Author Topic: 22r 20r hybrid what to look for and is it worth time and money  (Read 3890 times)

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17yrOLDyotakid

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22r 20r hybrid what to look for and is it worth time and money
« on: January 23, 2012, 01:05:23 PM »
earlier i posted about having a 20r in my truck and a 22r just sitting in my Dad's shop. some of yall said i should think about a 20r 22r hybrid to make them V8's piss themselves lol and its been on my mind all day at school. if i do it i would put a 20r head and intake manifold on a 22r block for higher compression and the 20r intake manifold from the carb is a good bit wider than the 22r manifold if im right?? but would i have to get stronger rods to keep them from warping from the increased compression and i dont think id have to forge the bottom end but correct me if im wrong because iv heard of them but never really payed any attention to em. does anyone got one of these hybrids, if you do how does it perform as a DD/Weekend trail rig? Thanks :beerchug:

79coyotefrg

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earlier i posted about having a 20r in my truck and a 22r just sitting in my Dad's shop. some of yall said i should think about a 20r 22r hybrid to make them V8's piss themselves lol and its been on my mind all day at school. if i do it i would put a 20r head and intake manifold on a 22r block for higher compression and the 20r intake manifold from the carb is a good bit wider than the 22r manifold if im right?? but would i have to get stronger rods to keep them from warping from the increased compression and i dont think id have to forge the bottom end but correct me if im wrong because iv heard of them but never really payed any attention to em. does anyone got one of these hybrids, if you do how does it perform as a DD/Weekend trail rig? Thanks :beerchug:
Ive had 1 and Ive built 4.  the three that I built are all still running very strong, mine dropped an exhaust valve at 7200 rpm and died :(

the crank shaft is forged from the factory and the rods on the 20R and early 22R's are very beefy.  no need for improvement there either

the 20R head is much more efficient than the 22R head and flows much more air.  this is why it performs so much better and why even  a stock 20R with a weber carb, header and a HEALTHY cam can really put a smile on your face you wont be able to get rid of.

basically  you want to use everything from the 20R but the block and pistons
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

79coyotefrg

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AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

17yrOLDyotakid [OP]

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those are pretty sick. i imagine they drive pretty good off road to right?

Rocksurfer

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It depends on where you are and the smog laws you have to deal with. You can get away with a 22r/20r hybrid since everything will look the same but things like cams, carbs, headers and such can't be faked they will know. I had one in my 80 and since I live in CA. I was restricted in add-ons so my gain was minimal and not worth the effort. If you don't have smog issues where you are then it can be well worth the mod.
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79coyotefrg

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those are pretty sick. i imagine they drive pretty good off road to right?
in the rocks and on the road they have as much low end torque as the stock engines.  don't be suckered into the guys that tell you you need a "RV" cam or a "crawler" cam.  BULL :pokinit: these engines are designed for torque.  in the 4 cylinder engine world the 20R  and 22R are torque monsters. 
run a compression test on your 20R and report back the numbers.    you can easily install a 32/36 weber for $400 and a good header for another $400 and install on the 20R and see how much you gain with JUST those mods.   they can both be easily used in the 20/22 hybrid :driving:
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

79coyotefrg

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a little education on high performance 20 and 22R engines directly from toysport.com (they race toyota's)

Quote
In 1985 Toysport raced a 22RE Toyota Celica GTS in the Macao Grand Prix.  The original plan was to use an 18RG, but since the vehicle had US serial #'s (from Toyota Motorsport) we were forced to use the U.S. engine the 22RE!  To the entertainment of the other Toyota Teams from Japan, we qualified at the last minute, in the last half of the grid.  The other Celicas (with their Twin Cams) were all in the top 6 positions.  At the finish the Toysport Celica placed 3rd- behind 2 BMW Motorsport prepared 6 cylinder BMWs!  This is the highest finish achieved by the 22RE in international racing competition.

From 1984 to 1989 Toysport prepared a Spec-Engine for SCORE / HDRA Toyota private entrants.  The winnings from the Toyota Contingency Program testify to the racing capability of the set-up.  The engine package kit is still available, as complete engines.  This set-up won National Championships for Toyota in Class 7 and Class 7 4WD.  The carbureted engines developed 185-195 HP, but consistently out ran the 239-240 HP Ford engines in the same class.  The secret is in the torquey characteristics of the power band.  The limiting factor of this engine is also its strongest point.  The long stroke limits RPM capability to about 6200 maximum, but the bottom end will take a lot of abuse.  The crankshaft is forged.

Quote
Modifying the 20R / 22R / 22RE / 22RTE Engines

BLOCK:  The best set-up is achieved by starting with a 20R head and a 22R early block.  This allows the use of the twin-row timing chains- over the late model single-chain type.  Boring the 20R to 92mm is possible but some castings will develop bubbles in the bores that eventually clean up at 92mm.  The high compression pistons for the 20R / 22R are forged.  The stock early 22RE piston (full crown type) can also be used under the 20R head but the block and deck must not have more than .5mm cut, if used with big valves.

The 20R / 22R early and 22RE late model, responds well to high compression pistons.  The rods can be prepped by stress relieving and shot-peening.  The crankshaft oil galleys may be chamfered.  High Tensile bolts can be upgraded to ARP- main, rods, and head bolts or stud kits.

The early and late style blocks have different engine mounting bosses, so interchangeability of late block to early chassis and vice versa may come up.  Some early and late blocks have provisions for both.  Really early and really late blocks do not have these provisions.  When preparing an engine, make sure that the block has the correct mounting boss- or else you will have to deal with modifying them mounts.

The 22RTE with forged pistons will survive 25 lbs!  A metal head gasket is required.


AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

79coyotefrg

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this part about matching the cam to the rocker assembly takes some time to get right but I found some cutting torch tip cleaners worked miracles

Quote
CYLINDER HEAD:  It is mandatory to port all the heads.  Big valves are also necessary to achieve and maximize the flow.  Avoid cutting more than .50mm since valve clearance may be a problem with some piston combinations.  Tri-Y headers work the best because they complement the wide torque band of these engines.  If you are converting into the 20R head make sure that the 20R head has provisions for power steering (if you have power steering).

The choice in camshafts from many sources, must be carefully considered.  High lift and long duration cams may affect the rocker arm geometry (and oil spraying function of the oil feed).  Unless you take the time to ensure that the rocker arms are repositioned correctly (modifying the rocker assembly) do not even attempt.  The long stroke / low RPM design of the engine dictates very mild cam lift and duration.  You cannot redesign an engine with camshafts!    Mild cams up to about 280 duration will work with the EFI with some adjustments to the AFM (air flow meter).

Stiffer valve springs are a safeguard from valve-float, but will not enhance performance since the best cam profiles will run fine with stock valve springs.  An adjustable camshaft gear will allow the most accurate setting (remember that a Celica is totally different from a 4WD Pick-up).

There are no TwinCam heads available for these engines.

The 22RTE head chambers can be opened to lower compression and increase the flow.  Big valves should also be considered, but not obligatory since this is forced induction.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

H8PVMNT

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Hey Coyote what cam were you using anyway? The reason I ask is that you seemed pretty happy with your setup so it must be pretty good.  I am probably going with the hybrid setup on my '80 in a year or so when I rebuild. I ended up with an '81 22r laying in my garage and the truck has a good 20r so I might as well...
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79coyotefrg

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Hey Coyote what cam were you using anyway? The reason I ask is that you seemed pretty happy with your setup so it must be pretty good.  I am probably going with the hybrid setup on my '80 in a year or so when I rebuild. I ended up with an '81 22r laying in my garage and the truck has a good 20r so I might as well...
I used this cam,  http://www.lceperformance.com/Camshaft-20R-22R-RE-RET-Stage-2-Cam-p/1022036.htm

it is a stage 2 race cam and with the header and weber its AWESOME
even in the modified 22R I'm currently running but I want to build another hybrid soon.

links edited since LCE changed their online catalog
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 01:33:40 PM by 79coyotefrg »
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

79coyotefrg

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I really suggest this cam for just about anybody http://www.lceperformance.com/Camshaft-20R-22R-RE-RET-Street-Performer-Cam-p/1022054.htm

its well mannered but with a well tuned 22R carb or a weber, and a header (or 22R exhaust on a 20R engine)  it will perform nicely and you dont have to clearance the pistons as I did with my cam.


links edited since LCE changed their online catalog
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 01:33:18 PM by 79coyotefrg »
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

H8PVMNT

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Yeah I'd rather not have to clearance pistons if I can get decent performance out of the milder cam.
Certifried hard nok dood...

79coyotefrg

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its a good choice :thumbs:
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

yotaneck13

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dont you use the 22r rocker assy in the hybred?
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kneedownnate

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One with aluminum rockers, yes.  None of my early 22r's had aluminum rockers so I dug through pnp for a newer engine with a nice clean setup.  Didn't notice a difference between it and the steel setup though.

Definitely worth going with the hybrid.  Cheap and easy power upgrade with much more potential than the 22r head, and much greater potential for high rpm power if needed.  Took mine up to 6700 rpm just for kicks, slightly bigger cam (268* w/10.5mm lift :dunno: ) and otherwise stock, and it never fell on it's face or did anything odd.  Stock 22r head woulda run outa air much sooner, and just gets to a point where they stop wanting to rev.
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