Poll

Rock crawl competitions should be for fastest time or accrued penalties?

Time, Hammer Down!
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Penalties, Drive smarter not harder...
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H8PVMNT

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Competition: Time or Penalties?
« on: Sep 11, 2012, 09:06:30 AM »
So a local 4WD group and I have a running disagreement on how to score a rock crawl event. 

I believe in scoring with penalties under a maximum time limit, with hitting flags, reversing and stoping all adding up to points and the lowest score winning. If you dont finish or you take longer than the alloted time, you DNF. This allows for alot of personal driving style, weather it be fast or slow and rewards finesse and skill with a winning score.

My esteemed collegues in the local club have been obstacle racing for about 100 years and believe fastest time is the only way to go. Part of this I think is because it pleases the crowd and they sell tickets to watch and partly because most of them have old school race trucks with crappy gearing, not crawlers or trail rigs.

So what do you guys think?  How are most folks doing it in your area, time or points and which is better in your opinions and why?
« Last Edit: Sep 11, 2012, 09:30:58 AM by H8PVMNT »
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H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #1 on: Sep 11, 2012, 06:34:57 PM »
No one knows what I'm talking about or what?
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Dr Phat

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #2 on: Sep 11, 2012, 06:51:24 PM »
I know what your talking about, the clubs on the east coast I have gone with always do penalties, not fastest time.

Snowtoy

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #3 on: Sep 12, 2012, 12:55:46 AM »
I am old school(and getting closer to an old timer everyday LOL), so I would say penalties and time deductions, so the slowest time w/o stopping or backing up/hitting a flag etc., wins.  However understanding that this type of technical wheeling makes for rather boring viewing, and that ticket sells fund events, I know you need a high speed section as well for a high carnage factor. 

If you have the time, I would set it up w/two runs, one where the fastest time wins, and one where the slowest time wins.  The tech/slow run would have a set time and competitors would need to get as close to that time as possible and would get time deductions for stopping, backing up or hitting cones, etc.  You could then have 3 winners per class, one for fastest, slowest, and combined.

If time or number of participants don't allow for two runs, have a course with a tech section and a speed section.  With a tech course like the one above, the competitors course time would be deducted from the set time, and that time would be added to the speed section.  This should have the high carnage factor of rock racing, as well as demonstrating the technical driving side of rock crawling.
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H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #4 on: Sep 12, 2012, 08:11:59 AM »
The ideal time theorey is something I have heard of but never tried. The argument I've heard against it is that ideal time has more to do with timing and doesn't take into account personal driving style, that a guy could be fast or slow and still be a good clean driver.

I like the ideal of a mixed course with a technical section and a speed section. You could almost score the technical part, time the speed part and combine the numbers. That might be the best of both worlds.  Most of our serious competitors won't even come out if it's for time because they think it will be just another tuff truck event with billy-jo-bob catching big air to please the crowd and the winner being the one guy with some kind of high horsepower dedicated race truck.

Good input keep it comming...

Has anybody participated in similar events?
« Last Edit: Sep 12, 2012, 08:24:24 AM by H8PVMNT »
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Snowtoy

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #5 on: Sep 13, 2012, 12:12:21 AM »
With the time limit I was thinking you would need it to keep things moving, maybe a time window.  However with a course set up that eliminates the ability to throttle down, you wouldn't need a time limit or window at all.

The mixed course should keep your current competitors happy, as well as attracting the hammer down crowd, w/o having the "Tough Truck comp" feel to it, and be a fairly equal competition between the two driving styles.
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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #6 on: Sep 13, 2012, 02:23:15 AM »
Pretty much everything you are thinking, most of the competitions I've been to combine all of those. First and foremost is the quickest times, then they add the technical part such as the course with cones or flags that must be avoided or you get time penalties which add time to your total for each cone you hit and then there is a time limit to complete the course or you get dq'ed.
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H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #7 on: Sep 13, 2012, 07:54:05 AM »
Pretty much everything you are thinking, most of the competitions I've been to combine all of those. First and foremost is the quickest times, then they add the technical part such as the course with cones or flags that must be avoided or you get time penalties which add time to your total for each cone you hit and then there is a time limit to complete the course or you get dq'ed.

We have done a run what you brung podunk rally cross a couple times (autocross with cars on dirt) and we did time with 5 second penalties for cones. Carful driving definately played there.

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"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #8 on: Sep 17, 2012, 08:22:40 AM »
OK so I found out yesterday they are using traditional penalty scoring but with a hadicap for modifications so you start with a certain amount of points ahead for how built your truck is with points given for lift, winch, lockers etc. It will be interesting to see how that plays.
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"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

OldGold3VZE

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #9 on: Sep 17, 2012, 08:46:33 AM »
My thoughts are that there should be a given time limit for a section.  Then, there should be pre-determined time penalties for errors, hitting cones, backing up, winching, etc.  Last, once the section has been completed within the given time limit, you would subtract the remaining time for an overall time score.

Example:

Section time limit 5 minutes
Competitor runs in 3:30, but backs up twice, each backup adding 15 seconds to his time, and uses his winch once, adding 45 second to his time, obviously on top of the time it took the competitor to back up and use winch.  Then, the competitor receives a negative time, or a time reduction, for finishing the actual run in under 5 mins.

3:30 +:15 + :15 + :45 = 4:45 - :15 = total time of 4:30
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H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #10 on: Sep 18, 2012, 08:33:46 AM »
I want to do a winter comp in an icy snow dump mess for some kind of timed score.  I think that one would work well for it...
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Stu

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Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #11 on: Sep 25, 2012, 06:27:18 PM »
I've run several comps both ways. Scoring with penalties sucks. You give a competitor a 10 minute time limit and they are going to try to use the whole thing and end up hung up and not finishing anyway. It boring to watch and there generally a lot of complaining about calls.  Except for a fastest man to the top race, a time race with bonus line time deductions works he best  Keeps competitors moving and adds finesse to it.

H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #12 on: Sep 25, 2012, 07:30:27 PM »
I've run several comps both ways. Scoring with penalties sucks. You give a competitor a 10 minute time limit and they are going to try to use the whole thing and end up hung up and not finishing anyway. It boring to watch and there generally a lot of complaining about calls.  Except for a fastest man to the top race, a time race with bonus line time deductions works he best  Keeps competitors moving and adds finesse to it.

So how did you work the bonus line time deductions? I assume you had time penalties for going off course etc...

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Stu

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Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #13 on: Sep 26, 2012, 12:37:45 PM »
No penalties, only bonuses as time deductions. We set course and have gates and 2 tires would have to pass through gate in order to proceed and if the passed with all 4 tires clean, you got a bonus. People complain a lot less about not getting a bonus vs getting a penalty even though it's the same thing.
 

H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #14 on: Sep 26, 2012, 03:07:54 PM »
That's pretty interesting because it's time but also wheeling finesse I might have to try it sometime.
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 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #15 on: Oct 01, 2012, 09:53:23 AM »
So I went to the event this last weekend...  First and second place were both Marlin equiped Toyotas that drove there and drove home :).

I ended up in first place at 17 points and my buddy Don in second place at 26 points.  Overall the scoring was OK but we thought the hadicaps for mods were a little to extreme.  Because of low lift, no winch and 35s I ended up with only a 17 for a hadicap.  There was a -10 bonus line that I didn't have time to take because the hand-me-down square front driveshaft I was using came apart and I had to haul ass or time out for the last half after my buddies put it back together mid-course. Don cleaned the bonus line.  Without hadicaps I would have had a 0 and Don a -4. They plan to tweak the scoring as they go so we'll see how it plays in the future.
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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #16 on: Oct 02, 2012, 01:52:48 AM »
So you got knocked for having not enough lift?  That's a lame handicap. 
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H8PVMNT [OP]

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Re: Competition: Time or Penalties?
« Reply #17 on: Oct 02, 2012, 08:36:10 AM »
No, less points was a better score, I had less hadicap for lower lift so I had a more favorable score to start with than someone taller. Funny thing was bigger engines had more hadicap and most of the V8 rigs there didn't even finish the course because they broke. The hadicap is a swell ideal but I think they need to tune the system a bit if they want to accomplish what they are shooting for.
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"Except for maybe Seattle."  -H8PVMNT

"I plan to hit 300k in this truck"  :)bestgen4runner

 "I'm jealous of your shop. It has concrete and doesn't smell like pickles like the old shop  "  300K

 
 
 
 
 

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