Topic: What kind of CLutch?

[HaloFan1]

My clutch went out today. I only had it for about a year and wasnt even ruff on it at all. it pisses me to know that its only a year old and already needs replacing .What kind should I get next? any suggestions?

[Skinny_Pedal]

i have a 1200 marlin clutch. love it and abuse it

[HaloFan1 [OP]]

BTW i have a 91 4x4 3.0 v6. Im thinking of going with the ceramic clutch from Marlin. I guess that would proabaly be the best choice. Im going to have to order the clutch from Marlin and have a professional mechanic install it for me. Is there anything extra I need to buy with the clutch or is it a full install kit? I dont want the mechanic coming to me and saying that I am missing things that he cant get for that type of clutch or something.

[Matt_BC]

I just went through that ... same motor ... 94 V6....

The downey super clutch is only for the I4, the V6 is a little weak on options...

A few things to consider:

- Do NOT go over 1600 lbs pressure plate. It will destroy your crank bearings (large issue) and slave cyl (small issue).  If just the leverage is offset and the pedal pressure is 1600 lbs but actual clamp load is 2500 lbs , then it will still destroy your bearings.

- Get a quality pressure plate, like Exedy

- I was looking into the marlin ceramic clutch.  it looks good but I couldnt find out how it engages ... ceramic is often either IN or OUT. Thats not what you want for rock crawling or trailer maneuvering.

- I ended up getting a Southbend Clutch Kevlar disc with Exedy 1600 lbs pressure plate. Havent installed it yet (long story).

- Organic clutches arent that bad. An Aisin disc can be had for like $60 and my last OEM clutch (not aisis) lasted 140.00 km offorad and trailer pulling and was still good when I took it out (the pressure plate wasnt).

- When you change the clutch you should change pilot bearing and throwout bearing. It is smart to also change crank seal and trany input shaft seal. If your oillpan leaks, this is the time to take care of it.

- All REALLY hard to reach parts like the above should be the best quality you can find. I use Toyoya parts and pay a little more but they last as long as the clutch.

- Changeing the clutch isnt hard but time consuming. Some things need to be considered and a tranny jack is a very good idea to rent.

- If you bring the truck to a shop. Do you actually KNOW that they install that $300 ceramic clutch and Toypta bearings and seals in YOUR truck or in their own trucks? I have seen a lot .....

- If you can get a bigger and heavier flywheel it will be better for crawiing. Aparently some Supra wheels fit and you can get a larger diameter clutch. I havent found it and got sick of searching and the hassle.

- Get your flywheel GROUND not turned.

- The step in your flywheel MUST be 0.5 mm and the clutch disc must be 8.4 mm thick . If they arent you wont enjoy your clutch very much

Matt

[BigMike]

Well, as if Matt's excellent reply needed anything else, I would first say that I don't think you even need a ceramic or plucked clutch behind a 3.0 in the first place.

The diameter of the V6 is large enough that you will get significant life out of an organic clutch, especially considering that the 3.0 is not known for it's power.

In this case, even our basic 1200 ft-lb standard clutch kit would be quite ideal for you. I believe stock is around 900-1000 ft-lb for a Turbo 4cyl and I would imagine that to be the same on a 3VZ-E.

As for a clutch job, if you have the time and simple tools, jacks, etc, then do the job your self! It's really not that bad! Save some fun tickets ($$) and learn something new at the same time!

Which leads me to this post about changing the transmission input seal. Have you seen this post: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=4001.msg33584#msg33584

Here is what I wrote on removing the transmission:

About equal to a clutch job I would say.. Gotta pull the trans out, remove the nose cone, pop out the old seal, hit the shaft with some sand paper, grease the new seal and install it...............

OHH THIS REMINDS ME!! With that Real T/Case output seal we were talking about, MAKE SURE that when ever you install a new seal, from cam to axle seals, that you GREASE THE NEW SEAL! This is important!! Just pack the groove with some grease and then put the seal in place.


...........then put everything back together. You dont have to drain trans or tc oil and in fact dont even separate the tc from the trans. Heck, even keep the crossmember bolted to the tc.


Heres some steps to give you an idea, and Im sure i will miss something:
1) Disconnect the battery.
2) Pull the ebrake or put down some blocks at the tires.
3) Shift the trans into 4th and tcase into 4WD high and pull the shifters out from the cab.
4) Remove speedocable from t/case and unplug reverse and 4WD light wires.
5) Unbolt rear driveline from t/case, and completely remove front drive line. Either mark the slip yokes or be sure that they do not come apart or your drive lines will be out of balance.
6) If this is an IFS, it may help to get the sway bar out of the way. That could be a pain later.
7) Unbolt starter and let it rest next to the block with wires attached. (that's why we disconnect the battery)
8 ) Unbolt clutch slave cylinder and let it hang around. Never undo any fluid pressure lines unless your replacing it.
9) Place a tranny jack under the crossmember and remove all 8 frame bolts.
10) Unbolt all visible bellhousing to engine bolts. Also check if you still have the exhaust hanger mount and remove that if necessary.
11) Lower the entire tcase/trans/engine down a bit with the jack so you can access the two upper 17mm bolts atop the bellhousing with a very long extension and your strongest air gun.
12) Now using help from someone else, or try to do it Rambo style and use your feet and apply pressure to the floor jack while your arms shake and pull the transmission off of the clutch disk and lower to your chest. The Trans weighs 100 dry, tcase is 80 dry, and add the crossmember. What ever oil is left is gotta be at least 10 lbs or so. Remember the jack will be supporting alot of the weight and you can handle the rest your self.

13) Now set the trans to your side and on the ground and climb out from underneath the rig. Slide the trans/tcase outta there and go to work on it.
14) Tilt the whole thing up a bit and rest it against a box or something. This is so the oil will not run out when we remove the nose cone.
15) Remove the clutch fork and release bearing. The clip can sometimes be tricky if its your first time so note how it comes off and be sure to put it back on correctly.
16) Get yourself a 12mm and remove the bolts to the nose cone and take the nose cone off. Its sometimes sticky from the silicone and a light tap with a soft rubber hammer to the side of the cone where the bearing slides is ok.
17) Now carefully use a flat head screw driver and remove the old seal. Be sure not to scratch and scar the input shaft or your screwed.
18) Lap some sand paper on the input shaft and put some grease on the new seal and slap it on. Make sure its mounted flat and even all around.

19) Now just do everything in reverse order.

Some notes on reinstalling:
-Make sure when you reseal the nose cone, that the mating surfaces are clean from any oil. Spray some brake or carb cleaner on a clean rag and wipe down the two surfaces before using silicone.
-I recommend against Blue and Orange silicone and advise Toyota Black or Super Gray silicone.
-After the nose cone is back on, if you are not in the presence of a politician (aka environmentalist) blow out everywhere inside the bellhousing and blow out all the dust from the clutch.
-Make sure you regrease the shift fork in three places: Where the ball joint pivots on the fork, and at the end of the two fingers of the fork where it touches the release bearing.
-If you have some antiseaze, its a nice idea to apply a meager amount to the splines of the trans input so the clutch disk can move freely.
-Remember we shifted the tcase and trans into gear before removing it? well that's because this can sometimes be the nastiest part right here: When you are installing the trans, you've gotta get both the angle correct and the splines to line up for the trans input to clutch disk before it wil install. So get some help, or again if you are he-man, brace the trans with your knee caps, and while one hand is turning the front output flange on the tcase, use your other hand to "gustimate" the correct approach angle of the input and use your knees to support and lift the trans into place. If you are a regular joe like me, then use your brain power and use a couple of floor jacks to get it into place while you turn the flanges to align the splines. It can be a bugger and your arms will turn to spaghetti but dont give up! keep trying or your have to do it all over again with tired arms.


I think thats a good summary. Im sure we will get 101 more suggestions but thats a idea of the job. It'll take ya all day if its your first time so plan for a whole day and dont rush it. Take your time and learn how things work. Your be a happier man when its all done

BigMike

That is for changing a seal on the trans, but if you can get that far, then the clutch is yours with 5 more mins of work. Remove six 12mm bolts and off it'll come..... Steps 1 - 12 apply for how to remove the transmission from your truck.
Also note, that this was written for a 4cyl setup, and I have not pulled a 3.0 transmission out before, but it will be 99.9% the same procedure.

And here is a goofy picture (Originally found here: http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=9350.0) that basically shows the clutch layout:


I had made that picture to show how the pilot bearing (the red shaded area) supports the input shaft of the transmission.

Good luck with what ever ya do-
BigMike

[HaloFan1 [OP]]

Well I had it towed to a mechanic shop and they told me a hose had snapped and caused me to leak all of the clutch fluid. I dont know which hose it is but they said they are going to check the clutch tomorrow to see if there is anyhting wrong it. it has been squeaking alot when i press and let off the pedal. I tried lubing the pedal itself and the spring and that still did not work .I think the squeaking is coming from somewhere internally. Ill keep u guys updated. Thanks for all the great tips

[BigMike]

Sounds like either a pilot or release bearing issue. Too bad you can't work on your own rig...........

[HaloFan1 [OP]]

yeh i wish i had all the tools to work on it to. the only thing i know how to work on is suspension. I used to work at a 4x4 shop where pretty much all we did was suspension. I never had a chance to really work on anythign else.

[Matt_BC]

The only "hose" that could have snapped her eis the hydraulic clutch line but thats rather a pipe than a hose .... 

You dont need a great amount of tools for a clutch change .... you will need:

- set of metric wrenches
- socket set
- a few extensions and swivels for those darn  tranny top bolts
- tranny jack. Which you can rent for like $20 a day.
- torque wrench
- loctite, grease

All in all that will cost no more than $200.

If you can work on suspension then you can change your clutch.

What clutch fid you decide to get?

As Mike said ... the V6 isnt known to be a Power monster so dont be concerned with ultimate clamp power... I went with Kevlar for durability as (before) I changed the clutch the first time I dreaded that job.  But once you have done it a few times it isnt that bad

I dont want to bad mouth anybody but it is AMAZING what shops, screw up    Do it yourself, do it right.

Just a little story.... When Toyota changed my had gasket (recall  ) i had them put ina new timing belt.  What I didnt know is that the mechanic dropped a screw down the timing belt cover  , which was grabbed by the belt and launched halfways through the plastic cover. The part of the screw that did not penetrate the cover ground on my belt, effectively cutting it in half... Nice work!


Matt

PS. My OEM clutch lasted 140.000 km not 1400 .... my pilot bearing lasted 220.000 km but was done when I took it out.

[79coyotefrg]

I just went through that ... same motor ... 94 V6....

The downey super clutch is only for the I4, the V6 is a little weak on options...

A few things to consider:

- Do NOT go over 1600 lbs pressure plate. It will destroy your crank bearings (large issue) and slave cyl (small issue). If just the leverage is offset and the pedal pressure is 1600 lbs but actual clamp load is 2500 lbs , then it will still destroy your bearings.

- Get a quality pressure plate, like Exedy

- I was looking into the marlin ceramic clutch. it looks good but I couldnt find out how it engages ... ceramic is often either IN or OUT. Thats not what you want for rock crawling or trailer maneuvering.

- I ended up getting a Southbend Clutch Kevlar disc with Exedy 1600 lbs pressure plate. Havent installed it yet (long story).

 
 1st.   why on earth would you want more than 1600lb clutch  and for the life of me i cant figure how that would have any effect on crankshaft main bearings 

2nd.   i have marlins 1200 NON ceramic,   and its got right at 30,000 miles on it ,  when i had it out back in the summer, it showed no signs of wear,  after 30,000 miles,  i tow, i race, i drive it like a stole it,  and now visible signs of wear

3rd,  how much did the exedy1600 and southbend clutch cost ya ??

my marlin 1200 kit was $180 i think

[Matt_BC]

 1st. why on earth would you want more than 1600lb clutch and for the life of me i cant figure how that would have any effect on crankshaft main bearings

2nd. i have marlins 1200 NON ceramic, and its got right at 30,000 miles on it , when i had it out back in the summer, it showed no signs of wear, after 30,000 miles, i tow, i race, i drive it like a stole it, and now visible signs of wear

3rd, how much did the exedy1600 and southbend clutch cost ya ??

my marlin 1200 kit was $180 i think

I am saying that you do NOT want more than a 1600 lbs pressure plate.  Read my post. The effect on the crank bearing is that it prevents oil to go to onw of the bearings, thus killing it.  I could only find one reference to it and forgot the exact technical details.  Be assured its true that over 1600 lbs will be bad for your crank bearings. Thats for the 3VZE.


What motor are you running ? 22RE? 1200 is fine for that as is 1600 for the 3VZE.

The Exedy kevlar setup was aorund $300 .. am happy to pay $100 more to have a lasting clutch.  Organic OEM has worked for me but it was just time to try something new....

Matt

[79coyotefrg]

I am saying that you do NOT want more than a 1600 lbs pressure plate. Read my post. The effect on the crank bearing is that it prevents oil to go to onw of the bearings, thus killing it. I could only find one reference to it and forgot the exact technical details. Be assured its true that over 1600 lbs will be bad for your crank bearings. Thats for the 3VZE.


What motor are you running ? 22RE? 1200 is fine for that as is 1600 for the 3VZE.

The Exedy kevlar setup was aorund $300 .. am happy to pay $100 more to have a lasting clutch. Organic OEM has worked for me but it was just time to try something new....

Matt

  i have a 20/22 hybrid i built and modified myself,  the 22R  has 5 main bearings,    i am sure the 3.0  has 4 but clutch clamping pressure has absolutely no effect on main bearing oiling

now  it MIGHT hurt your throwout bearing,  but the 1600 is clamping pressure, NOT pedal pressure

and i promise you marlins clutches will outlast any i have seen, and ive been putting clutches in everything from corolla's to bigrigs for 20 years


dang that makes me sound old

[skid]

When the clutch is depressed, your are pushing on the thrust bearings on the crank.  I wouldn't imagine this could cause damage unless you sat for hours running with the clutch depressed.

[79coyotefrg]

now you have a point there skid, but whos going to sit and hold there clutch down all day  

[Matt_BC]

I tried to find the article that explained how pushing on the crankshaft thrust bearings (that is what your clutch does) will prevent proper oil flow.  It will not instanly destroy your motor but over time will cause damage.

But by all means. Everybody should install what they find fit.

I for my part will stick with 1600 lb clamp load  because its enough and it will neither damage the slave cylinder nor the crank bearings.

There is a reason why Downey only sells up to 1600 lbs . Also northwest off road does.  Look here:

http://www.northwestoffroad.com/parts/centerforce1-2.html

They didnt put a large warning on there because they made the 1600 lbs tale up ... Downey also used to have a warning in their catalog.


But be my guest and install the 2500 lbs pressure plate if you wish.

Matt

[kiyul4130]

ive got a centerforce and it feels amazing and is really old. its gotten its fare share of abuse and it still feels really nice.

[79coyotefrg]

But be my guest and install the 2500 lbs pressure plate if you wish.

Matt

   Matt NOBODY  makes a 2500lb clutch for toyota
1200 or 1600 is the CLAMPING PRESSURE not the pedal pressure for godsakes man pay attention 

[79coyotefrg]

http://www.northwestoffroad.com/parts/centerforce1-2.html


   NWOR     

Matt if i  printed a catologue that said Marlins hair was pink and toyota trucks only drove well in reverse  would you believe that too

     you have got to be kidding

ok,  fyi   after having 2 years and 30,000 miles of driving with marlins 1200 clutch,  i had to pull my engine last springs  ,  the clutch had no wear on it ,  so i reinstalled it,

as for my thrust bearings   they also showed NO signs of wear   

[Matt_BC]

Coyotefrg,

you should read more carefully what I wrote .... lets clarify one more time:

1. Max clamp Load:

22RE: 1200 lbs
3VZE: 1600 lbs


2. Clamp Load and Pedal Pressure

There are two loads of interest around your clutch:

a. Clamp Load
This is how hard the diaphragm presses the clutch disc on the flywheel.
As we know for each action there is a reaction. When you disengage your clutch the Reaction comes from your thrust bearings (that doesnt mean they move but they counter the load. If they didnt something would move other than the diapgragm and disc). The "Action" comes crom your slave cylinder/clutch fork.

On the 3VZE this clamp load must not be over 1600 lbs (long story)

b. Pedal Pressure
To disengage your clutch you have to lever the diaphragm/PP so it will stop pushing onto the disc.
Why is this relevant?  Because the 3VZE slave cylinder will only handle 1600 lbs pressure plates and be damged (over time) if a stronger pressure plate is used.

Why do we care about these ratings? Because you can get a pressure plate with more than 1600 lbs and what is dont to make sure it doesnt "feel" too hard ? They change the leverage on the diaphragm so that with the same load as stock you exert a higher force onto the diaphragm.  You will need to travel a little more with your clutch fork.  The simple laws of leverage apply here.


3. Are there pressure plates for the 3VZE with more than 1600 lbs (clamp load)?

Yes there are. The unbeliever may want to contact clutchexpress.com  who offered me a 2000 lbs pressure plate which was the weakest they had.  These pressure plates have a different diaphragm  leverage and the pedal load is the SAME as stock. Again, through leverage we have a little more travel and same force on one side, resulting on a grreater force and less travel on the other side.



4.  Clamp Load issues

I have only heard of the 3VZE having issues with too high clamp load.  Are these tales or truth? I have no evidence for either but since 1600 lbs will do the job in 99% of all cases I have no desire to experiment with more clamp load.... Other may feel free do to so.

I suspect if you use more than 1200 lbs and standard leverage on a 22 RE you will destroy your slave cylinder. 

If you do the same with a 3VZE with over 1600 lbs it will destroy the slave cylinder. UNLESS you have a pressure plate where they changed the leverage.  If your actual clamp load is higher than 1600 on the 3VZE .. well we discussed that briefly

P.S.  It would be interesting to know why marlin only offers 1600 lbs for the 3VZE?

I accept NWOR as being questionable but Marlin and Downey know what they are doing and they also only sell 1600 lbs for the 3VZE....


5. Your catalog
No offence, but it would sure be interesting I would like double check your information though....

What Downey writes in their catalog is usually correct ...


6. Your clutch
You are running a 1200 lbs pressure plate and your bearings are fine?

Thats great

But why does it not surprise us?

Beacuse the 22 RE is fine with 1200 lbs and also nobody ever claimed its trust bearings can not handle more than 1200 lbs.

So, although I am happy for your clutch and motor, but really it has nothing to do with the 3VZE and the 1600+ lbs issue.  The issue is also not that the bearings cant handle the load, its that the way one of the bearings is designed it will inhibit oil flow to that bearing.

And one more time. Other than not seeing a more than 1600 lbs pressure plate and reading one report on the issue I dont have any other information.  And Downey and NWOR stating it does damage the bearings. For me thats enough reason to stick with the totally adequate 1600 lbs. We are talking 3VZE here. This has nothing to do with the 22RE! (Nothing).



I take your word on 22RE issues and beleive you are knowedgeable  ,  but the 3VZE bearing issues is a different story....

Lets not let this discussion get out of hand.... If you have some objective things to say or show about the 3VZE and where I am wrong, plase do so ... but stick to whats objective.

Matt

[79coyotefrg]

MC-11006 1981-1991 4 Cylinder (2.2 L, 2.4 L) 1600   <<<<<<<<<<


um  Marlin and downey sell a 1600 for the 22R

now you are correct in the fact that i am not familiar with the 3vze   and apparently i was wrong in the fact that noone sells a 2500lb clutch because   clutchexpress people obviously do, they're just trying to sell the bigger deal  than anybody else,  oh well      DUDE  DONT BUY FROM THEM



as for the rest of your ramblings 

[Matt_BC]

Ramblings? I am not sure what your problem is. But I think its time to let this one go.  The topic is overdiscussed ...

This post started out with someone looking for advise on the 3VZE clutch, which I gave him.

Show me where I said something wrong and I will correct it.

Matt

[DN1911]

are the bearings in the Marlin Kit any good? i have heard they were cheap aftermarket and i have heard they are OEM Toyota. can anyone clerify?

[79coyotefrg]

are the bearings in the Marlin Kit any good? i have heard they were cheap aftermarket and i have heard they are OEM Toyota. can anyone clerify?

  yea  I'm sure thats what Chris Geiger tells everybody,    but NO   
Marlin gets his clutch kits from a Japanese company called AisinSeiko  or  something,  like that,  they are special ordered  and the bearings  are OEM  Japanese  made Toyota quality

[DN1911]

that's what i thought, and also why i ordered from Marlin in the first place. i will be continuing my clutch install tomarrow.

[79coyotefrg]

that's what i thought, and also why i ordered from Marlin in the first place. i will be continuing my clutch install tomarrow.

let me know if you have any trouble