Author Topic: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?  (Read 7414 times)

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shad

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2006, 06:45:41 AM »
Well so far my cheapest and most affordable swaps and most local to me is the 5mge which I can do with minimal fabrication.
It's not a 3rz but by far the easiest swap to do.
Also alot of good swap info here too:
http://www.4wd.net.nz/suprasurf.htm

I did find a cool site with aftermarket motor parts for the 5mge http://www.rabidchimp.com/index1.html

The engine I am looking at is the more powerful 86 5MGE

Late 5M-GE Power Output (1984-86): 161 HP @ 5600 rpm // 169 TQ @ 4400 rpm

Early 3RZ-FE Power Output (1995-98): 150 HP @ 4800 rpm // 177 TQ @ 4000 rpm

so as far the power difference it's not much less than the 3rz just the powerband is at a different place.


So it would be getting slightly rebuilt too so cost wize it is going to be higher but I am looking at less than $800 for the whole swap.
The 22r I have I know a guy who needs one so I could get his help in pulling the motor and wiring up this one in exchange for my old motor.

It all depends if I decide to keep the motor stock with new bearings and seals or to run oversized valves and .030 pisitons in the 5mge which would up the cost for addtion parts and machining. I can do most of the rebuild myself including the honing of the cylinders and rings and bearings. The head I could have sent off for the grind which would be the expense. The rebuild kit is around $200 with all seals. I would need the timing set for about $70.
 Doing the mods would up HP but not sure on how much but it would make a noticeable difference.
I am already running 2/14 piping so that should flow pretty nice for this motor.

Kinda cool mod idea: 5MGTE http://geocities.com/aarongarney/5mgte.html




He didn't get bad results either.
From his site:
Before the turbo install, the car put down 129 rwhp, and 136 ft/lbs of torque. At 7psi, the car made 208 rwhp, and 232 ft/lbs of torque.
Also wheel hp is always substancially less than crank hp which is the rating most manufacturers give you when you look at engine specs.
So at the crank HP and Torque could be around 235hp and 255FT/LB's.
I am sure the motor life is reduced substancially though.
Pretty awsome though for older technology.

Also the general consensus and opinion is the 5MGE is less powerful but for a offroad truck it holds up better to offroad abuse than the 7MGE or the 7MGTE.

Also been noticing most of these yards that have the tacoma motors the truck is long gone the motor is in a warehouse with a hacked harness no ecu, no powersteering no alternator no belhousing of course.
I have been using my time off to look around at the yards and at motors.


I am not trying to defend the 5MGE just looking at the overall cost of the swap.
I am sure whatever choice I make has to be leaps and bounds in power differance than the 22r.

What gets me is no one has the actual motor weight's I looked all over for the actual motor weight specs found nothing online.
I am sure yes the 5mge is heavier than the 3rz since it has 2 more cylinders and a bigger crank.


« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 09:18:56 AM by shad »
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shad [OP]

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2006, 08:08:09 AM »
Anyways putting together a actual cost list of parts to improve the 5mge and I will see if it's is worth it in rebuilding the 5mge vs getting a low milage 3rz-fe.

Cost of 5mge engine with wiring harness and all accessories
$200
w58 bell housing with clutch slave and flywheel
$40

Parts
5MGE PISTON SET TC2312.030 $72
TOYOTA 5MGE stainless racing 1 MM o/s valve set $68
82 83 84 85 Toyota Supra 5MGE NGK spark plug wires  $45
New plugs probably around $10-15
NEW EXEDY CLUTCH for 5M-GE W58 Toyota Celica-Supra  $75-80
 Toyota 5MGE Overhaul Engine Rebuild Kit 1982 thru 1987
∑   New Chrome Rings (specify size)
∑   New Rod Bearings (specify size)
∑   NewMain Bearings (specify size)
∑   New Thrust Bearing Set
∑   New Timing Belt
∑   Full set of Gaskets
$259.95
5MGE Toyota Brass Freeze Plug Kit $15-20

All this stuff is from ebay.

So about $545 in parts
I am sure if I shopped around I could get this lower.


Machine work locally done:
$141 bore block over
$76 clean block
$55 surface head
$26 clean head
$131-$200 valve job

$500 in work for upgrading build

I could take off clean block and clean head to save about $100 and do it myself if I wanted

This a rough estimiate so it maybe alot higher with a new oil pump and addtional things like belts and other machining work and stuff.

So itís around $1283 around the same as sourcing a low mileage 3rz block with nothing on it without a harness or ECU.
Porbably with exhaust hook up add another $300 and it's basically a newly rebuilt 5mge with a little more power for $1500ish already installed.

Look at adding some more for the wiring and ecu and clutch bellhousing as well as shipping unless you can find one locally cheaper.
So the 3rz is around $1500-1800 after all that then you gotta put it in add another $300 for exhuast.

Numbers maybe off though looking about a $500 differance between the 2 motors.

Pro one's rebuilt
Con the other isn't

I don't expect the 5mge motor will be a just drop in deal it will probably need some seal work and possiibly bearings so if I wanted to go with just go with a low buck rebuild and upgrade it I could.


I could also go this route it would be about 2/3 the cost

Full seal and rebuild set $260

Resurface and regrind valves $250

So it's around $510 ish if I get the bare minimiums done to the engine.

Add the cost of the engine and belhousing it's around $750
have to add back in the exhaust work $300
I heard you can use a 22r clutch not entriely sure on that but mine has about 2000 miles on it so I would prbably use it.
I can cheat a little and get the flywheel redone by my buddy who still works at the shop I used to work at.

So around $1050 it's running and done.

Either way engine swaps are always way more than anticipated.

Junkyard engines are hit or miss it's honestly better to just rebuild them.

I'll have to think on it for a couple days on which engine to go with still up in the air.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 09:21:17 AM by shad »
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kneedownnate

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2006, 03:17:25 PM »
Hey man, nobody has really brought this up yet, but that thing is gonna be a TIGHT fit in your truck.  The ones I've seen have the rear of the engine nearly contacting the firewall and the radiator being pushed forward of the core support.
RIP KYOTA

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shad [OP]

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2006, 05:52:43 PM »
I have a 1" body-lift so that may help some.
86 Toyota 4 runner
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kneedownnate

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2006, 04:51:36 PM »
A little, but you have the shortest engine bay front to back so it's just really tight.
RIP KYOTA

You can go through life being scared of the possible, or you can have a little fun and tease the inevitable.

Give a man venison, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to hunt Blacktail, he'll be frustrated for life!

jr9162

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2006, 07:49:26 PM »
A 5M-GE freshly rebuilt will be just that, a zero time motor. A used 3RZ-FE with any miles on it is not as good a deal for the same price. Much more difficilt to swap. Remember the 5M-GE is a bolt in swap. Trade off is a tight engine bay and figure out what to do about the radiator versus fabbing engine mounts. The 5M-GE will pose less demanding smog issues, if the locals accept an engine never installed by Toyota in your trucks.

The 5M-GE will run smoother and last longer than any inline four cylinder engine. You'll know exactly what's in the engine rebuilding it yourself. Installing any used junkyard engine is a crap shoot. Most 3RZ's won't give you problems simply because they're not as old, or used as long. Just ensure you use the correct head gasket and torque specs. I believe the 5M-GE is less notorious for blowing a head gasket than the 7M-GE.

Don't worry too much about horsepower. Look at the torque of the two engines. More specifically the torque curve. Go for the engine that produces a decent, flat, torque curve over a broad range of rpm. Torque is what moves the vehicle from point A to B in a given amout of time. Ever wonder why a 5.9 liter Cummins turbo-diesel gets off the line faster than a 7.3 liter Power-Stroke when both trucks have the same gear ratios, and weight? Look at the torque specs....

Now if you want to turbo the engine, go with the lower compression version 8.8:1 (or less) versus the 9.2:1. Keep the boost reasonable.
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shad [OP]

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2006, 08:36:54 AM »
A 5M-GE freshly rebuilt will be just that, a zero time motor. A used 3RZ-FE with any miles on it is not as good a deal for the same price. Much more difficilt to swap. Remember the 5M-GE is a bolt in swap. Trade off is a tight engine bay and figure out what to do about the radiator versus fabbing engine mounts. The 5M-GE will pose less demanding smog issues, if the locals accept an engine never installed by Toyota in your trucks.

The 5M-GE will run smoother and last longer than any inline four cylinder engine. You'll know exactly what's in the engine rebuilding it yourself. Installing any used junkyard engine is a crap shoot. Most 3RZ's won't give you problems simply because they're not as old, or used as long. Just ensure you use the correct head gasket and torque specs. I believe the 5M-GE is less notorious for blowing a head gasket than the 7M-GE.

Don't worry too much about horsepower. Look at the torque of the two engines. More specifically the torque curve. Go for the engine that produces a decent, flat, torque curve over a broad range of rpm. Torque is what moves the vehicle from point A to B in a given amout of time. Ever wonder why a 5.9 liter Cummins turbo-diesel gets off the line faster than a 7.3 liter Power-Stroke when both trucks have the same gear ratios, and weight? Look at the torque specs....

Now if you want to turbo the engine, go with the lower compression version 8.8:1 (or less) versus the 9.2:1. Keep the boost reasonable.

Boost of 7 psi or less right? That one I posted he runs 8-8.5 psi. I wonder if the engine is still running.

I also read that the 5mge can handle more boost than the 7mgte because the valves are larger than the 7mgte.
So having 12 Valves over 24 valves may be a slight adavantage for boost.

Also I may have been wrong on the engine HP the chart says the 86 cressida which is the motor I am getting has 156 hp and 165ftlbs of torque it also has the 8:8-1 ratio so I assume I can still boost this motor then.

85-88   2759   156@5200   165@4400   83   85   8.8:1   US Cressida

I would love to turbo this motor I think the cost would go way up unless I got all the 7mgte turbo parts really really cheap.

So basically I could build this 2 ways

resurface the head 3 angle valve grind
redo bottom end new standard bearings
New rings and hone cylinders keep the same bore to keep the same 8.8:1 compression add a turbo with around 7 psi boost look a getting 208HP and 232lbs of tq at the wheels.
Probably a little less hp since this is a 4wd app not a supra.


Or

Bore the 5mge .030 over and put in 1MM oversized valves
Overbored throttle body high flow intake keep it N/A

Not sure on HP rating on how much this would net

Think it would be substanial and worth the extra effort?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 09:05:29 AM by shad »
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jr9162

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2006, 08:23:50 PM »
Whether to bore and install new pistons versus honing and re-ringing depends upon several factors:

One - Is the clearances and taper in the bores low enough to allow simply honing and re-ringing it? Too much taper and clearances just means excess blow-by (crankcase pressurization) under boost. If you're going to install new bearings in the bottom end (both mains and rods) you should have the crank checked for straightness and polished - at a minimum. Installing a turbo charger ensures increasing power output over natural aspiration under normal street driving, or the same power at higher elevations a NA engine has at sea level.

Two - Do you plan on towing with the vehicle? Especially in the mountains?

Once you install the turbo, at what level of boost do you plan on calling it quits? The temptation is hey, I can boost this bad puppy up. Why stop at 6-7 psi? If you plan on boosting the motor and acknowledge you'll probably jack up the boost, rebore the engine and install an appropriate compression ratio'd set of forged pistons. You don't want to blow up a boosted engine using cast pistions. Neither do I suggest boosting one without new rod bearings.

Never spend good money on a rebuild (bore, pistons, reconditioning rods, crank grind n polish, new bearings, yada yada) without shelling out the extra bucks to have the reciprocating assembly balanced. That's like washing a dirty car and not waxing it....

A normal aspirated 24V engine breathes better than a 12V. It also has the added benefit of placing the spark plug or diesel fuel injector in the center of the combustion chamber. Under boost, you're better off with a 12V arrangement. They work better under boost, and more area around the valve seats means less chance of cracking the head. An engine operating under 12 psi of boost will never know there's only 12V versus 24V in the head. Boost is boost. If you plan on boosting the engine, I'd use the original valves - provided they're good. Increasing valve size is the same theory as increasing the number of valves in a NA engine, you want better air flow. Under boost, you already have the air flow at a steady constant pressure. More and or bigger valves are not as big a factor in a boosted engine as they are in NA conditions.

Bear in mind if you build the engine and boost it up, you're probably gonna want to play with 1UZ-FE injectors, throttle body, the AFM, and a bigger turbo-charger than the CT26....

Your level of participation in any sport is directly porportional to the size of your wallet.

If it was me rebuilding a 5M-GE for a 4x4, I'd keep it NA and determine to rebore on the amount of cylinder to piston clearance and taper. Inline sixes tend to wear less than the v6 and v8. You go around jacking up the power over 190 hp/190 lbs torque, you're gonna start destroying driveline parts.

My personal choice would be a 6M-GE or a 7M-GTE short block with a 5M-GE head. Pistons would be dictated by whether I'm boosting the engine or not. I'd much rather run a roots style blower versus the turbo charger anyways. No turbo lag and instant boost. I want the power in the bottom end, not midrange to top end.

JR 

   
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 08:32:45 PM by jr9162 »
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shad [OP]

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2006, 06:09:22 PM »
Thanks.
Well I looked into N/A mods very little to be gained.
Looks like I am going the turbo route on the 5mge.
Here's a tech site on a well built 5mgte motor:

http://users.easystreet.com/koden/5mgte.htm

He's making 271.8whp (317.6bhp) and 268.2 lbft at the wheels (311.1 lbft crank) at 11PSI
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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2006, 12:53:04 PM »
I have handled all 5m, 6m and the 7m motors. The taco motor is a waste of your time and I woulda never considered it, the 7M is way too heavy and only puts out like 5 more ponies with the torque also being roughly the same as the 6M, the 7M also is no good for boost apps. because of the smaller valves tend to burn. The 6M-GE is the motor to use its the same as the 5M only a its 3.0 not 2.8. All you have to do is open the motor mount holes, relocate either the fuel tank or the exhaust routing and move the fans to the front you have a straight axle so you won't need an oil pan swap or custom.

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2006, 01:34:12 PM »
I know you've already decided what to do, but I just wanted to defend the "taco motor"

Quote
The taco motor is a waste of your time and I woulda never considered it

If you are boosting an engine, then I agree that you can get more reliable power from more cylinders. But the Tacoma engine is one hell of a great engine. It is dang near impossible to stall out (perfect for wheeling) and still puts out a good 160 Hp / 185 Tq with simple bolt-ons. Give it just a little bit of boost, 6 psi or so, and it'll dish out 212 Hp / 252 Tq according to TRD (Smog Legal). That is 63 Tq per cylinder.

If those 6 cylinder M-engines were as efficient as the 3RZ then you'll be up to 378 Tq!!!!! (63 x 6cyl)
Now if you can make 378 Tq from just 6 psi of boost from the 5M/6M/7M/3VZ/5VZ, then DO IT!! But I know its not possible :moods:

The 3RZ is one hell of an Engine. Period.

skid

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Re: 5mge or a 2.7l taco motor?
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2006, 02:51:59 PM »
I know you've already decided what to do, but I just wanted to defend the "taco motor"

If you are boosting an engine, then I agree that you can get more reliable power from more cylinders. But the Tacoma engine is one hell of a great engine. It is dang near impossible to stall out (perfect for wheeling) and still puts out a good 160 Hp / 185 Tq with simple bolt-ons. Give it just a little bit of boost, 6 psi or so, and it'll dish out 212 Hp / 252 Tq according to TRD (Smog Legal). That is 63 Tq per cylinder.

If those 6 cylinder M-engines were as efficient as the 3RZ then you'll be up to 378 Tq!!!!! (63 x 6cyl)
Now if you can make 378 Tq from just 6 psi of boost from the 5M/6M/7M/3VZ/5VZ, then DO IT!! But I know its not possible :moods:

The 3RZ is one hell of an Engine. Period.


I think I understand what your trying to say,  but it should be foot pounds per cubic inch or cc.   The straight six cylinders are smaller,  apples to oranges.
If I could afford to do a 3rz swap, I would.  Why stop there, 3.4L v6?
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