can't find it in my 1986 FSM!!  It must be there somewhere, right?  :gap:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Mar 29, 2017, 10:08:29 AM
http://www.offroadforum.cz/toyota/aarc.epnet.com/application/8578/8578R02_FIRING_ORDER.html

at the second diagram.

I'm trying to remember if when my block was at tdc if the dot between the bright links was at 11:30 or 12:30, but I can't remember. Do you have a timing light?

edit: it was 11:30, and this might be useful:
https://www.yotatech.com/f116/installing-timing-chain-cant-line-up-marks-216514/#post51505200
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 29, 2017, 10:11:56 AM
OK you were starting to scare me :).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 29, 2017, 10:56:50 AM
I know what the firing order is.  I can't find it in my 1986 FSM!!  It must be there somewhere, right?  :gap:

Gnarls. :inthedark:

In my 88 FSM. If you go to section A2 in service specification, it in maintenance "engine"
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 29, 2017, 10:59:28 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170329/3fafc00c95e84b72cfac792a705d0545.jpg)

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 29, 2017, 12:40:00 PM
Once it starts, pull the wire off the cold start injector........

If for some reason the cold start injector is staying on, it may be only causing #1 to be too rich.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 29, 2017, 12:43:54 PM
Have you moved the injectors and/or the injector harness around?

I believe the ECU 'grounds' the injector so it fires.     A shorted wire may be keeping injector on.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 01:15:18 PM
Once it starts, pull the wire off the cold start injector........

If for some reason the cold start injector is staying on, it may be only causing #1 to be too rich.

Hmmmm... OK, I can try that.

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 01:16:20 PM
Have you moved the injectors and/or the injector harness around?

I believe the ECU 'grounds' the injector so it fires.     A shorted wire may be keeping injector on.

I have only moved the harness while removing the engine and re-installing it.

Since installing the injectors while it was still on the engine stand, I have not moved the injectors.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 01:18:35 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170329/3fafc00c95e84b72cfac792a705d0545.jpg)

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk



Geezz.... I looked for that firing order for 20 minutes and could NOT find it in my FSM!!!!

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 01:19:28 PM
OK you were starting to scare me :).

I am scaring MYSELF!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 07:37:00 PM
UPDATE 3-29-17 PM


Surprisingly, even only firing on 3 cylinders, the engine started right up and idled immediately. :thumbs:

Well… my gut feeling is correct…  I checked the spark.  All 4 spark plugs are getting spark.  :yesnod:

So, if the cylinder is getting spark, and it won’t fire the charge, then it seems logical it’s a fuel issue – too much or too little.  If not that, then it would seem to be lack of sufficient compression to fire the AF charge? If the compression is very low in #1 cylinder, I cannot see how it could be the piston and rings.  The only other cause would be the valves are not fully seating during the compression stroke?  Since the valve lash is per cam spec, what could it be?... missing valve stem seals?  :-\   :dunno:

What else would keep the chamber from firing?  :dunno:

Can it be an ignition timing issue?... I don’t think so.   :dunno:

Tomorrow morning I will do a compression check.  Then, I assume my next step is to get into the wire harness and the injector connectors and injectors.  :tantrum:

I did finally find the page in my FSM where they hide the firing order! … back of the book under Service Specifications Maintenance page A-2 in the Engine section.  So why the heck isn’t it in the distributor and ignition sections or ANY other place in the diagnose sections!!  :thumbdown:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 29, 2017, 07:56:05 PM
Have you tried swapping plug wire
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 07:57:27 PM
In my 88 FSM. If you go to section A2 in service specification, it in maintenance "engine"

Yep... that's where it is!!

I missed it.... I need to have my eyes checked and new prescription for increased magnification!  :cheese:

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 07:59:21 PM
Have you tried swapping plug wire

Do you mean swapping as in try a new set?  Yes.  But... they are getting spark to the spark plugs.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 08:13:25 PM
If I get into the wire harness, I would like to replace the damaged fuel injector connectors.

Has anyone done that with these?

https://www.delcity.net/store/Fuel-Injector-Connector/p_797788.h_797789.r_IF1003?mkwid=sf70lnH5S&crid=38094426869&mp_kw=&mp_mt=&gclid=CIac1rig_dICFciEfgodChYBwg

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 29, 2017, 08:39:20 PM
I had time to do more research. It looks like there is likely a problem in my wire harness and I will need to open it up and see what it looks like at the injector wire ground wires.

I will see if I can buy a noid light for these injectors.  Anyone have a source?

Chasing electrical ghosts in a 31 year old wire harness is almost as much fun as an enema.  :disturbed:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 07:08:21 AM

Not to be negative or take a crapity attitude about my 22RE, but to simply share my thoughts and experience as I go through this rebuild project…  after doing more research into the wire harness issues in these early 22RE engines, hopefully I will not see myself struggling with continuing problems with the wire harness and connectors.

Even if my problem is not harness, wires, or connector related, my research has raised questions and concerns about this engine and its reliability after a quality rebuild.

So, far I have not found a source for anything but used harnesses, and those are for specific year and model of the vehicle.

Before I started this rebuild, if I had known of the potential, and apparently not uncommon, failure issues with 20 to 30 year old wire harnesses, I would have seriously considered converting this engine to a carb’d 22R engine.

Its “Toyota-quality-like” to see a 1986 Toyota 4X4 with a 22RE engine go 30 years with no problems with the engine wiring.  BUT… the problems seem to rear their ugly heads when the harness is disturbed while doing a rebuild, parts replacement, testing, or just basic maintenance.

Even if a brand new wire harness was available and for a price that wouldn’t cause a TIA, the idea of removing and replacing that harness would be a nightmare for me.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 30, 2017, 07:17:56 AM
Carb.  ;)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Mar 30, 2017, 07:23:47 AM
The FSM and a volt ohm meter will be your friend. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 09:18:30 AM
UPDATE 3-30 AM

I have isolated the mis-fire to cylinder #1.  Using my engine stethoscope, each injector sounds the same, so I assume all 4 are at least firing.

With the engine idling, when pulled each plug wire off the spark plug, #1 had no affect, on numbers 2, 3, and 4 the engine idle dropped immediately.  Number 2, 3, and cylinders are firing.  So… it appears that number one cylinder is getting plenty of spark and some fuel.

Why else would it not fire?

I’m going to do a compression check now.

I’m getting more bummed out about this mystery.  :smack:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 10:13:25 AM
UPDATE  3-30 10am

Compression check showed between 149 and 150 lbs on my gauge for each cylinder.

So, its not a compression issue causing the #1 cylinder NOT to fire.

I have to believe its the injector or injector wiring or injector connector.

The stethoscope probe sound was the same for each injector?

As you can see on the spark plugs – 4, 3, 2, and 1 in that order, from left to right, #1 cylinder is not igniting the mixture – whatever it is or is NOT.

Does anyone have any ideas  for what else I might look at or test?

I can start opening up the wire harness and look at the wires and any solder connections for the #1 injector?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: DAWGTOY on Mar 30, 2017, 11:13:24 AM
whats the gap setting on the #1 plug?  i know you are getting spark at the sparkplug wire.
screw in another plug and plug the wire on the plug in question--ground it out and see if the
plug actually has a spark. you say it has a gas smell on the plug and is kinda wet looking
so i'm not sure how it's getting gas into the chamber if the injector is not firing.
i hope you get it figured out--- it's past time to have that thing on the trail.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Mar 30, 2017, 11:45:44 AM
whats the gap setting on the #1 plug?  i know you are getting spark at the sparkplug wire.
screw in another plug and plug the wire on the plug in question--ground it out and see if the
plug actually has a spark. you say it has a gas smell on the plug and is kinda wet looking
so i'm not sure how it's getting gas into the chamber if the injector is not firing.
i hope you get it figured out--- it's past time to have that thing on the trail.


What are the odd of getting a nonfunctional spark plug?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 30, 2017, 12:07:30 PM
Regardless of odds, only takes 3 min to eliminate the plug being bad.  :eyebrow:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Mar 30, 2017, 12:59:33 PM
Regardless of odds, only takes 3 min to eliminate the plug being bad.  :eyebrow:

I fully agree. Has anybody ever had a plug not work?  It has to have happened before...
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 01:46:38 PM
whats the gap setting on the #1 plug?  i know you are getting spark at the sparkplug wire.
screw in another plug and plug the wire on the plug in question--ground it out and see if the
plug actually has a spark. you say it has a gas smell on the plug and is kinda wet looking
so i'm not sure how it's getting gas into the chamber if the injector is not firing.
i hope you get it figured out--- it's past time to have that thing on the trail.


Hey Dawtoy,

Yeah... the first thing I did was check spark.

The gap on all the plugs are .030".  I had the new platinums at .032".

I don't know if the #1 spark plug is firing "inside" the cylinder, but it sure has plenty of spark outside.

I appreciate all input on what this "no fire" may be caused from. 

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 01:51:07 PM
I fully agree. Has anybody ever had a plug not work?  It has to have happened before...

In all my years I have never experienced a bad spark plug out the box.  And I have never had one fail... only "worn out" due to the electrodes were burned from mileage.  I have had spark plug wires go bad... the ones that are NOT wire core.

For this mis-fire, I tried two sets of different cap & rotor and different spark plugs, and different spark plug wires.

It's gett'n SPARK!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 01:53:15 PM
Regardless of odds, only takes 3 min to eliminate the plug being bad.  :eyebrow:

Yes, and since I put in a brand new set before attempting to fire the engine for the first time, I immediately put on another different set.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 30, 2017, 01:53:23 PM
Time to pull the harness
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 30, 2017, 01:57:38 PM
Question, did you purchase vehicle with bad motor, or where you driving this when motor went bad ?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 02:00:43 PM
Time to pull the harness

I think so too... but I have to work myself up to it... now I'm starting to feel my frustration level go high.

I just hate to undo all that careful installation job I did on the chamber and T-body!

I took the truck for very short test run, hoping by some miracle that the injector would miraculously start working!! ... sadly I had to park it back in the garage with it still running on 3 cylinders... AND on top of that.... crap... the gas gauge quit working!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have faint visions of a new Tacoma or Tundra in my future.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 02:05:29 PM
Question, did you purchase vehicle with bad motor, or where you driving this when motor went bad ?

The engine was OK when I bought the truck in 2006.  I blew the engine in January of 2013 when I ran it out coolant, not knowing the water pump failed.  There was no coolant leak the morning I took off for Tucson.  The water pump shaft seal must have had a catastrophic failure about 45 minutes down the freeway.  There was a noise but I thought it was the idler pulley.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 30, 2017, 02:26:05 PM
Carb. ;)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 30, 2017, 03:13:13 PM
Is it wrong for Me to enjoy the blind leading the blind.  :rofl2:
Here is some advice. Go back to basics, what does it take to fire a cylinder?
We have been over this before.
#1
#2
#3
#4
Fill in the blanks.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Mar 30, 2017, 03:34:26 PM
Are you running platinums or coppers?

Swap the injector number 1 to injector number 3 or 4 to eliminate or isolate injector problem.
If nothing changes, swap injector plug 1 and 2 if possible.
If nothing changes between the injector swap, I would swap spark plugs between 2 cylinders and if nothing, then wires (would be an unlikely problem after all the spark tests you have made, but is quick and worth doing still to completely eliminate the spark plug or the wire as being the issue)

Don't remove the harness before you have isolated it to be the problem, you'll come out a better mecanic and knowing your truck even more once you've found and fixed the problem.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 30, 2017, 03:57:24 PM
I have an extra 22R intake manifold.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 30, 2017, 04:36:10 PM
When you set your valves, What method did You use?
Do You have a small green propain bottle?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 30, 2017, 05:09:25 PM

Do You have a small green propain bottle?

I don't know about you, but I use anti-pain bottles..........

 :cheese:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 30, 2017, 05:59:55 PM
I don't know about you, but I use anti-pain bottles..........

 :cheese:
If He has a propain bottle and a torch adapter I can show Him an amazing diagnostic trick. also a long piece of correctly sized hose
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 30, 2017, 06:25:47 PM
Is it wrong for Me to enjoy the blind leading the blind.  :rofl2:
Here is some advice. Go back to basics, what does it take to fire a cylinder?
We have been over this before.
#1
#2
#3
#4
Fill in the blanks.

Push
squeeze
bang
blow
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 30, 2017, 06:27:00 PM
Push
squeeze
bang
blow
To simple. Good Try
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 06:41:05 PM
Are you running platinums or coppers?

Swap the injector number 1 to injector number 3 or 4 to eliminate or isolate injector problem.
If nothing changes, swap injector plug 1 and 2 if possible.
If nothing changes between the injector swap, I would swap spark plugs between 2 cylinders and if nothing, then wires (would be an unlikely problem after all the spark tests you have made, but is quick and worth doing still to completely eliminate the spark plug or the wire as being the issue)

Don't remove the harness before you have isolated it to be the problem, you'll come out a better mecanic and knowing your truck even more once you've found and fixed the problem.



I had installed a new set of platinums when I first tried to fire the engine.  I replaced them with a new set of NGK OEM replacements.

Yeah, I understand the idea of swapping to test, but each time I swap, I will have to remove and re-install the chamber, throttle body, fuel rail, and 2 1/2 pages of parts, hose, and connectors!

If I am going to remove the chamber and t-body to get at the injectors, I will test them and the connectors and then, if necessary, open up the wire harness loom.

I suspect that the injector is plugged, partially plugged, or just not firing.

The spark plug is getting spark and there is sufficient cylinder compression to fire an adequate mixture.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 06:55:10 PM
When you set your valves, What method did You use?
Do You have a small green propain bottle?

Set the valve lash?  I used the FSM method, with a feeler gauge.

Yes, I have a green propane bottle and torch adapter.  Is your "trick" the one used for finding a vacuum leak?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 07:01:41 PM
I have an extra 22R intake manifold.  Just sayin'.

I may be converting to a carb'd engine!  Let me know if you need to sell it. .... just think'n.  :driving:

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 30, 2017, 07:05:16 PM
Possible causes for Your Issue based on Your testing.
Flat cam (I hope its not and EB cam,  :shake:)
Valves on that cyl. Leaking or to tight.
Vacuum leak to that cyl. (To much air will also put out the fire)
Plugged intake port (a Rag  :qtip:)
Or a bad Injector (You can pick the reason)

Have You checked the resistance value of the injector? Easy test
If Your interested I can show You how to make a cheap tool that will allow you to run the engine off of propain for testing purposes. All you have to do is ask. It works great I do it all the time when Diaging a failed injector.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 30, 2017, 07:08:17 PM
Set the valve lash?  I used the FSM method, with a feeler gauge.

Yes, I have a green propane bottle and torch adapter.  Is your "trick" the one used for finding a vacuum leak?

Gnarls.
I suspect You bought an engine Builder cam Didn't You.
Try adjusting all the valves again making sure each valve is adjusted when you are on the back side of the cam lobe. This exact same thing happended to me and is why I will never use a crap EB cam again.
poor cam grind is likely your problem. If you adjust it on the back side of each lobe it will run on all 4 cyl.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 07:28:12 PM
I suspect You bought an engine Builder cam Didn't You.
Try adjusting all the valves again making sure each valve is adjusted when you are on the back side of the cam lobe. This exact same thing happended to me and is why I will never use a crap EB cam again.
poor cam grind is likely your problem. If you adjust it on the back side of each lobe it will run on all 4 cyl.

It is funny you should mention the camshaft.. .because I didn't like the fact that the lobes seemed to be off from the rockers.  And for some reason I kept thinking this mis-fire had something to do with the head or the valves.... as I have mentioned. If it is a "defective" camshaft, I will be very surprised.  I would have to have a very serious conversation with Tod at engbldr.

Thank you for your input.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 07:34:07 PM
... Try adjusting all the valves again making sure each valve is adjusted when you are on the back side of the cam lobe.

So I should rotate the crank pulley to each valve to be adjusted, then rotate the crank further so the rocker is sitting how far down on the back side, off the nose, of just number one cylinder?

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 07:38:33 PM
I won't be able to re-adjust the valve lash until tomorrow afternoon.

Adjusting the valve lash on the back side of the lobe, which will be lower on the nose. That adjustment will effectively tighten the valve lash, which will push the intake valve open sooner and extend the top of the valve into the chamber.  I am concerned that it could push the valve into the top of the piston.

Before I do this, I will need to have a conversation a few people who are smarter than me.
 
Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 08:00:21 PM
I suspect You bought an engine Builder cam Didn't You.
Try adjusting all the valves again making sure each valve is adjusted when you are on the back side of the cam lobe. This exact same thing happended to me and is why I will never use a crap EB cam again.
poor cam grind is likely your problem. If you adjust it on the back side of each lobe it will run on all 4 cyl.

Please define "back side of the cam lobe"

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 30, 2017, 08:03:00 PM
Adjust the valve lash with each cylinder at TDC compression stroke.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 30, 2017, 08:09:11 PM
Adjust the valve lash with each cylinder at TDC compression stroke.


Are you sure???   :willynilly:

Gnarls.  :headscratch:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Mar 30, 2017, 08:12:07 PM
Yep,   that's when the spark goes off..........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 30, 2017, 08:54:17 PM
Man oh man.
There is a peak to the lobe (the tallest part)
You should be adjusting each valve on the back side (the complete opposite of the peak)
This is how it's been done for years.
??? You honestly still don't trust Me ???
I'm hurt.
The cam grinds that I have received from EB have bin imprecise. The last engine I built for a customer 22re had a dead
Miss on cyl ? Hell I think it could have been #1
I found that if I readjusted the valves loose it would fire that cyl.
I put a dial indicator on the lobe and it would start to open a small amount then close then open again. This was caused by a horribly shaped lobe.
I love EB and have tremendous respect for what they do and the parts they sell.
I have two exceptions. The Cam shafts (poor quality) and the gaskets (especially the notebook paper thin timing cover gaskets)
Best of luck gnarls
It's all going to work out.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Mar 30, 2017, 09:35:26 PM
I had installed a new set of platinums when I first tried to fire the engine.  I replaced them with a new set of NGK OEM replacements.

Yeah, I understand the idea of swapping to test, but each time I swap, I will have to remove and re-install the chamber, throttle body, fuel rail, and 2 1/2 pages of parts, hose, and connectors!

I suspect that the injector is plugged, partially plugged, or just not firing.
Gnarls.

You should only have to remove the rad hose and possibly the t-stat housing to reach the #1 injector, you should then be able to test the wiring harness and the resistance of the injector w/o having to disassemble anything else.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 02:26:53 AM
Man oh man.... You should be adjusting each valve on the back side (the complete opposite of the peak)
This is how it's been done for years.


 :haha:  :)bestgen4runner

Holy crapity!!  That's why my engines have always ran like a raped-ape!!!!  :yikes:

Gnarls.  :willynilly:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 02:29:37 AM
You should only have to remove the rad hose and possibly the t-stat housing to reach the #1 injector, you should then be able to test the wiring harness and the resistance of the injector w/o having to disassemble anything else.

Hey Snowtoy,

Yeah... I figured I could get to number #1 that way.

I appreciate the input.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 02:34:38 AM

??? You honestly still don't trust Me ???... I'm hurt.


Don't be hurt, Grasshopper  :therethere: ... I don't trust anyone  :shake:... and only barely trust MYSELF  :gap:.... and when I do trust myself.. it's "trust but verify".  :thumbs:

Gnarls.  :clap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 02:41:02 AM
... The cam grinds that I have received from EB have bin imprecise.

I have not visually looked at gobs of camshafts from different manufacturers so I don't have a big comparison.... but...

Again, when I first received the head with cam installed, I wasn't impressed with the "look" of the camshaft.  It looked like a rough casting.  The lobe surface seemed a little too rough. Then when I installed the rocker rack and saw how far off the rockers were laterally from the cam lobes, I was more concerned about the "quality" and preciseness.

I had a conversation with Tod at engbldr about it.

In my opinion, the head and camshaft in a 22 is one of the most important components for top performance and longevity.  Now at $5,000+ invested in this rebuild, several hundred dollars either way means diddly squat to me and the number hours invested.  I rebuilt this engine with the idea of not compromising on quality.

I could have just purchased the stage 2 head from 22RE Performance at a slightly higher price, but now wondering if that would have been the less risky choice.  I really like their detailed list of parts and assembly.

Hindsight can really change your perspective.

I'm tempted to get a degree wheel and mic the camshaft and see what it looks like in thousandths of an inch, and check the actual lift, duration, etc.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 02:57:39 AM
... I found that if I readjusted the valves loose it would fire that cyl. 

The valve lash spec by engbldr on this 261C cam is I=..007" - E=.009" - that is one of the tightest valve lash specs I've seen for a 22 cam.  Adjusting the valve lash loose should *effectively* reduce designed overlap at spec'd valve lash.  I'll try 9 and 11 this afternoon - after I do some testing on the injector connector.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 03:29:12 AM

The cam grinds that I have received from EB have bin imprecise.


In my early days I worked in the engineering department for the Flight Test Division at Hughes Aircraft Company in Culver City, CA.  The amount and level of quality control, quality assurance, and quality testing was amazing!

I have no idea how many camshafts or heads engbldr sells.. but I wonder when the last time Tod or Ted did a quality assurance check and specs check on their camshafts after receiving them from their supplier?  Or would they do a check after installing a camshaft and building their RV head?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 03:37:02 AM
... It's all going to work out. 

Yeah... it's probably just a bad connector/connection on #1 injector.... *fingers crossed*  :crossed: :D

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Mar 31, 2017, 07:40:04 AM
I may be converting to a carb'd engine!  Let me know if you need to sell it. .... just think'n.  :driving:

Gnarls.  :gap:

I'm positive you will figure out your issue in the next page or so of this thread and end up loving your 22re for yeas to come.  If you do end up wanting a carb 22R manifold I will trade you for a pound of nice coffee beans :).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 08:56:20 AM
I'm positive you will figure out your issue in the next page or so of this thread and end up loving your 22re for yeas to come.  If you do end up wanting a carb 22R manifold I will trade you for a pound of nice coffee beans :).

Hey H8PVMNT,


Thanks for the positivity.

The intake manifold for coffee beans....

So...

1 - you are being very generous.  :beerchug:

2- coffee beans in Montana are extremely rare and very expensive.  :o

3- The manifold may or may not work.  ::)

4-  You have so many 22R intake manifolds and limited space you need to get rid of some. :gap:

OR.... you want another "tweaker" pal running a carb'd engine. :dancing:

Gnarls. :thumbs:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Mar 31, 2017, 09:15:36 AM
Less Talk and more fixing!  :red_eyes:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 10:20:56 AM
Less Talk and more fixing!  :red_eyes:

Okie Dokie Smokie... I will be all over my engine like a duck-on-a-bug at about 4:48pm today!!!   :thumbs:

Gnarls. :usa:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Mar 31, 2017, 05:08:35 PM
:haha:  :)bestgen4runner

Holy crapity!!  That's why my engines have always ran like a raped-ape!!!!  :yikes:

Gnarls.  :willynilly:

I can't tell if your reaction is an epiphany of past sins or you're thinking Chris is wrong because your engines have performed so well.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Mar 31, 2017, 05:34:30 PM
https://www.yotatech.com/f116/3-noid-light-22re-270857/ I cheap noid light
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 06:35:20 PM
https://www.yotatech.com/f116/3-noid-light-22re-270857/ I cheap noid light

Hi ovrarok,

Yes, I saw that.  It's a cool trick.  I just don't want to spend the time chasing parts and putting it together.... I'm too lazy.

I will justify my purchase of a NOID kit by using MY labor at "no out of pocket" cost to rebuild my engine.  That's how I have justified buying thousands of $$$ worth of "tools" over many years.

For example... I could have paid my tranny shop and extra $200 to remove and re-install my 5-speed when I had them rebuild it.  Instead I bought a $50 tranny jack from Harbor Freight and removed it and re-installed it myself.

I saved $150 and I got a new tranny jack to add to my garage "tools".  :thumbs:

Thank you for the input.  :)

Gnarls.  :D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Mar 31, 2017, 06:40:28 PM
I can't tell if your reaction is an epiphany of past sins or you're thinking Chris is wrong because your engines have performed so well.

Is he NOT joking about adjusting the valve lash at the bottom of the base circle of the camshaft?

And, most of my engines have performed very well to extraordinarily well.... so I must be doing something right.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 01, 2017, 06:59:59 AM
UPDATE 4-1-17

Problem SOLVED!!

My next door neighbor has been bugging me to buy my truck for several years.

Yesterday, he said: "How much would it take?"

I said:  "It's worth $10,000, but for you I will sell it for $9,000!"..... so to my utter shock 'n awe... he said: "I'll have the cash for you night!"  :yikes:

So, now what do I do?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :disturbed:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Apr 01, 2017, 07:27:14 AM
$9000 can buy a running truck.  Or a good used one, and a rebuilt motor.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 01, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
$9000 can buy a running truck.  Or a good used one, and a rebuilt motor.

So my truck isn't worth $9,000?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :-\
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Apr 01, 2017, 12:17:28 PM
"April Fool's", joke perhaps?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 01, 2017, 12:36:21 PM
"April Fool's", joke perhaps?

Heheheheheh..... APRIL FOOLS!!!  :gap: :moon:


Gnarls. :ha_ha:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 01, 2017, 01:00:02 PM
Less Talk and More fixing! 2nd request.  :hammer:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 01, 2017, 01:12:51 PM
Less Talk and More fixing! 2nd request.  :hammer:

Talking = Fixing X Fixing = Talking

Basic equation for online forum Bravo Sierra.  :moon:

Gnarls.  :burnout:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 01, 2017, 07:24:57 PM
UPDATE 4-1-17 PM

Experience is the Mother of education!  And, I don’t have much with my Toyota trucks…. Just haven’t had to “work” on them much.

I believe I have uncovered the mystery misfire.

It looks like one of the metal bifurcated contacts inside the injector connector is broken off… so only one contact on the injector connector was connected to the two injector teminals.

The ohms tested on the connector at 1.9 (FSM says 1.5 to 3.0 ohms) – so I assume there is no issue, at this point, with the wires inside the harness.

I don’t think there is enough room to get the #1 injector connector off the injector without removing the thermostat housing, TPS, and hoses.  The length of the pigtail is not long enough to connect the Noid light on it anyway… so the Noid light test using the one in the kit I bought is useless for this test.  The one that ovrarok linked would work, because you could make the length of the wires what you need.  Once you get a Noid light connected, you would still have to re-install the thermostat housing, TPS, and hoses so you could start the engine and pulse the injector connector with the Noid light plugged in.  So in my opinion, the Noid light test for this 22RE would not be practical.

So what I have learned knowing what I know NOW….

If I could do a rewind on this project and before dropping in the engine…

1 – I would have replaced all of the injector connectors BEFORE installing the intake manifold and chamber and t-body.  Even if they all looked good, I would have taken the time to cut, solder, heat shrink, and test the new connectors – it is just not worth the hassle of those 31 year old brittle connectors failing.

2 – I would have ohm checked all the new injector connectors to make sure there is NO problem with the wiring in the harness.

3 – I would NOT have purchased the Noid light kit – for this diagnosis.

So for those of you who may read this and do a rebuild, or any kind of maintenance where you have to pull the injector connectors on an 20 or 30 year old 22R-E or 22R-TE, if you don’t replace the injector connectors, you should visually check the contacts inside each connector, then ohm check each one – BEFORE installing the chamber and throttle body on the engine.

You can see in the photo that the plastic housing is broken and the wire spring grooves are completely missing.  You can also see where the contact is broken off.

I believe there is enough room so I can cut and solder on a new connector and then ohm check it.

And, while I have the TPS off, I will replace the two stock little screws with allen screws!! That bottom one is almost impossible to get to!!!

I’ll post up photos when I’m finished.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 01, 2017, 08:02:34 PM
 :crossed:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Apr 01, 2017, 08:36:00 PM
New injector plugs are $6.99 at Oreily's or $4.44 on Rockauto.  I would go with a walk in store, so you know they will fit. 


I would send you my spare harness, but its for 1988, and thats the one year they had to be different. 



I would pull the upper intake, and unplug the injectors, and check them all, and replace.  Then check resistance in the wires.  Put it all back together, and should take care of the issue. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 02, 2017, 03:08:54 AM
New injector plugs are $6.99 at Oreily's or $4.44 on Rockauto.  I would go with a walk in store, so you know they will fit. 


I would send you my spare harness, but its for 1988, and thats the one year they had to be different. 



I would pull the upper intake, and unplug the injectors, and check them all, and replace.  Then check resistance in the wires.  Put it all back together, and should take care of the issue. 

Hi Cheesemaker,

Yes, I'm going to buy a pig tail connector this morning at one of my local parts stores.... if they have one in stock. It always seemed strange that these auto parts stores don't carry much stock for the 22s... one of THE most popular globally distributed engines ever built and STILL running!!

I very much appreciate the offer on your wire harness.  You might consider holding on to that if you need it as a spare or trading or selling it when you need to.... they appear to be rare and not being manufactured as a direct replacement.  And, as I mentioned, the idea of replacing an entire wire harness would seem like a bad nightmare to me.

I agree that I SHOULD pull the chamber and replace them, BUT... I've put so much time into assembly that I will just replace the #1 connector, at this point, and fire the engine to finish the break-in.  Now that I know of the potential connector issues, I will be on alert.

Thanks for the input.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 02, 2017, 03:29:13 AM
:crossed:

10-4 on fingers crossed!!  :beerchug:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 02, 2017, 05:46:27 AM
Hey :)bestgen4runner,

So you posted this, I assume just jokingly.  :greengrin:

*quote* Is it wrong for Me to enjoy the blind leading the blind.   
Here is some advice. Go back to basics, what does it take to fire a cylinder?
We have been over this before.
#1
#2
#3
#4
Fill in the blanks. *unquote*


The blind is me.  To me there was no one leading the blind, just offering suggestions and double checking common mistakes, right?  :beerchug:

By that post I had already established that:

#1 – the #1 cylinder had spark
#2  - the #1 cylinder had sufficient compression
#3 – the engine started so it had enough starting RPM
#4 – So…#1 cylinder was most likely not getting enough fuel or too much fuel

So at that point we were passed “going back to basics” , right?  :psss:

Then you posted:

*Quote*  Try adjusting all the valves again making sure each valve is adjusted when you are on the back side of the cam lobe. This exact same thing happended to me and is why I will never use a crap EB cam again.
poor cam grind is likely your problem. If you adjust it on the back side of each lobe it will run on all 4 cyl. *Unquote*

*quote*  Man oh man.
There is a peak to the lobe (the tallest part)
You should be adjusting each valve on the back side (the complete opposite of the peak)
This is how it's been done for years. *unquote*

Please explain how you adjusted the valve lash by setting the valve lash spec on bottom of the cam lobe at the base circle of the camshaft?  :dunno:

So why would a gas soaked spark plug NOT fire the mixture….???

I suspect, and just my weird thinking, the reason that when I immediately pulled the plugs after first firing the engine, and noted that 2, 3, and 4 were firing, and #1 was not, but seemed wet, smelled like gas, and dried quickly in the air – is because the injector plunger was getting just enough fuel pressure to slightly dribble gas into the chamber.  Because the injector was not firing, the fuel was not atomized enough to actually combust with a proper A/F mixture.  :dunno:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 02, 2017, 06:27:52 PM
UPDATE:  4-2-17 PM

AutoZone had 1 injector connector in stock.  I cut the old injector connector off, soldered it on and sealed solder joints with shrink tube.

That fixed the no-fire on cylinder #1.

The engine only had about 20 minutes of run time since initial firing.  I took it for very short test run, about 1/2 mile.  It had an unexpected miss from idle to about 3,000 RPM and slight blubber in the exhaust on deceleration.

Back in the garage I pulled the spark plugs and they looked fine.  I timed the ignition and took it for a longer test to get more gas, then took in for a longer drive on the back roads.  I kept it under 55 MPH and varied the speed.  By about 10 miles the miss went away, and it had better throttle response - but it did not seem to be as perky as I thought it should and it didn’t feel smooth.  After about 20 miles I tach’d it to 4000 several times in 1st and 2nd.   At about 40 miles I drove down the freeway 4 miles at 65 MPH and the truck started vibrating badly.  I’m not sure what the cause is… maybe the tires have flat spots because it sat for over 4 years.  I noticed a sharp clank at clutch start, and when I backed up into the garage.  So now the engine has about 45 miles on it.

I need to find the clank, fix the fuel gauge, and have Discount Tires check out the tires.  Then I can take it for longer drive to get some miles on it.

I don’t see any leaks!  It starts up and idles nice.

I feel much better that its running, but it does have a little more noise than I think it should have.  It doesn’t sound like rockers or loose valve lash.  It’s more like a clunk.  I don’t like the sound.

So I’ve got some things to fix before I will start driving it.

In the Noid Light Kit, the light for the 1986 22RE is one I circled in yellow..... Bosch2.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: fireitup on Apr 02, 2017, 06:46:23 PM
Here's to progress! :beerchug: Nice work.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: fireitup on Apr 02, 2017, 06:58:56 PM
Oh and on the note about your tires... My 82 has been sitting for about a year (various reasons for that), and the tires developed a baaaad case of dry rot. Be careful with stagnant tires!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/d09d1c76edc58888f6c99bc4715a32ac.jpg)

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 02, 2017, 08:07:30 PM
Probably tires, but not flat spot.   Flat spots go away once tires warm up.     Either balance weight (hopefully) or see above....

Misfire might be another iffy connector.

Clunk: driveshaft splines loose (did you relube shaft?),   loose bolts, or u-joint bad.

As for perky,  the engine has more friction now (breakin) so you lose some there; and the ECU is still learning the new setup.....
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Apr 02, 2017, 08:08:11 PM
 :beerchug: glad you got it running
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 03, 2017, 04:01:24 AM
Here's to progress! :beerchug: Nice work.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk



Hey fireitup,

Yeah... thank you.  I really appreciate all the good input and encouragement.  :greengrin:

Gnarls. :D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 03, 2017, 04:36:16 AM
Probably tires, but not flat spot.   Flat spots go away once tires warm up.     Either balance weight (hopefully) or see above....

Misfire might be another iffy connector.

Clunk: driveshaft splines loose (did you relube shaft?),   loose bolts, or u-joint bad.

As for perky,  the engine has more friction now (breakin) so you lose some there; and the ECU is still learning the new setup.....

Hey emsvitil,

The vibration...  Well, before I parked the truck in 2013, the tires were fresh and balanced well.  I cleaned and relubed the U-joints and spline and was careful with re-installing them, so I'd be surprised if they are loose.  The amount of vibration feels like tires, but could be in drive line.  I will check it out, and then have Discount Tire look at the tires... geezzz I would hate to have to buy brand new tires again!... but I should have blocked up the truck.

The clank at start and back up...  that sounds like very sharp metallic clank with a very slight lag.  I will check motor mounts and drive line.  I may have to put it up on jack stands and get under the truck with my wife doing the shifting test?

The misfire... it has a very slight misfire during low RPM between off idle and 25 MPH, just driving slowly in 1st gear. I don't think its spark or ignition timing.  It could be air/fuel mixture? I will pull the plugs this afternoon.  I will do some diags on the ignitor and coil.  Yes, the issue could be 3 other bad injector connectors!.. or some wires in the harness that are not getting a solid connection or ground.

I am still wondering about this cam profile.  IF, after about 200 miles, and all my normal "tweaking" and verifying all systems are performing normal, it doesn't smooth out, I may consider swapping in a different camshaft.  I can re-install the stock cam that was in the old head as a test.

I don't have the pleasure of previously breaking in a rebuilt 22RE so I don't have anything to compare to.  I realize at only 45 or so miles on a break in its still "stiff".  I have read that the ECU "learns", but I would like to understand what EXACTLY does that mean.  The ECU and input from the sensors have electrical ranges and limitations - what are those limitations?

This rebuild has been a real challenge and interesting.  I sincerely appreciate all the input, great advice, shared knowledge, and the poking fun at me.  My truck is my second "hobby" right now, and it would not be as fun if it weren't for all of you who contribute to my experience!!  Thank you with HUGE-ness!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 03, 2017, 04:45:28 AM
:beerchug: glad you got it running

Hey ovrarok,

Thank you!  Yes, it felt better today being able to drive it again.  I still have some "bugs" to work out, but I guess that comes with keeping an old truck alive.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on Apr 03, 2017, 06:37:23 AM
Glad it's coming along. Do you have an EGR valve on that engine? If so, try disconnecting the vacuum to it and testing for the misfire. If you added larger pistons, valves, header your vacuum will likely increase and could be causing the EGR valve to open too soon. I had to put a restrictor in mine for it to run right
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 03, 2017, 07:37:05 AM
Now this is more like it!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 03, 2017, 08:57:35 AM
Glad it's coming along. Do you have an EGR valve on that engine? If so, try disconnecting the vacuum to it and testing for the misfire. If you added larger pistons, valves, header your vacuum will likely increase and could be causing the EGR valve to open too soon. I had to put a restrictor in mine for it to run right

Yes, it has an EGR valve.  I will check it.  And, the cam profile can change the vacuum.

Thanks-a-million!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 03, 2017, 09:00:09 AM
Now this is more like it!


If this engine doesn't perform like it should, I may do an engine swap..... or go to a carb.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 03, 2017, 01:38:04 PM
Note:

For as long as I can remember I've had an occasional 'ting' in the driveline somewhere.    Noticed when windows open (esp. rear), no radio, and changing direction of travel (F->R,R->F).    Still haven't figured it out, but it hasn't hurt anything..........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Apr 03, 2017, 02:24:18 PM
Hey emsvitil,

The vibration...  Well, before I parked the truck in 2013, the tires were fresh and balanced well.  I cleaned and relubed the U-joints and spline and was careful with re-installing them, so I'd be surprised if they are loose.  The amount of vibration feels like tires, but could be in drive line.  I will check it out, and then have Discount Tire look at the tires... geezzz I would hate to have to buy brand new tires again!... but I should have blocked up the truck.

The clank at start and back up...  that sounds like very sharp metallic clank with a very slight lag.  I will check motor mounts and drive line.  I may have to put it up on jack stands and get under the truck with my wife doing the shifting test?

The misfire... it has a very slight misfire during low RPM between off idle and 25 MPH, just driving slowly in 1st gear. I don't think its spark or ignition timing.  It could be air/fuel mixture? I will pull the plugs this afternoon.  I will do some diags on the ignitor and coil.  Yes, the issue could be 3 other bad injector connectors!.. or some wires in the harness that are not getting a solid connection or ground.

I am still wondering about this cam profile.  IF, after about 200 miles, and all my normal "tweaking" and verifying all systems are performing normal, it doesn't smooth out, I may consider swapping in a different camshaft.  I can re-install the stock cam that was in the old head as a test.

I don't have the pleasure of previously breaking in a rebuilt 22RE so I don't have anything to compare to.  I realize at only 45 or so miles on a break in its still "stiff".  I have read that the ECU "learns", but I would like to understand what EXACTLY does that mean.  The ECU and input from the sensors have electrical ranges and limitations - what are those limitations?

This rebuild has been a real challenge and interesting.  I sincerely appreciate all the input, great advice, shared knowledge, and the poking fun at me.  My truck is my second "hobby" right now, and it would not be as fun if it weren't for all of you who contribute to my experience!!  Thank you with HUGE-ness!

Gnarls.

The metallic sound on take off/back up is usually indicative of bad u-joints, even freshly greased worn ones will "tink"

As far as a lot of the sounds go, they were likely there before, its just been 4yrs since you heard them, and now with the "new engine" you are hyper sensitive to all the noises you are hearing.

Can't judge the performance until at least 500 miles have passed, by then the engine should have gone through several heat cycles, breaking everything in, until then as long as it runs smoothly, wouldn't touch it.  Also won't be able to judge its true performance until you run 4.56's for the 31's, or slap on a set of 28's.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 03, 2017, 03:23:53 PM
Yeah they can "tink" for a long time if you keep grease in them.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 03, 2017, 06:40:35 PM
Note:

For as long as I can remember I've had an occasional 'ting' in the driveline somewhere.    Noticed when windows open (esp. rear), no radio, and changing direction of travel (F->R,R->F).    Still haven't figured it out, but it hasn't hurt anything..........

"It's a big ting" (Cool Runnings 1993)...  :greengrin:

In all my vehicles, including 5 trucks, I never had a "ting" in the drive train that was normal.   :shake:

There will be NO permanent, occasional, or abnormal tinging in my truck. :thumbs:

Now... In my trucks with Detroit Lockers and Lock Rights... I had clunking and banging... but that was normal.  :gap:

No ting is a good ting. :beerchug:

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 03, 2017, 06:43:08 PM
Yeah they can "tink" for a long time if you keep grease in them.

Only if I use "tink grease"!  :rofl:

Gnarls. :D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 03, 2017, 07:13:18 PM
The metallic sound on take off/back up is usually indicative of bad u-joints, even freshly greased worn ones will "tink"

As far as a lot of the sounds go, they were likely there before, its just been 4yrs since you heard them, and now with the "new engine" you are hyper sensitive to all the noises you are hearing.

Can't judge the performance until at least 500 miles have passed, by then the engine should have gone through several heat cycles, breaking everything in, until then as long as it runs smoothly, wouldn't touch it.  Also won't be able to judge its true performance until you run 4.56's for the 31's, or slap on a set of 28's.

Hey Snowtoy,

Yes, could be U-joints, but there was zero tinking when I parked it.  If a U-joint goes bad I usually get a mild vibration. 
The U-joints in the rear drive shaft are fairly fresh, but since starting this rebuild, I won't be shocked at anything that is unexpected.

I agree that I may be hypersensitive, but I've always been hypersensitive to noises, vibrations, and leaks.  Even though its been 4 years, I have a vivid auditory memory of my engine sounds.  This is my 3rd truck with a 22, so I'm very familiar with how it sounds when its running like it should.

Whether or not it takes 500 miles to break in a rebuilt 22RE is subjective.  I should know more in a few months.  I do believe, being around race built engines and high performance engines most of my life, that I can tell if an engine is "feeling" right.  The throttle response at this point is not what I expected and I believe there is some tweaking I will need to do, but I expected tweaking.

I certainly can judge its performance without changing tire sizes or gear ratios.  I can compare the engine's performance before the rebuild because it will have the same tires and same gear ratio.  I may end up with a lower ring & pinion ratio, but that was not my intention when I started this rebuild.

Arguably... Changing gear ratios or tire sizes has nothing to do with the engine's performance. At this point, I am only interested in the engine's performance, NOT the truck's performance with gears and tires.  If I built two 22RE engines and tested them on a SuperFlo 902S engine dyno, and one produced 110 HP and one produced 150 HP, which one would make my 5-speed truck perform better if my truck had 31" tires and 4:10 ring & pinion?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 04, 2017, 04:25:09 AM
...  Also won't be able to judge its true performance until you run 4.56's for the 31's, or slap on a set of 28's.

Hi Snowtoy,

Gear ratios.. We have already discussed this topic… but for more insight into my thinking…

I realize that changing the ring & pinion in my truck closer to factory stock (smaller tire diameter) will improve my seat-of-the-pants drivability.

This is just my weird thinking… 
There are thousands of posts on forums discussing the modifications of 20/22s. I believe the 22R carb’d engine will allow more power gains with relatively simple modifications – intake, cam, and exhaust – than the 22RE ECU controlled EFI. In my own experience with simple mods (Double Gnarly Air Filter Mod) to my 22R was very noticeable.  H8PVMNT's thread on tweaking a carb’d engine proves to me that simple modifications can produce significant power improvements and throttle response.

In the early design of the 22s, I believe that the 22RE, with its sensors and ECU, “controls” and restricts power output. The reason is it’s designed to meet very strict USA, Federal and State emissions regulations and gas mileage.

So… when we attempt to modify it to get more juice out of it, the ECU says “Uh-Uh”.. “gotta keep those emissions and MPG in check!”  The 8 primary sensors (Air Flow Meter, Throttle Position Sensor, Water Thermo Sensor, Air Thermo Sensor, O2 Sensor, Start Injector Sensor, Start Injector Time Switch, Ignition Primary Signal, and Starter Signal) in a 1986 22RE input “data” to the ECU.  The ECU is programmed to keep engine output within a “boundary”.  My 1986 California Longbed Automatic 22RE was rated at 116 HP.  I don’t believe the Japanese engineers purposely designed the 1986 22RE and programmed the sensors and ECU, sold into the USA general automotive consumer market, to produce 150 HP… just my opinion.

Does the factory stock 22RE restrict performance gains produced with after market modifications designed to increase torque and HP?

The 22R, however, does not have the limiting controls of an ECU and sensor inputs.

I have been told by very reputable Toyota engine builders who “claim” that modifications to a 22RE will produce noticeable X to XX improvement in HP and Torque numbers.  However, I have also been told by very reputable Toyota engine builders who “claim” that basic modifications, i.e. cam and exhaust will NOT produce noticeable X to XX improvement.

And, of course there are all those people out there who “claim” (myself included) to experience noticeable power gains with their modications in both their 20R, 22R, and 22RE engines.

I have spent many hours doing mock dyno tests on my desktop dyno software.  I see numbers on paper and some have been substantiated by guys I’ve communicated with.

Here’s my bottom-line:  I want to find out for MYSELF what this engine will or will not produce – measured by my seat-of-the-pants butt dyno OR on a chassis dyno – with my specific engine modifications.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 04, 2017, 07:32:34 PM
UPDATE:  4-4-17 PM

I put another 20 miles on the engine today.  I tach'd it up to 5,000 RPMs 3 or 4 times :yikes:  I seems to have plenty of torque in 5th gear @ 2,000 RPM = about 53 MPH.

The vibration seems to be tires – crap!

It still doesn’t start from a cold start as quickly as it should… I will be doing some diags and fine tuning Thursday.

If this engine (with the 261C cam) produces the torque numbers at the RPMs as indicated on my Engine Analyzer software, it will be exactly where I want my torque range to be for 80 MPH in both 5th and 4th gears – with my stock 4.10 ring & pinion and 31” tires!!

For example, if I’m cruising down the freeway in 5th gear @ 80 MPH - the engine will be producing 152 lbs of torque at 3022 RPMs, which is the beginning of its predicted peak torque range.

If I start up a steep uphill climb, and I have to shift down to 4th gear, the RPMs about 3555, which is the end of the peak torque range, about 151 lbs of torque @ 80 MPH.  This engine should be perfectly happy at 3500 to 3600 RPM all day long.

Gnarls
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 05, 2017, 05:19:05 AM
Experience is a great teacher. 

As I work out the issues on my truck after this engine rebuild and having resurrected it from being stored for 4 years... I did more research on tire flat-spotting.

Well, it looks like I have stupidly have ruined my fresh set of Michelins. :smack:  According to what I've read, temporary flat-spotting is fairly common when a vehicle sits on it tires from overnight to several days.  :psss: PERMANENT flat-spotting can occur when a vehicle sits for several months!  :yikes:  I will do one more test and air up the tires to near max PSI, drive it down the freeway for an  hour or so and see what happens, but it appears that if the flat spots come out it will be a miracle! :crossed:

I have never "stored" a vehicle.  Experience is a great teacher.   Believing that I was going to store my truck for an extended period,  I should have drained my fuel tank and blocked up the truck.  I should have completely drained the coolant from the block.  :hammer:

By the time I get my truck where I want it, I will be over $6,000 invested since starting my rebuild.  :willynilly:

Gnarls. :spin:



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 05, 2017, 07:19:38 AM
I agree with everything except this statement.  :qtip:
"I should have completely drained the coolant from the block"
Please explain why?
I think You could cause more issues having the cooling system completely exposed.
I could see draining the cooling system and refilling with fresh.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Apr 05, 2017, 08:23:24 AM
You could also air the tires down a bit and force them to flex.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 05, 2017, 09:20:20 AM
You could also air the tires down a bit and force them to flex.

Did that.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Apr 05, 2017, 09:34:31 AM
Michelins are a waste of money.  When I worked at the tire shop, Michelins were the worst tire.  They loved to separate and blow out.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 05, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Michelins are a waste of money.  When I worked at the tire shop, Michelins were the worst tire.  They loved to separate and blow out.


Get outta TOWN!!  :yikes:

Gnarls.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 05, 2017, 11:22:10 AM
I agree with everything except this statement.  :qtip:
"I should have completely drained the coolant from the block"
Please explain why?
I think You could cause more issues having the cooling system completely exposed.
I could see draining the cooling system and refilling with fresh.

Over time the water and ethylene glycol will separate. And any air space will be get exposed to water vapor and moisture.. promoting rust!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 05, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
My BFG ATs sit for months at a time and don't flatspot.............................
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 05, 2017, 01:36:11 PM
My BFG ATs sit for months at a time and don't flatspot.............................

Yeah.. apparently the degree of flat-spotting depends on the structure of the tire.

I think even though I had them air'd up to 45 PSI, they are fubar'd after 4 years!!  :thumbdown:

Gnarls.  :- :cheese:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 05, 2017, 02:01:16 PM
So, only use them off-road.

Might even smooth out the off-road driving.


 :think:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 05, 2017, 02:34:35 PM
So, only use them off-road.

Might even smooth out the off-road driving.


 :think:

Yes, I could use them off-road, but I would have to trailer the truck, because the vibration on the highway is horrible!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Apr 06, 2017, 07:11:28 AM
Jack up the axles and spin the tires by hand.  That will show you if you have a separation. 



The next time you are at a Costco or tire shop that sells Michelins, grab the sidewalls, and flex them.  Then push on the tread face.  There is nothing to Michelins.  Then compare it to another tire. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 06, 2017, 10:22:12 AM
...
The next time you are at a Costco or tire shop that sells Michelins, grab the sidewalls, and flex them.  Then push on the tread face.  There is nothing to Michelins.  Then compare it to another tire. 

Michelins are a waste of money.  When I worked at the tire shop, Michelins were the worst tire.  They loved to separate and blow out.

I am not a tire expert by any stretch, although I've been the consumer of all kinds of tires in a variety of applications for the past 50+ years, so I have experience with a number of major brands.

So far, I've been very happy with the Michelin tires I've purchased for both my Toyota cars and Toyota trucks.

For many years Michelin tires have been a top rated tire manufacturer by many tire distributors, test labs, and consumers.

Comparing a tire's performance by me "feeling" it may not be the most accurate way to discover it's quality.

Using "feel" by hand to evaluate the quality of an object or material may work for toilet paper, but could be deceptive for evaluating the performance of many different materials, substances, and parts.... examples:  carbon fiber vs aluminum, Kevlar vs leather, titanium vs steel, rayon vs cotton.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 07, 2017, 08:07:17 PM
I’m working on getting this engine fully broken in, and getting it tuned so it will start up like I believe it should.

My first 1986 4X4 Longbed Automatic, 22RE would start up every time without touching the gas pedal.. just turning the key.  And it didn’t matter what the outside air temp was.

Yesterday I tried adjusting idle screw on the throttle linkage according to LCE’s PDF – Throttle Position Tech & Adjustment Procedure.

It didn’t work for me.

So this afternoon I got the engine up to operating temp  I loosened the idle stop allen screw and nut on the throttle linkage and simply adjusted the screw with the allen wrench just before it cracked the throttle body butterfly, which would raise the idle RPM, as the screw sat on the damper.  Then I adjusted the idle screw valve on the throttle body so the idle RPM is about 800.

I will see how it “cold starts” tomorrow.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 08, 2017, 03:42:02 AM
Is there a chance the plug on your cold start injector is crusty like the others?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 08, 2017, 04:01:07 AM
Is there a chance the plug on your cold start injector is crusty like the others?

I inspected it during my rebuild, and it looked OK.. carbon on it, but I don't know "what" is should look like. I will pull it and look at it again.  As with most Toy 22RE parts, those little Toyota engineers are REALLY proud of that part!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 09, 2017, 03:24:47 AM
UPDATE:  4-9-17 am

I have almost 150 miles on the engine.  The flat spots on the tires don’t seem to get better and the shaking of the truck is too much, so I’m going to put a new set on… CRAP!

I notice that the engine bay gets very hot on the exhaust manifold side. I suspect there is some restriction and back pressure in the stock exhaust pipe from manifold back to the cat and muffler and really heating up the stock exhaust manifold.  With the larger valves and 261C cam, I know a header and opened exhaust is next on my list.

The engine cold started better yesterday after I adjusted the throttle linkage and closed the butterfly on the throttle body… but is still doesn’t start like it should.

I haven’t played with ignition timing yet, but I want to get few more hundred miles on the engine.  Right now the timing light says it’s advanced more than spec by about 5 degrees.

I will pull the spark plugs today and see what they look like, and re-check/adjust the valve lash.

I may be wrong (could be my hyper analytical syndrome), but I believe this engine should sound a little quieter.  The engine has a noise I don’t like. It’s constant and parallels RPM, like a bearing? I’m not sure yet where it’s coming from. I’ll use my engine stethoscope today and see if I can hone in on the sound.  I’m going to have a couple “engine builder experts” listen to it next week and see what they say.

It seems to rev nicely from off-idle to about 2500 RPM, then it pulls harder to about 4,500. It will rev easily to 5,000 and still has some left.  I’m surprised how much torque it has at 2000 RPM in 5th gear.

I filled the tank yesterday so I’ll be doing the first MPG check.  For the initial firing and first 100+ miles I had 91 octane in it, this fill up I put in 89.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 09, 2017, 04:17:50 AM
The sound could be alternator or water pump or power steering or AC or any of the idler pulleys........

Pull the belts off and see what happens.


How's the cat?   It could be the restriction.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 09, 2017, 04:30:20 AM
The sound could be alternator or water pump or power steering or AC or any of the idler pulleys........

Pull the belts off and see what happens.


How's the cat?   It could be the restriction.

Yeah....I eliminated those.  I think the sound is deeper...  A thump like one of the rods on the crankshaft?

Yeah... the cat could be plugged.  I'd have to fab a "test pipe".

Thanks for the input.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 09, 2017, 01:09:11 PM
UPDATE:  04-09-17 PM

The catalytic converter may have been restricting the exhaust flow.  The vibration from my flat spotted tires shook the ceramic honeycomb crap inside loose. I “fixed” it.  The engine seems to rev a little easier and I think the engine bay is a little less hot.  A ceramic coated header is near the top of my list for next purchase.

There is gear oil dripping out of the little rectangle weep hole at the bottom of the bellhousing. I assume the oil is coming out the input shaft seal.  So, I’ll be dropping the tranny and t-case.

The plugs look like they are running slightly hot and lean.  So I’ll be working on diagnosing a probable lean mixture problem.  Vacuum leak, Air Flow sensor, or O2 sensor, or ????... is it normal for an engine to run lean during break-in of  freshly rebuilt 22RE?

The resurrection of my truck after 4 years of storage has more unexpected surprises than I anticipated.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 10, 2017, 04:15:32 AM
It was probably the unburnt fuel from the #1 cylinder that burned up in the cat causing your problem......
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 10, 2017, 04:40:17 AM
It was probably the unburnt fuel from the #1 cylinder that burned up in the cat causing your problem......

Sure, that's possible.  The vibrations from the tires caused the honeycomb crap inside break loose and it was rattling around inside, blocking the exhaust flow.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 10, 2017, 05:18:31 AM
After melting from excess fuel.....

 :yupyup:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 10, 2017, 06:44:25 AM
After melting from excess fuel.....

 :yupyup:

Yeah... it's possible that an overly rich mixture was getting to the cat, but the number 1 injector was not getting it's normal amount of fuel. Also, the ECU was getting input from the O2 sensor, so it should have been leaning the fuel and mixture to the other three cylinders.

And, a cat typically will get an overly rich mixture at every cold start.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 10, 2017, 07:18:25 AM
When you have one cylinder pumping nothing but air, The 02 sensor sees lots of oxygen and less fuel. It considers this a lean mixture and in turn adds more fuel.  :psss:
The rich mixture at warm up has less of an effect on the cat because the cat is still cold.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Apr 10, 2017, 03:29:23 PM
When you have one cylinder pumping nothing but air, The 02 sensor sees lots of oxygen and less fuel. It considers this a lean mixture and in turn adds more fuel.  :psss:
The rich mixture at warm up has less of an effect on the cat because the cat is still cold.  :twocents:

Yes, I hope that does not cause a ring seating issue! From the pictures of the plugs, why they look lean and hot to you? I see a rich mixture , possibly too much timing , and perfect heat range.

The base ring looks sooty, unless that is oil deposits from the rings not being fully seated, the discoloration triangle on the ground strap looks too close to the threads, it should be in the middle of the curve on the ground strap, and there is no brown ring on the tip of the porcelain. The burn marks seem to go up 2-3 threads which shows optimal heat range. Not sure if I'm seeing correctly or if it's the picture.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 10, 2017, 03:49:09 PM
Yes, I hope that does not cause a ring seating issue! From the pictures of the plugs, why they look lean and hot to you? I see a rich mixture , possibly too much timing , and perfect heat range.

The base ring looks sooty, unless that is oil deposits from the rings not being fully seated, the discoloration triangle on the ground strap looks too close to the threads, it should be in the middle of the curve on the ground strap, and there is no brown ring on the tip of the porcelain. The burn marks seem to go up 2-3 threads which shows optimal heat range. Not sure if I'm seeing correctly or if it's the picture.
This is a fuel injected engine. Reading spark plugs is from the carb Days. Open that FI book I recommended to You.
You can monitor the air fuel ration while its happening. https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=RDxF4tX4ZY8
There is no need to read the plugs.  :hammer:
Also, You need much more time on those plugs to accurately get a readling.  :moon:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Apr 10, 2017, 05:30:59 PM
This is a fuel injected engine. Reading spark plugs is from the carb Days.

 :hammer: Completely forgot about that when replying. You can still get a good reading after 150 miles, but there is so much more to reading a spark plug than taking them out and looking at them closely, it is a deep skill that I don't have and unfortunetly one that is lost through time. Nothing better than a wideband o2 reading.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 10, 2017, 06:47:06 PM
When you have one cylinder pumping nothing but air, The 02 sensor sees lots of oxygen and less fuel. It considers this a lean mixture and in turn adds more fuel.  :psss:
The rich mixture at warm up has less of an effect on the cat because the cat is still cold.  :twocents:

Perhaps.. but I have a different thought…

First, my engine is most likely not operating at peak tune.  I don’t know for sure if the O2 sensor is working properly.  I don’t know for sure if the ECU is receiving the correct range of data input from ALL of the sensors.  I don’t know for sure what ECU “sees” and calculates if the 6 degrees of overlap (as indicated by engblr’s cam spec sheet for the 261C), very tight valve lash, and its profile.

Since shortly after I first fired the engine and immediately determined number cylinder was not firing the mixture, the number 1 plug appeared to “wet” with gas. So, is it possible that the O2 sensor WAS seeing a rich mixture and leaning out the mixture by shortening the two injector pulse time?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 10, 2017, 06:51:24 PM

The rich mixture at warm up has less of an effect on the cat because the cat is still cold.  :twocents:

So, are you saying that a rich mixture.. high unburned gasoline content.. does not "effect" the cat's designed purpose?  OR.. that a rich mixture does NOT effect the cat and break down the honeycomb??

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 10, 2017, 06:59:51 PM
The O2 sensor won't see a rich mixture with a misfire.    It will see all the O2 from the unburnt cylinder and interpret that as lean.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 10, 2017, 07:16:38 PM
:hammer: Completely forgot about that when replying. You can still get a good reading after 150 miles, but there is so much more to reading a spark plug than taking them out and looking at them closely, it is a deep skill that I don't have and unfortunetly one that is lost through time. Nothing better than a wideband o2 reading.

Good discussion... I enjoy getting into the weeds a little.

I am long ways from any expert spark plug reader... but...

I don't believe that the spark plugs have ANY clue when they fire the mixture inside a combustion chamber whether it comes from an injector or from the venturi and jets from a carb.  The spark plugs also have no clue how many miles on there is on the engine.  So reading a spark plug from and FI engine or a carb'd engine will most likely show the same "reading" analysis.  For the past 40+ years I've owned, maintained, and tuned both carb'd engines and FI engines, and the spark plugs can be reasonably accurately read based on basic visual color and plug electrodes and ceramic analysis.

Yes, a wide-band A/F gauge would be a great diagnostic and analysis tool.  I believe reading spark plugs today is probably more of lost art than it was 40 or 50 years ago.  I don't read many posts where a guy actually pulls his plugs to "see" what's going on with the mixture.  However, I don't think reading a spark plug to determine the results of basic combustion conditions going on inside of the chamber is that difficult.

In my "non-expert" opinion, the plugs looked like they were seeing a lean mixture and perhaps running a little on the hot side.

But with that said, I will happily defer to any expert opinion out there.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 10, 2017, 07:43:01 PM
The O2 sensor won't see a rich mixture with a misfire.    It will see all the O2 from the unburnt cylinder and interpret that as lean.




Perhaps I'm confused on how the O2 sensor works??

If number 1 injector was pumping or dribbling raw gas into the chamber and not firing (my wet #1 spark plug), would that unburned gas reach the O2 sensor? 

A rich mixture has less O2 (oxygen), so the O2 sensor sees a rich mixture, and sends the appropriate current to the ECU to shorten the injector pulse time to the chamber.... making a lean mixture.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 10, 2017, 07:58:18 PM
The mixture didn't burn in #1 cylinder.    All that unburned O2 mixes with the other cylinders making the overall mixture look lean.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 10, 2017, 08:11:13 PM
The mixture didn't burn in #1 cylinder.    All that unburned O2 mixes with the other cylinders making the overall mixture look lean.

The raw unburned gasoline has no O2, the vapor has some O2.  Whatever amount of air (mostly nitrogen) that was being pumped into exhaust manifold from number 1 cylinder was NOT enough to make the mixture look lean to the O2 sensor.

The spark plugs were not getting a rich mixture.  Please explain what the O2 sensor was seeing?

BUT.. that is history... I need to know why the chambers, based upon my thinking that the spark plugs look like they are seeing a lean mixture, are getting a lean mixture?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 10, 2017, 08:21:47 PM
HOT TIP:  When the tranny and t-case is dropped and it's not a freshly rebuilt transmission....

REPLACE THE INPUT SHAFT SEAL!!  :greengrin:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 11, 2017, 05:09:27 AM
The O2 sensor won't see a rich mixture with a misfire.

A misfire (chamber not firing the mixture) can be caused by several things, right?...

No spark = no fire
No fuel = no fire
Too much fuel = no fire
No air = no fire
Too much air = no fire
Too low compression = no fire
Ignition timing too far off = no fire

Which one of those misfires does the O2 sensor see as a rich mixture?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 11, 2017, 07:18:35 AM
A misfire (chamber not firing the mixture) can be caused by several things, right?...

No spark = no fire
No fuel = no fire
Too much fuel = no fire
No air = no fire
Too much air = no fire
Too low compression = no fire
Ignition timing too far off = no fire

Which one of those misfires does the O2 sensor see as a rich mixture?

Gnarls.
I won't attempt to break all that down.
In the simplest terms the 02 sensor does one thing and one thing only. It measures the amount of Oxygen in the exhaust. Nothing more nothing less. It will not and never has measured fuel. I am sure you could find an incredible amount of information on line if your interested. also there is another sensor called an A/F sensor it looks the same in almost every way but works off of amperage and not voltage. Don't get them confused.
When a cylinder misfires it is still pumping oxygen into the exhaust. Oxygen in the exhaust is interpreted by the ecu as a lean mixture and in turn adds more fuel. Its very simple if you remember that the 02 sensor only measures oxygen.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 11, 2017, 02:12:20 PM

Which one of those misfires does the O2 sensor see as a rich mixture?



NONE
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 12, 2017, 04:19:53 AM

NONE


OK.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 16, 2017, 06:48:16 PM
UPDATE:  4-16 PM

I removed and inspected the cold start injector.  I did not do the spray test, but it passed the resistance test.  I disconnected the battery for about 1 hour just to see if resetting the ECU and clearing any codes might help.

This time I shorted the Injector Test plug to turn on the fuel pump before starting the engine.

I *might* install a momentary push button switch under the dash to manually turn the fuel pump on before starting the engine.

It started much easier and quicker, but still does not do a fast idle.  I rechecked the ignition timing and it’s right on.

I will recheck/test the other sensors, and readjust the Throttle Position Sensor.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 16, 2017, 09:14:51 PM
I added a LARGE capacitor across the injector test plug so that it primes the system before starting the truck..........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 17, 2017, 06:48:04 AM
I added a LARGE capacitor across the injector test plug so that it primes the system before starting the truck..........

Hey emsvitil,

Can you please elaborate a little more on that?

Am I correct in understanding that if you short the test connector, it will power the fuel pump?

Thanks you.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 17, 2017, 10:18:35 AM
Hey emsvitil,

Can you please elaborate a little more on that?

Am I correct in understanding that if you short the test connector, it will power the fuel pump?

Thanks you.

Gnarls.

Correct.

With large capacitor, the fuel pump will run until the capacitor gets charged up.    Cheap timer.

I got capacitor from surplus store for $2.    Large is something like 20,000 MFD
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Apr 17, 2017, 06:19:03 PM
UPDATE:  4-16 PM

I removed and inspected the cold start injector.  I did not do the spray test, but it passed the resistance test.  I disconnected the battery for about 1 hour just to see if resetting the ECU and clearing any codes might help.

If you rig up a momentary toggle switch, you can test the cold start injector off the engine, still attached to the fuel line, to determine if it is operating correctly.

You can also use the toggle switch to fire the cold start injector, prior to a cold start, this will help to determine if your hard cold start issue is due to a sensor or the new cam.  If it fires right up, the timer switch sensor or water temp sensor is likely failing, even though they tested fine.  I just went through this with my '90 3.0.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 17, 2017, 07:09:58 PM
Remember the valve you removed and decided not to mess with. The one we both searched for a write up on.
That is the cause of your not having a fast idle at start up.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 20, 2017, 11:35:30 AM
UPDATE THURSDAY, APRIL 20:

I'm still frustrated with the engine.  It won't start like it should, and idle. The after it warms up it idles about 1100 RPM.  I still have to do some tests, but I'm REALLY beginning to NOT like this RE!! :maddest:

I get to go though the "Oh-boy-let's-see-if-Gnarls-can-figure-out-what-MamaECU-and-her-ugly-sisters-are-PMSing-about!" crap.

Well.... my flat spotted tires are gone…. and so is a big chunk out of checking account!!  :yikes:

Discount Tire just put a set of these on…
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 20, 2017, 11:56:05 AM
You should do a BFG KO2 (not running a spool) review. :)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 20, 2017, 12:08:48 PM
You should do a BFG KO2 (not running a spool) review. :)

Sure... I can report mileage, tread depth, wear pattern, PSI, mileage rotate, off-highway, wet/dry traction, ride comfort, noise.... what else??

Gnarls. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 20, 2017, 01:23:18 PM
Just all that and a superfluous amount of pictures indicating how much fun you have while wearing them out. I think you will love these where you live. They should be perfect.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Cheesemaker on Apr 20, 2017, 07:46:58 PM
My engine idles at 1000 rpm.  Doesn't matter if I adjust it down.  Within a week or so, its back up to 1000.  But if I have been driving it for a long time, it will idle down to 800.  I need to replace the oring on the idle adjuster. 


One thing my truck has always been good at, is starting.  Starts right up.  Unless its been sitting for a couple days.  Then it takes a couple seconds longer.  But within 2 seconds its running.  Hot or cold. 


Before long Gnarls gonna be a master at the 22RE.   :biggthumpup:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 21, 2017, 03:49:21 AM

Before long Gnarls gonna be a master at the 22RE.   :biggthumpup:

Cheesemaker... thank you for the vote of confidence.  I need that right now.  I'm frustrated.  I've been studying to figure out how to get this engine running like old 1986.  I mean... it's just metal and rubber with some gas and air pumped in it, right... add a little spark and bingo!  :gap:

I pulled #1 plug last night and it still looks like the mixture is running lean to me. Its got over 200 miles on it.  I tach'd it up to 5,500 a couple times in 1st gear yesterday.  It seems like it pulls hard from 2 to 3K, then at around 4K it's has a little flat spot, then at about 4,800 it comes on again and jumps to 5,500.  :yikes:

It has some noise, constant from idle up, at the front camshaft area that I don't like. I think its rocker or valve noise. :dunno:  I've checked and adjusted the valve lash 3 times.  :-\

So the cold start fast idle issue can be several things. As :)bestgen4runner suggests, it's the air valve? ... or as mudder discovered - the start injector time switch, or it could be the cold start injector?  BUT, it can also be the fuel pressure regulator.  Since the injectors are rebuilt and the O2 sensor is new, it's running a lean mixture, I'm thinking the pressure regulator is probably the original and could be plugged up, not allowing enough fuel to the injectors?  :dunno:

I'll either figure this out, break my Toy piggy bank trying, have a break-down and end up in a straight-jacket on Prozac and a Valium drip!.... or I could become a 22RE "tweaker-tuner" like H8PVMNT!  :willynilly:

Gnarls. :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 21, 2017, 07:26:14 AM
Blabbity blabbity blah!  Yurhg!  Sheesh. ;). Taweeekur.

I think the pressure regulator is on the end of the fuel rail so it works like a pop off letting fuel out through the return, not like a restrictor on the way in.  I have heard the 261C tends to make a lot of racket, compounded with the later aluminum rockers, which I hate by the way, but I'm weird... Seriously though aside from snugging up valve lash if you get a set of early steel rockers and polish them on a wet stone for break in they will quiet down the valve train. Probably not worth the trouble unless it really drives you nuts.

You pretty much need to replace all that stuff and see what happens.  You know what?  I have an '85 22re sitting in the back of my kids pickup.  We are going to use carb on it, cough, carb, cough.  Do you want me to send you some bits from it to help with diagnosis?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Apr 21, 2017, 08:15:49 AM
I wouldn't run your idle below 1k with the 261. It cause the engine to just not seem right.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 21, 2017, 02:05:41 PM
Blabbity blabbity blah!  Yurhg!  Sheesh. ;). Taweeekur.

I just liked this...  :yupyup:

Quote
I think the pressure regulator is on the end of the fuel rail so it works like a pop off letting fuel out through the return, not like a restrictor on the way in. 

correct

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 21, 2017, 05:26:57 PM
Quote
H8PVMNT .... I think the pressure regulator is on the end of the fuel rail so it works like a pop off letting fuel out through the return, not like a restrictor on the way in.



correct



hhhmmmmmm... from my research you are both wrong.  You may be thinking of the pulse damper... at the other end of the fuel rail.  The pressure regular DOES regulate the pressure to the injectors and can be become faulty and will restrict the correct fuel pressure to the injectors. It will "return" fuel to the tank as it functions to regulate.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 21, 2017, 05:38:20 PM

... I have heard the 261C tends to make a lot of racket, compounded with the later aluminum rockers, which I hate by the way, but I'm weird... Seriously though aside from snugging up valve lash if you get a set of early steel rockers and polish them on a wet stone for break in they will quiet down the valve train. Probably not worth the trouble unless it really drives you nuts.

You pretty much need to replace all that stuff and see what happens.  You know what?  I have an '85 22re sitting in the back of my kids pickup.  We are going to use carb on it, cough, carb, cough.  Do you want me to send you some bits from it to help with diagnosis?

I have not heard or read that the 261C makes a lot of noise.  I'm VERY familiar with 22's rocker noise.

Thank you very much for your generous offer.  Can I take rain check for now?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 21, 2017, 06:13:17 PM
I wouldn't run your idle below 1k with the 261. It cause the engine to just not seem right.

I am seriously considering pulling the 261C camshaft out of this head.  At this point I believe I have “read” more negative reviews about this camshaft than any rave reviews.  As I mentioned before, I had very credible communications with a guy “testing” camshafts in his 22RE.  He said the 261C produced a “lean fire” condition and a rough idle issue.  He thought it would be perform better in a 22R.

Add that to what appears to be a lean mixture based upon my color-reading the spark plugs, the 6 degrees of overlap in this profile, and a low RPM blubber I hear in 1st gear at slack throttle, the noise I hear that I don’t like in the rocker cover, and what appears to be poorly aligned lobes relative to the rockers, probably due to poor quality control in casting.

In the past, my DD testing data made the CompCam 252S profile look very good for a stock 22RE with a header and opened exhaust.  The guy that had tested several camshafts, actually tested the CompCam 252S based on my posts on Pirate.  Two guys that installed the 252S and provided me with some very good feedback thought it performed very well and still offered nice fuel mileage.  Since that time, I see there are some very interesting choices in cam profiles for the 22s.

As a test comparison, I am tempted to replace this camshaft with the stock one that is sitting in my old head.

IF the factory stock camshaft proves to be plenty torquey for my target of 2500 to 3500 RPM range and keeps MamaECU happy, I will look at several other camshafts, and then decide what I may install or test later on.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 21, 2017, 06:52:19 PM
As I stated before, it took me 10 days before I had enough and pulled mine.
Sounds like you will be close to the same result, Rofl
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 21, 2017, 07:55:23 PM

hhhmmmmmm... from my research you are both wrong.  You may be thinking of the pulse damper... at the other end of the fuel rail.  The pressure regular DOES regulate the pressure to the injectors and can be become faulty and will restrict the correct fuel pressure to the injectors. It will "return" fuel to the tank as it functions to regulate.

Gnarls.


This is at the end of the fuel rail

(https://board.marlincrawler.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lceperformance.com%2F%2Fv%2Fvspfiles%2Fphotos%2F1035049-2T.jpg&hash=1797e9ee100bcb964427c2ca2f9302b8)

It regulates by acting like a popoff valve, there is no restriction to incoming fuel.    Any restriction would tend to raise fuel pressure.

The popped off fuel returns to the fuel tank.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 21, 2017, 07:58:01 PM

As a test comparison, I am tempted to replace this camshaft with the stock one that is sitting in my old head.


If you're careful, you should be able to swap the cam and rocker arm assembly (so the rockers are matched to the cam) without replacing the headgasket.....

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Apr 21, 2017, 11:38:25 PM
If you are running lean, you can richen the the A/F ratio by adjusting the AFM.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 02:22:38 AM

It regulates by acting like a popoff valve, there is no restriction to incoming fuel.    Any restriction would tend to raise fuel pressure.

The popped off fuel returns to the fuel tank.


Yes, I thought the same thing and did not immediately consider that part as causing a possible lean mixture condition.  After doing more research, I read the attached page from the Toyota EFI and Engine Controls Systems book that I bought on :)bestgen4runner's suggestion.

Since the gas sat for almost 4 years, and did have some crusty looking stuff on the fuel pump I replaced, so is it possible that a 31 year old fuel pressure regulator could be restricting the fuel flow?

I'm trying to look at every possible cause or effect, known or unknown, and it seems the more I look for answers the more questions I get.

There is, no doubt, an incredible amount of experience and knowledge here, so would you go with the anecdotal and possibly correct experiences of us DIYers, or would you consider the training manual for Toyota mechanics?

I always do my best to keep an open mind, especially about things I'm on that are a continuing learning curve.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 02:37:38 AM
If you are running lean, you can richen the the A/F ratio by adjusting the AFM.

Hey Snowtoy,

Yes, I considered that, and have not yet tested the AFM.  However, before I toasted the engine, the AFM was performing fine.  Nothing should have changed with it, although anything is possible.  Unfortunately, I did not keep the old spark plugs... dumb move... I could have had them to compare with... now I will take photos and document in my library of Tweaker-Tuner data!

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 02:43:40 AM
If you're careful, you should be able to swap the cam and rocker arm assembly (so the rockers are matched to the cam) without replacing the headgasket.....


Hey emsvitil,
 
Yeah... I've never swapped a camshaft while needing to keep the head and head gasket in tact in a 22.  I guess I will find out if it's possible with my limited experience. 

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 02:55:23 AM
As I stated before, it took me 10 days before I had enough and pulled mine.
Sounds like you will be close to the same result, Rofl

:)bestgen4runner,

Although I consider myself at least an average "auto mechanic", my experience with Toyota engines most likely wouldn't make a pimple on your butt.  So I respect your experience and opinions on them.

As much as totally respect engbldr, Tod and Ted and what they have contributed to the early Toyota owner's community, and not wanting to promote any bad press about one of their custom designed parts, I AM going to figure out what I'm experiencing and make this rebuilt engine project come out like I imagined it would.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 03:23:35 AM
As I stated before, it took me 10 days before I had enough and pulled mine.
Sounds like you will be close to the same result, Rofl

You said "10k miles", not 10 days.... unless you drove 1,000 miles a day for 10 days? :screwy: .......but I get where you ended up.

There's no way I'm driving 10,000 miles with this engine running like it is!  :shake: ... and probably not even 1,000 miles!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 22, 2017, 04:21:48 AM
Your fuel pressure regulator could certainly be sticking slightly open with crusty stuff in it, not keeping enough pressure in the rail. I had to replace one in my buddy's '85 once.  It failed to the point of barely running at all.  I don't thing the thing would do any more than if I remember correctly.

It's easy to get to. Try it.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on Apr 22, 2017, 09:45:51 AM
Yes, I thought the same thing and did not immediately consider that part as causing a possible lean mixture condition.  After doing more research, I read the attached page from the Toyota EFI and Engine Controls Systems book that I bought on :)bestgen4runner's suggestion.

Since the gas sat for almost 4 years, and did have some crusty looking stuff on the fuel pump I replaced, so is it possible that a 31 year old fuel pressure regulator could be restricting the fuel flow?

I'm trying to look at every possible cause or effect, known or unknown, and it seems the more I look for answers the more questions I get.

There is, no doubt, an incredible amount of experience and knowledge here, so would you go with the anecdotal and possibly correct experiences of us DIYers, or would you consider the training manual for Toyota mechanics?

I always do my best to keep an open mind, especially about things I'm on that are a continuing learning curve.

Gnarls.

Hey Gnarly, can we get some more info on this book, where did you buy it? I might be interested in getting a copy if it goes into more detail than the FSM.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 09:50:41 AM
It's easy to get to. Try it.

Geezzzz... that thing was a BEAR to get to and get the hoses attached!!!!  My engine bay may be smaller than average?


Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 10:05:42 AM
Hey Gnarly, can we get some more info on this book, where did you buy it? I might be interested in getting a copy if it goes into more detail than the FSM.

I bought the last one here:

https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Control-Systems-Technicians-Handbook/dp/B000M5BQEC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492880656&sr=8-1&keywords=Toyota+EFI+and+Engine+Controls+Systems

But you might do some research and find a source.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on Apr 22, 2017, 10:30:24 AM
I bought the last one here:

https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Control-Systems-Technicians-Handbook/dp/B000M5BQEC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492880656&sr=8-1&keywords=Toyota+EFI+and+Engine+Controls+Systems

But you might do some research and find a source.

Gnarls.




Thanks, I'm on it.
 Good luck getting these issues sorted. After my rebuild I have a slight idle fluctuation that I'm trying to sort out. I can imagine how frustrating it must be to work so hard to get it all right and run into problems like your dealing with  :crossed:.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 11:42:43 AM
Hey Gnarly, can we get some more info on this book, where did you buy it? I might be interested in getting a copy if it goes into more detail than the FSM.

The book I bought is not as robust as I thought it would be. It has specific information and descriptions on the 22RE EFI components that the FSM does not have.  For me, I think its worth the $15.00+.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Apr 22, 2017, 12:03:13 PM
Hey Snowtoy,

Yes, I considered that, and have not yet tested the AFM.  However, before I toasted the engine, the AFM was performing fine.  Nothing should have changed with it, although anything is possible.  Unfortunately, I did not keep the old spark plugs... dumb move... I could have had them to compare with... now I will take photos and document in my library of Tweaker-Tuner data!

Gnarls.
The adjustment isn't due to an issue with the AFM, it is to allow more fuel to be added to the baseline mixture.  The stock programming is from "X" intake volume at idle through wide-open throttle, if the 261 cam allows "X+" air volume at idle, causing a lean condition as the one mechanic you spoke with theorized and you think you are seeing, it would mean that the ecm's stock programming parameters cannot compensate for the additional air volume the 261cam is allowing in.  By manually adjusting the AFM baseline for the additional volume of air, the ecm stock programming should be able to accurately monitor the A/F mixture from there.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 12:45:40 PM
The adjustment isn't due to an issue with the AFM, it is to allow more fuel to be added to the baseline mixture.  The stock programming is from "X" intake volume at idle through wide-open throttle, if the 261 cam allows "X+" air volume at idle, causing a lean condition as the one mechanic you spoke with theorized and you think you are seeing, it would mean that the ecm's stock programming parameters cannot compensate for the additional air volume the 261cam is allowing in.  By manually adjusting the AFM baseline for the additional volume of air, the ecm stock programming should be able to accurately monitor the A/F mixture from there.

Hmmm.. very interesting.  I will definitely check this out. Thank you for sharing that!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on Apr 22, 2017, 01:50:43 PM
How to link from another Toyota site.
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/minutemods/afm/

BigMike also has quite a bit of input/info here,
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=5446.0
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 22, 2017, 07:03:56 PM
How to link from another Toyota site.
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/minutemods/afm/

BigMike also has quite a bit of input/info here,
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=5446.0

Hi Snowtoy,

On the AFM adjustments, I have seen the Youtube videos and I remember reading the 4x4 link some time back.

I rebuilt this engine with the idea of starting with a baseline of the factory stock engine specs, then adding selected modifications by installing simple mods to the head (larger valves), to the camshaft profile (gain torque in the 2500 to 3500 RPM range), and install a header with larger exhaust piping, free-flow CAT and muffler.  All of which do have some touted performance gains – but, in my opinion, numbers or amounts that are mostly anecdotal, opinion, and butt dyno.

I wanted to find out for myself.  I wanted to test my rebuild with my own butt dyno, and then on a certified chassis dyno by a very reputable speed shop with a highly experienced chassis dyno operator.

Theoretically the larger valves in the head and torquey cam profile, supposedly, will work fine in a stock 22RE with MamaECU and her little input sensors, including the AFM, injectors, etc.  Nowhere have I read or been told by any aftermarket seller of performance enhancing modification parts that I have to make any adjustments to anything.

If I need to make some “adjustments” to tune the add-ons to my target goal in performance gains, I’m willing to do that providing they do not get overly expensive or create other problems… unreasonably poor fuel economy.

The Toyota engineers designed this engine with decades of experience.  I believe when you start making “changes” to their design, there are potential side-effects, or trade-offs.  Toyota introduced its first EFI system on the 1979 Supra 4M-E.  In 1986 did they anticipate that in 2016 Gnarls, a backyard DIYer, would rebuild their incredibly well-engineered - and now legendary - engine with larger valves, an aftermarket camshaft with an overlap of 6 degrees, while burning today’s gasoline fuel formula composition that did not even exist in 1986?

I may find out what I’ve been told by a very reputable Toyota engine builder, and my own back-of-my-brain thoughts, that I should just keep my 22RE factory stock and enjoy what it did perfectly well in 1986.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 22, 2017, 07:59:01 PM
Look into the Lce air fuel controller. This is the tool I have used to tune a modified 22re using the factory ecu
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 22, 2017, 08:28:26 PM
When you're in closed-loop mode (most driving conditions), tweaking the AFM really won't do anything other than make it take longer for the ECM to 'fix' your 'tweak'.......

I wouldn't touch the AFM yet.......

I'd check fuel pressure and for your starting problem see how long the timer for the cold start injector actually is on.

The LCE air fuel controller is a 'resistor' added in series to the temp sensor so the ECU thinks conditions are colder than they actually are........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 22, 2017, 10:20:33 PM
That's correct on the Lce controller. When you pair it with an air fuel ratio gauge you can trick the computer into the correct fuel mixture. Works great with a modified engine.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 23, 2017, 05:16:13 AM
Thank you ALL for your input and posts.  I would not be where I am today (I’m not sure “where” I am sometimes) without your help and support.

I’m not afraid to jump into the “experimental” realm of tuning, but I am skeptical that the outcome will give me what I wanted when started this rebuild… just getting a enough noticeable increase in power (torque) at my target RPM range 2500 to 3500 by changing a $100 to $300 camshaft, adding an approximate $600 exhaust header and opened exhaust system, while keeping fuel mileage within a reasonable MPG.  I believe my high quality rebuild (machine work, parts, and careful assembly), bigger valves, DT header and exhaust, the right cam profile - *should* produce the increase I believe is possible.

For me, making that “jump” will most likely involve spending $400 to $500 for high quality AFR meter, a laptop computer, and hours and hours of experimental test and tweak time.  At that point, my power gain (over factory stock) to cost ratio becomes unacceptable.

Right now I believe my engine is running a lean mixture, not cold starting like it should, and making some noise that I don’t think I should be hearing.

I’m going to find out why.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 23, 2017, 06:46:34 PM
UPDATE Sunday, April 23...

Today I did a comparison on my Engine Analyzer DD for the Toyota factory cam, CompCam 252S, and engbldr 261C.  Back several years ago when I was doing research on cam profiles for my 22R, the CC252S is the one that I felt was the best for my driving style and increased torque in the RPM range I use the most.  And it should still keep MamaECU happy for good gas mileage – based on the reports by the guys that have installed it in a 22RE and gave me some good report feedback.

I am thinking seriously about ordering one from Summit, and pulling the 261C out of my engine.  I want to see what changes it makes, if any.  The 261C specs from engbldr say 6 degrees of overlap, my DD says 5.5 degrees.

The CompCam 252S data on my DD shows 3.2 degrees of overlap.  The factory stock cam shows 2.6 degrees of overlap. Based upon the feedback from those who have installed the 261C, now with my own experience, it’s my gut feeling, and speculation at this point, that the 6 degrees of overlap in the 261C profile is causing a lean fire condition (lean AFR) and upsetting MamaECU.

Any and all comments will be appreciated.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 23, 2017, 07:51:47 PM
 :shake_head:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 23, 2017, 08:15:48 PM
I really don't think there's enough difference in overlap to make a difference (I may be wrong).   

With all the work to swap a cam,  this would be one of the last things I'd try.


I'm thinking fuel pressure low.........

Back to overlap, a quick (noisy) test for too much overlap is to loosen the valves so there's less overlap.    Add .002 to each. I can see reducing the overlap to stock specs just to see what happens.    Or even tighten by .002 to see if it gets worse..
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Apr 23, 2017, 10:00:36 PM
Gnarly, I don't think your cam is causing a lean condition. My trucks not running lean and I've got the same cam. I'd get a fuel pressure gauge on there and see what psi you've got.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 24, 2017, 04:32:05 AM
Thank you ALL for your input and posts.  I would not be where I am today (I’m not sure “where” I am sometimes) without your help and support.

I’m not afraid to jump into the “experimental” realm of tuning, but I am skeptical that the outcome will give me what I wanted when started this rebuild… just getting a enough noticeable increase in power (torque) at my target RPM range 2500 to 3500 by changing a $100 to $300 camshaft, adding an approximate $600 exhaust header and opened exhaust system, while keeping fuel mileage within a reasonable MPG.  I believe my high quality rebuild (machine work, parts, and careful assembly), bigger valves, DT header and exhaust, the right cam profile - *should* produce the increase I believe is possible.

For me, making that “jump” will most likely involve spending $400 to $500 for high quality AFR meter, a laptop computer, and hours and hours of experimental test and tweak time.  At that point, my power gain (over factory stock) to cost ratio becomes unacceptable.

Right now I believe my engine is running a lean mixture, not cold starting like it should, and making some noise that I don’t think I should be hearing.

I’m going to find out why.

Gnarls.


Hitachi main jets cost $3.29 each :).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 04:56:06 AM
I really don't think there's enough difference in overlap to make a difference (I may be wrong).   

With all the work to swap a cam,  this would be one of the last things I'd try.


I'm thinking fuel pressure low.........

Back to overlap, a quick (noisy) test for too much overlap is to loosen the valves so there's less overlap.    Add .002 to each. I can see reducing the overlap to stock specs just to see what happens.    Or even tighten by .002 to see if it gets worse..

Yes... I am planning to re-adjust the valve lash a couple thousandths.  I think that will make the rockers a little noisy, but that's OK for this short period testing.

Edited for "Ed"....Opening the valve lash will change the duration *slightly*.... BUT does it increase or decrease the overlap?

And, yes... I will replace the the fuel pressure regulator... and it would nice the know my issue is really a lean mixture caused by less the sufficient fuel pressure to the injectors... but I really don't know for sure I'm seeing a lean mixture?  The gas formulas today do make the spark plugs read differently than in the earlier leaded fuel days.

Thanks for the input.

Gnarls.
 

 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 05:04:35 AM
Hitachi main jets cost $3.29 each :).

If my engine was a 22R, I would have had this thing running and really enjoying my new found "torque"!!

If I could do it over, I would have bought a truck with a 22R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 24, 2017, 07:17:58 AM
No I'm just messing with you.  You will get it dialed.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on Apr 24, 2017, 08:02:00 AM
i mentioned this before but did you try disabling the egr and then driving around to test? an egr that opens too soon can cause a lean condition up to WOT.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 08:34:15 AM
When you say "disable", you mean pull the vacuum line off the bottom, then plugging the hose?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 08:35:14 AM
No I'm just messing with you.  You will get it dialed.

I know you are messing with me.  I've been "messed" with before!  :beerchug:

Gnarls. :gap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on Apr 24, 2017, 08:50:19 AM
When you say "disable", you mean pull the vacuum line off the bottom, then plugging the hose?

Gnarls.

yes or  the 12mm bolts at back of plenum (egr connection)and blocking off(slide in a gasket or something to block port then tighten back up)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 24, 2017, 04:09:46 PM
Less intake and exhaust duration = less overlap
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 06:40:25 PM
Less intake and exhaust duration = less overlap

In a given cam profile - correct.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 24, 2017, 07:25:17 PM

Opening the valve lash will not change the duration.... BUT does it increase or decrease the overlap?




Yes it will..........

tight valves will have slightly more duration, loose valves slightly less duration.....


Did you degree the camshaft when installing?


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 07:39:17 PM


Yes it will..........

tight valves will have slightly more duration, loose valves slightly less duration.....


Did you degree the camshaft when installing?


OK... I'll give you *slightly*...... but .002" opening or closing the valve lash will most likely make a very small difference in duration, and may make the rockers slightly louder if opened, and make the seat time on the exhaust valve shorter if tightened.  BUT... I plan to try opening them up a couple thousandths.

Changing the valve lash from cam spec sheet 7/9 to 9/11 changes the overlap from 5.5 to 5.4 degrees...... don't know if the MamaECU will get any feedback from the O2 sensor?

Gnarls.

No, I did not degree the camshaft.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 24, 2017, 07:44:03 PM
The #slightly# may just be enough to drop the overlap to 'stock' specs..............
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Apr 24, 2017, 07:45:09 PM
Gnarly, when I get back home on Sunday I'll pull my plugs and take a look at them. I'm dropping from 4,300' elevation to around 950'. I'm running the same cam as you and haven't noticed any of the problems you've had. So I'll be intrested to see how my plugs look.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 07:48:11 PM
The #slightly# may just be enough to drop the overlap to 'stock' specs..............

Yes.... I'm open right now to doing some "testing" before throwing more money at this engine... those little Toyota engineers are VERY proud of their "sensors"!!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 07:49:39 PM
Gnarly, when I get back home on Sunday I'll pull my plugs and take a look at them. I'm dropping from 4,300' elevation to around 950'. I'm running the same cam as you and haven't noticed any of the problems you've had. So I'll be intrested to see how my plugs look.

Thanks mudder, that would be cool to see what your plugs look like!  :beerchug:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 07:55:35 PM
Who, if anybody, has swapped a camshaft on 22 on a healthy running engine (after it stops and cools off :shake:), without disturbing the head or head gasket?  :inthedark:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Apr 24, 2017, 07:59:15 PM
I personally haven't but when I talked to Ted about doing that he said that they use ratchet straps to keep the pressure. Since my truck is my only form of transportation I didn't want to take the risk.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 24, 2017, 08:07:14 PM
I personally haven't but when I talked to Ted about doing that he said that they use ratchet straps to keep the pressure. Since my truck is my only form of transportation I didn't want to take the risk.

OK... ratchet straps.... good idea.  I am trying to imagine where the straps would go...?? first removing the cam sprocket bolt, removing the cam sprocket and keep it tightened up against the crank sprocket.... loosening the head bolts, then hoping or preventing any oil dripping down into the block bolts holes?  :yikes:  Then there's the rocker rack locating shims??  Then lifting the rocker rack, then then loosening the cam bearing bolts, lifting the camshaft....  :smack:

The head is held in place by the exhaust manifold and the intake manifold, and the timing cover, the EGR stuff... right?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Apr 24, 2017, 08:10:19 PM
Who, if anybody, has swapped a camshaft on 22 on a healthy running engine (after it stops and cools off :shake:), without disturbing the head or head gasket?  :inthedark:

Gnarls.

I have replaced a broken valve spring on a 20R which entails removing the rocker arm assembly without redoing the headgasket...........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on Apr 24, 2017, 08:24:40 PM
It's held in place by those but the reason of the ratchet straps is you need enough pressure to keep the seal from popping. I was thinking I'd probably use two and just run one near the front of the head and the back of the head and just run the other side under the engine to the other side of the head. As for keeping tension on the chain, I've done it without and didn't have a problem. But I've also done it by using a piece of string tied to the cam gear and tied to the hood support of my truck, the ones running under the hood.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 24, 2017, 08:37:13 PM
It's been done but not advisable.
Just pull the head off and do it the right way.
If you would have used an Lc cam in the first place you wouldn't be doing it twice.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 25, 2017, 04:32:27 AM
It's been done but not advisable.
Just pull the head off and do it the right way.
If you would have used an Lc cam in the first place you wouldn't be doing it twice.



Of course its "not advisable"!  :shake:

How many things have been done by everyone here that was "not advisable"? :laugh:

It's easy to say "Just pull the head off and do it the right way." .... THAT is a huge job to me.  :thumbdown:

Doing things the "right way" or by the book is a good concept, but I've done many things that were NOT by the "book"... like NOT torquing a bolt to factory-by-the-book specs.  :blah:

We know swapping camshafts on an installed engine has been done many times without having to remove the head and re-install it.  :moon:

I have no confirmed evidence that the camshaft is causing a problem, although I have my "gut" feelings based on anecdotal experiences - mine, yours, and one other guy.  How many engbldr camshafts have you installed that proved to be defective, caused a lean fire, or simply would not work properly? :headshake:

At this point I have too many questions and not enough answers.  :disturbed:

Gnarls. :gap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 25, 2017, 07:23:07 AM
I would order a head gasket to have one around just in case...

I am super paranoid about head gaskets but if you aren't depending in the truck to DD at this point I would go ahead and try the head on engine cam swap, carefully and see what happens.  Afterward check it all the time to make sure you don't get the sweet, white exhaust or any milky oil in your crank case.  It will either work or it won't, just so long as you catch it before it can mess anything up it's OK. 

Then if your head gasket fails right away do it right.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: redneckcustoms13 on Apr 25, 2017, 09:07:58 AM
You have drug out a simple rebuild this long. Over analyzing 90% of it. Now when you want to swap the cam shaft you won't do it right?

Just my opinion it may be worthless.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 25, 2017, 09:29:47 AM
You have drug out a simple rebuild this long. Over analyzing 90% of it. Now when you want to swap the cam shaft you won't do it right?

Just my opinion it may be worthless.
  :rofl:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: DAWGTOY on Apr 25, 2017, 09:44:37 AM
someone else ask did you degree in the camshaft. anytime the deck has been cut or the head shaved
the cam will be out of time slightly. an adjustable camshaft sprocket can be used to get it back into spec.
on stock cams this is not as important as aftermarket cams. if this was not done during assembly  :smack:
it could be the root of your problem. read up on youtube about how to degree a cam. the card that came with the
cam will tell you when things are supposed to happen (opening and closing of the valves). a few degrees
off can make a huge difference and aftermarket cams are more dependent on this being correct.
even if the head is new and the deck is uncut (never built one that had an undecked block) i still degree in my cams.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 25, 2017, 10:37:10 AM
someone else ask did you degree in the camshaft. anytime the deck has been cut or the head shaved
the cam will be out of time slightly. an adjustable camshaft sprocket can be used to get it back into spec.
on stock cams this is not as important as aftermarket cams. if this was not done during assembly  :smack:
it could be the root of your problem. read up on youtube about how to degree a cam. the card that came with the
cam will tell you when things are supposed to happen (opening and closing of the valves). a few degrees
off can make a huge difference and aftermarket cams are more dependent on this being correct.
even if the head is new and the deck is uncut (never built one that had an undecked block) i still degree in my cams.

I understand cam timing.  I don't believe cam timing is the issue.  It may be retarded 1/2 degree due to the .006" the block was cleaned. 

Degreeing the cam is a good idea.

Thanks for your input.

Gnarls
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 25, 2017, 10:40:33 AM
You have drug out a simple rebuild this long. Over analyzing 90% of it. Now when you want to swap the cam shaft you won't do it right?

Just my opinion it may be worthless.

The length of time for this project has zero to do with the issues, or how to replace a camshaft without removing the head. 

Whether I over-analyze the crap out this rebuild, or do it as blind-folded retard, has nothing to do with the issues.

How I do it, or doing it "right" is subjective.

Thank you for your input.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Apr 25, 2017, 02:53:27 PM
I will not unleash on you, but I will say the adjustable cam gear is a great tool no matter what cam you are running.  You could justify ordering one just for the sake of seeing what happens and it still wouldn't be a waste of money even if you ended up ditching that cam.  In my recent experiences adjusting the cam timing made large differences in the way my 22R ran.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Apr 25, 2017, 02:58:36 PM
I will not unleash on you, but I will say the adjustable cam gear is a great tool no matter what cam you are running.  You could justify ordering one just for the sake of seeing what happens and it still wouldn't be a waste of money even if you ended up ditching that cam.  In my recent experiences adjusting the cam timing made large differences in the way my 22R ran.
All You have to do is remove the valve cover and cam bolt. Nothing crazy or that requires weeks of research.  :slap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gillesdetrail on Apr 25, 2017, 03:21:18 PM
Why do you think you are running lean?

If you think your cam is defective you can check the specs with a dial indicator and the specs on the cam card to see if they match. I remember one of my 22r or 20r heads also had the original cam lobes misaligned with the rockers as well, and at least one rocker wearing only on one side.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 26, 2017, 03:06:58 AM
All You have to do is remove the valve cover and cam bolt. Nothing crazy or that requires weeks of research.  :slap:

Research is my hobby.  :inthedark:

Gnarls. :gap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 26, 2017, 03:09:56 AM
Why do you think you are running lean?


Spark plugs color looks like a lean mixture and engine bay seems really hot on the exhaust manifold side.  It's got a little blubber at 1500 RPM, 1st gear at slack idle.   :dunno:

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Apr 26, 2017, 03:29:02 AM
I will not unleash on you, but I will say the adjustable cam gear is a great tool no matter what cam you are running.  You could justify ordering one just for the sake of seeing what happens and it still wouldn't be a waste of money even if you ended up ditching that cam.  In my recent experiences adjusting the cam timing made large differences in the way my 22R ran.

Hey H8PVMNT,

You can "unleash" on me anytime.... I have big shoulders... I can take it.  :smooch:

You already know, I have mentioned it, and it's well documented, the modifications you do to a carb'd engine respond VERY differently than the modifications to the EFI 22.  :thumbs:

I don't think changing (advancing or retarding) the cam timing (depending on who's profile), will be as noticeable in an effort to get power gain or better throttle response, or fuel mileage, as it will on a carb'd engine.  I think the 22RE ECU and sensors will try to keep the mixture, ignition timing, etc, within a programmed range... most likely designed to meet the emissions regulations of the 80's.  I could be wrong, but so far that's my experience and seems to be consistent with the 1000's of post I've read on the subject over the past 15 years or so, coupled with the conversations I have had with some the most respected Toyota engine builders, camshaft manufacturers, and automotive racing experts on the planet.  :smokin:

Once I get the engine running right, I do plan to do more "tweaking and testing".... an adjustable cam gear would be a nice play thing.  :D

Before I start experiment tweaking, I would like to get this engine broken in and running like I think it should.  :driving:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 01, 2017, 04:54:47 AM
UPDATE May 1st 2017 AM:

I drove the truck yesterday and the noise coming from the front of the rock cover is louder.  I need to figure out what that noise is.

It sounds like a loose rocker or valve lash? It seems to be just one or maybe 2 valves, louder near number one cylinder.  I hope its not a valve, valve seat, or spring.  I will try one more time on an adjustment on the valve lash, and open the lash up a couple thousandths. 

I'm going to carefully inspect the rocker rack, lash studs on valve stem location, and remove the camshaft.  I haven't decided yet, but I am leaning towards a new camshaft from CompCams - the 252S.  At this point, I'm concerned about the overlap in the 261C, but it's just my gut feeling, past reports on this cam in a 22RE, not based on any real hard facts.

Regarding the fuel pressure regulator... it's looks impossible to R&R without removing the chamber from the intake manifold.  But, I will replace it.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on May 01, 2017, 07:14:23 AM
UPDATE May 1st 2017 AM:

I drove the truck yesterday and the noise coming from the front of the rock cover is louder.  I need to figure out what that noise is.

It sounds like a loose rocker or valve lash? It seems to be just one or maybe 2 valves, louder near number one cylinder.  I hope its not a valve, valve seat, or spring.  I will try one more time on an adjustment on the valve lash, and open the lash up a couple thousandths. 

I'm going to carefully inspect the rocker rack, lash studs on valve stem location, and remove the camshaft.  I haven't decided yet, but I am leaning towards a new camshaft from CompCams - the 252S.  At this point, I'm concerned about the overlap in the 261C, but it's just my gut feeling, past reports on this cam in a 22RE, not based on any real hard facts.

Regarding the fuel pressure regulator... it's looks impossible to R&R without removing the chamber from the intake manifold.  But, I will replace it.

Gnarls.
If I missed it forgive me. But, did You replaced the rocker arms with the new cam shaft? Cam going flat?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on May 01, 2017, 08:27:11 AM
Gnarls, I won't be able to get a look at my plugs for at little bit. Had at little accident and need to get the winch off of my truck in order to open the hood. I still strongly believe it's not the cam that's causing you problems as mine never did. After talking to H8 I figured out why I dislike this cam, the power band is narrow and it's a problem for me. 
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on May 01, 2017, 08:34:00 AM
I replaced mine due to the :pokinit: power band.  :_oops:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 01, 2017, 08:55:44 AM
If I missed it forgive me. But, did You replaced the rocker arms with the new cam shaft? Cam going flat?


There are several things you have missed.  I did not replace the rockers.  They looked good.  I will check for a flat lobe, but I don't think the rockers would cause that in less than 100 miles?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on May 01, 2017, 09:06:38 AM
There are several things you have missed.  I did not replace the rockers.  They looked good.  I will check for a flat lobe, but I don't think the rockers would cause that in less than 100 miles?

Gnarls.
How old are the rockers You are running?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on May 01, 2017, 09:38:25 AM
When you put the valve cover on what did you torque those top 4 bolts to?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 01, 2017, 09:41:28 AM
Polish them there rocker pads on a wet stone, like you use for your skinning knife. Just drag them down the wet stone covered in good honing oil until you have an um-blemished surface with all the wear marks gone.  Probably not as good as new, but you end up with a nice fresh flat surface for the cam to break into.  I tried it as an experiment and it worked just fine.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on May 01, 2017, 10:14:20 AM
I believe all the cam manufacturers and 22re companies recommend replacing the rockers with a new cam shaft.
I have been told its like reusing lifters. A big NO NO!   :hammerhead:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 01, 2017, 01:23:47 PM
I believe all the cam manufacturers and 22re companies recommend replacing the rockers with a new cam shaft.
I have been told its like reusing lifters. A big NO NO!   :hammerhead:

Yeah... Yeahh... I know.... at my age there's lots of "no-nos"!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 01, 2017, 02:41:54 PM
Figure I should post up here since I have a similar new rebuild. Engnbldr Street RV head, 261c and the DT header. Machinist has built plenty of 22REs and said all he needed to do to my rockers was polish them a bit. Did not need to deck the block. Valve lash set to 007/009.

Anyway, I could not be happier with how this motor runs. No issues with idle and starts with a blip of the key cold or hot. It has the quietest idle out of any 22RE I have owned (10 or so at this point) and definitely pulls harder than any of them. I have about 100 miles on it so far. And it does not seem to getting noisier. Like most of us I am super familiar with the valve chatter and this just does not do it for some reason.

I have never had a fresh rebuild though to compare it to. My last truck came to me with a rebuild with 30k on it, stock head, DT and the Comp Cams 252S. My butt dyno says it did not pull as hard as this new motor, although that was 33s/4.88 and my current ride is 35s/5.29. I could not get that previous motor to have a quiet valvetrain.

I'm in CO, so I will be doing emissions on a dyno. I will report back here with how that goes. They can't really test for lean but if I have high NOx that would be a sign.

I haven't read through this whole thread but are you sure your timing mark on the damper is correct? I had that slip on an old motor once and ended up timed 10 degrees ATDC when I thought I was spot on. Caused all sorts of misses and SUPER hot exhaust.

Long story short, unless that 261 is defective I doubt changing cams is going to fix your issues.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 01, 2017, 04:43:24 PM
Polish them there rocker pads on a wet stone, like you use for your skinning knife. Just drag them down the wet stone covered in good honing oil until you have an um-blemished surface with all the wear marks gone.  Probably not as good as new, but you end up with a nice fresh flat surface for the cam to break into.  I tried it as an experiment and it worked just fine.

I used a fine grinding wheel on a 20R engine.....................

I've heard (not personally) of the rocker arms tapping against the valve cover....................
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 01, 2017, 06:03:56 PM
Gnarls, I won't be able to get a look at my plugs for at little bit. Had at little accident and need to get the winch off of my truck in order to open the hood. I still strongly believe it's not the cam that's causing you problems as mine never did. After talking to H8 I figured out why I dislike this cam, the power band is narrow and it's a problem for me. 


I'm sorry to read about your little accident and hope everybody is OK, and your truck is not damaged badly.

Yeah.. I won't be totally surprised if its the cam, but really hoping for a simple fix.

When you do get an extra 10 minutes to pull the spark plugs, and post a good close-up, I will really appreciate it... no rush.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 01, 2017, 06:06:43 PM
When you put the valve cover on what did you torque those top 4 bolts to?

Yes, this apparently can cause a problem.  I have always torqued them by "feel", and just enough to seal the gasket.  I don't see a torque spec for those 4 acorn nuts in my FSM?

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 01, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
I believe all the cam manufacturers and 22re companies recommend replacing the rockers with a new cam shaft.
I have been told its like reusing lifters. A big NO NO!   :hammerhead:

No, it's not like reusing lifters.

But, it's a common recommendation for the camshaft suppliers.  Is there a spec on the rocker pads?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 01, 2017, 06:19:45 PM
Figure I should post up here since I have a similar new rebuild. Engnbldr Street RV head, 261c and the DT header. Machinist has built plenty of 22REs and said all he needed to do to my rockers was polish them a bit. Did not need to deck the block. Valve lash set to 007/009.

Anyway, I could not be happier with how this motor runs. No issues with idle and starts with a blip of the key cold or hot. It has the quietest idle out of any 22RE I have owned (10 or so at this point) and definitely pulls harder than any of them. I have about 100 miles on it so far. And it does not seem to getting noisier. Like most of us I am super familiar with the valve chatter and this just does not do it for some reason.

I have never had a fresh rebuild though to compare it to. My last truck came to me with a rebuild with 30k on it, stock head, DT and the Comp Cams 252S. My butt dyno says it did not pull as hard as this new motor, although that was 33s/4.88 and my current ride is 35s/5.29. I could not get that previous motor to have a quiet valvetrain.

I'm in CO, so I will be doing emissions on a dyno. I will report back here with how that goes. They can't really test for lean but if I have high NOx that would be a sign.

I haven't read through this whole thread but are you sure your timing mark on the damper is correct? I had that slip on an old motor once and ended up timed 10 degrees ATDC when I thought I was spot on. Caused all sorts of misses and SUPER hot exhaust.

Long story short, unless that 261 is defective I doubt changing cams is going to fix your issues.

andykrow,

Thank you for the fresh breath on 22RE engine building!

My DD software shows me what you are telling me your butt dyno is feeling.  THAT is why I decided on this cam for this engine and rebuild.  BUT... I did have some reservations.

I don't know how the harmonic balancer and the timing mark would slip on the pulley?  When I've checked #1 firing TDC, it's always been right on.

I'm pretty sure my stock exhaust manifold is creating some exhaust restriction and a DT header and 2.25" exhaust would be very noticeable.

My 22s have always had some rocker "tick", but its been the same balanced sound over the entire rocker rack.  And, when I have heard some excessive ticking, I have been able to do a valve lash adjustment and quiet them down to a more normal and even ticking sound.

Did you bore the block?

What sensors did replace, if any?

How many degrees is your total advance ignition timing?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 01, 2017, 07:04:16 PM
An exhaust leak can sound like a tap.........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 01, 2017, 11:04:59 PM
The harmonic balancer has a layer of rubber that is bonded. At least on the one that this happened to. I think it was just really old and shrunk up a bit. In any case I think the notch on the crank shaft should line up perfectly with the notch on the pulley, iirc.

Engine is bored 20 over. Timing is 5 degrees advanced with the test jumper in place. All sensors checked out so I didn't replace anything there. I had the injectors done by witch hunter but their report indicated I didn't really need to do that.

Truck ran decent before this but she ate up oil like crazy. Pretty much a quart on every full tank of gas! It had a slight miss at idle after getting fully up to temp but that has stopped with the rebuild and the idle doesn't move around like it used to.

Although the motor is quieter I would say it's got a bit more vibration happening at idle. Doesn't bother me though. Kinda expect cams to do that.

I'm honestly a little surprised at the number of people unhappy with the 261. I talked to Ted for a long time before making the purchase, and really became convinced of his knowledge. And I think that combined with torque and HP charts that were posted for a bunch of cams (I think by you Gnarly on Yotatech? Haha) I decided on the 261.

Engine pulls super hard off idle to 4K. I'll probably wait a while before I rev it higher than that, but it certainly wanted to shoot right past 4K. The real test will be the high passes on i70. I have had many different flavors of 22re on that road, doing 60 in 3rd gear at 4K+ rpms, and I know every little steep part between Denver and Moab and how a strong vs weak 22re will handle it.  So far this truck feels like it will climb the fastest out of all of them, which is great cuz it's on 35s :) 3rd gear and 4.2-4.5k on the tach is my happy place for those climbs. I think I'm going to wait till I have a good thousand miles or so before I subject this motor to that kind of torture. But emissions is coming soon.... :maddest:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 01, 2017, 11:20:33 PM
Not quite done typing for the night, haha. Regarding the manifold, I am going to relay one of Teds suggestions that has worked beautifully on two of my motors and a number of my friends'. 

His recommendation, at least for the sub 5k rpm world we are in, is to keep the stock manifold. It is already basically a header. Then run 2" pipe from the down tube (or whatever it's called that connects to the manifold, still a factory Toyota part), then step up to a 2.25 high flow cat, to a 2.25 magnaflow or other true straight flow muffler.

This is a high flow setup and you get the advantage of that manifold which is QUIET. At least compared to the DT or an LCE that sound like you have little chirping birds under your hood.

On the older motors, that downtube (collector? Idk what the part is called) actually remains two separate tubes for like 2 feet, essentially giving you a tri-y header.

Anyway, if you are going to do a high flow catback, why not weld it up to the stock manifold and see how it goes? Might save yourself $400. Those headers sure do look purdy tho, haha.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 02, 2017, 04:26:06 AM
Hey andykrow,

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experiences.

Well… what you just described is almost exactly what I’ve experienced as I researched camshafts for the 22 over several years.

I am also somewhat surprised at the feedback on the 261C…. but… I also know there are many difference experiences with these vehicles and especially when it comes to engine rebuilds and power modifications… even the experts have different opinions.

As you probably know, Ted is a NASCAR Gold Wrench award winner.  He’s probably one of sharpest flow guys around.  I definitely respect his opinion.  Lately, I have had more conversations with Tod, his son, but Ted and I had some great back-and-forth on the Pirate site back a few years, and before that on the early Off-road.com site.

LOL… yeah my earlier posts on various cam comparison data is still in the FAQs on several sites….. despite the smack-down I got from skeptics about computer produced dyno data.  It may surprise many skeptics to find out how many serious race-engine builders use Performance Trends software! 

Based on my test data, my earlier choice was the CompCam 252S because at the time it was sold by one of the most reputable camshaft builders on the planet, and was a mild change to the stock cam specs.  I was primarily only looking for a small, but noticeable increase in torque in my target RPM range of 2500 to 3500, while maintaining a reasonable gas mileage.

As Ted at engbldr once confirmed on one of my posts, the results of a SuperFlo 902S tested engine may NOT simulate the same results on the race track as experienced by the driver.

I’ll work on compiling and posting my latest Engine Analyzer comparisons I did on several selected cam profiles specifically with our 2 rebuild specs.

I will figure out what the issues are with my rebuild, its just taking me WAY longer than I anticipated.

The one thing that has always REALLY bothered me is why I cannot get ANY actual dyno (engine or chassis) certified test data on the camshafts being sold for the Toyota 20/22R-RE engines!

On the exhaust... yes this is also something I've read about.  With my first 22RE, the exhaust changes were too big.  The DT header, muffler, cat, and 2.5" tubing caused a very noticeable loss in low end torque.  I had to change the tubing and the muffler.  The 22R responds differently to exhaust changes, in my opinion.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 02, 2017, 10:12:40 AM
Yeah I guess I always go the impression from Ted that he was doing some amount of testing on the dyno, but he wouldn't put up the actual numbers. Only a range of percent of increase. Which I guess makes sense from a business point of view, if you put up dyno numbers you are opening yourself up to every idiot with a truck that runs like crap trying to say your product doesn't run as advertised.

I spent a few years tuning a Wrx and I don't remember any of the mod companies I dealt with putting up real dyno results. They would just make a vague dyno-looking chart without any numbers (totally worthless) and really just say what "stage" you should be at to run that piece of gear. Maybe that has changed but it was Cobb and Turbo XS, pretty big names in the game, and they seemed to have no interest in provided a real chart to the public.

All in all with a 22RE cam, looking at those charts you posted it is apparent that mostly what is happening is shifting the power band one way or another. Peak torque and HP never vary by that much. I would certainly question anyone who can feel the difference between couple of ft/lbs or HP. It looks like the 252 should be a touch better than the 261. And I cant even really compare from when I owned one because now I am running a RV head with oversized valves. If Ted is right and that head provides 6-10% increase than that is far more than a cam change can do. I am a believer in that head, that is for sure :) I can't really see throwing $230 at the 252 to maybe gain 2 ft/lbs, haha.

Did engnbldr have any response to the lobes being off-center? Can't see that causing your engine issues, but it might speak to some QC issues in that production run.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 03, 2017, 04:41:13 AM
Hi andykrow,

Great commentary.

On my question about the lobe misalignment on my cam… Tod said that it is not uncommon and that it won’t cause any issues (paraphrased).

I understand all the aspects of sales, marketing, advertising, distribution, and profit-loss in a sales driven business model.  When I first read Ted’s posts on his Toyota 22 power enhancement products, I challenged him and at that time he could not, or would not share any test data… so I, like many, just had to take his expert “word” on the percentages.  As I recall his oversized valves will add about 7% to 8%.

Dyno numbers… over the years, anytime I had a chance to communicate with a supplier, I always asked for data to backup their claims.  So far, I have not seen any.

The Doug Thorley engineer I met and spoke with back around 1987 said the header I was having installed on my 22RE would increase power about 10%, again I asked for test data….crickets.

From 1977 thru 1986 I ran K&N air filters on all 3 of my sandrails….again I asked for their test data on performance gains and long term use… crickets. Here’s a link to their FAQs… read #2.  https://www.knfilters.com/faq.htm#2

It’s my opinion that many advertised power gain numbers are very optimistic, or simply inflated for marketing purposes, and not realistic for the average consumer.

Just my speculation…. If I take my 1985 stock 22R, rated at 96 HP, add a Doug Thorley header and 2.25 exhaust with free-flow and get 8 to 10%, that’s 105.6 HP. Then I add an RV head with over-sized valves, that adds another 7 to 8% - that’s 113 HP. Now install torquey camshaft, that adds 2 to 4%, that totals approximately 116 HP, or an increase of about 20 HP.  Is that reasonable?  I’d love to see an engine dyno test on SuperFlo 902S starting with a factory stock 22R or 22RE and adding a header, a ported head with OS valves, and a torquey cam.

My experience with the 22s is not as long as yours, but my experience is slightly different.  With the modifications I have made on all of my 22s, I could DEFINITELY feel the difference in throttle response, torque, and high end RPM.  I do believe that my butt dyno can, in fact, feel the difference in very small torque number changes.  My 85 factory stock 22R was rated at 96 HP, so small changes to an already under-powered truck was noticeable.

Can you feel the difference when you switch on your AC in your 22RE?  How much in HP or torque numbers is the drag on the engine?

Regarding publically shared product test data and false advertising… why would it not be perfectly legal for a supplier to share test data on a specific engine test with a specific product, with an appropriate disclaimer?

More than one expert Toyota 22 engine builder has told me that the primary restriction to the stock head is the port design.  WITHOUT porting the head - based upon flow bench testing - larger valves, cam profile changes, and opened exhaust will NOT be significant.

How much increase in torque and HP will a $1210 Stage 2 head from 22RE Performance add to my 1986 factory stock 22RE??????.... I don’t know.

Until I see some certified comparison test data, I have to go by the “experts”, Toyota aftermarket suppliers, anecdotal opinions, shared experiences of others, my experiences, and my years of research, and 1000s of hours doing mock pulls on my Engine Analyzer software.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 03, 2017, 08:00:19 PM
Hey andykrow,

I have attached an Excel sheet with 4 cams.  For this comparison I simply only changed the cam specs as published by the manufacturer or supplier.

I chose those cams because they closely match my desired power gain in torque in the RPM range I use the most.

These are just predicted numbers from my Engine Analyzer software, so they may or may not be what we would see on an actual engine dynamometer test.

Please compare the numbers for the CompCam 252S and the Schneider 244-50F... interesting numbers?

Based upon those numbers my choice today is the same one I chose about 13 years ago for my 22R… the CompCam 252S.

The engine specs are:  1986 22RE, .020” over bore, 1mm Over-size valves, Compression Ratio 9.6:1, header and free-flow exhaust.

The dyno program running conditions are:  29.82 Barometric pressure, Intake air temperature 80d F, Dew Point 37d F, Elevation 1,000 feet, Coolant Temperature 195, Fuel 87 Octane.

See attached Excel Sheet.

Please let me know what you think.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on May 03, 2017, 09:43:44 PM
This is just my 2 cents but I gave up a long time ago trying to make gains in a 22re because of the rom style engine control map(pre programmed) the early ECUs used. Just think about how basic electronics were in the 80s. if there are engine, intake, or exhaust modifications that alter the way that the engine flows, it will cause the air to fuel ratio to change. Without re-mapping the fuel tables, the performance gains from the modifications will not be realized. I would advise anyone rebuilding a 22re to stick to the stock configuration as much as possible. It does not contain modern technology that allows for learning as in todays ECUs. Carbureted 22r's are much more accepting of mechanical modifications because you are in control of the air/fuel. I don't think you can apply those spreadsheets to an engine that can't compensate for the changes. That's why LCE wants you to cut open your airbox and advance the teeth because it's a rudimentary way of trying to force it to add more fuel by tricking it into thinking it's getting more air which doesn't do anything for WOT. JET used to offer programming of the 22re ECU(with little success) for something like $400 plus you had to ship it to them but I don't think anyone does it anymore
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 04:46:00 AM
This is just my 2 cents but ..

Hey Liveoak,

Wow.. there are a lot of thoughts I have on your comments.

Squeezing more power out of any factory ECU controlled engine is a challenge at the very least, but it’s done all time.

I agree that the 22RE ECU is programmed to “control” the power, and limits changes outside of its “control”, and I have already posted my thoughts on this many times.  I have also commented that in my experience the power gain modifications to the 22R are way more noticeable and reasonable.

I also agree that the data from my DD is based on mathematical changes in the physical dimensions of a camshaft profile, and cannot evaluate or analyze the ECU programmed limitations and electronic ranges… which is very obvious to me when using the program.

I also believe that the cost per increase in numbers (Torque and HP) has been well documented in many posts on this subject.  In other words, people have spent several thousand dollars on aftermarket products to modify a 22RE and the results, by butt-dyno, was in many cases, less than expected.

My interest is not to get a neck-snapping increase in power out of 30 year old engine by bolting in a $100 camshaft and bolting on $600 worth of header and exhaust.  My primary interest was just to educate myself more about how this little engine works…. Learning by way of actual hands-on experience.

Regarding WOT (wide open throttle), I understand what that means to an engine.  Since I'm not building a race engine, the WOT response is way less important to me because I would practically only use WOT power in few driving situations.  My original main interest was to see if I could get more torque in the 2500 to 3500 range where I do 95% of my actual drive time.  I believe that even an increase in peak torque from 140 lbs to 150 lbs will be noticeable enough to make my daily driving more enjoyable. Based on the conversations I’ve had with expert Toyota engine builders, the 22RE injectors will only flow enough fuel to a limit of about 125 HP.  If that’s true, I’ll be happy to take my 116 HP engine to 125 HP.

So looking at the big picture, are the suppliers selling camshafts and larger valves to get more power in a 22RE  is just Bravo Sierra … “air-power”?  Would it be rational to speculate that the reason I don’t see any real engine dyno test data to back up claims by the suppliers of aftermarket products is the purported power gains are not factual?  :dunno:

Or are the experiences expressed on many automotive websites just Bravo Sierra?  :dunno:

I agree with your comment…. “I would advise anyone rebuilding a 22re to stick to the stock configuration as much as possible.”  That’s probably good advice.

Where would we be if we didn’t explore the unknown, break the rules, and think outside the box?  :dunno:

Cognitive Dissonance will always be present in the automotive world... and that is what makes it interesting. :thumbs:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on May 04, 2017, 06:20:14 AM
I agree we should explore the unknown, but also share what we learn from it. I fell down the 22re rabbit hole long ago. You're still an adjustable cam gear, bored throttle body and supra AFM behind where I was when I finally realized it is what it is. I only mentioned WOT because (on a 22re)it's the top end that suffers most from added air mods(big bores, big valves). The closer you get to WOT, the further you get from the pre-programmed fuel parameters. I hope you get your motor running to your satisfaction, I just thought I'd add some lessons learned to anyone reading this who's thinking about jumping into  the hole with us.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 06:49:07 AM
I agree we should explore the unknown, but also share what we learn from it. I fell down the 22re rabbit hole long ago. You're still an adjustable cam gear, bored throttle body and supra AFM behind where I was when I finally realized it is what it is. I only mentioned WOT because (on a 22re)it's the top end that suffers most from added air mods(big bores, big valves). The closer you get to WOT, the further you get from the pre-programmed fuel parameters. I hope you get your motor running to your satisfaction, I just thought I'd add some lessons learned to anyone reading this who's thinking about jumping into  the hole with us.

All information shared is a good thing.

I'm beyond the theoretical "it will work" and the theoretical "it won't work", I'm just trying to verify what "does work" for myself.

It's definitely appears to be a rabbit hole.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 04, 2017, 08:05:22 AM
Gnarly,

Thanks for the data! Very interesting. I would say it confirms what I have been thinking regarding the 2 cams as I drive my new motor a bit more. My butt dyno thinks the previous truck may have had a little more oomph right off the line. Only up to 1500 or so, and than this current motor just takes over, probably due to the OS valves.

It is a bit surprising that the 261 is so weak off idle, compared to the others. Mainly because as for drivability in my setup, I can't really ask for anything better than what I have. (Probably because the 35/5.29 combo is a little lower geared than stock.) I barely have to touch the gas starting from a standstill, she does not want to die.

Certainly, it looks like I would be doing even better if I had the 252 in there right now, but the extra $150 or so I would have had to spend makes me okay with my decision right now. (For now, haha.) My main concern is the 3-4.5k range, where the 261 and 252 are nearly identical. This is the high-altitude interstate pass-climbing range. Since my gearing is so low I am not concerned with torque under 2k.

Soo... With your motor... What is your plan for figuring out the issues?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 04, 2017, 08:13:07 AM
One thing I might note with regards to tuning the 22RE. They are always pretty weak, in my mind. So, one quickly becomes used to the mods that were done and the truck gets back to feeling slow. All I have to do when that happens is hop in one of my friend's toys to remind myself that I have the fastest 22re amongst them. ;)

I don't really know enough about tuning, but there is some sort of range available from the ecu. It is EFI after all, it does look at the mixture and adjust accordingly. So it stands to reason if I can increase flow I will get more power, within the limits of the fuel map and the injectors. Currently I am happy with the OS valves and open exhaust and I will never take that any further.

As for WOT, in this motor that is open loop, correct? So, with too much flow we are going to lean out the motor, possibly dangerously. If one could edit that WOT mapping maybe we could get somewhere.

Personally I nearly always stay out of WOT on these motors, they actually seem to have a bit more power when you are close to WOT but not all the way there.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 08:03:28 PM
..
It is a bit surprising that the 261 is so weak off idle, compared to the others.

This really surprised me also! ??  I've been trying to figure out where the data is getting the numbers...  6 degrees of overlap??

My butt dyno so far says this cam has lots of torque in the lower RPM range? 

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 08:34:22 PM
..
As for WOT, in this motor that is open loop, correct? So, with too much flow we are going to lean out the motor, possibly dangerously. ..

Yes, WOT for most EFI ECUs will bypass the O2 sensor input, which is only going to read lean or rich - I don't think the O2 sensor in our 22RE is a linear readout.  In open loop, I believe AFR goes rich, not lean.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 08:44:08 PM
Gnarly,  Soo... With your motor... What is your plan for figuring out the issues?

Well... I will look at the rockers and cam on Sunday.  I need to figure out what is making the noise I hear.  I am debating to stick in my old stock cam, for testing purposes, or just order the CompCam 252S? 

As much as I hate to pull the chamber and throttle body to get to that dad-gum pressure regulator, I need to replace it to be sure it's not causing a low fuel pressure issue to the injectors... possibly causing what I think is a lean mixture.

Beyond that, I'm overly analyzing my rebuild and wanting to get it sounding right to my ears.  Then get 1000 miles on it.

I'm frustrated with this rebuild, but not surprised at the challenges and speed bumps I have run into.

Knowing what I know now, and could go back in time, I would rethink it and do it differently.

Gnarls

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 04, 2017, 08:48:28 PM
Put a pressure gauge on the fuel system first so you don't have to pull things apart.............

I think   :headscratch: you can tap in on the cold start injector.......
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 04, 2017, 08:51:14 PM
http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm

You should be able to do above with a DIY solution........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 08:53:53 PM
Put a pressure gauge on the fuel system first so you don't have to pull things apart.............

I think   :headscratch: you can tap in on the cold start injector.......

Yeah.... not a bad idea... I've looked at this before:   http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 08:55:09 PM
http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm

You should be able to do above with a DIY solution........

Funny... I was just posting the link after I read your suggestion!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 08:56:43 PM
http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Kit-22RE-3VZ-EFI-p/2019128.htm

You should be able to do above with a DIY solution........

Geezz.. I've got close to $6,000 invested so far.... so another $60 or $70 seems like peanuts!! :dunno: 

And, if the pressure is OK, I'll have another cool tool to add to my garage!!!  A new fuel pressure regulator is about $70.


Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 04, 2017, 09:09:48 PM
emsvitil,

By testing fuel pressure at the cold start injector, will that confirm that the fuel pressure regulator is functioning properly? :dunno:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 04, 2017, 09:18:19 PM
I don't have a diagram at the moment, but I believe all injectors  are before the fuel pressure regulator....

If that's the case.........   Yes.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 04, 2017, 09:22:25 PM
I'd go with this:

http://www.lceperformance.com/Fuel-Pressure-Bolt-Kit-22RE-Fuel-rail-p/1093076.htm


and use a existing gauge I have laying around, and a npt plug when I'm done.........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 04, 2017, 09:33:08 PM
Cheaper if it's the correct size...........

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Russell-640700-M12-x-1-25-Banjo-Bolt-1-8-Fuel-Pressure-Gauge-Take-Off-Honda-/231925233035?hash=item35ffd2358b:g:BB8AAMXQfvlSjlbq&vxp=mtr
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 05, 2017, 03:50:41 AM
I replaced a fuel pressure regulator on an '85 22re 4runner without removing anything else.  I don't remembering it being easy, but it can be done.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 05, 2017, 04:24:54 AM
I replaced a fuel pressure regulator on an '85 22re 4runner without removing anything else.  I don't remembering it being easy, but it can be done.

Well... I stared at this for about 30 minutes.  I looked at the pressure regulator from every angle, and I cannot see how I can get a wrench on the hex part of the regulator to loosen it and re-tighten it.  Obviously its doable... you did it.  It needs to seat with the fuel rail very carefully and with the right amount of torque so there is no fuel leaks.  An open end wrench looks like the only tool that will work?

If there is a trick to getting to it and R&R'd without removing the chamber and throttle body, I'd like to know what it is.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 05, 2017, 09:02:01 AM
I don't have one to look at anymore, (cough, CARB!, cough, sniff) but I remember using a wrench and hurting my hand a little bit.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 05, 2017, 09:29:08 AM
I envy you guys with no emissions test :(
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 05, 2017, 10:11:58 AM
I envy you guys with no emissions test :(

Move :)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 05, 2017, 10:14:04 AM
But I love it here :) Maybe just further up into the mountains where emissions isn't required.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 05, 2017, 07:45:39 PM
But I love it here :) Maybe just further up into the mountains where emissions isn't required.

andykrow... are you at about 4500 to 5000 feet elevation?  My 22RE's work way better than my 22R engine at elevation.

Colorado is nice, and one of trail runs that I did not get to do, and everyone that I know who went there raved about the trips!  But..you couldn't blow me out of Casa Grande with hydrogen bomb!

I love the sunshine and the desert.  Obviously everything is a trade-off.... every geographic place has pluses and minuses.  The weather is a biggie for me.  On the way home this afternoon my car thermometer read 109 degrees F... felt like it too.

The good news is if we get 2 consecutive days of 100+ degrees, it will kill the flower blossoms... and reduce the "allergy season".

The desert can be a harsh place to survive. The animal life is abundant, but the survival rate is pretty low.  I've saved over a 100 honey bees from drowning in my pool, and a dozen or so baby birds from dying.  Last year I saved a baby Gecko lizard that had his leather egg sack stuck over his head.  He could barely breath.  He was about an inch and half long, very fragile.  I worked on him for about 45 minutes with a pair of cuticle scissors and a tootpick before I could get it off his head.  Funny thing is, he held still for me while I worked on him.

I rescued a baby sparrow on Wednesday. He was barely alive when I scooped him out of the pool.  I wasn't sure he was going to make it.  It took about 30 minutes in my hands to get him warmed up.  After he opened his eyes and started plucking himself, I sat him down in the sunshine on the cool deck and his Momma came almost immediately.  My wife watched him practically all day as the Momma bird fed him and tried to coax him to fly.  He finally flew into a nearby Palo Verde tree for the night just about the time the sun was setting.

I felt really good about saving another one of God's creatures.  I hope I put a nice deposit in my Karma bank.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 06, 2017, 11:11:46 AM
Yeah I live at 5200. We have some wheeling that gets up to 13k, and then I'll get down into the 3k area in Utah. Lots of elevation change. When I had a FJ60 that was too much for the jets. It was either good in the high country or good low, I could never get it to handle both. (Plus the mileage was ridiculously horrible for a truck that could barely do 65, haha)

We are very close to being desert here, we see 300 days of sunshine and not a lot of rain. It rarely hits 100 degrees and winter is pretty mild too. It's also never humid. If you need cold air in the dead of summer it's only an hour away. Just drive west and up!

I love the desert though. I get to Utah 2-3 times a year or more. Basically it's where we go on vacation :) I'd consider moving there but the beer situation would be upsetting.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 07, 2017, 04:25:05 AM
....I'd consider moving there but the beer situation would be upsetting.

Some people I know would not call it "beer"!  :shake:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 07, 2017, 04:32:28 AM
.... Currently I am happy with the OS valves and open exhaust and I will never take that any further.


When I compare the stock valves and the 1mm over-sized valves in our current rebuilt engine specs (261C cam), my DD shows only 1 lb. average increase in torque, and a peak increase of 5 HP around 5,400 RPM with the over-sized valves.  That increase is about 3.1%.  So from those numbers, the increase in power is at the top end of the RPM range, and doesn't seem to help that much for torque at the lower RPMs.

SEE ATTACHED EXCEL SHEET.

Compare the numbers from 1000 RPM to where the over-sized valves start to show increase.

The stock valves produce more torque up to 2700 RPMs.

Again... just numbers in a computer program.  :dunno:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Lewis Hein on May 07, 2017, 11:07:02 AM
Gnarls,

I have been reading this thread with interest, and one thing occurs to me about your cam that it seems no-body has mentioned. If they have, or you have already thought of it, forgive my repetitiveness.

You have been expressing doubts about the quality of this cam for a while. Others have come along insisting that theirs works fine. I'm not trying to settle this debate -- I'm sure there are people that use these cams with wonderful results.

I have also heard vague accusations around the web that Enginebldr may be cutting corners. I have no knowledge whatever of this, but if it were true, it could explain a lot. If they are cutting corners, I don't think that it would mean their cams are uniformly bad. Instead, they might be non-uniformly great. Put another way, they might not hold good tolerances, so for some particular model, 50% of their cams might be wonderful, 40% good, and 10% duds. It occurs to me that you might have got a dud (especially your much earlier comment that it seemed rough), and the good experience of others with this particular cam wouldn't mean nuthin' to the contrary.

I'm pretty sure you have had similar thoughts to what I just outlined. But coming from an outside perspective (admittedly, one that includes very little general knowledge of engine tuning), this seems like a highly possible explanation.

I am anxious to see what you find out about fuel pressure. By all means, check the cheap and easy things first. But my 2c is not to forget the cam.

Lewis.

P.S. I run a carb
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 07, 2017, 04:31:39 PM
Gnarls,

I have been reading this thread with interest....

Hi Lewis,

Thanks for your thoughts and observations.

I have also read good and bad comments over the years regarding the quality of engbldr’s quality of parts sold.  But I've read good and bad comments on just about everything I’ve researched on the internet.

It is certainly possible I got bad or defective camshaft.  And, there have been some bad experiences with this camshaft posted here.

Yes, I have considered several possibilities.  Over the years I’ve purchased aftermarket parts from different sources and gotten bad parts.  I think it is way too common with aftermarket parts, probably most coming out of China.

My comments about the visual appearance of the cam are based on seeing 3 other cams for a 22.  The other thing that caught my attention when I installed the rocker rack was how far off the rocker pads were to the cam lobes.
My stock camshaft has rocker pad to lobe misalignment of .030” smallest to .068” largest.  Not one lobe was worn perfectly across the entire width.  But, the 261C cam has several pads that are off the lobe between .108” to .112”, and I posted photos of this.  So I immediately felt there could be a “quality control” issue here… a bad casting.  Even though Tod at engbldr said it's OK, I still don’t think the alignment should be off that much.

The old adage, "You get what you pay for" has been shown to be true with Toyota parts.  Engbldr's prices are lower than most sources for aftermarket performance camshafts for the 20/22s.  :dunno:

I mic’d the camshaft I removed from the old head, and all lobes heights are within FSM spec.

I was not able to remove the rocker rack today, but I will in the next few days.

I wish I was running a carb'd engine!

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 07, 2017, 05:26:21 PM
... My main concern is the 3-4.5k range, where the 261 and 252 are nearly identical. This is the high-altitude interstate pass-climbing range. Since my gearing is so low I am not concerned with torque under 2k.

Yes, I see they are nearly identical numbers in that range, with the CC252S pulling a little harder between 4300 to 4800.

Look at the torque numbers for the Compcam and the 261C between 2500 and 3500 RPM.  THAT is the reason I am interested in the CC252S!  Of course, those are just numbers out of computer program.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Lewis Hein on May 07, 2017, 07:36:25 PM
I figured you'd thought of most of this.... but just the whole sound of that cam makes me really suspicious. Again, I have laughably little experience rebuilding engines, but you get a cam from a supplier with lower prices, it looks funny and the measurements aren't right, and you keep having problems that could be cam-related. It just seems like a really plausible tale.

  But, the 261C cam has several pads that are off the lobe between .108” to .112”, and I posted photos of this...Even though Tod at engbldr said it's OK, I still don’t think the alignment should be off that much

If I read that right the new cam is at least .04" smaller than the old, and considerably more in places. I'm not an award-winning racecar tweaker, but speaking as a machinist, If I'd made any part, let alone an engine cam, that far off it would've gone right to the scrap bin. I literally can't remember the last time I held a tolerance that loose on anything! Of course, I've never made an engine cam, so my knowledge is limited. But the idea of such loose tolerances being "OK" gives my inner machinist fits.

This is just an under-educated opinion. It is subject to instant revision as more knowledgeable say what they think.

Lewis
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 08, 2017, 04:45:50 AM
UPDATE MAY 8 - AM

Without degreeing* the 261C cam…  and it annoys me to think I should have to go to the extra expense and time to degree a camshaft to prove its specs are correct as published by the supplier.  BUT… that* is the suggested safe bet.

After more physical inspection of the stock cam profile.  Using the typical FSM procedure for adjusting valve lash, the measurement with a feeler gauge will be at the following location on each cam lobe:

From the front - in degrees from base of circle (opposite lobe peak)

#1 Intake….…90
#2 Exhaust…..90
#3 Exhaust….180
#4 Intake……180
#5 Intake……180
#6 Exhaust…180
#7 Exhaust….90
#8 Intake…… 90

Since the noise I’m hearing seems like rockers?, and knowing that the lash measurement on number 1 cylinder, which is done at 90 degrees from lobe peak, measured tighter than cam spec - .007” and .009” - after re-adjusting the lash at the base of the circle.  So… that may indicate that the ramp of the lobe on the 261C starts earlier than the stock cam.
In other words, if the ramp has started at 90 degrees from base, the lash adjustment made at that location will make the base circle measurement looser, a valve lash greater than the cam specs…. possibly causing excessive rocker tick?
In cam profile design, it makes sense to slow the closing of the valve before it hits the valve seat… helping reduce valve bounce and slam noise.

I am assuming the 261C has the same 110 degree lobe center as the stock cam.

The only two cylinders, that are adjusted according the procedure in the FSM that could affect the “correct” cam spec adjustment are 1 and 8.

Tod at engbldr did, in fact, suggest that I adjust the lash at the base of the lobe circle.  So, I will re-check and re-adjust the valve lash at number 1 and 8 cylinders and see if that makes any difference in the noise I’m hearing.  I will also carefully not over-torque the rocker cover.

NOTE:  For those of you who are running aftermarket performance cams in a 20/22 and may not be savvy on this procedure (base circle valve lash adjust), for this engine you only have to do this for number 1 and number 8 cylinders… unless otherwise recommended by the cam supplier.

Gnarls…. that’s just my opinion, it may be worthless.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 08, 2017, 09:53:40 AM
Some people I know would not call it "beer"!  :shake:

Gnarls.

Well, over the 15-ish years I have been going to Utah things are slowly improving. Utah breweries can make full strength now. You just have to buy it in state-run liquor stores. A few years back everyone working in one of these was a deputized sheriff. At the Moab store the clerk usually had a visible gun and badge. And you still can't buy 6 packs or 12 packs, all beer is sold by the individual can or bottle which ends up being 2-3x what we pay in CO.  :shake:

Again, interesting spreadsheet! My butt dyno denies the low torque (haha), but the little bit of highway I have done is confirming what I see over 3k. My truck is pulling hills in 5th around 3k that definitely required a downshift before.

As for engnbldr, I have used the full timing "front end kit" twice and been very happy with the fit and finish. I put 50k-ish on both trucks that had that before I sold them with no issues. This and Ted always being so helpful to me led me to make my purchase. My machinist said the head and cam looked "great" and did not need to clean up the head in any way. Interestingly, he refused to put on the head gasket that I got from engnbldr, insisting that I go OEM Toyota. He said the brand engnbldr included tends to let loose after 30k miles.

Have you gone through everything but the cam at this point?

Can you describe more about the "base circle valve lash adjust" and why that is only done to 1 and 8 intake?

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 08, 2017, 11:03:31 AM
...
Can you describe more about the "base circle valve lash adjust" and why that is only done to 1 and 8 intake?


Yes... when adjusting valve lash per FSM, those two cylinders will be at 90 degrees on each peak cam lobe.  The other 6 will be located at the base of circle.  I'll post a photo tonight.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 08, 2017, 01:00:44 PM
Well, just went through emissions and failed pretty bad on NOx. 33% higher than the allowable level. HC was SUPER low at 2% allowed, CO very low as well at under 0.5% allowed. My thinking is that I am lean.

Plan is to replace all vacuum hoses (not sure why I didn't do that before, they just all looked fine.), back the timing down to 0 degrees, and possibly move the AFM a click or two towards rich. It certainly looks like I have some room to move in that direction. Based on HC and CO. It has a new catalytic converter so that should not be hurting anything.

If I fail again after that I'll start my own thread on it, haha.

EDIT: Went ahead and started a thread. Don't want to hijack your engine issues, Gnarly.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 08, 2017, 07:56:28 PM
Hey andykrow...

That's OK, I've been hijacked before!!  :gap:

Your emissions failure due to high NOx may be related to my issue???

As you already know your high NOx is typically caused by a lean mixture.

I'm really hoping this 261C is not the cause of what I so far see as a lean mixture.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 08, 2017, 07:57:50 PM
Yes... when adjusting valve lash per FSM, those two cylinders will be at 90 degrees on each peak cam lobe.  The other 6 will be located at the base of circle.  I'll post a photo tonight.

Gnarls.


If I adjust valve lash for #1 and #8 cam lobes, per the FSM procedure the lobes for both cylinders are positioned the same, so I would be measuring with the feeler gauge on the beginning of the ramp on the flank of the lobe or at 90 degrees from the nose of the lobe.  That area is where I believe the 261C seems to start it's duration, and of course on the exhaust lobe, where it would end its closing of the valve.  Does that make sense?

Naturally, I could be totally full of Bravo Sierra! :yikes:

I know, I know... I should just invest in a cam degree wheel and other tools necessary!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 09, 2017, 09:18:55 AM
Okay, so basically #1 and #8 intake could be a little on the tight side. Have you re-adjusted for this yet?

EDIT: brain fart, they would be a little on the loose end of things. decrease overlap, yes? What is the effect on mixture?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 12, 2017, 02:56:10 PM
Update May 12th, Friday

I have been delayed to get to work on my truck.  I have ordered the LCE Fuel Pressure Gauge Kit for the 22RE.  I still need to check the valve lash adjustment.  I will also do the same test on the EGR as andykrow has done.

I hope to work on it late next week.

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 17, 2017, 07:32:43 PM
Update May 17th, Wednesday PM.

I just received my new LCE Fuel Pressure Gauge. 

I didn't realize that it is NOT to be a permanently installed gauge, just for testing then remove it.

I will try to get it installed, test the fuel pressure and post a report.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 17, 2017, 07:38:13 PM
Please let us know what the thread sizes are for the banjo bolt (12mm x 1.5 ? ? ?)  so the rest of us can be frugal........



 :wave:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 17, 2017, 07:43:10 PM
Please let us know what the thread sizes are for the banjo bolt (12mm x 1.5 ? ? ?)  so the rest of us can be frugal........

 :wave:

I will.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on May 19, 2017, 06:04:13 PM
Again, interesting spreadsheet! My butt dyno denies the low torque (haha), but the little bit of highway I have done is confirming what I see over 3k. My truck is pulling hills in 5th around 3k that definitely required a downshift before.

I completely agree with no low end with the 261 cam. On my way from Utah to Montana and home to Washington any time the RPM'do went below 3k I was down shifting.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 19, 2017, 06:10:03 PM
I completely agree with no low end with the 261 cam. On my way from Utah to Montana and home to Washington any time the RPM'do went below 3k I was down shifting.

Well.. that drop you experience is supposed to be the "increase"... its touted as a "crawler" cam!  Does the 6 degrees of overlap in a 22RE cause the drop in torque in the lower RPMs??????   :dunno:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 19, 2017, 06:17:36 PM
Look at the torque numbers on this Excel sheet produced by Engine Analyzer - from off-idle to 3,000 RPM for the 261C compared to the stock cam, and the other profiles.

Mudder, do those torque numbers seem close to what you are experiencing?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 20, 2017, 03:07:38 AM
The Schnieder is interesting too.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 20, 2017, 04:20:04 AM
The Schnieder is interesting too.

Yes... that Schneider cam is showing some very strong torque numbers from 1K.  It also shows slightly more torque and HP from 4000 to 4500 RPM.  That range is where extra power would be nice when I have had to shift down for long uphill freeway climbs.

I'm tempted to buy that cam as my first cam swap "test".  I've been told by one Toy engine builder that those differences in numbers, produced by the cam, will not be noticeable in my butt-dyno without specific head modifications - larger valves and flow-tested porting.

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on May 20, 2017, 11:05:19 AM
Look at the torque numbers on this Excel sheet produced by Engine Analyzer - from off-idle to 3,000 RPM for the 261C compared to the stock cam, and the other profiles.

Mudder, do those torque numbers seem close to what you are experiencing?

Gnarls.

If that were accurate it would explain why I prefer the stock cam over the 261. I do disagree with it going all the way to redline as over 4.5-5k the cam just falls flat on its face.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 21, 2017, 09:07:43 AM
UPDATE MAY 21, Sunday AM

I tested the fuel pressure according to LCE's site:

EFI 22RE:
Disconnect the vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator and plug it, you should see 38 – 44 psi
Reconnect the vacuum hose to the fuel pressure regulator. Measure the fuel pressure at idling you should see 33 – 38 psi.
Stop the engine. Check that the fuel pressure remains above 21 psi for 5 minutes after the engine is turned off.
If pressure is high, replace the fuel pressure regulator.
If pressure is low, check the following parts:
• Fuel hoses and connections
• Fuel pump
• Fuel filter
• Fuel pressure regulator

And it passed all tests.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 06:30:12 AM
If that were accurate it would explain why I prefer the stock cam over the 261. I do disagree with it going all the way to redline as over 4.5-5k the cam just falls flat on its face.

Hey Mudder,

Can I assume that you have checked out other possible causes for your engine to "fall flat on its face" at around 4500 and 5000 RPMs?  Or.. are you convinced its the 261C cam?

Have you talked to Tod or Ted at engbldr?

How many miles on your rebuild?

Are you planning to change the cam?

Thanks,

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 22, 2017, 07:45:33 AM
Well that rules out fuel pressure.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 08:18:21 AM
Well that rules out fuel pressure.

Hi H8PVMNT,

Yes... I'm glad because I didn't want to have to buy a new fuel pressure regulator, and R&R the chamber.  I doubt the new fuel filter could be so plugged it is causing a problem.

I'm at the point where I'm trying decide to just reinstall the stock cam that came out of head.  Or... buy a new camshaft.  If I buy a new cam, I'm debating between the one I had originally picked based on owner's feedback and Engine Analyzer's data -CompCam 252S.  It still shows the best numbers for my 2500 to 3500 RPM range.   BUT..... since I have done some mock pulls on the Schneider cams.... one of them looks VERY interesting and could be a good choice for me.

Here's the Excel sheet that I posted before, but I've added the Schneider cams.

What do you think?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 22, 2017, 09:37:51 AM
For me it would be a toss between the 252S and the Schneider 244-50 (tug boat bottom end).  The bottom Schneider is kind of interesting too but it seems kind of contrary to what you are aiming for since it looks more peaky.

I think the 252S is your best bet though...
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on May 22, 2017, 10:32:13 AM
I think if you chose either cam you would significantly increase the number of dollars you've spent on the motor which is where the upgrade will be most noticeable. at least with a thinner wallet,  your butt dyno will be lower in the seat and you might be able to feel a difference.
in all seriousness, you should take all future funds you plan on spending and save for a dual overhead cam 2rz/3rz and never look back. i feel like I am pleading with a gambling addict who thinks if he keeps spending more he will win :)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on May 22, 2017, 11:37:03 AM
I think if you chose either cam you would significantly increase the number of dollars you've spent on the motor which is where the upgrade will be most noticeable. at least with a thinner wallet,  your butt dyno will be lower in the seat and you might be able to feel a difference.
in all seriousness, you should take all future funds you plan on spending and save for a dual overhead cam 2rz/3rz and never look back. i feel like I am pleading with a gambling addict who thinks if he keeps spending more he will win :)

Then again, it was a 22R-E and an old 22R that were in Moab if that has any bearing on this discussion about which engine is the best...

Maybe when Gnarls has his 2nd or 3rd midlife crisis he will springs for a V6 Camaro or Mustang and then get some bolt-on upgrades for performance...
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Snowtoy on May 22, 2017, 12:29:27 PM
I'm at the point where I'm trying decide to just reinstall the stock cam that came out of head.

2 months in, still not running right, this is what you should do, not buying another cam.

The stock cam will remove any "cam cause" from your running issues, and allow you to focus on other possible causes if your running issues remain.  You will also have a "stock" cam w/rebuild/other mods seat of the pants experience to compare with the other cams.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on May 22, 2017, 12:33:00 PM
I love my 22r and I don't want a 3RZ in my 4Runner anymore, but I will concede you will never, ever get the power, drivability and economy of the 3RZ with a 22RE, even on a pimp's budget.

I still have that extra carb manifold for you though :).
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 01:10:45 PM
I think if you chose either cam you would significantly increase the number of dollars you've spent on the motor which is where the upgrade will be most noticeable. at least with a thinner wallet,  your butt dyno will be lower in the seat and you might be able to feel a difference.
in all seriousness, you should take all future funds you plan on spending and save for a dual overhead cam 2rz/3rz and never look back. i feel like I am pleading with a gambling addict who thinks if he keeps spending more he will win :)

As I move through this rebuild project, I am concerned about my out of pocket costs in money.  I grossly under estimated the cost and time of the project.

I am not happy with the outcome and disappointed that the number of real and potential failures is so unexpected… it’s my inexperience and insufficient pre-start research.

I hope to get it running right without too much more financial investment.  Although I’m well north of $5,000, so a few hundred here and there to get it running the way I think it should doesn’t seem so significant now.

Regarding engine swaps, at this point, I would only consider swapping in a Toyota 22R, no other Toyota engine.  As I said, I will keep an open mind.

If I do an engine swap it would be Chevy 4.3L Vortec or I might build a 215ci aluminum block, like the old 1963 Buicks… but to get a referee pass and passed any emissions testing could be problem.

By the way, I’m not a gambler, but I am somewhat eccentric and probably addicted to my quest to make this rebuild successful.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 01:18:44 PM
I love my 22r and I don't want a 3RZ in my 4Runner anymore, but I will concede you will never, ever get the power, drivability and economy of the 3RZ with a 22RE, even on a pimp's budget.
 

I agree, but I was only really after a few more lbs of torque and a couple more HPs for passing.

As I said, if I wanted a reasonably low cost investment, serious power, with high reliability, availability of parts, fuel economy, and me being able to work on it... I'd swap in a Chevy 4.3 L Vortec V-6.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 01:24:17 PM
2 months in, still not running right, this is what you should do, not buying another cam.

The stock cam will remove any "cam cause" from your running issues, and allow you to focus on other possible causes if your running issues remain.  You will also have a "stock" cam w/rebuild/other mods seat of the pants experience to compare with the other cams.


Yeah.... that's the direction I'm leaning heavily in right now. 

I don't what the 261C to be the problem, but I should have gone with my gut feeling..... CompCam 252S.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 01:28:43 PM
Then again, it was a 22R-E and an old 22R that were in Moab if that has any bearing on this discussion about which engine is the best...

Maybe when Gnarls has his 2nd or 3rd midlife crisis he will springs for a V6 Camaro or Mustang and then get some bolt-on upgrades for performance...

I'm not sure which midlife crisis I'm in, but I can tell you that I would NOT have a 6 cylinder in a Camaro or Mustang!!!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: liveoak on May 22, 2017, 01:41:15 PM
Gnarls, I'm just giving you a hard time. I appreciate your willingness to share your frustrations with us. I think most of us have gone through this in one way or the other we're just not so brave to let the wolves gnaw on us. I also ended up putting the stock cam back in my 22re build and it did solve some of the rough running issues I was experiencing. I feel we have a lot in common as I'm considered an eccentric(and a smart ass)  by most who know me. I like to keep an eye on this thread, it's like someone is ghost writing my 22re build story.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 22, 2017, 02:19:48 PM
Gnarls,

Just to recap where you are at with this, you are happy with off-idle performance, is that correct? The main problems are bad cold starts, a high idle that does not work, and then idling too high after it is warmed up?

Did you ever block off the EGR? If that leaks slightly you'll have all sorts of idle problems. Adjust TPS? Get timing back to stock? Get number 1 and 8 valves adjusted correctly?

Another couple hundred miles on mine and I am very happy. I seem to be getting more power. The 261 may not have the idle power band for you but it seems unlikely that it is the cause of your problems.

I do agree with a post a while back that the 261 likes a little higher idle. I have mine set around 900. At 750 it is a bit rough and does a little of the random blub-blub thing, like it wants to miss but not quite that bad.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: toyodaaddict on May 22, 2017, 02:35:08 PM
Arnt you running engnbldr's rv head? when I was considering going that route Tod told me that I couldnt run a stock cam with the RV head ( I wanted to know if going back to stock was an option if I didnt like the aftermarket cam). I dont know why it wouldnt work but if your planning to give it a try you might ask him about it first.

The symptoms andykrow just mentioned, if thats what your experiencing it sounds like classic IAC valve symptoms. I think you have already been through that but thats what it sound like to me.

Good luck, and keep after it  :thumbs:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 02:47:26 PM
Gnarls,

Just to recap where you are at with this, you are happy with off-idle performance, is that correct? The main problems are bad cold starts, a high idle that does not work, and then idling too high after it is warmed up?

Did you ever block off the EGR? If that leaks slightly you'll have all sorts of idle problems. Adjust TPS? Get timing back to stock? Get number 1 and 8 valves adjusted correctly?

Another couple hundred miles on mine and I am very happy. I seem to be getting more power. The 261 may not have the idle power band for you but it seems unlikely that it is the cause of your problems.

I do agree with a post a while back that the 261 likes a little higher idle. I have mine set around 900. At 750 it is a bit rough and does a little of the random blub-blub thing, like it wants to miss but not quite that bad.

Yeah... I have had more than expected issues.

Flat-spotted tires
Fuel pump failure
Front input shaft seal on tranny was leaking, but may have stopped leaking right now.
Injector pigtail connector on #1 injector had to be replaced.
Had to buy fuel pressure gauge to test the fuel pressure regulator.
Won't cold start like it should
Noise in rocker cover.. that has me concerned!
Could be running a lean AF mixture, I don't know if its the cam and it's overlap.
The idle RPM would change after driving it, went up by 150 to 200 RPMs.
The low RPM blubber at slack throttle is abnormal, but I can live with that.. again it may be the overlap in cam.

I still need to test the EGR, readjust the valve lash before I swap the cam, and readjust the TPS, pull the plugs again to check color, and get some more miles on it before doing another compression check.

It's now got a loud squeal when I cold start it!!!!!!  I think its a v-belt (the belts are tight, but I will recheck), and sounds like a pulley, alternator, or A/C pump pulley is not spinning at start up??? It goes away after about 2 or 3 seconds after it fires.

Yes, it does seem to have nice lower RPM pull.

I can live with a 900 RPM idle.

My time and attention to my truck has been pushed back a little due to a some health issues in my 69 year old body!!

Sucks to get old!!

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 03:03:07 PM
Gnarls, I'm just giving you a hard time. I appreciate your willingness to share your frustrations with us. I think most of us have gone through this in one way or the other we're just not so brave to let the wolves gnaw on us. I also ended up putting the stock cam back in my 22re build and it did solve some of the rough running issues I was experiencing. I feel we have a lot in common as I'm considered an eccentric(and a smart ass)  by most who know me. I like to keep an eye on this thread, it's like someone is ghost writing my 22re build story.

Well.. that's interesting, you put the stock cam back in!

The wolves don't bother me, they usually make me laugh or give me some good advice.  I like the banter, it adds lots a fun to the sometimes boring technoid-talk, and smart-arse comments always rev up the dialog and brings out the bugs in forum walls.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 22, 2017, 03:10:32 PM
Arnt you running engnbldr's rv head? when I was considering going that route Tod told me that I couldnt run a stock cam with the RV head ( I wanted to know if going back to stock was an option if I didnt like the aftermarket cam). I dont know why it wouldnt work but if your planning to give it a try you might ask him about it first.

The symptoms andykrow just mentioned, if thats what your experiencing it sounds like classic IAC valve symptoms. I think you have already been through that but thats what it sound like to me.

Good luck, and keep after it  :thumbs:



Yes, engbldr's RV head, with OS valves with 261C cam.

OK, I'll check with Tod on this cam.  bestgen said he thinks my idle/start up issues is the Air Valve.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on May 22, 2017, 03:11:05 PM
classic IAC valve symptoms.
Yup. Isn't the test to close the idle screw all the way in once the engine is warmed up? If it doesn't die then the IAC is leaking air through when it shouldn't. I hear an air bubble can sit there in the coolant and and cause trouble although I have not experienced that myself.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Mudder on May 22, 2017, 03:35:51 PM
Hey Mudder,

Can I assume that you have checked out other possible causes for your engine to "fall flat on its face" at around 4500 and 5000 RPMs?  Or.. are you convinced its the 261C cam?

Have you talked to Tod or Ted at engbldr?

How many miles on your rebuild?

Are you planning to change the cam?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Gnarls, my last 22re came from my old truck, an 89 22re with an auto tranny so it was in amazing shape. I won't be swapping cams as I'm moving away from the 22re for now. My 84 is getting a 3rz swap (thank you H8!) with a turbo or supercharger and my regular I'll go back into my 89.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 22, 2017, 04:06:20 PM
Injector pigtail connector on #1 injector had to be replaced.


Could the other injector pigtails be bad (but not as bad) ?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Lewis Hein on May 22, 2017, 04:39:37 PM

It's now got a loud squeal when I cold start it!!!!!!  I think its a v-belt (the belts are tight, but I will recheck), and sounds like a pulley, alternator, or A/C pump pulley is not spinning at start up??? It goes away after about 2 or 3 seconds after it fires.

This "loud squeal" that dies out after 2-3 seconds isn't so abnormal in my experience. When I was driving a '93 22RE with 100k on it, it would squeal on start-up if the temp was below 25F or so.

Not saying it's not something to fix, just that it may not be a fixing emergency.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on May 22, 2017, 11:17:35 PM
Gnarly,


So what's the thread size on that banjo bolt for the fuel pressure tester?


 :cheese:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 23, 2017, 04:50:26 AM
Gnarly,


So what's the thread size on that banjo bolt for the fuel pressure tester?


 :cheese:

Hey emsvitil...

I need to confirm what I think it is at Ace Hardware.  I'm about 97% sure it's 8mm x 1.0mm.... but I don't want to give you the wrong thread size.

The other threads are standard 1/8 NPT.

I'll stop by Ace this afternoon after work and verify it.

Sorry for the delay.

Gnarls
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on May 23, 2017, 05:51:21 PM
Hey emsvitil,

Pete, the nut & bolt guru at my local Ace Hardware confirmed... it's 8mm x 1.0mm.  :biggthumpup:

Gnarls. :D
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Jun 26, 2017, 12:00:24 PM
Since the 261C and RV head is a big part of this thread I'll keep updating here.

Anyway I decided it was time to do some high speed pass climbing this weekend, so we put 500 miles on it on the way to a wedding in BV. I am very happy with the performance so far. This build compares favorably to other 22re's I have had especially considering the tire size and rig height. I was able to pull the 3rd gear hills easily at 4-4.5k rpms. These are the type of hills that a weak 22re will require 2nd gear with. A couple of times i missed the power band and was at 2800 or so, and was still able to accelerate, albeit slowly. And then at the higher rpms I was happy to see that I really did not need to be on the gas pedal hard at all.

The next hill test will be east bound i70, vail pass and eisenhower tunnel. If I can get those at 3rd gear I will be very impressed. Even stronger 22re's typically need 2nd gear on them. I probably won't be on those until fall, so that test will be a ways out.

Other notes - idle was noticeably lower at 8.5k feet. About 750 rpm instead of 900. Around 850 - 900 is where I like to sit with this cam, it gets a little rough under that. Back in Foco the idle was right back where I have it set.

I do still finding myself think a little more off idle torque would be nice. Maybe I will try the 252 in there in a couple of years. But I also need to drive another 22re truck every once in a while to reacquaint myself with how they take off from a standstill.

Finally, best part, with 500 miles of hilly highway, keeping her around 65-70 mph, I pulled 23 mpgs over the whole trip! :clap2: Strangely, I have always found that out here in CO my 22re's get better mileage with hilly highway driving compared to flat land.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Jun 26, 2017, 02:44:32 PM
I have similar experiences even with a carb 22r.  I almost always get my best fuel economy pulling 4th of July and Lookout Pass when I head to the coast and back.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jun 27, 2017, 04:24:48 AM
Hey andykrow,

Great information.. thank you for the feedback.

I’m happy to read that your rebuilt is performing well.  I would guess that some people would say that at 500 miles on a rebuilt 22RE is still a little tight. I find it very interesting to read the differences in outcomes from the engine rebuilds. I’ve been compiling information for years trying to come up with some kind of trend or common results, but I’m not sure I have any conclusive facts.

The lower RPM at 8500 feet is a little puzzling, but I assume it’s the richer mixture.  Getting 23 MPG at that elevation AND hill climbing is awesome!  My 1st 1986, I bought in 1986, one time got 28 MPG, but I was really trying to see how good I could get on a tankful… on the flat, no wind, cool weather, no AC on, 60 to 65 MPH, light on the gas pedal.

What octane, formula, and whose brand of fuel are you burning?

Off idle torque… well that is what the 261C is supposed to do.

Sorry about the lack of updates here.  In my last 2 years of physical exams the Drs say I’m in excellent health for my age, so when I suffered a ruptured disc between L4 and L5 about 5 weeks ago, causing Sciatica from my right butt cheek down to my toes, it has put the brakes on me crawling all over my truck.  Treatment is ongoing, so I hope to be able to continue with solving the issues I have with my rebuild.  Of course right now my garage is 100 degrees.  Doing my obligatory early morning outside chores 3 times a week kicks my old arse!
 
Back to tech….I am curious about your compression at 500 miles and what the spark plugs look like. Also, when you adjusted your valve lash, did do it as described in the FSM or with rocker sitting on bottom of the base circle?

Congratulations on a job well done!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jun 27, 2017, 04:28:44 AM
I have similar experiences even with a carb 22r.  I almost always get my best fuel economy pulling 4th of July and Lookout Pass when I head to the coast and back.

The 22s were built to "work"... they like to be exercised.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Jun 27, 2017, 09:42:11 AM
Ah what I meant by 500 miles was the that was how long the trip was, and that was the distance I measured the mileage over. I am about to hit 2000 total miles on the rebuild. No change in valve noise, still quiet. Still chasing a slight exhaust leak (or it's the DT just being noisy?) but I'm about to permanently solve it by turning up the radio.

As for gas, I just use the cheapest, lowest octane I can find. Typically King Soopers ("City Market" where you are?) because of the fuel points. Up at this altitude we get 85 octane so that is what I use. I'll put 87 in at lower altitudes of course.

I have not had a chance to do a compression test and I don't really have any plans to buy a tester, so it will probably be a while before I get a chance to do that. I can say that with about 1700 miles on my current oil, the level has not moved in the slightest on the dipstick. So my rings seem to be seated. Definitely no oil leaks. (first time ever, haha) Great power so my guess is compression is fine.

I have not adjusted valves yet, but I do plan on doing that in the next couple of weeks. I will stick to engnbldr's 007/009 spec, and I will definitely use the base circle technique.

Now.. the off-idle torque... I think I really need to sit down in another truck and compare. In general these 22re's are weak and I will find myself annoyed at them from time to time. So apparently depending on my mood this will feel like it's making great power or it will feel weak as $hit. This truck does require very little gas to get moving so that is a good sign. I do really feel it come on after 2500, and that is really nice for the highway driving as I've said several times. If I traded the highway power for more off-idle power that would NOT be acceptable - the only time the off-idle bothers me is driving around town. So if there is a compromise to be had I am happy where I am at.

I do think the low idle is a rich mixture issue. At first I thought it was happening after driving highway for 4 hours in 90 degree weather, that has happened in a couple other 22re trucks. Drive it all day and it idles low. BUT, in this case, the next morning, as soon as the high warm-up idle went away the idle was low again. Then as soon as I got back into low altitude the idle was normal.

I am definitely surprised and pleased by that mileage. I was not trying to baby it and there were head winds for a lot of the drive so I think I can get better. The best I could get out of the old engine was 19 mpg. The best I ever saw was from my first Toyota - a 1980 4x4, with a hybrid 20/22, weber 32/36, DT open exhaust. 31's, 4 speed and 4.10s, got 28 mpg on a 3000 mile road trip that included a fair amount of wheeling. I wish I could say I tuned it (then I would have some info for H8PVMNT) but alas I bought it from someone who was apparently a master of that setup.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jun 29, 2017, 03:58:45 AM
Hey andykrow,

OK, sorry I misread your post on mileage.  Geezz… I wish I had 2000 miles on my rebuild.

Exhaust leak… The DT header will sound different and sounds like a tinny ping, I like the sound.  I’ve read that you can tape a vacuum cleaner hose to the end of the tailpipe and listen for air sounds??

I’d really like to know what your compression is, but I understand dolling out money for tools. I have spent a bunch this time around for this project.  It sounds like you’ve got it broken in perfectly.

When you adjust the valves, would you mind looking at the rockers, and where they sit on the valve stem and where the rocker pad sits on the cam lobes.  Are any riding off the cam lobe?  Please take a few photos and post.

Your performance seems to be very good for 22RE and your average elevation.  With a carb’d 22, it is estimated you will lose about 4 lbs. of torque for every 1,000 feet rise from sea level.  With 22RE with MomaECU and her little sensors, it’s my opinion that you won’t lose quite that much.

My rebuild…I am not happy yet with the power at 50 MPH and up. It seems sluggish after pressing the gas pedal to the floor, even in 3rd and 4th gears.  It will pull hard after 3,000 RPMs in 1st and 2nd.  But… I may be expecting too much over the engine before I rebuilt it.

Your MPG looks good for the driving you’ve done.  I’d bet you would get into the mid to upper 20’s at lower elevations and 87 octane, for average driving conditions.  Engine tweaked and peaked TUNE is critical for getting top performance out of these engines!

Thanks for posting up your experiences so far… awesome feedback.  :beerchug:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Jun 29, 2017, 08:44:24 AM
Yeah I am having trouble differentiating if that ting sound is from the head or a slight leak. I did swap over to the remflex (again) and the gasket I had in there showed a leak right by one of the egr inlets, on the header flange side. So it is possible that there is a little manufacturing flaw on the flange. Maybe someday I will get that trued up. But I only really hear the sound in first and second gear and it is easily drowned out by the radio. After that the mud tires take over  :shake: Those combined with no carpet inside (just bedliner) and a there ends up being lot of noise coming into my cab. I need a better radio!

There does seem to be slightly less noise with the remflex although I could be imagining things. And I do feel like I have heard that sound out of other headers DT included so hopefully that is all.

I was honestly shocked at the mileage I got, especially considering 35's. No doubt part of it is sticking to 65-70 mph. This truck kind of forces me to stay there though. It will drive even smoother at higher speeds than that, but I don't trust it's ability to do an evasive maneuver when I'm doing 80+. And the lady starts to get nervous, haha.

Sounds like you should get behind the wheel of another truck with a 22re if you can! That always grounds me. Other non-22re vehicles tend to have more pep than my truck, and often I'll get back into my truck and just be like "ugh this is slow" haha.

I will certainly snap some picks of my rockers once I open her up. I may be able to get to that next week although I have a busy few weeks coming up here.

My performance does seem to be better than most of the 22re's I have had in the past. I have a couple benchmark hills around here and it seems to do the best so far. I can maintain fifth on the entire Foco to Denver interstate run which has some decent hills that previously required 4th.

Of course it is difficult to compare to previous trucks since I have never had a new rebuild with this exact setup. My last 4runner 22re had about 30k miles since rebuild, with 252, DT and open exhaust but no oversized valves. This truck does marginally better than that one, although that truck was on 33s and 4.10. The 4runner before that one was on 33s and 4.88, unknown miles on motor but good compression, TG header and open exhaust. This truck destroys that one on the climbs :)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jun 29, 2017, 06:47:46 PM
....I need a better radio!

Negatory!  You "need" to find the leak, if there is one, and fix it.... exhaust leaks are bad news, and it will bug the crap out of you.  Both of my DT headers had to be machined or filed to true up the flange.  I think the smaller amount of metal on header flanges get way hotter than the stock manifold... this makes for paying attention to the header nuts and proper gasket seal... that's just my experience.

Drive another truck.... yeah in the past when I've driven another Toy truck, I realized that my 85 22R had 4 hairy gonads compared to the ones I drove!  I tuned the poop out of it.... best vehicle I ever owned.

You installed a CC252 cam?  Why did you choose that one?

I hope to get back to finishing my project soon.  I have to pull the tranny and fix the input shaft leaking seal, I hope its that?  Then I have get the AC recharged.  Then I can adjust the valve lash again and put some miles on it.

I'm anxious to determine if this 261C cam is the RIGHT cam for this rebuild.

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Jul 02, 2017, 06:02:01 PM
I didn't install the 252, the truck had it when I bought it. Judging by your spreadsheet though I would have seriously considered it in my build. I went with the 261 mainly for price, but with all the money this ended up costing an extra 100 would not phase me at all, haha.

Having been on the interstate a few times in the last couple days though I must say I am pleased with the 261 at those speeds. No regrets there. I can get up to 4K rpm in fifth no problem and that's nearly 90 mph with my gearing.

Off road I have the duals so I don't really care about low end torque, there is plenty.

A little more pep around town would be cool, but hardly worth tearing into the head. This truck is mainly for recreation, which is highway miles and off roading. I have a car that gets great mileage for everything else.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 03, 2017, 03:56:25 AM
I didn't install the 252, the truck had it when I bought it. Judging by your spreadsheet though I would have seriously considered it in my build. I went with the 261 mainly for price, but with all the money this ended up costing an extra 100 would not phase me at all, haha.



10-4 on the "all the money this ended up costing an extra 100 would not phase me at all, haha. "

Yeah... I WAY underestimated costs, and did not anticipate some fixes and replacements.

I bought the head with the cam from engbldr mainly for two reasons - #1 convenience of having the cam installed as a package, and #2 I have been curious about the 261C cam.  At that time, total budget for my rebuild was also tight.  If I could go back 12 months, I would purchase the Stage 2 head and cam from 22RE Performance.

So... I decided at the last minute to order it from engbldr, and NOT go with the CC252S.....  at this point I regret that decision, but hopefully time will tell and I will be OK with the 261C.  I still have a gut feeling concern about the amount of overlap and ECU being able to compensate for it.

Again, it seems like the posts I've read about the 261C has widely varied, so I have to see what MY experience is.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Jul 03, 2017, 11:11:34 AM
I am looking forward to your impressions when your motor is sorted out!

I have to wonder how some people can be completely happy with this cam (me) while others think it is actually causing the motor to run incorrectly. Either there are some serious quality control issues or the motor has other problems that the cam is getting the blame for.

For what it's worth I do think engnbldr gets a bad rap just because it is on the cheaper end of things. For myself I have bought a few timing kits and various other timing parts and front-end kit stuff (water pump, oil pump, etc) and always been completely happy. Never had a failure. Now, I do stay away from their gaskets and seals. I don't think they are necessarily bad, but I go Toyota with that stuff. My local dealer has pretty great prices and that is worth it for a few extra bucks.

22re Performance? Hard for me to think they are worth the money, at least for the full rebuilds. Maybe their head with cam for $950 is worth it. Idk. I have close to the equivalent of their Stage 2 motor for just over half the price. There is no way that motor is twice the motor mine is. I had mine built with quality parts from the best machine shop in Northern Colorado by a guy who knows his way around the 22re. His bill for that was $1k. 

My rebuild got expensive because i replaced a TON of things that got pulled as part of the R&R. If I was looking at 3k for JUST the motor, I would have put some sort of TBI 4.3 chevy in there instead, haha. To each his own though.

Sure you can go down the rabbit hole and put super high end everything in to a 22re but WHY? In the end it is still a noisy tractor motor.  /rant
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 04, 2017, 04:39:02 AM
I am looking forward to your impressions when your motor is sorted out!


Hey andykrow,

I agree that engbldr has gotten some bad rap and good rap too. Ted and Tod know their stuff, no doubt, and for many years have been an excellent source of information and aftermarket parts for the early Toy community.  Their pricing is very reasonable and makes it nice to buy from a reputable source, especially for many of us that just want to keep our Toys alive without melting a credit card or toasting our checking accounts.

I do have some concerns about the quality.  For the timing chain kit, I had to modify the driver’s side guide to get the t-cover to fit… I was not happy about that and it was frustrating to fix.  As I mentioned, my 261C cam may have an issue with the location of several lobes?  If true, then I suspect poor quality control during the casting.

22RE Performance’s prices are steep, and I could not afford their short block or long block for this project.  However, there stuff  appears to be top notch quality, and like engbldr Jim and Jerry are almost always available for questions.

And yes…. at this point in my rebuild project, resurrecting my truck out of storage after 4 years, for what I have invested in money and time (north of $5K), I would have considered a swap.  I agree that there are lots of posts of guys dumping lots money into a 22 and they are still NOT completely satisfied.

I will get my engine running right and report my impressions and experience.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 19, 2017, 10:57:31 PM
My fuel pump damper (on front of fuel rail) is leaking and I found this in researching it........

https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/012004_08.pdf


The third paragraph on page 2 (article is pages 8-9, so it's also page 9) sounds vaguely familiar  (if this is the correct thread)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 20, 2017, 01:24:30 AM
My fuel pump damper (on front of fuel rail) is leaking and I found this in researching it........

https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/012004_08.pdf


The third paragraph on page 2 (article is pages 8-9, so it's also page 9) sounds vaguely familiar  (if this is the correct thread)

Hey emsvitil,

THAT is a golden nugget!  Thanks for sharing.

Yes, I was having, and perhaps still, a mixture issue - at least based upon my butt dyno and the color of spark plugs.  I sprung for the fuel pressure gauge, and based on the tests, I believe the fuel pressure regulator is OK.  However, I did not suspect the fuel damper as a possible malfunction that would affect the mixture.

It's obvious that Toyota is very proud of these parts, fuel pressure regulator, fuel damper, sensors, etc.  Replacing them without completely diagnosing the failure can get expensive quickly, as many of us have experienced.

If I could borrow Rod Taylor's "time machine" or Doc's flux capacitor equipped De Lorean, and going back in time, I would NOT rebuild a 22RE.  I just don't like having to dealing with the potential parts, testing and failure that can affect MommaECU's happiness.  I would give my left testicle to have my old 1985 22R back.

On the damper.. shortly after buying this 1986, the damper was leaking.  I discovered that someone had removed it or replaced it and did not re-install both copper sealing washers.  I replaced this part around 2007 because it rusty. corroded, and leaking fuel.  Could it be bad again.. yes.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 20, 2017, 01:41:28 AM
In 89,   Toyota got rid of the damper on 22REs.

It seems it's possible to replace the damper with a banjo bolt.    Search '22RE damper delete'


I figured that mine lasted 31 years, so I just ordered one online from pepboys, will pickup this evening.      There's currently a 20% discount coupon if you order online and pickup at store (probably 20% if you order online and have it shipped too).   


BTW,   just had to remove the intake tube to get to the damper with a wrench and push the wire for #1 injector out of the way.    The strange thing was that the injector rotated when I move the wire.     I would think the injector would be stuck in place after 31 years and 174k miles........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 20, 2017, 02:31:41 AM
In 89,   Toyota got rid of the damper on 22REs.

It seems it's possible to replace the damper with a banjo bolt.    Search '22RE damper delete'


I figured that mine lasted 31 years, so I just ordered one online from pepboys, will pickup this evening.      There's currently a 20% discount coupon if you order online and pickup at store (probably 20% if you order online and have it shipped too).   


BTW,   just had to remove the intake tube to get to the damper with a wrench and push the wire for #1 injector out of the way.    The strange thing was that the injector rotated when I move the wire.     I would think the injector would be stuck in place after 31 years and 174k miles........

Hmmm... I don't remember having to remove the intake tube?... it's only been about 10 years.  The injectors will rotate, the o'ring shrinks.  But yeah, I would think it would be stuck.

I'm not a big fan of "delete" stuff, and thinking I'm out smarting those Toyota engineers.  So, will removing it and installing a banjo bolt diagnose a bad fuel damper?

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 20, 2017, 02:37:26 AM
Intake tube = tube from throttle body to air cleaner
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 20, 2017, 02:41:22 AM
Yes, I think a banjo bolt would troubleshoot the fuel damper.

It's M14x1.5


I didn't like the idea of the banjo bolt either, but for a quick test it should be fine.      Banjo bolts are much cheaper.........


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 20, 2017, 02:44:41 AM
Intake tube = tube from throttle body to air cleaner

OK, yes, I had to remove that.  :smack:

Gnarls. :gap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Jul 20, 2017, 02:52:53 AM
Oh, the length of the banjo bolt (not including head) would be 30mm   (Since I have the old damper sitting on top the washing machine)
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Jul 20, 2017, 11:32:28 AM
Oh, the length of the banjo bolt (not including head) would be 30mm   (Since I have the old damper sitting on top the washing machine)

Thank you.  Technical input is always appreciated. :thumbs:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 15, 2017, 01:59:12 PM
UPDATE:  10-15-2017  :willynilly:

Admiittedly, I’ve been procrastinating at finishing this rebuild.  I still have the rear diff that is leaking at the pinion flange, the power steering box is leaking, and I need to do the exhaust system – a DT header and 2” exhaust with a new muffler.  And, the AC needs to be recharged after sitting in my garage for almost 4 years.  By the time I’m done, I believe I will have over $6,000 in this complete rebuild.  :yikes:

I pulled the tranny and t-case out this morning.  Took me 3 hours 6 minutes (I’m probably slower than the average) from the time I plugged in the air compressor to the time I got a shower, and sitting back down on the couch with a glass of Black Cherry Kool-Aid.  :gap:

I will remove the bell housing and pull the bad seal - and hopefully have a new input shaft seal by Tuesday, and replace it on Wednesday, and get it back installed.  :thumbs:

Gnarls.  :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 15, 2017, 04:26:51 PM
Oh NO.........

You drank the Kool-Aid.


 :yikes:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 15, 2017, 05:52:35 PM
Oh NO.........

You drank the Kool-Aid.


 :yikes:



Yeah... I'm KA drinker now.  I gave up Jim Beam & Sprite and Bacardi & Cherry Coke 5 years and 3 months ago... saving $85 a month!!  I make a gallon of Kool-Aid for 97 cents.  I use 1/2 cup of Stevia and 1/2 cup of Sugar and 2 packs of Kool-Aid.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Oct 16, 2017, 07:52:27 AM
Progress!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Oct 18, 2017, 02:09:53 PM
Yay, back on the build!

Any thoughts on the 261 cam and what your plans are on that end.

I'm at 5k-ish miles on the rebuild and I am loving my setup. I have also driven my buddies rig a few times on big road trips (which is a recent rebuild with 35k miles, DT/open exhaust and a 252 cam) and my truck is just destroying it on all fronts. Better pickup and better mpgs, and quieter valve train. Granted, it is a bit apples to oranges since he is running 33's and 410's, and I am 35s / 529s. I still have to do my first valve adjustment after the rebuild so I am hoping to gain a littler performance there.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 18, 2017, 07:06:24 PM
Yay, back on the build!

Any thoughts on the 261 cam and what your plans are on that end.

I'm at 5k-ish miles on the rebuild and I am loving my setup. I have also driven my buddies rig a few times on big road trips (which is a recent rebuild with 35k miles, DT/open exhaust and a 252 cam) and my truck is just destroying it on all fronts. Better pickup and better mpgs, and quieter valve train. Granted, it is a bit apples to oranges since he is running 33's and 410's, and I am 35s / 529s. I still have to do my first valve adjustment after the rebuild so I am hoping to gain a littler performance there.

Hey…

Yes, I’m back at it.

Very happy to read that your engine is catz-a$$!!  :beerchug:

I’m concerned that you have NOT adjusted the valve lash before 5,000 miles!!!!!????  :yikes:

I’m not feeling the “power” with this rebuild that I thought I’d feel.  I still have some tuning to do, but it’s feeling sluggish.  Only 200 miles on the break in, but I think it should be more peppy than it feels.  :smack:

I talked to my good friend engine builder and off-road racer today. When I get the tranny back in and the rear diff seal fixed I’m going to let him listen to it and drive it.  :greengrin:

I’ll post up a report.  :D

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 18, 2017, 07:51:44 PM
what cam did you end up with?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 19, 2017, 04:06:12 AM
what cam did you end up with?


Hey 79coyotefrg,

I have not changed the cam that came in the RV head from engbldr - the 261C.

I have a what sounds like a deep tick or light knock that I'm concerned about.  Using my stethoscope and probe, I can hear a deep tick on the rocker cover and top of head when probing.  I don't think that the rockers are making the noise.  The sound is like 1 or 2 cylinder cycles - not like even sounding rocker tick. I think its sounds deeper, maybe a valve.  I don't think the noise is normal.  I don't know where it's coming from.  I need to isolate the noise.  When I get the leaks (input shaft, rear diff, and steering box) fixed and the AC recharged, I plan to drive to Lake Havasu and visit the boys at LCE.

My thought was to simply change the camshaft to see if has anything to do with the noise, because it should be an easy swap without moving the head, right?

At this point, and at 200+ miles on the break-in, I'm very disappointed and frustrated.

If I could turn back time, I would swap in an GM LS 5.3L engine, for less than the $5000+ I now have invested in the 22RE!

Gnarls.


Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Oct 19, 2017, 08:35:00 AM
When it's up and running again I can recommend a trick that might just make your noise go away.
Old 22re trick that I have seen work many times.  :usa:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Oct 19, 2017, 09:26:04 AM
I’m concerned that you have NOT adjusted the valve lash

Yeah I should really get on that. They never actually tighten over time though, do they? That would be the only thing I am worried about.

Just got done with a brake upgrade (Highly recommended on the SFA trucks!) so I'm not feeling too motivated to do more truck work. But it's easy enough. I'll get on it this weekend.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Oct 19, 2017, 03:11:49 PM
When it's up and running again I can recommend a trick that might just make your noise go away.
Old 22re trick that I have seen work many times.  :usa:

Turn the key counterclockwise?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 19, 2017, 07:10:13 PM
Hey 79coyotefrg,

I have not changed the cam that came in the RV head from engbldr - the 261C.

I have a what sounds like a deep tick or light knock that I'm concerned about.  Using my stethoscope and probe, I can hear a deep tick on the rocker cover and top of head when probing.  I don't think that the rockers are making the noise.  The sound is like 1 or 2 cylinder cycles - not like even sounding rocker tick. I think its sounds deeper, maybe a valve.  I don't think the noise is normal.  I don't know where it's coming from.  I need to isolate the noise.
pull the valve cover now if you arent busy otherwise and see if any of the rockers feel loose.   it is VERY common for them to loosen up after having run in even 200 miles.


 
Quote
When I get the leaks (input shaft, rear diff, and steering box) fixed and the AC recharged, I plan to drive to Lake Havasu and visit the boys at LCE.

My thought was to simply change the camshaft to see if has anything to do with the noise, because it should be an easy swap without moving the head, right?

At this point, and at 200+ miles on the break-in, I'm very disappointed and frustrated.
you will be okay if you used a MLS head gasket but a graphite gasket may be compromised.  I HIGHLY recommend the LCE cams  at the very least the .440 cam but if you want real power get the .450 or .460 cam
I have to replace my cam I just can't justify using the one i have with the damage it has :rivers:


Quote
If I could turn back time, I would swap in an GM LS 5.3L engine, for less than the $5000+ I now have invested in the 22RE!

Gnarls.



you dont want to do that.  all that extra weight and wiring.  wires are EEVIIILLLL

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 19, 2017, 07:11:42 PM
Yeah I should really get on that. They never actually tighten over time though, do they? That would be the only thing I am worried about.

Just got done with a brake upgrade (Highly recommended on the SFA trucks!) so I'm not feeling too motivated to do more truck work. But it's easy enough. I'll get on it this weekend.
no they dont tighten but they DO loosen up over even the first 500 miles

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 19, 2017, 07:19:03 PM
Turn the key counterclockwise?

That trick didn't work!!  :moon:

I tried it about 12 times just to make sure it absolutely would NOT work.  :gap:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 19, 2017, 07:30:36 PM
no they dont tighten but they DO loosen up over even the first 500 miles



So theoretically with a new head, valves and seats, if the valve face squishes down into the valve seat, wouldn't that make the valve lash tighter?  :dunno:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Oct 19, 2017, 07:38:45 PM
1. The valve stem and rocker arm tip getting pounded along with some rubbing will make the lash looser.

2. The rocker arm and cam lobe rubbing together will make the lash looser.


I think 1&2 above would have more effect than the valve face and valve seat make things tighter
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Oct 19, 2017, 07:50:48 PM
That trick didn't work!!  :moon:

I tried it about 12 times just to make sure it absolutely would NOT work.  :gap:

Gnarls.  :inthedark:

Then I submit that it’s not an engine noise.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 19, 2017, 08:23:31 PM
they currently dont have my cam but this "new" version would probably work well without clearancing the pistons
http://www.lceperformance.com/Stage-2-Camshaft-20R-22R-RE-RET-p/1022036.htm
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 20, 2017, 04:36:34 AM
they currently dont have my cam but this "new" version would probably work well without clearancing the pistons
http://www.lceperformance.com/Stage-2-Camshaft-20R-22R-RE-RET-p/1022036.htm

Hmmmm... well... I don't think that cam will work in a stock 22RE.  At 9.6 degrees of overlap, Mama ECU will throw a fit.

I can see it working in modified 22R.  For the $900+ LCE wants to properly install it... I'd consider another option for power gain.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 20, 2017, 04:49:30 AM
Yay, back on the build!

Any thoughts on the 261 cam and what your plans are on that end.

I'm at 5k-ish miles on the rebuild and I am loving my setup. I have also driven my buddies rig a few times on big road trips (which is a recent rebuild with 35k miles, DT/open exhaust and a 252 cam) and my truck is just destroying it on all fronts. Better pickup and better mpgs, and quieter valve train. Granted, it is a bit apples to oranges since he is running 33's and 410's, and I am 35s / 529s. I still have to do my first valve adjustment after the rebuild so I am hoping to gain a littler performance there.

I don't think your comparison is fair... definitely apples-oranges.  Your gear ratio puts the RPMs way closer to the happy torque numbers the 261C touts.

4.10's and 33's is going to be noticeably sluggish compared to 5.29's and 35's!

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Oct 24, 2017, 01:22:53 AM
Hmmmm... well... I don't think that cam will work in a stock 22RE.  At 9.6 degrees of overlap, Mama ECU will throw a fit.

I can see it working in modified 22R.  For the $900+ LCE wants to properly install it... I'd consider another option for power gain.

Gnarls.

I totally forgot you had efi.
http://www.lceperformance.com/EFI-Pro-Camshaft-22RE-RET-p/1022021.htm
$900  what you smokin??
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 24, 2017, 03:23:17 AM
I totally forgot you had efi.
http://www.lceperformance.com/EFI-Pro-Camshaft-22RE-RET-p/1022021.htm
$900  what you smokin??

Hey 79coyotefrg,

I quit smok'n about 50 years ago.  But, at my age any mistake I make I have any number of excuses!

I got my quick calculations from LCE's site:

Stage 2 Cam - $199.95
Pro Camshaft Kit - $278.00 (highly recommended by LCE)
Rocker Arms - 34.95 x 8 = 279.60 (without the rack - LCE will not warranty the cam without these)
Sales Tax 7.85% =   $59.47                                                                                                                               
Shipping $75.00 (guessimate)
Estimated Total:  $ 892.00 

I rounded it up to $900 in my head.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 24, 2017, 07:09:05 PM
UPDATE:  October 24, 2017

W-56 1986 transmission input shaft housing.

I thought I’d share this information for those that may be interested.

I realize that the subject of sealants and gasket RTVs appears to be a personal choice based on individual experience.

In the absence of my own personal experience, I tend to go with the “technical experts” and the people who use the products in their businesses.

Permatex Ultra Grey is used by Marlin...

https://www.marlincrawler.com/hardware-tools/chemicals/silicone-ultra-gray

For this application, Permatex Ultra Grey is recommended by the Technical Service Manager/Associate Innovations Manager at Permatex for the gasket and housing plate.  He recommended Permatex Thread Sealant with PTFE for the bolt threads because the bolts/threads are in contact with the gear lube inside the case.

He also said to allow 24 hours before filling the transmission with gear oil to allow the sealants to cure properly.

My research also showed that the specification for Toyota part numbers for a number of sealants that Toyota recommends is covered in the Permatex Ultra Grey specification.

I believe that Toyota’s Orange FIPG sealant RTV is an excellent and logical choice.  However, the availability is limited and about 90% more expensive than the Permatex alternative.

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-82194-High-Torque-Silicone-Gasket/dp/B000HBGI8K/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1508894948&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=Permatex+Ultra+Greay

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80631-Thread-Sealant-PTFE/dp/B000BKEBT0

I highly recommend that any time you drop the transmission that you replace the input shaft seal and gasket if it has not been recently replaced.  For the cost of the seal and gasket $13.40, the Ultra Grey - $7.99, the Thread Sealant w/PTFE - $5.29 – for me it’s just not worth having to drop the tranny again to fix the leak from the seal, gasket, or bolts.  The leaking gear oil onto the bottom of the bell housing got blown around and onto the pressure plate, clutch disc, and flywheel.  I am replacing the clutch disc.

Gnarls.



Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Oct 29, 2017, 01:11:37 PM
Welp, I did my valve lash today, and Gnarly, you get a gold star!  :clap:

As a reminder this is a new engnbldr Street RV head with a new 261C cam. Reused the rockers as they were in perfect shape and just got polished up a bit.

All exhaust valves and two of the intake valves were tight by 001. It should be no surprise that the 1 and 4 intakes were at spec, considering they will actually be a bit loose if the base circle technique is not used (which i doubt it was.)

Now, for the really surprising part, after I got everything to spec (used base circle on 1 and 4 intake) and buttoned her back up, my idle RPM was sitting at 1350. That's a good 500 higher than it was set before. Taking her for a test drive I am feeling noticeably more low end power, and seemingly more midrange judging from a couple hills I pulled. She kinda wants to jump off the line now. Above 3000 seems to be about the same (which is to say, awesome  :shades: ) Will need to road test a bit more to confirm.

Now, another surprise, I can get the idle down to 750 - where it should be - without the rough shaking that was happening before. I felt before that I was getting a miss down that low so I set the idle to 850 or 900 to smooth it out. That is no longer necessary. The idle sounds a lot smoother too, whereas before there was sort of a "chug" happening, which, though it sounded cool, is not normal for a 22re in my experience.

So, my feeling here is 001 off on the lash is probably not enough to burn a valve and isn't dangerous (Although I guess I really have nothing to back that up...). Clearly however, there are massive performance differences to be had with this cam. I wonder how much of the hate for this cam could be resolved with a very precise lash setting.

Other note, the lobes definitely do not line up perfectly with the rocker pads. All of the pads had complete contact - none were going past the edge of the lobes - but several were pretty close to the edge. I do not have a stocker to look at right now so I am not sure if they are supposed to be perfectly centered? In any case I can't see it being a problem. My cam lobes seem to be in perfect shape, no scoring or discoloration or anything. I guess I got the break-in correct.

My machinist who built the motor never said anything about the lobes, and he builds a lot of 22res, so I wonder if they are just never really centered and it isn't a problem.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 29, 2017, 06:38:02 PM
Welp, I did my valve lash today, and Gnarly, you get a gold star!  :clap:

As a reminder this is a new engnbldr Street RV head with a new 261C cam. Reused the rockers as they were in perfect shape and just got polished up a bit.

All exhaust valves and two of the intake valves were tight by 001. It should be no surprise that the 1 and 4 intakes were at spec, considering they will actually be a bit loose if the base circle technique is not used (which i doubt it was.)

Now, for the really surprising part, after I got everything to spec (used base circle on 1 and 4 intake) and buttoned her back up, my idle RPM was sitting at 1350. That's a good 500 higher than it was set before. Taking her for a test drive I am feeling noticeably more low end power, and seemingly more midrange judging from a couple hills I pulled. She kinda wants to jump off the line now. Above 3000 seems to be about the same (which is to say, awesome  :shades: ) Will need to road test a bit more to confirm.

Now, another surprise, I can get the idle down to 750 - where it should be - without the rough shaking that was happening before. I felt before that I was getting a miss down that low so I set the idle to 850 or 900 to smooth it out. That is no longer necessary. The idle sounds a lot smoother too, whereas before there was sort of a "chug" happening, which, though it sounded cool, is not normal for a 22re in my experience.

So, my feeling here is 001 off on the lash is probably not enough to burn a valve and isn't dangerous (Although I guess I really have nothing to back that up...). Clearly however, there are massive performance differences to be had with this cam. I wonder how much of the hate for this cam could be resolved with a very precise lash setting.

Other note, the lobes definitely do not line up perfectly with the rocker pads. All of the pads had complete contact - none were going past the edge of the lobes - but several were pretty close to the edge. I do not have a stocker to look at right now so I am not sure if they are supposed to be perfectly centered? In any case I can't see it being a problem. My cam lobes seem to be in perfect shape, no scoring or discoloration or anything. I guess I got the break-in correct.

My machinist who built the motor never said anything about the lobes, and he builds a lot of 22res, so I wonder if they are just never really centered and it isn't a problem.

Hey andykrow,

Welll.. I’m not sure I deserve a GOLD star… Thank you.

Ohhh... Wait…. Didn’t a couple of experts here say the valve lash doesn’t go “tight”????  :_oops:

I spent many hours testing and experimenting with the valve lash on my 1985 22R, so all I have to go on is just MY limited experience.

And yes, valve lash adjustment CAN affect performance. 

Here's a quick FAQ:   http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threads/comp-cams-quick-tech-video-how-to-set-valve-lash.4986/

I think H8PVMNT will back me up on this… the carb’d engines respond to very small changes that you can feel in your butt dyno.  The 22RE, with mamaCPU and her over-priced sensors tend to “control” the changes, and programmed to modulate the best gas mileage and emissions control, to name few things she does.  I'm not saying the 22RE is bad, I’m saying from my experience I could feel the changes I made with my 22R WAY more than I can feel the changes with both of my 22REs.

So what lash did you end up with?

Have you been able to calculate any accurate gas mileage?

On idle RPM, my 22RE, thus far likes the idle about 900, and I’m OK with that.  And I believe that is because of the overlap in the 261C cam.

I'm very glad you are getting what you are out of that engine and combo…. Great job!!  I'm envious at this point.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 29, 2017, 08:06:32 PM
UPDATE:  10-29-17 PM

I installed the new seal and gasket on the throw-out bearing/input shaft housing.  I really like the Thread Sealant.  I wish I had used it on the timing cover bolts. It’s a little more fluid than the Ultra Grey.

I rubbed a little tiny bit of wheel bearing grease on the outer edge of the seal, and pressed it gently into the housing with a 32mm socket, tapped it gently with a rubber hammer to seat it..  I used Ultra Grey on the gasket and torqued the 7 bolts down.  I went over the torque spec because the spec did not seem tight enough. Same for bell housing bolts to transmission – I went passed the FSM torque spec of  27 ft. bls.

I hope to have this tranny back in on Wednesday.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Oct 29, 2017, 08:40:56 PM
Didn’t a couple of experts here say the valve lash doesn’t go “tight”????  :_oops:

Haha that is precisely why YOU get the gold star!

I set it to engnbldr’s spec, 007 in and 009 out. I would say I was around 006/008 before I adjusted it.

I’ve done valve lash more times than I can count on stock motors. But those were nearly always on the loose side if I remember correctly. I never really noticed any performance gains, just a quiter valvetrain.

The last time I checked a highway tank for mpgs I pulled 23.5. It’s been a while though. With winter coming it may be a while before another long road trip happens so it might not be until spring when I can check out a full highway tank for mpg. I can say my in-town mileage is not great. Probably more like 15 or 16. I will check that on the next tank. I do enjoying getting in it with this motor, so I’m not really trying to be efficient with the gas, haha. And with 35s, it is never going to be great around town.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Oct 29, 2017, 09:44:02 PM
What’s the tolerance for valve lash?  0.001 is pretty tight and that appears to be what you think the difference was.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 30, 2017, 04:56:44 AM
What’s the tolerance for valve lash?  0.001 is pretty tight and that appears to be what you think the difference was.

That is a good question.

It appears from what I know valve lash settings do NOT show a plus or minus number.  The lash specs are in one thousandths of an inch, and are VERY specific to the camshaft profile.  Engine Analyzer only allows a 3 digit number for valve lash setting/adjustment.

So, can .001” make a difference in valve events… obviously it does.  On my 22s, .001” made a difference to my ears when tuning for smooth, balanced, and quieter rocker noise.  On my 22R, the valve lash setting changes on my stock Toy cam were slight, but noticeable.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless. :gap:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: H8PVMNT on Oct 30, 2017, 07:22:52 AM
Well it makes sense.  It all cam timing.  Tighter would be sooner in and later out, not to mention more valve lift.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Oct 30, 2017, 08:07:42 AM
When we are only talking about 7 thousandths to begin with, being off 001 in either direction is a significant amount. Perhaps I will email engnbldr and get their thoughts on this.

The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps my pcv valve was stuck open, and jostling around the valve cover freed it up? Seems unlikely though. I would think just driving rough off road stuff would shake that thing around more than pulling the valve cover. That is really the only thing that could have changed in between setting the lash.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Oct 30, 2017, 08:42:32 AM
Just got into work, and I have to say the drivability difference is shocking. Stop signs I can take off in second now with smooth acceleration (after the slowest of roll-throughs  ;) ) and in general there is just way more of that low-end grunt that I am supposed to be feeling. Idle is great now, 750 rpm and smooth as butter. The shifter used to just shake like crazy at idle and now it's rock solid. Definitely seeming like there was a miss down there.

So, I would have to say, to anyone with a 261C that they aren't liking - double check that valve lash and set it at 007/009.

I suppose if I was really motivated I could go back in and set all the valves tight and see if the bad behavior comes back, but, meh, i've got other things to do.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Oct 30, 2017, 10:34:12 AM
Just got into work, and I have to say the drivability difference is shocking. Stop signs I can take off in second now with smooth acceleration (after the slowest of roll-throughs  ;) ) and in general there is just way more of that low-end grunt that I am supposed to be feeling. Idle is great now, 750 rpm and smooth as butter. The shifter used to just shake like crazy at idle and now it's rock solid. Definitely seeming like there was a miss down there.

So, I would have to say, to anyone with a 261C that they aren't liking - double check that valve lash and set it at 007/009.

I suppose if I was really motivated I could go back in and set all the valves tight and see if the bad behavior comes back, but, meh, i've got other things to do.

I would be VERY interested in what Ted or Tod has to say about the valve lash!

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Oct 30, 2017, 11:04:18 AM
Email sent. I will report back.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Oct 30, 2017, 12:19:28 PM
I told Tod I was about 001 tight on everything, and the experience I had after getting it correct, and he replied:

"yes if the lash is set too tight it can cause the valves to hang open slightly causing slight compression drop
when you loosened them up it allowed the valve to close properly and should have made the engine run smoother which is also why the rpm jumped up slightly as well
sounds like you got it right now and should be fine from here"

Again, I am surprised that just 001 could cause this, mainly because I feel that it is often implied online that within 001 is "close enough" on these motors. I would love for anyone suspecting the 261C to be a problem to go in there and be double sure they are set to 007/009, with the motor hot.

Interesting as well that my lash went to the tight side. Generally it is assumed online that these motors get looser over time, and looser when they are hot compared to cold. Hence to typical "wisdom" to set them 001 tighter if you are setting while the motor is cold.

SIDE NOTE: I love how fast the engnbldr guys respond to emails. It always within an hour or two.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Oct 30, 2017, 12:23:50 PM
So theoretically with a new head, valves and seats, if the valve face squishes down into the valve seat, wouldn't that make the valve lash tighter?  :dunno:

Gnarls.
Correct!
Also turning the key backwards was not the trick.
Is it running again?
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: ExCabSwap on Nov 03, 2017, 12:11:37 AM
SIDE NOTE: I love how fast the engnbldr guys respond to emails. It always within an hour or two.

It's really cool how service oriented he is in person! I live in Vancouver, so going over to his shop in Portland is a really nice! If anyone has the chance to swing by his machine shop, I'd highly suggest taking advantage of the opportunity! He's a really great guy who knows and loves these engines!
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Nov 03, 2017, 11:54:43 AM
Correct!
Also turning the key backwards was not the trick.
Is it running again?

If the engine is running and making noise, then turning the key counterclockwise would most certainly resolve the noise.  Removing the starter will eliminate future occurrences.

:grin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 04, 2017, 03:55:34 AM
sorry but you are missing the mark a bit.   

I’m not sure what “mark” is missed?

The optimum valve lash is usually determined by the cam profile and design.  Valve lash can be adjusted to fine tune for desired performance similar to using an adjustable cam gear for tuning cam timing – retard or advance.

The 261C cam has a slightly tighter spec 7/9 than the stock Toy cam 8/12.  And, the 261C cam has the tightest lash spec I’ve seen.  Engbldr’s head and stainless steel over-sized valves may have a tighter tolerance with the 261C cam because stainless steel has a greater thermal expansion property than the carbon steel valves, so the valve lash setting is more critical.

Setting the valve lash on a stock Toyota 22 cam .001” either side of the cam spec should not create any issues on a healthy engine.  On my 22R, when I adjusted my lash loose, the rocker tick increased and I felt a slight increase in torque from off-idle to about 3500 RPMS.  When I tightened the lash, the engine seemed to rev to 5,000 RPM easier and pulled harder after 3500 RPMs. I preferred the lash slightly tight because I liked the quieter rockers and higher end RPMs.  I have not experimented with this cam enough to get a good feel for optimum valve lash setting on my recent 22RE engine rebuild.

So based upon what andykrow has experienced and what Tod said regarding his email questions, there is obviously an optimum lash setting for his combination and engine rebuild.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 04, 2017, 04:22:15 AM
Correct!
Also turning the key backwards was not the trick.
Is it running again?

Hey bgen...

I have a new clutch disc, my seal and gasket is installed on the input shaft housing, so tomorrow I hope to get my tranny back in and start driving my truck again to get more miles on this rebuild.  Right now it has a little over 200 miles.

So.... if you want to share your secret "trick".... I'm all ears.. Or you can PM me.

Any help or suggestions regarding the noise I'm hearing that I'm concerned about, and have not figured out what it is, will be appreciated.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Nov 06, 2017, 01:31:32 PM

Setting them at .007 and .009 is okay but no tighter than that.    Being too loose is just as bad as being too tight.


Huh? I think you're confused about what I was talking about. The 261C cam has a spec of 007 intake and 009 exhaust. The stock cam has a spec of 008/012, not 008/010

The 001 I was referring to was not what the the valve lash was set to, it's how far OFF from the correct setting I was. I checked my lash before I set it, and it was roughly 006/008, that is what I was referring to.

Hence, my surprise that being tighter than spec by only 001 caused such a difference in performance.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Nov 09, 2017, 08:18:45 PM
my apologies guys I misread your post, I thought you had set them at .001    :smack:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Nov 09, 2017, 08:57:01 PM
Hey 79coyotefrg,

I quit smok'n about 50 years ago.  But, at my age any mistake I make I have any number of excuses!

I got my quick calculations from LCE's site:

Stage 2 Cam - $199.95
Pro Camshaft Kit - $278.00 (highly recommended by LCE)  only recommended for cams over .450 lift that rev over 6000rpm on a regular basis
Rocker Arms - 34.95 x 8 = 279.60 (without the rack - LCE will not warranty the cam without these)
Sales Tax 7.85% =   $59.47                                                                                                                               
Shipping $75.00 (guessimate)
Estimated Total:  $ 892.00 

I rounded it up to $900 in my head.

Gnarls.
fixed it
WARNING: LCE highly recommends using our Pro Camshaft Kit Part# 1020000 in order to allow proper spring retainer to guide clearance for any cam that has over .450" lift or in any application that requires a sustained RPM of 6,000 or higher. LCE also recommends replacing rocker arms with a new set; Part# 1023015 or a complete rocker assembly Part# 1023018 to avoid any damage to your new camshaft.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Nov 11, 2017, 02:28:02 PM
my apologies guys I misread your post, I thought you had set them at .001    :smack:

Haha no worries.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: andykrow on Nov 11, 2017, 02:40:21 PM

Have you been able to calculate any accurate gas mileage?


Just filled it up and I got 18.8 mpg on the last tank.  :thumbs: That is all in-town driving, to and from work. 35 mph tops and a fair amount of stop and go. I am pleased!

I had not yet checked mileage on a in-town tank so I don't know what it was before I set the lash, but I think there is a big improvement. I feel like I got a few extra days before needing to fill up.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 11, 2017, 03:29:44 PM
Hey andykrow,

That's not bad....  :beerchug:

My 85 22R, I could get 19 to 20.  stock except for exhaust.

Gnarls.  :gap:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 11, 2017, 03:39:00 PM
... but I think there is a big improvement. I feel like I got a few extra days before needing to fill up.

With the 22R/RE it's all about tweaking the "tune".  If you want to, you can play with ignition timing a little and fuel octane and get a butt-dyno feel.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Nov 12, 2017, 08:19:45 AM
With the 22R/RE it's all about tweaking the "tune".  If you want to, you can play with ignition timing a little and fuel octane and get a butt-dyno feel.

Gnarls.

There is some value in a butt dyno, but placebo is also a strong force.  When I had my 2000 SS Camaro it was fast. I test drove one of the supercharged Mustangs and it had some a smooth power curve that it didn’t feel as fast as my Camaro but was proven to be superior.  The Mustang held a constant rate of acceleration while my Camaro increased the rate of acceleration all the way to the fuel cutoff.  The butt dyno was wrong in this case.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 12, 2017, 09:11:46 AM
There is some value in a butt dyno, but placebo is also a strong force.  When I had my 2000 SS Camaro it was fast. I test drove one of the supercharged Mustangs and it had some a smooth power curve that it didn’t feel as fast as my Camaro but was proven to be superior.  The Mustang held a constant rate of acceleration while my Camaro increased the rate of acceleration all the way to the fuel cutoff.  The butt dyno was wrong in this case.

While I agree that impressions felt by a driver can be wrong, they can also be profoundly different and more accurate in feeling performance gains on the track that the incredibly accurate engine dyno data could not produce. Ask Ted at engnbldr about his experience with engine dyno data and then with that same engine driven in a NASCAR Sprint Car and the driver’s “butt-dyno” comments… or the results on the clock.

There is an incredible amount of accurate data collected and reported by the technology installed in a NASCAR vehicle, but if Kyle Bush, Martin Truex Jr., or Brad Keselowski tells their Crew Chief to make a change to their car based on their “butt-dyno”, what do you think will happen?

You compared your Camaro to a blown Mustang.  How was the Mustang “proven to be superior”?

My comment was simply to say that while testing and tuning, and in the absence of a chassis dyno or engine dyno to test the actual changes, most of us go by our gut feeling and physical senses.

Would you argue that andykrow’s recent experience with his valve lash setting is a placebo effect?

Or how about H8PVMNT’s ongoing and lengthy butt-dyno testing… are his experiences a placebo effect or does his experience have a degree of accuracy and real change?

Most of the changes and results I have done to my engines, dating back to my 5 years of racing go-karts, with engines that were built and dyno tested by my good friend and competitor, and one of the best McCulloch go-kart engine builders of his time,  and he had a room full of 1st Place Trophies to prove it, has been because of what I felt after making a change.

Since my 1964 283 CU Chevy Malibu, thru two 327-powered Corvettes, 8 years and 3 sand rails, while hang’n with some the best engine builders around, including a few racing legends, most of the changes I personally experienced with my own vehicles can be easily proven by a huge library of data and history by every automotive expert on the planet…. that backs up my butt-dyno.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Nov 12, 2017, 10:11:15 AM
While agree that impressions felt by a driver can be wrong, they can also be profoundly different and more accurate in feeling performance gains on the track that the incredibly accurate engine dyno data could not produce. Ask Ted at engnbldr about his experience with engine dyno data and then with that same engine driven in a NASCAR Sprint Car and the driver’s “butt-dyno” comments… or the results on the clock.

There is an incredible amount of accurate data collected and reported by the technology installed in a NASCAR vehicle, but if Kyle Bush, Martin Truex Jr., or Brad Keselowski tells their Crew Chief to make a change to their car based on their “butt-dyno”, what do you think will happen?

You compared your Camaro to a blown Mustang.  How was the Mustang “proven to be superior”?

My comment was simply to say that while testing and tuning, and in the absence of a chassis dyno or engine dyno to test the actual changes, most of us go by our gut feeling and physical senses.

Would you argue that andykrow’s recent experience with his valve lash setting is a placebo effect?

Or how about H8PVMNT’s ongoing and lengthy butt-dyno testing… are his experiences a placebo effect or does his experience have a degree of accuracy and real change.

Most of the changes and results I have done to my engines, dating back to my 5 years of racing go-karts, with engines that were built and dyno tested by my good friend and competitor, and one of the best McCulloch go-kart engine builders of his time,  and he had a room full of 1st Place Trophies to prove it, has been because of what I felt after making a change.

Since my 1964 283 CU Chevy Malibu, thru two 327-powered Corvettes, 8 years and 3 sand rails, while hang’n with some the best engine builders around, including a few racing legends, most of the changes I personally experienced with my own vehicles can be easily proven by a huge library of data and history by every automotive expert on the planet…. that backs up my butt-dyno.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.

Gnarls.


I absolutely think that the butt dyno has value and can be trusted in a lot of circumstances, it’s just not absolute. I think it lacks in straight line acceleration based on my example.

NASCAR is an apples to oranges comparison because so much of what the drivers want is personal preference. Jimmy Johnson and Juan Pablo Montoya would never perform the same in identical cars because they have different driving styles. In F1 the drivers get less input because it’s almost all computer controlled in a way that NASCAR is more driver controlled.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Nov 13, 2017, 03:47:51 AM
UPDATE:  11-13-17

The transmission, starter, and drive shafts are back in.  I still have to install the shifters and exhaust pipe to exhaust manifold, check gear oil level.

The re-install of the starter has always been a real bear for me.  It’s very difficult to get a socket, extensions, and ratchet in the space.  Removing the oil filter helped with the space issue.  I bought a new flange bolt for the top bolt which made is way easier to keep a 14mm deep socket on it.

Next on my list to complete this project will be to fix the rear diff leak, get AC recharged, fix leak at steering box.  I will then get back to adding some miles to the break-in and isolating the engine noise I'm concerned about.

I will continue to tune this engine to get it to cold start up and perform like I think it should.

I plan to install a header and 2" or 2.25" exhaust with new muffler sometime after getting a few thousand miles on it.  A new set of softer shocks are also on my list.  I will also be considering a camshaft change based upon how this engine performs after getting the tune level I want.

HOT TIP:  Since starting this rebuild, I have bought and gone through a dozen boxes of 5 mil Nitrile gloves from Harbor Freight.  Using gloves have really protected my hands from cuts and scratches, and saved hours of time from not having to decrease and scrub them.

Gnarls.  :gap:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 04, 2017, 01:21:28 PM
UPDATE 12-4-17

I hope to have the exhaust back on and the shifters in and driving my truck by the end of the week.  :crossed:

I will re-adjust the valve lash again.  And because I’ve had the rocker cover off several times I will replace the gasket and grommets.  I noticed the grommets that came with the DNJ parts from engnbldr have split out the rubber part between the two washers.

I’m not sure why?   :dunno:   I have never seen a rocker cover grommet do that.  I may have over-tightened the acorn nuts, but I was very careful about that – and bestgen cautioned me on that regarding my “noise”.

I ordered a Beck Arnley set from RockAuto, and I noticed the BA grommets are heavier than the DNJ grommets by .2 oz.

I’ll know more after I install the new Beck Arnley grommets.  Interestingly, the Beck Arnley label says they are “made in Japan”.  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :spin:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: :)bestgen4runner on Dec 04, 2017, 04:04:13 PM
UPDATE 12-4-17

I hope to have the exhaust back on and the shifters in and driving my truck by the end of the week.  :crossed:

I will re-adjust the valve lash again.  And because I’ve had the rocker cover off several times I will replace the gasket and grommets.  I noticed the grommets that came with the DNJ parts from engnbldr have split out the rubber part between the two washers.

I’m not sure why?   :dunno:   I have never seen a rocker cover grommet do that.  I may have over-tightened the acorn nuts, but I was very careful about that – and bestgen cautioned me on that regarding my “noise”.

I ordered a Beck Arnley set from RockAuto, and I noticed the BA grommets are heavier than the DNJ grommets by .2 oz.

I’ll know more after I install the new Beck Arnley grommets.  Interestingly, the Beck Arnley label says they are “made in Japan”.  :thumbs:

Gnarls. :spin:
Goodness, That first set must have been from engine builder? I've said it before and I will say it again. Don't use their gasket set. Also indicates to Me that the valve cover bolts must have been overtightened.
I have a good feeling about your engine tick. I think it will be gone, I hope.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: OVRAROK on Dec 04, 2017, 04:41:28 PM
i agree with bestgen, those valve cover bolts are inch/lbs torque, most people over tighten them, and that first pic was an excellent example of over tightened valve cover nuts, in most cases, when over tightened, rockers hit on valve cover  :twocents:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 05, 2017, 01:40:27 AM
Goodness, That first set must have been from engine builder? I've said it before and I will say it again. Don't use their gasket set. Also indicates to Me that the valve cover bolts must have been overtightened.
I have a good feeling about your engine tick. I think it will be gone, I hope.

Hi bgen,

I'm taking notes.  :D

I am often on the fence or leaning on the "skeptical" side when analyzing "things" as I get the facts.  I am man enough to admit I make mistakes, probably everyday.  I have made mistakes as I rebuilt this engine, and made notes.... I'm sharing my thoughts in this thread. 

Since 1986 I have R&R'd rocker covers on my 3 22s more times than I can count, and don't remember over-tightening the acrorn nuts, and don't remember smashing the grommets to death.... but that was then and this is now.  :confused:

*IF* I did, AND you are right about my "noise", you can be my adored little brother and I will thank you from the heart of my bottom every time I start the engine.  Noise...??  My relief will be more than you know. :smooch:

Thank you. :gap:

Gnarls. :blah:

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 05, 2017, 01:57:23 AM
i agree with bestgen, those valve cover bolts are inch/lbs torque, most people over tighten them, and that first pic was an excellent example of over tightened valve cover nuts, in most cases, when over tightened, rockers hit on valve cover  :twocents:

Hi OVRAROK,

Well... I hope you are right!!  I'd much rather be stupid and have the noise gone, than be a skeptic and find out the grommets are poor quality or defective, and the noise is still there!!  :willynilly:

When I first noticed the rubber material split, I immediately thought... Gnarls... YOU DUMMY.. YOU OVER-TIGHTENED THE NUTS!!... BUT... then with all the debate and discussion about the quality or lack of with some of the aftermarket parts being used by some of us here, I suspected possibly "bad" parts.   :dunno:

In my past, the grommets have always worked for multiple R&Rs of the cover over many months.  :yesnod:

I am still wondering if the rubber vulcanizing process during manufacturing was inadequate, or the rubber material is too soft.  The ones I got from engnbldr are more "squishy" than the new Beck Arnley ones I just received. Perhaps the more squishy ones are a better design... I don't know?  :dunno:

EDIT:  Adding some weird thinking... So if the soft rubber grommets are too soft, and as I tighten the nuts, the rubber compresses and I don't "feel" the spec'd torque amount, so I keep tighening.  With the stiffer style grommets, they don't compress and when tightening the nuts, I can "feel" them getting tight against the cover and nuts.  Does that make sense?

I appreciate your input! :beerchug:

Gnarls. :spin:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: blackdiamond on Dec 05, 2017, 11:30:46 AM
EDIT:  Adding some weird thinking... So if the soft rubber grommets are too soft, and as I tighten the nuts, the rubber compresses and I don't "feel" the spec'd torque amount, so I keep tighening.  With the stiffer style grommets, they don't compress and when tightening the nuts, I can "feel" them getting tight against the cover and nuts.  Does that make sense?

I'm sort of jumping into this discussion without reading everything, but it sounds like the speculation is that you're getting noise because you over tightened some bolts that eliminated the required clearance with internal parts.  My thought while reading some of the posts was what I think you're getting at here.  If the grommets failed while being tightened they would allow more compression and you wouldn't be able to achieve the same torque with the expect cover clearance.

Maybe Chris is correct for what's causing the noise, but instead of it being an issue of over tightening the bolts is an issue of the grommets failing as they were tightened.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 05, 2017, 04:11:20 PM
I'm sort of jumping into this discussion without reading everything, but it sounds like the speculation is that you're getting noise because you over tightened some bolts that eliminated the required clearance with internal parts.  My thought while reading some of the posts was what I think you're getting at here.  If the grommets failed while being tightened they would allow more compression and you wouldn't be able to achieve the same torque with the expect cover clearance.

Maybe Chris is correct for what's causing the noise, but instead of it being an issue of over tightening the bolts is an issue of the grommets failing as they were tightened.


Hi blackdiamond,

The “speculation” is from bgen.  Until he mentioned it, I did not think it sounds like that issue.

To catch you up….

At about 200 miles on the break-in I was continuing to attempting to diagnose the sound – deeper than a rocker tick, more like a very light knock.  BUT.. the input shaft seal on the tranny was leaking badly.  The rear diff and the power steering gear box are both leaking.

So… I decided to stop and fix those and then get back to figuring out what the noise is. 

I’ve been “listening” to engines and taught by my dad (who was a trained auto mechanic) about sounds and vibrations, since I was old enough to speak in sentences.  After spending 1000s of dollars rebuilding this engine and then have a noise that doesn’t sound right makes me very unhappy.  At this point, I cannot determine for sure what it is.  I am very much hoping bgen is correct, and I somehow over-tightened the cover and inside top of the cover is contacting the rocker rack.

I may be overly analyzing this, but I don’t think so.  I have several thoughts on what it might be and I have a short list of tests I will do when I can drive it.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 79coyotefrg on Dec 05, 2017, 06:17:11 PM
I did that myself once and didnt realize i had done it,  valve adjusters were tapping on the inside of the cover.  Hopefully thats it but if not I would drop the pan and check the rod bearings just to be sure.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 06, 2017, 03:37:07 AM
I did that myself once and didnt realize i had done it,  valve adjusters were tapping on the inside of the cover.  Hopefully thats it but if not I would drop the pan and check the rod bearings just to be sure.


I'm hoping its in the top end.

The sound frequency is a piston speed, not cam speed, so that's why I got concerned immediately, and did not consider the rockers.

If after I replace the cover gasket and grommets and get the valve lash adjusted again, and I can drive it, I will let a couple of my engine builder friends listen to it to get more opinions.

Thank you for the input.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 09, 2017, 07:12:42 PM
UPDATE:  12-09-2017

I installed the shifters and hooked up the exhaust pipe today.  I had trickled charged the battery. I was surprised how quickly it started up after sitting for weeks.  At the car wash, I degreased the power steering gear box and the rear diff… need fix the leaks.

Tomorrow I will re-adjust the valve lash, install the new rocker cover gasket and grommets.  I will be very careful NOT to over-tighten the acorn nuts.

The soft knock I’m hearing is still there so I’ll do a test to see if the sound changes when I pull the spark plug **WIRES** one at time with engine warm and idling.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: 300k on Dec 09, 2017, 09:50:59 PM
I’ll do a test to see if the sound changes when I pull the spark plugs one at time with engine warm and idling.

If you do that, the sound will definitely change. it will go from normal motor with exhaust to open header LOL

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 10, 2017, 02:50:28 AM
If you do that, the sound will definitely change. it will go from normal motor with exhaust to open header LOL



Haahahhahahah.... YES....   :bowdown: you are right!!!

Sorry.. I meant spark plug "wires"....   :smack:

I will just pull of the spark plug WIRES... LOL.  :gap:

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 10, 2017, 03:25:15 PM
UPDATE 12-10-17

I re-adjusted the valve lash after engine at norm operating temp.

A couple rockers were loose and couple were tight, by just a ½ to 1 thousandths.  I installed the new Beck Arnley grommets and new gasket.  I like the way it fits very snuggly in the groove of the cover.

Based on andykrow’s experience with the same cam and valve lash, I did feel a better throttle response and it pulls hard from off idle through 5,000 in 1st gear.  It pulls in 2nd gear but torque is less at about 4500.  So far this is a torquey cam profile and doesn’t have much after 5,000 RPM.  It pulls hard from about 2,000 to 3500.

The light knock is gone.  The rocker tick seems a little louder than usual, but it could be that I am over analyzing.

The rock tick seems to be balanced and sounds very close the same for each cylinder.  When I probe the top of the cover with my stethoscope probe, I can hear each rocker.  Number 4 is still has a tad louder tick.  Several lobes still have not completely shined up.  I need more time on this engine.

I have an engine oil leak right at the bottom of the bell housing.  Probably the rear main seal or the seal housing gasket!!!!  I will need some serious psychotropic drugs and about 5 days in a padded cell if I have to drop the tranny again!!!  Why would a brand new seal and gasket leak?

I’m driving it to work tomorrow.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: emsvitil on Dec 10, 2017, 03:37:42 PM
Maybe the leak was the rear half-moon plug.........
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 10, 2017, 03:47:10 PM
Maybe the leak was the rear half-moon plug.........

That I did not check.  I will check it.  That would be a miraculous discovery!

I quit working it without REALLY checking out the source of the engine oil leak.

Thank you.

Gnarls.

Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Slabzilla on Dec 10, 2017, 06:09:40 PM
I usually start with the #4 valve because it's the hardest to get at and the one you get to when the engine is coolest, to get the quietest adjustment possible on that one.  With all the valve cover stuff you've been doing your oil leak, like emsvitil said, is most likely the half moon.  Lousy luck on those grommets.  :smack:
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 10, 2017, 06:51:35 PM
I usually start with the #4 valve because it's the hardest to get at and the one you get to when the engine is coolest, to get the quietest adjustment possible on that one.  With all the valve cover stuff you've been doing your oil leak, like emsvitil said, is most likely the half moon.  Lousy luck on those grommets.  :smack:

I'll post a photo of the area I see oil tomorrow.

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 11, 2017, 01:56:53 AM
Here's the oil leak.  It is dripping on both sides of the where the bell housing mates with the back of the block.  It doesn't look like the oil is dripping from the little rectangle slot in the very center bottom of the bell housing.

I'll check the half moon at the back of head.  If the leak is NOT the crank seal or seal housing, the happiness that I will feel will be HUGE!

https://imgur.com/a108sRE

Gnarls.
Title: Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
Post by: Gnarly4X on Dec 11, 2017, 02:15:19 AM
I usually start with the #4 valve because it's the hardest to get at and the one you get to when the engine is coole