Author Topic: HELP !?! - Bearing in drivetrain going out???  (Read 10100 times)

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4RnrRick

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HELP !?! - Bearing in drivetrain going out???
« on: Apr 07, 2004, 07:48:47 PM »
Kinda long but I need some help........Marlin are you out there tonight????

Okay, just discovered that I have a really bad noise coming from the drivetrain. I knew I had a strange noise but I'm in the process of cutting my tunnel up and liftin gmy drive train so I took it for a test drive to ckeck my clearences when I heard this strange noise.

It sounds like a whirling, howling, rapping noise. You really start noticing it once you get up to about 25 mph. and it gets worse if you let off the throttle. the noise goes away if you push the clutch in.

Heres my specs,85 4runner, 22RE, W56, 2.28 in front case, MC05 adapter, marlin 4.7 in rear case.

So this is what I tried:

1. Removed transfercase ebrake and drove the rig.
Still have the noise.

2. removed rear driveline. U-Joints feel good. drove rig in fwd with hubs locked. still hear noise but hard to tell if its the front square shaft or just the noise.

3. parked rig hubs unlocked, no rear driveline and started it in 1st gear, high, 2wd high. not noise but drivetrain turning slowly. since the rear shoft is off I can driveway test it this way without dealing with road noise.

4. then I shift up through the gears ans I can start hearing it in 3rd, high, 2wd high. 5th gear , high, 2wd high makes the most noise. and this it at an idle up to 4000 rpm in 5th I'm talking about.

5. then I try shifting the transfer case in all combination ans basically the faster I spin the drivetrain the loader the noise.

6. So now I'm at idle back in 5th gear, high , 2wd high and I push the clutch in - noise goes away.

7. So now I'm at idle back in 5th gear, high , 2wd high and I shift the tranny into neutral and the noise goes away.

8. So now I'm at idle back in 5th gear, high , 2wd high and I shift the 2.28 forward case into neutral and the noise goes away.

9. So now I'm at idle back in 5th gear, high , 2wd high and I shift the 4.7 rear case into neutral (have to use the clutch on that one since I still have the front shaft connected and I still hear the noise.

So heres the question, is it a bearing or a gear and which one do you think it is?????

I pretty much know I have to take teh b*std apart but I would like to know where to look so I don't have to tear EVERYTHING apart!!!

Please help....

Any ideas are great appreicated..... and thanks in advance.


yotaboy79

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sounds like a bearing to me, hope that helps :dunno:

4RnrRick [OP]

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Any idea where???????

And has anyone else had this problem??????

brainlessfool

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well from you dis. heres my best geass. it's in you front box. more likey its a bearing on the out put side of the front box. just my geass from your discription. :dunno: remember I'm no Marlin, just a brainlessfool :hammer:

if by some chance thats what it truns out to be...... give me some points!!!!! :eyebrow:
« Last Edit: Apr 07, 2004, 08:22:24 PM by brainlessfool »
A good day working, that's just sick :reg:

Brandon

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tough to diagnose that one from words although you did give a lot of em  :thumbs:

I'd jack the rear two wheels up and put them on SOLID jack stands, then start it in first gear low range and check to see if you can hear it from outside. I once had the flange over the yoke at the rear of the third member do something like that, drove me nuts!

Check all your fluids, the putting in the cluth and making it go away means it is something in your drivetrain so that is why I'd say put it on stands and see what ya find.

Good luck..
Brandon Miller
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www.RiverCityRockCrawlers.com

4RnrRick [OP]

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I was doing most of my testing in my driveway with the rear shaft removed so I could just run it up through the gears so I didn't need to jack stand it. I also have a hole in the floor (drive train lift on a 4runner with dual cases) so I could see that nothing was hitting the floorboards......




Okay I drained the transfer case and pulled the rear most 7 bolt flange off so I could look inside. every looks okay and the fluid was clean but the magnet id have a few small flakes of metal on it. I also pulled off the speedo drive, oil pump and the rear most bearing and that also felt smooth.

So I guess tomorrow I'm going to pull every thing out.

I'm still open to any ideas..............

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From that description Id wager its 5th gear.  My W56 does the same thing and if memory serves that is what you have for a trans correct?  I still havent finished the tunnel on my 81 and it sounds like we have the same issue, a bad gear.  Just a thought do we win a prize if we get the answer correct?  lol  Good luck with this one I know how much trouble it is to hunt these things down. :(
WT
Full hydro, 186:1 with an auto and 44's what could go wrong??

4RnrRick [OP]

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I really doubt its the tranny.......

Let me try to explain again. I had the front driveline connected so I could drive the rig. but I had the rear removed so in 2wd I would go nowhere. so in 2wd I could run it up though the gear on the tranny or run it down thru the gears in the transfer cases while I was listening. also remember I got a hole cut in my floor board so I could also listen and feel everything. Heck I got most of the interior out and only the drivers seatinthe rig with both doors removed..... Anyways at idle I would hear the noise from about 3rd gear, high, high to 5th gear, high, high. Thats because the drivetrain is spinning the fastest in those gears, hence producing the most noise. and remember I'm doing thi is the driveway. I even drove it over to a buddies house in fwd to see if he could pin point it. my buddy things it a gear noise but I think its a bearing noise.

So if I push the clutch in the noise goes away.........

If I shift the tranny into neutral, the noise goes away.......

If I shift the front case into neutral, the noise goes away......Hence everything in the tranny is stilll spinning so it not the tranny making the noise.

If I shift the rear case into neutral, I still have the noise....

So I guess that means the noise is coming from somewhere between the front case shift collar to the rear case shift collar.... Am I correct on that?? Sounds right.

Also do your low range gears alway spin even though they are not engaged?? Can't remember how the shift collar works...


Oh, I also tryed the stethoscope trick. Problem is that I don't have a mechanics stethoscope so I used a long screw driver held up to by ear. the farther back I got the louder it got but I couldn't pin point it. I think its somewhere from the dual case adapter back.



brainlessfool

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well I'm still going for the front case , output side. that would not make noise in "N" . my.02 let us know! :beerchug:
A good day working, that's just sick :reg:

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Ok rick I see what you mean now I read your post but I kept coming back to the noise in 5th gear.  I wonder if its could be the Mco5?  A buddy has one and it squeals when engaged and whines when not engaged.  I hope ya get it figured out before you tear it all apart.
WT
Full hydro, 186:1 with an auto and 44's what could go wrong??

4RnrRick [OP]

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I called up Marlin Crawler at lunch and talked to Dave. He seems to think that I'm just hearing more of the drivetrain noises now that there is a hole in the floor board and I have the interior removed... I'm still not sure about that. I understand that I'm going to hear more now then before but it just doesn't like normal to me......

4RnrRick [OP]

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Well Just got back from Pete's.

His Rig specs: 81 22R, L45 4speed, 2.28 front case, MC05, 2.28 rear case.

I removed his rear drive shaft. Blocked his tires. And fired it up and ran it through the gears in 2wd just like I have been doing with mine and his was quite!!!! No strange sounds at all. I then even tried using the stethiscope trick and every thing sounded normal. So that means the sounds I'm hearing (whirlly rattlling dry bearing type sound) is not normal and I'm going to have to tear it out and inspect everything!!!!     :mad:  :mad:  :mad:  :mad:

Anybody ever have this problem?????

yotaboy79

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did u feel any vibration at all, and which case was there a small amount of meatal shavings on the magnetic drain plug, im thinkin rear t-case out put bearing, i wouldent think that a small amout of meatal shavings would do that my tranny has a mother load of shavings  and its not makin noise but its starting to get a slight vibration, but my guess is that its the out put on the rear t-case :dunno: :_order: :biggthumpup:

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Hey Rick, The first thing you should do is seal the floor with some shifter boots. Next, even though you don't have vibrations you should run a CV on the rear. I spoke with Marlin and he said to check this drop the t-case ( from the position you last drove the truck with the rear shaft connected ) about 1-3/4". We stick a piece of 2x4 between the frame and crossmember ( us longer 3/8" bolts )to lower it down and check for drive shaft noise and vibs.
Taking back America, one part at a time! :madeinusa:

4RnrRick [OP]

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I guess I'm missing something here....... How can the driveline make this awful racket when its laying on the ground next to the rig ?? ?? ?? Remember I'm doing my test with the rear driveline removed from the rig and it still makes the noise.

I was hearing some noises before I even torn the 4runner down but just figured it was a u-joint starting to fail.

So I stipped everything down (no doors, no vinyl floor, no passenger seat) so I could cut the floor board. I also have skys crossmember so I can space it to ANY dimension I want. So I cut the floor where my transfer case dic brake would hit and lifted the transfer case 2 1/8". the rotor was about 1/2" away from the sheetmetal so I took it for a dirive to check my clearances due to the drivetriain moving around when you drive. and heard the noise at medium to high speeds (25+ mpg). and discuvered that it was definitaly not the rotor hitting anything and was something else.

Thought it was the ebrake rattling so I removed it and drove it again. still heard the noise.

Then I removed the rear shaft and drove it agian in fwd. well I still heard the noise over my square front shaft clanking around.

So then I parked it in my driveway and put it in 2wd and ran it thought the gears in my driveway with the rear driveline on the ground (not in the rig) and I can still hear the noise..... So tell me again how its my rear driveline?? ?? ??

I do understand that I'm getting close to the point of needing a CV rear shaft but my rig is really low slung. I measured a bone stock X-cab 85 and from the ground to the frame its 16 1/2" with about 28" dia tires. I'm running 36" IROKS and right now my ground to frame hieght is 24" (was 23" but I added a leaf to the rear pack) so (36-28)/2 is 4" of lift due to tires. so 24" - 16.5" - 4" = 3 1/2" of lift from stock now (was only 2 1/2"). Also I believe my rear axle has been moved back about 1" from stock. so with that said I'm really low slug and I believe that my flange difference was only 2 degrees..... but now after the drivetrain lift I think I'm nore around 4-5 degrees which is really pushing the std u-joint misalignment.

But again let me clearify that the rear shaft is removed so it can't affect anything.

Also I tested out my buddies rig (by removing the rear driveline in the same fashion) and running it up through the gears and did the sthoscope trick and there was not unusual sounds like mine is making.......

So can you help me out in determining the problem area or do you still think it my driveline?? ??
« Last Edit: Apr 09, 2004, 09:57:28 AM by 4RnrRick »

brainlessfool

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well I don't think it the drive line :psss:
A good day working, that's just sick :reg:

4RnrRick [OP]

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Just got off the phone with Marlin (after a long discussion) and he gave me most things to inspect once I get it removed. I'm planning on removing and dissassembling the case tonight so we will see what happens!

Thanks for you time Marlin.

Marlin

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Rick, it was great to have the opportunity to finally speak to you.
It may not be nice to say, but i know that 4RnrRick will find a way to figure it out.
Please keep us posted...........

I will be out of town this weekend. I am going to Paradice CA this weekend for my wife's aunt's 90 birthday.

Marlin
1980 Toyota - 1997 3RZ-FE 2.7l Engine, Turbo R151F 4.31:1, Triple Turbo Marlin Crawler Billet (2.28x4.70x4.70) = 1,148:1 Crawl Ratio, Marlin Crawler Twin Stick and Short Throw Shift Kits, 30mm H/D Output Shaft, High Angle Drive Lines, 5.29:1, ARBs, High Pinion Front, 25mm HD Billet High Steer Kit, 6 Pin Locking Hub Bodies, 86+ Wide Rear End, V6 3rd member, Chromolly Axles all around, 37" IROKs with Beadlocks, York onboard air - Rollbar air tank, Premier Power Welder, Marlin Crawler 4" USA-made Leaf Springs, Bilstein Shocks, et cetera....

4RnrRick [OP]

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First off I need to say my digital camers SUCKS at close up pictures so this is the best I could get out of my camera....

Tore it appart last night and heres some of the stuff I found. so far I really haven't found any real problems. Well at least I don't think so.

My oil clearance on the rear main shaft 4.7 gear set is .015" is that okay?
« Last Edit: Apr 10, 2004, 01:56:41 PM by 4RnrRick »

4RnrRick [OP]

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Some pictures of the gear faces.....

4RnrRick [OP]

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Found something interesting here.... three of the teeth have very small chips right on the edge of the gear teeth. also I noticed that most all of the 4.7 gears had sharp edges on the ends of the gear faces. Looks to be okay to me since the metal will have a tendency to "flow" in that direction across the gear face. my 2.28 gears ( front case and the ones I removed when I installed the 4.7's ) have HUGE burrs on them in these locations.

4RnrRick [OP]

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More pictures of the face of the teeth to show the current wear pattern.

4RnrRick [OP]

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And then this side of these teeth have little scars on the face of the teeth. appears that I have a scar on the average of every other tooth. but the angle I got this picture at you can see three conseutive teeth all have scars. ( its really hard to see the one in the middle since its right in the bright reflection of the tooth) The other part is that all these scars are at the same angle but are on different locations along the tooth face.

Thats all the pictures for now but still got more to take.... and I lot more thinking to find the problem (if there is one).
« Last Edit: Apr 10, 2004, 01:55:18 PM by 4RnrRick »

brainlessfool

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focus on the front box. lets see the out put side of the shaft. and the joining bearings.  :crossed:
A good day working, that's just sick :reg:

4RnrRick [OP]

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This is one area of consern for me. Several rollers of the needle bearing in the MC05 adapter had black staining on them. I would say there was probably 5 in a row and all on just one side of the roller. I actually took the picture with all of the bad parts showning but since my camera sucks so bad at close up you really can only see two bad rollers.

The second picture just shows some thick goop that I found which was kinda odd looking. no where else in teh case did I find anything like it. I would imagine that this is just the residue from when Marlin orignally assemblied the case.

4RnrRick [OP]

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Okay here is the burrs and the chips that I was talking about early on the 2.28 gears. again it just looks like this is real common for this type of helical tooth for the metal to "flow" off the edge of the tooth and then it flakes/chips off. the tooth face is nice and smooth so I really don't see a problem but I really don't like the idea of knowing these chipps can just flake off but I think that is just inherant to the design of these gears.....

4RnrRick [OP]

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Last picture. The 2.28 gears appear to have pretty heavy but smooth wear marks from the run quite design.

I spent hours trying to troubleshoot the noise and I determined that even with everything that I found nothing really was bad enough "in my opinoin" to cause the noise I was hearing from the test I was doing. 

I also wanted to say that I examined almost every bearing surface, gear face and seal surface in the cases and I found NO pitting or scalling. But right now the only areas that I'm still kinda concerned about is the oil clearance on the rearshaft (noted above), the condition of the needle roller bearing in the rear 4.7 gear set on the main shaft (didn't feel ike pressing the bearin goff to examine that and possible the black spots on the needle roller bearing in the MC05 adapter.

I would love to hear your guy's opinoins but for now I'm putting it back together and moving onto other things so I can make sure the rig is ready for the next wheeling trip. When I talked to Marlin Friday on the phone, he thought I probably wouldn't find anything but it really should be cracked open and checked out.

brainlessfool

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Well I do not like the looks of those stained bearings
 :.order:

think you sould show thoses pics to marlin before you put it back together.

its not "on" the gears, those chips are comin , happins when you grind them(oops)

agian I would not put breaing that look like that in anything. and if as you say the camia only showes
half then noway would i reuse'um ..DON'T DO IT :slap:
you'll just pull it apart again.
wait for marlin to see the pics and see what he thinks. for my .02 I dont like'um butt hey I'm a brainlessfool :screwy:
A good day working, that's just sick :reg:

4RnrRick [OP]

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But heres the kicker, the bearing that has the black stains on it is still spinning when the front case is in neutral but thats when the sound went away, so that means it can't be coming from that bearing..... Also the bearing surface on te gear set for that location was nice and smooth and looked brand new so thats why I wasn't too conerned about it. I'm kinkda leaning toward oil clearance in the first picture is too much and is allowing the gear to float around to much and rattle.

I wonder if I should put an additive into the case to quite it down , assuming it still makes noise when I put it back together.

brainlessfool

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butt the ? is, is it spinning at the same speed in N as it is in Dr? I mean  high? :.order:
I don't do a lot of gear box work, but I don't think that .015 is bad as far as end play goes. :hammer:
« Last Edit: Apr 11, 2004, 12:56:35 PM by brainlessfool »
A good day working, that's just sick :reg:

 
 
 
 
 

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