Author Topic: 3.0 injectors not firing  (Read 31377 times)

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superyota

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3.0 injectors not firing
« on: Mar 21, 2011, 08:42:45 AM »
I was helping my buddy over the weekend trouble shoot his 95 4runner.  He was driving down the road and it just died.  
It's getting spark. The cold start is on a toggle and if you turn it on, it will run the motor and as soon as you turn the cold start off, the engine dies, as if it's getting no fuel from the injectors.  We pulled the fuel pump and replaced it, and it made no difference.  For some reason, it seems as though the injectors are not getting signal to open.  Maybe igniter issure, or distributor?  checked all the fueses and everything is good.  Any help would be great.  Thanks in advance.

Edwin
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:45:52 AM by superyota »
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #1 on: Mar 21, 2011, 08:29:53 PM »
Stop throwing parts at it and start troubleshooting. Here is a link for the FSM for it.

http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1990-1995_4Rnr/Toyota.4Runner.1990.1995/contents.htm
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #2 on: Mar 21, 2011, 11:16:40 PM »
maybe igniter issure, or distributor?  checked all the fueses and everything is good.  Any help would be great.  Thanks in advance.


they only control the spark. main relay maybe, can you jump the fuel pump
Dr.Maxwe001 – well i have a 15 gal compressor now and if I gett he 60  and then use the 15 as a reserve that wil give me 75 gal  thats close to 80 isnt it ?

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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #3 on: Mar 22, 2011, 08:04:22 AM »

they only control the spark. main relay maybe, can you jump the fuel pump

are you talking about the main efi relay under the hood in the fuse block?  we tried jumping the fuel pump and sent power to it non stop and tried cranking, but nothing happened.  i thought the ignitor also sent signal to the ecu to signal the injectors to open?  i'll look and the wiring diagram again.  how do i check the relay to see if its good or bad?  can i jump it somehow and temporarily bypass the relay?  thanks again for the response.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #4 on: Mar 22, 2011, 08:05:22 AM »
Stop throwing parts at it and start troubleshooting. Here is a link for the FSM for it.

http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1990-1995_4Rnr/Toyota.4Runner.1990.1995/contents.htm
great link.  Thanks!  I'm checking it out right now.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #5 on: Mar 22, 2011, 08:49:24 AM »
to check the relay-use a multimeter-
google "how to test a relay"
and you should be able to find more detail than I can try to explain without pictures here.

Have you pulled the main fuel line where it connects to the motor and cranked the motor over to make sure you are getting fuel to the motor?
If so, I would assume that your injectors are the problem since you are getting spark, (unless for some reason you aren't getting the right oxygen mixture).

Pull a spark plug after cranking it over a bunch to see if it is soaked with fuel or not.  That would help eliminate some stuff too. 

This is one of the main reasons I put a carbed 22r in a 3rd gen truck-WAY simpler and easier to trouble shoot.    :qtip:
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1992 Extended Cab Pickup: 22r, weber carb, 51" RUF, F-150 rears, Aussie Front, Welded Rear, etc.
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superyota [OP]

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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #6 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:21:12 AM »
yes, the main fuel line was pulled, and it is getting gas.  we havn't pulled the plugs to see what they look like, but being it starts as soon as the cold start is switched, i would have to say the plugs would more than likely be dry from not getting any fuel.  i have a multimeter, i'll look into checking the relay.  any other ideas in the mean time?
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #7 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:36:17 AM »
So it starts when the cold start is switched?
I am not up on EFI stuff, but it sounds to me then that your problem could be related to air/fuel mixture (kinda like a carb needs to be choked to start the engine cold).

There has to be a sensor on the throttle body or air box or somewhere around that system that isn't functioning properly, that would be my guess.

Let me know if you need me to try to explain that relay testing thing over this forum.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #8 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:40:25 AM »
the cold start is basically like having a choke.  but once the truck starts, it will run on its own without the cold start.  i'm 99% sure the injectors aren't coming on, I just don't know why yet.  If you don't mind explaining how to test the relay, that would be great.  thanks agian.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #9 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:41:56 AM »
I also checked the air flow meter, and when it's cracked open, the fuel pump turn on, so i'm pretty sure its working, or at least somewhat.  and the tps was changed about 8 months ago with a new one, and yes, it was adjusted correctly within range.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #10 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:53:28 AM »
You probably are dead on with the injectors, check to see if they are getting power with that multi meter, or they might be clogged, worn, who knows!

Ok, so the relay works like this:


You can test the relay with a multimeter, but you have to know how to use it. Pull the relay out of its socket and check across the coil with the ohmmeter section of the multimeter. It should read low resistance, under 100 ohms. If it reads higher, the coil of the relay is bad. If it is good, replace the relay, have someone crank on the truck, and check the voltage at the common (C) terminal. You should read 12 volts. If not, a fuse is probably bad. If you read 12 volts, check the normally open (NO) contact of the relay. It should read 12 volts. If not, your relay contacts are bad.

this web page explains the terminals of a realy, and it has pictures.  If you are like me, the stuff written above doesn't mean jack to me without a picture.

http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp


Read more: How Can I Test a Headlight Relay? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/way_5815519_can-test-headlight-relay_.html#ixzz1HLdal1Ng
1975 FJ-55 Landcruiser: pretty much stock with 31 x9.50x15 TSL's
1992 Extended Cab Pickup: 22r, weber carb, 51" RUF, F-150 rears, Aussie Front, Welded Rear, etc.
Build: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=78730

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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #11 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:55:47 AM »
You can usually turn the key to the "On" or "run" position (the one just before you get to the starter)
and you will hear a click under the hood-that is a relay working sound- if that makes any sense.
1975 FJ-55 Landcruiser: pretty much stock with 31 x9.50x15 TSL's
1992 Extended Cab Pickup: 22r, weber carb, 51" RUF, F-150 rears, Aussie Front, Welded Rear, etc.
Build: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=78730

superyota [OP]

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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #12 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:58:02 AM »
thanks for the info.  at work right now, but i'll check it out when i get off.  
i don't think the injectors are worn or plugged.  I can't imagine them all going out at the same time.  i'll triple check all the fuses again too.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #13 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:59:20 AM »
You can usually turn the key to the "On" or "run" position (the one just before you get to the starter)
and you will hear a click under the hood-that is a relay working sound- if that makes any sense.

is that the sound of the relay i'm checking, or another relay, but the same sound?
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #14 on: Mar 22, 2011, 10:32:29 AM »
I forgot that EFI has like 6 relays under the hood alone, so that was probably not the best advice, sorry.

Stick with the Ohm meter,

Which relay do you suspect is out?
We know the Fuel pump relay is working,
Is there a relay for your injectors or Fuel injection system?


What I would do is start checking if there is power at the injectors and all the areas you suspect to be not working. Don't worry about the relay until you have traced the power problem to the relay itself.

For example, if the injectors don't have power getting to them, follow the wires from the injector to the harness (use a wiring diagram to help), and just check what is next in the circut- probably the relay.
If power is getting to the relay, keep tracing wires, till you hit the next thing (fuse, computer, etc.)

90 % of electrical problems are from poor ground and loose connections, keep that in mind too.

Another way to check a relay, is to unplug the power wire and jump a wire from a battery directly to the power source (i.e. unplug the fuel pump if it isnt working, and run a hot wire from a battery to the hot terminal on the fuel pump, ground wire to the grounds, etc.  If the pump (or whatever you need to check) comes on this way, then you can probably rule that the relay is bad) 

Hope that helps.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #15 on: Mar 22, 2011, 10:37:40 AM »
What about the MAF sensor?
Dr.Maxwe001 – well i have a 15 gal compressor now and if I gett he 60  and then use the 15 as a reserve that wil give me 75 gal  thats close to 80 isnt it ?

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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #16 on: Mar 22, 2011, 11:14:32 AM »
I havn't checked it with a multimeter, but when the door cracks open, the fuel pump kicks on.  not sure how to see if it's affecting the injectors. the relay i'm a bit suspicious about is the one under the hood the is labeled EFI.  I'm not sure on this, but don't I thought the injectors had constant power, and got a signaled ground that made them open and close.  someone please school me on this.  by following the diagram, it shows that they are wired in 3's.  injectors 1,2, and 3 are all on the same wire, and 4,5 and 6 are on another. red/white goes to ecu, and black/brn goes to ignitor.  this is confusing..... :think:
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #17 on: Mar 22, 2011, 11:22:19 AM »
sounds fine to me.
Check those wires to the injectors with the multi meter, make sure they are getting power.
If they are then the problem could be mechanical or clogged/faulty injector (if the problem is indeed the injectors)
Also, just for kicks, check that EFI relay
1975 FJ-55 Landcruiser: pretty much stock with 31 x9.50x15 TSL's
1992 Extended Cab Pickup: 22r, weber carb, 51" RUF, F-150 rears, Aussie Front, Welded Rear, etc.
Build: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=78730

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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #18 on: Mar 22, 2011, 09:26:49 PM »
There is also a Circuit Open Relay in the kick panel on the PS.
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superyota [OP]

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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #19 on: Mar 25, 2011, 02:00:02 PM »
so my buddy checked the relay, it checked out ok.  checked for power to injectors, it was good.  but the injectors don't get a ground for some reason.  Is the ground signaled from the ignitor?  he already went a dumped $300 on a new ignitor at autozone, just waiting for it now.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #20 on: Mar 25, 2011, 02:04:44 PM »
Not sure.  Just check the wiring diagrams for the truck.
You could always run a ground wire yourself to the frame.
Keep us posted.
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Build: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=78730

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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #21 on: Mar 25, 2011, 02:13:10 PM »
following the diagram, from the 2 wires coming off the injectors, one goes to the ignitor, and the other to the ecu.  there is no ground.  thats why i'm thinking it's a signaled ground from the ignitor.  the ecu is sending constant power to the injector.  it's just not getting a ground.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #22 on: Mar 25, 2011, 05:54:35 PM »
Is the ground from the firewall to the intake plenum installed? This is one of the most important grounds as far as the engine goes.
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #23 on: Mar 25, 2011, 07:21:10 PM »
like oops said stop throwing parts at it. how did you check if the injectors are getting power? also if your talking about the cold start injector being wire to a switch, my question is why would you do that?
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2011, 11:31:43 AM »
finally got around to checking it out this weekend.  checked the resistance in the distributor pick up coils(all 3), and it checked out. also checked the ignitor.  part of the instructions on checking was to first tap the + side of the battery with a test wire and watch for spark at the coil, and we didn't get spark.  the instructions then said if you don't get spark from + try -.  we tried - and got the coil to give a spark.  the instructions never said if its a issue if you have no spark at -.  so then we moved on. 
I also checked the injector plug on the driver side front injector.  both terminals were hot with a test light.  I'm not sure why they would both be hot.  I followed the wires and it looks like one goes to the ecm and the other to the ignitor.  so now it has me thinking the ecm is bad.  any other suggestions?
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Re: 3.0 not getting fuel
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2011, 11:45:07 AM »
here is a link to all the steps we followed and everything we checked.  and it all checked out good.  we triple checked the all the cround cables, all the plugs, and everything else we could think of. only question was the tap test on the ignitor for spark.  -no spark, +spark...
http://www.yotatech.com/f2/no-start-condition-ignition-coil-test-info-3vze-89-95-a-10543/

Tech Tip: No Spark and/or No Injector Pulse on Toyota

Application: 1989-1995 Toyota Pickup & 4-Runner with 3VZE Engine.

Symptom: No Start.

Theory: The Ignition system on this engine uses a Distributor with three
Pick-up Coils inside and an external Igniter and Coil. The ECM uses the
signals generated by the three Pick-ups to control the Igniter, which
controls the negative side of the Coil for spark. The Igniter also sends a
signal back to the ECM for injector pulse.

The Test: The first place to start is to check the Pick-ups inside the
Distributor. If any of them are defective, nothing else is going to work,
not even the tap-test we're going to do later. The first step is to test
resistance on each of the three Pick-ups. You'll want to check them with
the harness unplugged from the Distributor. Identify the terminals on the
Distributor connector using the wire colors on the harness side.

Terminal-1: White..NE signal
Terminal-2: Red..G1 signal
Terminal-3: Black..G2 signal
Terminal-4: Green..G- signal

Between G- and G1, it should be 125 & 200 ohms. Between G- and G2, it
should also be 125 to 200 ohms. Between G- and NE, it should 155 to 250
ohms. All of these resistance specs are at ambient temperature. If checked
on a hot engine, the tolerances go up about 30 ohms. If any one Pick-up
fails the test, it needs to be replaced before any further testing. If all
three Pick-ups pass, we need to do a "tap-test" at the Igniter. Make sure
the connector is plugged back in at the Distributor. Go to the Igniter,
which should be mounted at the Coil. On the Igniter connector, locate the
Black/Blue wire and probe into it with a test-light. With the key on, tap
the alligator clip of the test-light on battery negative and watch for
spark out of the Coil. If you get no response, try tapping the alligator
clip on battery positive, again watching for spark out of the Coil. If
there's no spark in either case, check for battery voltage at the positive
side of the Coil. If that's okay, attach a second test-light from ground to
the negative side of the Coil and redo the tap-test at the Igniter. If the
test-light on Coil negative flashes during the tap-test, and you had
voltage on the positive side, you have a bad Coil. If the second test-light
did not flash on Coil negative, we need to check the remaining wires at the
Igniter. Make sure you have battery voltage on the Black/Red wire at the
Igniter with the key on. If that's okay, make sure you have continuity on
the Black/White wire between the Igniter connector and the negative side of
the Coil. Make sure the Igniter itself is grounded properly to its mounting
surface on the truck, no rust or corrosion. The last check will be to make
sure the Black wire does not show full continuity to ground. This wire goes
to the Tachometer, and if grounded somewhere in the harness, will keep the
Igniter from working. If all of these things pass inspection, chances are
good you have a defective Igniter. Be sure you check resistance on the Coil
to be sure we don't damage a new Igniter. The primary side should be 0.4 to
0.6 ohms. Secondary should be 10,200 to 13,800 ohms.

The Fix: Replace the defective parts determined by the above testing. Don't
forget, if you do end up replacing the Igniter, double check Coil
resistance to avoid damaging a new Igniter.
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Re: 3.0 injectors not firing
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2011, 04:01:42 PM »
Pull injector, put it in a glass jar, with the fuel pump running, put power to it
Dr.Maxwe001 – well i have a 15 gal compressor now and if I gett he 60  and then use the 15 as a reserve that wil give me 75 gal  thats close to 80 isnt it ?

superyota [OP]

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Re: 3.0 injectors not firing
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2011, 04:04:07 PM »
I thought you said it wasnt getting fuel?
It has fuel and fuel pressure.  The problem is the injectors aren't opening(getting pulsed signal).  
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Re: 3.0 injectors not firing
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2011, 04:05:28 PM »
Well, what if the injector is bad?
Dr.Maxwe001 – well i have a 15 gal compressor now and if I gett he 60  and then use the 15 as a reserve that wil give me 75 gal  thats close to 80 isnt it ?

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Re: 3.0 injectors not firing
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2011, 04:10:03 PM »
if the injector was bad, wouldn't it still at least try to run or run really rough?  with the test light in the injector plug and the engine cranking, it keeps constant(+) power.  no (-) signal to open it.  i'm 99.99% sure its not a bad injector. 
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