Author Topic: Winch motor to York compressor build  (Read 37558 times)

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Phazertwo

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Winch motor to York compressor build
« on: Dec 29, 2009, 03:40:13 PM »
So this all stems from this thread.

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=63354.0

This is my Oasis style build.



I believe that the motor is from a Ramsey winch, tho I am not sure,it was just the cheapest one that I could find w/ a front cover.


This is a coupler that I bought from McMastercarr.
The mcmastercarr part numbers for the coupler are:
6408K77 for the spider
6408K273 for the 1  3/16" hub
6408K166 For the 3/4" hub



Here is my bracket that I whiped up for it, with the York and motor mounted to it.




This configuration does not work.  This thing draws a Metric :pokinit: ton of ams, enough that the jumper cables I was using to try it. I tried shorter cables, which helped a surprising amount, but still no go.  The York is just lugging the motor down too far.  The motor needs to spin up to the higher RPMs to lower the amp draw.

I will get some pics of the amp clamp, and the tach.  With actual numbers this will make way more sense.

PZ
« Last Edit: Jan 03, 2010, 07:22:17 PM by Phazertwo »
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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #1 on: Dec 29, 2009, 09:07:13 PM »
Ok, so I couldn't find my optical tach, and I only had 8 gauge jumper cables, and it needs at least 4 gauge.  So it didn't run tonight.  Hopefully before the end of the week it will.  Once again the ONLY reason that I want to run it is to get numbers.  It WILL NOT work in this configuration!

However, I am not sure how to build this any more.
As you can see from the above picture, there is a bushing, not a bearing on the output of the motor.  This thing would not last too long with a side load on it (say from a pulley system).

Here is what I had planed on doing to lower the amp draw.



So, now I am looking for a new motor.  I would like to find one that can run direct drive (motor straight into the York) to simplify the brackets needed. So if you know of a motor that would work for this, please let me know!

PZ
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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #2 on: Dec 29, 2009, 10:12:22 PM »
 :turtle2:
Precision guess work done here.

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #3 on: Dec 30, 2009, 07:40:23 AM »
You're going to have to get deep into electric motor tech. They can be built to suit different powerbands just like ICE's, in fact they are more versatile. Obviously you need something with more low end, but you know this. Are you sure that the coupler is not binding at all? That would cause the motor to draw more than it should for sure. In the other thread you said that the motor was spinning at 7k RPM, that seems like overkill, on most cars the a/c compressor is underdriven, they only need about 1500 rpm to work good. I think direct drive is the way to go, just need to find a slower motor if you ask me.

You seem to be pretty good at sourcing stuff, good job!

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #4 on: Dec 30, 2009, 09:25:47 AM »
Here's some pictures of what an Oasis looks like












It's funny to find some great tech threads about Oasis compressors on all the lowrider and slammed mini truck forum boards yO!

http://www.layitlow.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166302&st=0

This guy has built his own using the same motor they use in the Oasis Extreme XD2000. This site has that motor for $331

The same site has some 12v winch motors for $100, which I would think as well.  They have a replacement Warn winch motor for $130.


Also great tech thread on the guys that are into big ass air horns, man, there is a forum board for every hobby you can think of!!!   :greengrin:

http://www.hornwhistleboard.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=738

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Dan The Man

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #5 on: Dec 30, 2009, 03:52:48 PM »
I found that same thread this morning. It does have a lot of info, however the guy never tests his setup in that thread. You have to go here...

http://www.hornwhistleboard.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1718&start=0

...to see the payoff. It looks really good and apparently it worked out for him.

Also, the last pic you have is of his original setup and they are using that $331 motor in that pic and it didn't work so well. The one that he is using now is more like the $750 motor in your link. Below are pics of his setup now.
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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #6 on: Dec 30, 2009, 06:31:38 PM »
You're going to have to get deep into electric motor tech. They can be built to suit different powerbands just like ICE's, in fact they are more versatile. Obviously you need something with more low end, but you know this. Are you sure that the coupler is not binding at all? That would cause the motor to draw more than it should for sure. In the other thread you said that the motor was spinning at 7k RPM, that seems like overkill, on most cars the a/c compressor is underdriven, they only need about 1500 rpm to work good. I think direct drive is the way to go, just need to find a slower motor if you ask me.

You seem to be pretty good at sourcing stuff, good job!

I am pretty sure the coupler is not binding, I can spin it by hand freely.  And I believe that the motor will do 7k RPM free wheeling. I seem to remember it turned less than 100RPM when it was hooked to the York.

Direct drive is for sure the way to go, but I think its just going to be to much $$$.  I want to make this cheaper.

I suppose $200 on the motor wouldn't be to bad, I could even understand $300, IF I knew it worked.  Dropping $300 on a DC motor that may not work leaves me with a really good chance of getting a blinged out new boat anchor!

I am liking the input here guys, keep it coming!

PZ
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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #7 on: Dec 30, 2009, 06:32:19 PM »
FYI I also have a open face winch motor, for some reason, if anyone needs it....
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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #8 on: Dec 30, 2009, 07:21:40 PM »
 :bowdown:

This is awesome, keep going please. I've always wanted an Oasis compressor but never wanted to pay $900 bucks for them.

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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #9 on: Dec 30, 2009, 07:40:57 PM »
http://www.hornwhistleboard.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1718&start=0

This is a very interesting read. Says he uses a "140-01-4002A" motor, but he nor I can find any specs. Looks like he gets it off of ebay.

Here
http://www.hornwhistleboard.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=738

He says its the same as "140-01-4005" which I can find, but it says its a 24-48V compressor.  He says the only difference is the output shaft. I am not sure this motor would run on 12V or not, I wish I could find the specs on his current motor, which he says is good for 12v or 24V.

Here is a dude from Oasis. He is actually helping people build their oasis style compressors!

Quote from: danh@oasismfg.com

We already do that (I know you've heard it before...LOL) but Adam looks like he's using a 20 gallon tank instead of 10 but it still looks very much like ours.

I'm waiting to hear about its performance and what Adam thinks about it.

Adam, it looks really good, nice job!

He is actually in quite a few threads, helping people!

PZ
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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #10 on: Dec 30, 2009, 09:14:08 PM »
I've always wanted an Oasis compressor but never wanted to pay $900 bucks for them.
Where did you see them for $900? I saw them for $1500 when I searched online! :shocking:

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #11 on: Dec 31, 2009, 09:13:27 AM »
Where did you see them for $900? I saw them for $1500 when I searched online! :shocking:

 :rofl2:    Holy crap.  I dont remember , I may have been smoking an illegal substance.  :dunno: Ok I wrong, leave me alone already!!!
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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #12 on: Dec 31, 2009, 10:05:22 AM »
Quote from: danh@oasismfg.com
Make it easy on yourself and get a motor at the same voltage as your vehicle. I would think the the golf shop should know what voltage they use.

If the motor has about 3.5 HP and turns approximately 1500 to 1800 RPM, it should handle the york at 200 PSI without slowing down.

Be leary of turning the pump faster than that or it might eventually starve the bearings of oil depending on how long it runs continuously.

Interesting.  However, looks like these motors are well out of my price range, and I still can't find one that says its good at 12v. At this point I am assuming that these guys are just running them at 12v when they are rated at 24v and 48v.  I am not so good with the electricity side of things, it is part of my Mechanical course outline at school to take one Electrical course. Maybe I will have to take mine next fall, however this really makes me wanna double major!

So to me it seems that if you take a 24v motor and run it with 12v its going to draw twice as many amps to get the job done.  Same sorta deal as the difference between 110v and 220v AC? That is not so much an issue, as long as the amp draw stays bellow 200, and even better if it stays below 150.

Let me know if I am  :bandit:!

PZ
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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #13 on: Dec 31, 2009, 11:25:19 AM »
Quote from: danh@oasismfg.com
Make it easy on yourself and get a motor at the same voltage as your vehicle. I would think the the golf shop should know what voltage they use.

If the motor has about 3.5 HP and turns approximately 1500 to 1800 RPM, it should handle the york at 200 PSI without slowing down.

Be leary of turning the pump faster than that or it might eventually starve the bearings of oil depending on how long it runs continuously.

With that comment, that would lead me to believe that a 4.5hp winch motor that turns at 2100rpm would work perfect for this type of application (just like your first build at the top of this thread).  Is your York in good shape?  Is it hard to turn by hand?  How tight does that coupler fit together?  Any slop that would lead to misalignment?  Your first build looks solid and that was the direction I was headed before you said you had issues.  Do you think a different coupler like the Oasis unit has would make it work better?

I was kinda of thinking of making some gears to fit the motor & the york to get the york to spin faster than 2100rpm and allow the motor to work less by gear reduction.  I would just have to make sure it was full of oil every time I used it and put some type of oil filter on the output since the Yorks tend to spit out oil at higher rpms.
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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Oasis style compressor build
« Reply #14 on: Dec 31, 2009, 11:39:22 AM »
With that comment, that would lead me to believe that a 4.5hp winch motor that turns at 2100rpm would work perfect for this type of application (just like your first build at the top of this thread).  Is your York in good shape?  Is it hard to turn by hand?  How tight does that coupler fit together?  Any slop that would lead to misalignment?  Your first build looks solid and that was the direction I was headed before you said you had issues.  Do you think a different coupler like the Oasis unit has would make it work better?

I was kinda of thinking of making some gears to fit the motor & the york to get the york to spin faster than 2100rpm and allow the motor to work less by gear reduction.  I would just have to make sure it was full of oil every time I used it and put some type of oil filter on the output since the Yorks tend to spit out oil at higher rpms.

You would really think.  I think that 2100RPM is the sweet spot for that motor, but it can, and will spin MUCH faster than that.  Also, the motor is rated at 4.5hp PEAK. I have no idea what it can do continuous, but if I had to guess I would say maybe 1HP contentious, but DON'T quote me on that, because I really have no idea.

My York seems to be in great shape.  I made my bracket with less .002 error. I can stick my hand in there and twist the coupler with little more effort than just the York.  I have come to the conclusion that this motor just does not have the power to run a York DD.  I am attempting the v-belt reduction soon.  I just still need to get the thing running in its current configurations, so I know if I am gaining or loosing anything!

Bottom line, I really need to test the POS!

PZ
« Last Edit: Jan 03, 2010, 07:40:20 PM by Phazertwo »
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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #15 on: Jan 03, 2010, 07:40:02 PM »
Ok, so Rock Ranger swung by today to help me get this thing tested. After all he is the only one I know with a DC amp clamp, and 2 gauge jumper cables that are 4 feet long!  :yupyup:

The one thing we know for sure is that SIZE MATTERS! and don't let her tell you anything else!! Small cables just WILL NOT get the job done.

Case in point:  On this motor you have to connect two of the posts together, than connect the positive to the remaining post, and the ground to the case, from what I under stand standard winch wiring.  Last time we used 8 gauge jumper cables as the "jumper" from one post to another.  THAT WAS OUR MISTAKE!!! This time we used a actual piece of 4 gauge wire that was only 8in long and bolted to the posts. Look at these numbers!

RPM


Over last time, that was a HUGE difference.  This thing did not seem under powered at all! It didn't even slow down when we stuck a finger over the out put.

Here is the bad.
Amp draw with NO LOAD!  :shocking:


And voltage as measure from the posts on the motor  :yikes:


Looks to me that we are seeing HUGE line loss.  We have decided that before we go any further we need to get real connections on the posts.  Clamping to them with a jumper cable is just losing TOO much power!  Or next test will be with a solenoid, and all wires properly crimped, and bolted to minimize all line loss.  We will also start testing with a yellow top optima that is fully charged, with fittings bolted to it.  This will be our poor mans "benchmark".

We are getting stoked about how this thing may work out!   :crossed:

PZ
« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2010, 12:29:42 PM by Phazertwo »
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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #16 on: Jan 03, 2010, 10:50:23 PM »
AWESOME!!!!

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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #17 on: Jan 03, 2010, 11:05:05 PM »
Flipped the Tach. pics, easier to read...
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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #18 on: Jan 04, 2010, 08:31:34 AM »
Good info. So if you can eliminate the voltage drop it should pull less amps, correct?

Also, I don't understand your first and second round RPM readings...is that with the york connected or not?
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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #19 on: Jan 04, 2010, 08:51:52 AM »
Also, I don't understand your first and second round RPM readings...is that with the york connected or not?

The difference between 8 & 4 gauge wire on the motor. 

Nice testing!  So it does look like the motor will power the York, that's awesome news.  I'm guessing that stepping up to some 4 gauge wiring and using a solenoid will help with that voltage drop.
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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #20 on: Jan 04, 2010, 10:54:37 AM »
I could be WAY out in left field here but have you considered a gear reduction starter?  I found a website with some example specs. here: http://www.aptfast.com/APT_Parts/Starters/gear_reduction_starters.htm

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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #21 on: Jan 04, 2010, 12:32:13 PM »
Good info. So if you can eliminate the voltage drop it should pull less amps, correct?

Also, I don't understand your first and second round RPM readings...is that with the york connected or not?

Sorry it was simply two different times that I ran the whole assembly. I took down one, so there is less confusion, the difference was minimal.

And yes, the voltage goes up, the amps should go down.

The difference between 8 & 4 gauge wire on the motor.  

Nice testing!  So it does look like the motor will power the York, that's awesome news.  I'm guessing that stepping up to some 4 gauge wiring and using a solenoid will help with that voltage drop.

Good guess, but it was just two different reading.

PZ
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Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #22 on: Jan 04, 2010, 12:33:55 PM »
I could be WAY out in left field here but have you considered a gear reduction starter?  I found a website with some example specs. here: http://www.aptfast.com/APT_Parts/Starters/gear_reduction_starters.htm



Good idea to get the torque and RPMS that we need. However starters are designed to run for 30 seconds a few times a day. They do not have the duty cycle that you need in a compressor. You would be replacing the starter all the time.  That is why I went with a winch motor.

PZ
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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #23 on: Jan 05, 2010, 05:19:25 AM »
Please DO NOT PM ME with questions about this compressor. I have no problem answering questions, please just post them here so that all can see!
PZ
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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #24 on: Jan 20, 2010, 07:22:22 AM »
Just another thread on Pirate about a starter powered York compressor for ideas.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=818352

Might be worth to try a starter motor!  Cheaper than a winch motor.  I wonder how loud that chain drive is?
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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #25 on: Jan 20, 2010, 11:54:34 AM »
Article looks good.  Gives me more hope for a starter motor.  He says that he ran it for one year with no problems.  If he runs it every weekend to air up 40's thats awesome! However if he airs up 35's once a month thats nothing.

I like the start motor build using the SBC starter. However, I am trying really really hard to stay away from the starter motor. I just don't think that they have the duty cycle that I am looking for out of this thing. I could be wrong, but I think a winch motor is going to work MUCH better!

 I got my 200amp continuous duty relay a few days ago. I have simply been a whole new level of busy with the flooring in my house (99% done!) and school starting, along with more responsibility at work. As of right now (sitting in the student lounge on campus) it looks like Monday and Wednesday will be my days for getting crap done on my truck and this compressor. I will try to get some pics tonight, and maybe get the damn thing to run with the relay!

 PZ
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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #26 on: Jan 20, 2010, 01:52:42 PM »
I think a Nippondenso starter could handle the load no problem. I've seen people drive their Toyotas a mile (literally) on the starter and the starter takes it like a champ. They get smokin hot after a workout like that but will keep working great after that. The truck engine is basically a big compressor, a wayyyy bigger load than a york. I think the decreased load work help to extrend the duty cycle, at least theoretically. I don't disagree with what you're saying about the duty cycle, I just think that like everything else on a Toy, the starter is overbuilt and up to the task of some serious abuse. I do not recommend using the starter off of a chevy, delco stuff sucks balls. Put it this way, when you order a fancy gear reduction starter for a high compression big block performance motor from Summit or Jeg's, do they give you a Delco? Nope, you get a starter from a Nissan 240z with an adapter plate.

-Jake-

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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #27 on: Jan 21, 2010, 08:08:29 PM »
yeah being gear reduction running a york compressor it'd be just like free-wheeling for it compared to cranking an engine I would think.  Add a 5 gallon tank and I think you'd be set.  If nothing else buy lifetime guaratee starters from napa and everytime your burn one up take it back for your free replacement :)
81 Hilux, E-Lockers, 5.29s, Duals, 30 spline Longfields, 8274 Warn, 40" Iroks, F150s and RUF

Phazertwo [OP]

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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #28 on: Feb 03, 2010, 10:14:26 AM »
Wow how tonight can turn into over a week!!

yeah being gear reduction running a york compressor it'd be just like free-wheeling for it compared to cranking an engine I would think.  Add a 5 gallon tank and I think you'd be set.  If nothing else buy lifetime guaratee starters from napa and everytime your burn one up take it back for your free replacement :)

You must consider the HUGE gear reduction that the starter has on the motor.  I have no idea what the actual ratio is between the starter gear and the fly wheel (nor am I going to count the teeth on my fly wheel!) but its got to be upwards of 10:1!  Than remember that that is multiplied by any reduction inside the starter! (kinda like figuring overall crawl ratio)  So say its a 2:1 inside and a 8:1 from the starter to the fly wheel, thats 16:1! Thats HUGE reduction! 

However I do like the lifetime warranty deal.  If the motor is simple to replace (which I think will depend more on the mounting than the design of the bracket) than thats a real option.

I need to get off my ass and do something with this compressor.  I have given my self a dead line of getting it done before I go to Moab for spring break. I leave March 19th. However, I have lots of fixing left to do to my truck!

PZ
92 xtra cab, with some stuff...

...why buy when you can build?

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Re: Winch motor to York compressor build
« Reply #29 on: Feb 17, 2010, 05:34:42 PM »
bump for updates  :biggthumpup:
81 Hilux, E-Lockers, 5.29s, Duals, 30 spline Longfields, 8274 Warn, 40" Iroks, F150s and RUF

 
 
 
 
 

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