Author Topic: Building the 20r/22r hybrid!  (Read 16627 times)

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82 HiLux

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Building the 20r/22r hybrid!
« on: October 17, 2010, 03:38:34 PM »
 :headscratch:
I have a 82 22r block and a 78 20r celica head.  I know how to put it together, ive searched and read the threads.  The 22r motor has a stock bottom end (bored 0.30 over) with less than 20k on it, weber 38, offenhauser dual plane intake manifold, dual valve springs, .515 lift cam, adjustable cam gear, racing distributor, MSD ignition and coil and wires, and a header going into 2.5" eshaust.  All smog parts have been taken off and thrown away.  The only vacuum lines are to the PCV and the brake booster.

ANYWAYS...Im trying to decide if I should..

Use the 22r head that was already on the motor and put bigger valves in it (it has stock size right now) and possibly polish the ports.
or
Use the 20r head I got off of the mentioned celica, get a 20r intake manifold, larger valves, and possibly polish the ports.

It looks like the 22r head would flow way better than the 20r head. But maybe my eyes decieve me?

I need opinions!! thanks people :beerchug:
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 08:13:41 PM by 82 HiLux »
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

81_yota

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i did research with same idea in mind and found with 20r there is pluses but with a nice port polished 22r u can get better then a 20r head but all comes down to is how do u want the power what rpms u want it at

82 HiLux [OP]

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22r head with dual valve springs and the 22r lower end



22r block to be used



offy intake



20r head off of the celica



my truck
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

79coyotefrg

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:headscratch:
I have a 82 22r block and a 78 20r celica head.  I know how to put it together, ive searched and read the threads.  The 22r motor has a stock bottom end (bored 0.30 over) with less than 20k on it, weber 38, offenhauser dual plane intake manifold, dual valve springs, .515 lift cam, adjustable cam gear, racing distributor, MSD ignition and coil and wires, and a header going into 2.5" eshaust.  All smog parts have been taken off and thrown away.  The only vacuum lines are to the PCV and the brake booster.

ANYWAYS...Im trying to decide if I should..

Use the 22r head that was already on the motor and put bigger valves in it (it has stock size right now) and possibly polish the ports.
or
Use the 20r head I got off of the mentioned celica, get a 20r intake manifold, larger valves, and possibly polish the ports.

It looks like the 22r head would flow way better than the 20r head. But maybe my eyes decieve me?

I need opinions!! thanks people :beerchug:
:haha:  your eyes deceive you :yesnod:

the stock 20R head will out perform a mildly ported 22R head every day of the week.  the 20R head flows better its as simple as that.


i did research with same idea in mind and found with 20r there is pluses but with a nice port polished 22r u can get better then a 20r head but all comes down to is how do u want the power what rpms u want it at
not sure where you researched but i speak from direct hands on experience.  not only does the 20R head pump the compression ratio up a few points but it flows MUCH better.

the 22R has a swirl inducing design that was designed that way to improve emissions.  all the porting in the world wont change that.  sure when ported it will perform well but it will never perform like a 20/22 hybrid.

now drop 22R valves into a 20R head with all the other goodies the OP has listed and you will push around 180 hp
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

82 HiLux [OP]

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before this rebuild it was pushing about 140hp & 180ft/lbs of torque.  After this Im hoping for close to 180hp & 200+ft/lbs of torque.
As far as the valves go, Im either going to put in TOYOTA valves or oversize aftermarket valves/seats.  Also adding a crank scraper, new oil pump, toyota headgasket, and ARP head studs.

I saw that swirl port design on the 22r head when I pulled it off the motor.  Im not worried about emissions...it doesnt get smogged ever.  and I want it to be a race motor like it was before, but way faster.

oh yeah, and Ive got a .515" lift cam and STOCK pistons, decked block and cylinder head, and the valves dont hit the piston!  :therethere:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

79coyotefrg

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just be careful not to deck more than is needed to clean up the surface.

i would personally choose stock 22R valves and valve seats installed in the 20R head.

and yes  you WILL get your race engine :thumbs:

AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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I love the 20r.  I have driven both in similar trucks and in stock form the 20r has WAY more drivability and torque in the right places.  I would absolutely use the 20r head...
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I too have run the hybrid set up in my 80' loved it.
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82 HiLux [OP]

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has anybody tried Total Seal gapless piston rings? They are supposed to increase HP and torque because of its superior sealing of the combustion in the cylinder. 

Is it worth it to get some die grinder bits and polish the 20r ports?

Here is my list of parts I need:

Refurbished rocker arms
Full perimeter crankshaft scraper
20r intake manifold
Main/Rod bearings
Gapless total seal piston rings
New timing cover
Full gasket set from toyota
Flywheel bolts
ARP cylinder head studs

machine shop work:

cylinder hone
block/timing cover & cylinder head decked
maybe install bigger valves
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

82 HiLux [OP]

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with the 20r head on my 22r motor, will I be able to use 22r aluminum rocker arms? or do I have to have the 20r steel ones?  I noticed the 22r/20r valves are different heights.  This is the only part about putting this motor together Im not sure about.  thanks for the help :hammerhead:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

2manytoys

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I have run the C&A gapless rings in a supercharged small block Chevy. I don't think it was worth the money, Those suckers are expensive!

I run file to fit rings now. Way cheaper and work fine. A few of my buds that have race cars don't think the zero gap rings are worth the expense either. Just my opinion. Others may disagree.

I think porting is always a good thing if you don't over do it. Blend the bowls and gasket match the port openings. Tons of info out there on how to do it.
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has anybody tried Total Seal gapless piston rings? They are supposed to increase HP and torque because of its superior sealing of the combustion in the cylinder. 

Is it worth it to get some die grinder bits and polish the 20r ports?
   YES, especially the exhaust side, i would gasket match the exhaust ports to the header and where those little smog tubes are, remove the tubes tap the holes and install allen head plugs
Here is my list of parts I need:

Refurbished rocker arms   
Full perimeter crankshaft scraper --- :thumbs: 
20r intake manifold               --- gasket match to the head
Main/Rod bearings               ----   Clevite is best
Gapless total seal piston rings    ----  if you can get them at a good price but not worth alot more $
New timing cover   
Full gasket set from toyota   
Flywheel bolts
ARP cylinder head studs

machine shop work:

cylinder hone         
block/timing cover & cylinder head decked     -- dont deck more than needed to get smooth
maybe install bigger valves ----------  use stock 22R valves and valve seats in the 20R head


with the 20r head on my 22r motor, will I be able to use 22r aluminum rocker arms? or do I have to have the 20r steel ones?  I noticed the 22r/20r valves are different heights.  This is the only part about putting this motor together Im not sure about.  thanks for the help :hammerhead:
with the hi lift cam you have the 22R rockers will be perfect, the oiling holes in the 22R rockers line up best with the 22R valves.  If i remember correctly i ended up using the 20R rocker shafts with 22R rockers.  i spent a LOT of time making sure my cam was well oiled :thumbs:

AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

79coyotefrg

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I have run the C&A gapless rings in a supercharged small block Chevy. I don't think it was worth the money, Those suckers are expensive!

I run file to fit rings now. Way cheaper and work fine. A few of my buds that have race cars don't think the zero gap rings are worth the expense either. Just my opinion. Others may disagree.

I think porting is always a good thing if you don't over do it. Blend the bowls and gasket match the port openings. Tons of info out there on how to do it.
:werd:   
BUT  the bowls on a 20R head are almost perfectly blended from the factory this is why the 20R head is so efficient :thumbs:
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

82 HiLux [OP]

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Re: 20r/22r opinions... building the top end
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2010, 05:56:32 PM »
Im excited to get this together. I hate not being able to drive my truck! I started ordering parts and im going to take the motor to the machine shop on monday.  I mocked up my new design, and Im going to use 22r valves&seats, 22r aluminum rockers, 22r cam, 22r dual valve springs w/chromoly retainers, and everything else I mentioned earlier.  It looks like everything will work properly. Im trying to hunt down a set of toyota 22r valves and seats.  Ive got a set of those valves somewhere but I cant find them. 
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

mkyhmltn

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Where you located? I have a complete decent running 20R in my truck that I am replacing. I am in Clarksville TN and am only home for R&R so don't really want to deal with shipping, but if you are close I will hook you up with whatever you need for cheap.

81_yota

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only reason i said no to it was i called up lc eng and they said that there 22r head would out perform a 20r hybrid so yeah but its best to hear what ppl are using and i say if it kicks use it

79coyotefrg

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only reason i said no to it was i called up lc eng and they said that there 22r head would out perform a 20r hybrid so yeah but its best to hear what ppl are using and i say if it kicks use it
i'd bet 50 bucks the reason the salesman told you that is because they had 22R heads on the shelves and no 20R heads.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

81_yota

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very possible

82 HiLux [OP]

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Re: 20r/22r build.. QUESTION about head gasket
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2010, 03:44:57 PM »
My motor is a 22r with a 20r head. 

Do I use a 22r head gasket or a 20r head gasket?  :headscratch:
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

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Re: 20r/22r opinions ????? help making a decision please!
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2010, 10:12:57 PM »
get a 22R hg I personally like Rockproducts.com  but toyota oem is just as good.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 20r/22r opinions ????? help making a decision please!
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2010, 10:47:08 PM »
sounds like an awesome build, I wanna know how it turns out... and now I have to google those gapless rings (honestly those could possibly help with emissions some day on newer cars?)
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82 HiLux [OP]

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Re: 20r/22r opinions ????? help making a decision please!
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2010, 06:48:07 PM »
I ended up just using the piston rings the machine shop got...I couldnt afford the gapless total seals.  The cylinders also ended up getting bored another .010 over, making a total of .030 over.  Its gonna have: brand new 22r valves installed in my 20r cylinder head, Im going to do a gasket match port, & polish the intake/exhaust ports inside the 20r head, brand new set of rocker arms & shafts & screws, dual valve springs, LCE .515 lift cam, adjustable cam gear, racing distributor, MSD coil & 6A ignition box, crankshaft scraper, brand new timing cover, weber 38dgas (390CFM) carburetor w/20r intake manifold, and a header. A lot of that stuff I had before this rebuild.  Thats everything I can remember right now that it will have this time around.  I got the gasket set from toyota, and now I just need a set of bearings for the main crankshaft journals that have the notches in the right spot.  I have a brand new set and the notches dont line up right! Also I need a 20r intake manifold.  When I get it running Ill post videos, because I can take awesome videos with my iphone.
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

82 HiLux [OP]

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Re: 20r/22r opinions ????? help making a decision please!
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2010, 06:49:23 PM »
Im hoping the horsepower jumps from 135 to 160-170.  Torque will probably go from 180 to maybe ~220.
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

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Re: 20r/22r opinions ????? help making a decision please!
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2010, 10:54:37 PM »
Interesting, hopefully it pans out for you.  I'm actually getting to the point of wanting to build an r series engine to build as much torque as possible, but that's probably way further out, plus I'd likely be money ahead to just install my buick 231.
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Re: 20r/22r opinions ????? help making a decision please!
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2010, 09:39:32 AM »
are these LCE dual valve springs??  what duration is the cam??  and make damn sure you have the machine shop (or do it yourself) check for valve to piston clearance.  you need a minimum or .090 between valve and piston.

ive always used clay to check this.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 20r/22r opinions ????? help making a decision please!
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 04:40:25 AM »
Two others have suggested this, but I don't want to see it lost in the mix.  Be sure to gasket-match the intake manifold and head ports.  I've seen them off by almost 1/8" with all ports in different directions.

Why new rockers, that cam is broken in fine with the old ones right?

82 HiLux [OP]

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Re: Building the 20r/22r hybrid!
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2010, 08:28:35 PM »
I know about piston to valve clearance. And yes they are LCE springs. My old rocker arms were toast. You could hear them when the motor was running. The rockers had flat spots on the cam pads. The cam looks great after polishing it.  The duration isn't too high, the cam has power from 1500-6000. It has tons of lift.
I said in an earlier post that I'm going to do a gasket match. Everything is going to be perfect. 
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

82 HiLux [OP]

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Re: Building the 20r/22r hybrid!
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2010, 08:34:29 PM »
I have a manifold now. All I need is bearings for the main crank journals!
http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=32513.0

82 hilux, bobbed, really fast 22r, 2 transfer cases, toyota 5.29 axles with arb's,  37x15" MTRs, 3" of lift, 14" bilsteins, bumpstops, leadfootitis

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Re: Building the 20r/22r hybrid!
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2010, 11:31:15 AM »
:popcorn:





:worthless:
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: Building the 20r/22r hybrid!
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 06:06:05 PM »
I'm glad to hear you guys talking up the 20r head on 22r blocks, I have had a few mechanic friends tell me the power gain is minimal, don't bother doing it. I have a 20r head I had built with 22r valves and all decked up, and LC low end cam. Just got to finish rebuilding the block.

 
 
 
 
 

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