Author Topic: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.  (Read 5706 times)

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Toybrota

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Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« on: Jan 13, 2019, 09:23:46 PM »
Hey all, I've having quite the ordeal with a pesky leaking rear main seal on my freshly rebuilt early 22R.
A 1981 22R in an 85' 4x4 for anyone who wants to know.
I'm 400 miles in and the rear main has seemed to have been leaking for about a week.
The oil level has stayed consistent. It seems to be about a 1/4 quart overfilled, which I've done on the Xtracab before during our changes. No issues there.
Could the oil level be a reason? Tomorrow I'm changing the break-in oil to regular dino oil per my schedule. I can purposely fill it with 4.5 qts to see if it stops, I stead of the 5.0 which seems to overfill them a bit.

The rebuild was done by me, I did every aspect of assembly minus the headwork. The crank Rods and mains got ground. The crank had a serious groove in it, so I ordered the LCE repair sleeve and had a machine shop install it. They used the proper installation tool (I watched).
The seal I used came from the Toyota full gasket kit, a NOK seal. I've heard and read (I've researched this a ton) about the Toyota rear main seals for these trucks. Supposedly these ones differ as they are silicone and are double lipped?

I know it's not the transmission gear oil. It looks, smells and tastes nothing like gear oil. It looks and tastes and smells like oil.
The rubber half moon plug is dry as can be, I used silicone as Toyota suggested. I used a seal driver to drive the seal in flush. The seal retainer got the Toyota gasket in addition to some silicone smeared on both sides of the gasket. I do this on all my gaskets and it works good. New hardware for the seal retainer/holder.

It's also running a front valve cover breather and a functioning PCV valve.

I know it will eventually destroy my clutch, I fully intend to fix the issue at some point. I know the transmission will come out, I've done it about 3 times before so I'm speedy. I want to fix this leak, how should I fix it to prevent it from leaking? Just run the seal without the sleeve? New sleeve? Buy a Ford?

Then there could be the other, fuel getting into the oil replacing it while it leaks making me think the level is fine when it's not. Tastes like oil. Not gas.
I'm anal about leaks, especially after having nearly 4k into this whole project.

Engine runs great, just got done putting 20 miles on it tonight.

Anyways, some input or advice from some seasoned guys would be much appreciated. Thanks everyone!

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« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2019, 09:34:46 PM by Toybrota »

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #1 on: Jan 13, 2019, 09:28:17 PM »
Shot of the leak.

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Jason E.

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #2 on: Jan 13, 2019, 10:39:07 PM »
Have you noticed and access crank case pressure? I have the same breather and a Oil Catch Can with a pcv and noticed I still had a lot of crank case pressure. Im Efi but not much difference there. I added a extra filter on top of my oil catch can and it helped. Im getting a lot of fuel into my oil and noticed the same leak you got out of the rear main seal. Once I fixed the excess crank case pressure the leak went away without having to change the gasket.

Also btw a lot of guys will fight me on this. But ive used them both. I have not noticed a longevity difference between running OEM toyota rear main seal over ITM, Felpro, or Mahle. No I would not use Rock auto jump or ebay/amazon gaskets but im just saying. I watch my shop send out over 50-60 20r/22r/22re long blocks a year with Itm and felpro kits that never come back with a leak!

Good looking motor brotha! Hope that annoying leak goes away. I cant stand them eaither! :hammerhead:
- 1989 Toyota 4runner ( 22re, Dana 44, Sterling 10.25, 4.10, Family Rig in Progress) http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98687.msg1099361#msg1099361

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #3 on: Jan 14, 2019, 05:26:45 AM »
Have you noticed and access crank case pressure? I have the same breather and a Oil Catch Can with a pcv and noticed I still had a lot of crank case pressure. Im Efi but not much difference there. I added a extra filter on top of my oil catch can and it helped. Im getting a lot of fuel into my oil and noticed the same leak you got out of the rear main seal. Once I fixed the excess crank case pressure the leak went away without having to change the gasket.

Also btw a lot of guys will fight me on this. But ive used them both. I have not noticed a longevity difference between running OEM toyota rear main seal over ITM, Felpro, or Mahle. No I would not use Rock auto jump or ebay/amazon gaskets but im just saying. I watch my shop send out over 50-60 20r/22r/22re long blocks a year with Itm and felpro kits that never come back with a leak!

Good looking motor brotha! Hope that annoying leak goes away. I cant stand them eaither! :hammerhead:
Thanks fir the tip! Excess crank pressure, I'd have to say no. It's enough to make the oil filler cap dance if left unthreaded and set on top. Since this is a new motor, I'd expect the blow by to go down overtime as the rings take to seating. I've run catch cans on a 22R before, I have one laying around that I could install.


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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #4 on: Jan 14, 2019, 06:45:48 AM »
Yeah mine is very fresh so it used to literally blow my off if i loosed it while running. If im not mistaken dancing around is too much. But now on a motor as new as yours. A catch can is ALWAYS a great idea to me. It saves your carb, intake, and valves from gross oil deposits

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- 1989 Toyota 4runner ( 22re, Dana 44, Sterling 10.25, 4.10, Family Rig in Progress) http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=98687.msg1099361#msg1099361

- 1996 Toyota Land Cruiser (E-locker, Old Man Emu Lift, 33's, and Armor)

- 1996 Ford F250 7.3L powerstroke (Flat Bed, Manual, 2wd on 33,s)

- (SOLD) 1979 Toyota 1st Gen pickup 22re swap(http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=94183.0)

Dippin' , Spittin' , Truck Gittin' , God lovin' son of a Motha Fucka.

When In Doubt, Throttle Out. Because in the End, Its a Yoda Thang     - Brandon Jako

R.I.P. Brandon Jako! Ill see you on the flip side!

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #5 on: Jan 14, 2019, 07:32:05 AM »
Yeah mine is very fresh so it used to literally blow my off if i loosed it while running. If im not mistaken dancing around is too much. But now on a motor as new as yours. A catch can is ALWAYS a great idea to me. It saves your carb, intake, and valves from gross oil deposits

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Sounds like a good idea. I'll hook mine up. Thanks for the tip!

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #6 on: Jan 14, 2019, 09:17:41 AM »
Your leak is not happening do to high crank case pressure. You are barking up the wrong tree.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #7 on: Jan 14, 2019, 09:29:35 AM »
I'm not there and I know nothing, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. That said I have trouble understanding how this can be a rear main seal leak, because there is no oil coming out of the drain hole on the bottom of the bell housing. Could it possibly be from the oil pan gasket?

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #8 on: Jan 14, 2019, 09:31:14 AM »
Your leak is not happening do to high crank case pressure. You are barking up the wrong tree.
That's what I'm thinking. I mean, I have the materials so it's worth a shot. But, I know it's not leaking from that.

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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #9 on: Jan 14, 2019, 09:32:03 AM »
I'm not there and I know nothing, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. That said I have trouble understanding how this can be a rear main seal leak, because there is no oil coming out of the drain hole on the bottom of the bell housing. Could it possibly be from the oil pan gasket?
It always could be. It's worth a shot to re-seal it. With the leak as slow as it is, I'm just gonna continue to drive tree truck to see if the leak progresses or gets worse.


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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #10 on: Jan 14, 2019, 09:56:06 AM »
It always could be. It's worth a shot to re-seal it. With the leak as slow as it is, I'm just gonna continue to drive tree truck to see if the leak progresses or gets worse.


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I agree with this. it's a new engine give it some time and see what happens. Your clutch should be fine unless the leak gets much worse. you have a big flywheel between the rear main seal and the clutch assembly.
The speedy sleeve you used on the crank seal surface is a great idea and You used a Toyota seal. You have done everything correct in that area. ? You did put lube on the lip area of the seal when installed correct? this is a critical step.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #11 on: Jan 14, 2019, 09:59:30 AM »
I just got off the phone after talking to Wes at LCE and someone at 22REperformance.

Wes at LCE was surprised that I had a leak, he claims they use seal savers on a ton of their "pro" motors with factory ground Toyota cranks, and they never have leaks.
The person at 22REperformance said they NEVER use seal savers because they leak. And that I should just use a Toyota seal. He said they re-use cranks unless they are too grooved, which at that point they just use a new crank.
I thought about calling the guys at Marlin, but figured they have more important things to deal with than answer a stupid question like this.

The engine runs fantastic as it is, so is the only way to repair this properly is to tear the motor down again and install a new crank? Can't be. At that point, let it leak.





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Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #12 on: Jan 14, 2019, 10:02:12 AM »
I agree with this. it's a new engine give it some time and see what happens. Your clutch should be fine unless the leak gets much worse. you have a big flywheel between the rear main seal and the clutch assembly.
The speedy sleeve you used on the crank seal surface is a great idea and You used a Toyota seal. You have done everything correct in that area. ? You did put lube on the lip area of the seal when installed correct? this is a critical step.
Yep, I put plenty of grease on both the seal lips and the crank surface itself. I agree with your point, I'll just leave it and see how it progresses. Thank God I have a Solid Axle truck so I don't gotta drop the diff to remove the pan! I'll just fix it later.

I DO have to drive to truck to Denver in March, and then to my new place in Washington in the summer. Likewise, I have plenty of time to test this and fix the issue.

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #13 on: Jan 14, 2019, 10:50:41 AM »
Moving to Washington? What area?
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

Toybrota [OP]

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #14 on: Jan 14, 2019, 11:10:53 AM »
Moving to Washington? What area?
Vancouver area. No emissions on 1990 and back!

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #15 on: Jan 14, 2019, 12:06:37 PM »
Vancouver area. No emissions on 1990 and back!

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Well I hope You like fishing. Columbia River is some of the best anywhere
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #16 on: Jan 21, 2019, 03:08:36 AM »
Might be gear oil coming out your trans input seal. If it drives you nuts pull the motor and see.
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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #17 on: Jan 21, 2019, 03:47:45 AM »
Might be gear oil coming out your trans input seal. If it drives you nuts pull the motor and see.

"pull the motor"....??  Is it easier to pull the motor to fix a transmission input shaft seal?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :gap:
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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #18 on: Jan 21, 2019, 08:55:56 AM »
"pull the motor"....??  Is it easier to pull the motor to fix a transmission input shaft seal?  :dunno:

Gnarls. :gap:
No way in hell. Transmission first.

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #19 on: Jan 22, 2019, 03:14:05 AM »
Well one or the other has to move :).  I determined for me pulling the motor is physically easier but takes more time, dropping the trans is faster but harder and with more swearing.  Really comes down to which kind of torture you prefer.
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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #20 on: Jan 22, 2019, 06:16:46 AM »
Well one or the other has to move :).  I determined for me pulling the motor is physically easier but takes more time, dropping the trans is faster but harder and with more swearing.  Really comes down to which kind of torture you prefer.

Well... I don't have near the experience H8PVMNT has, BUT.... having R&R'd my 5-speeds a half dozen times, and having pulled the engine on my current 1986 XtrCab with a 22RE, I can say that absolutely there is NO WAY I can pull my a 22RE faster or easier than simply dropping the transmission to get to the transmission input shaft seal and seal housing!!  To pull my 33-year old 22RE took me over 12 hours.  If I was trying to hurry, I believe I can drop my transmission and roll it out from under my truck in about 2 hours.

With a 22R, there is way less concern for carefully moving a big wire harness, marking wires, damaging connectors, sensor connectors, injector connectors, O2 sensor, etc... so pulling 22R would be WAY easier. 

Working on the input shaft seal while sitting in the engine bay would be very uncomfortable.  Unless you have the truck front end jacked way up, like 45 degrees, when you remove the input shaft seal housing, the transmission gear lube would have to be drained, because otherwise it will drain out of the 2 lower bolt holes on the seal housing.

Then... on re-installing an engine into the engine bay... with a cherry picker floating the engine, trying hold and get it angled precisely to position the pressure plate to allow the transmission input shaft line up to get the engine moved back onto the shaft would be very difficult... AND I would be very concerned with bending the input shaft.  With the transmission sitting on a transmission jack, I have control of the angles and movement of the transmission.

So for me... it's an absolute no-brainer!! ... I will ALWAYS drop my transmission.  :gap:

Gnarls. :blah:




« Last Edit: Jan 22, 2019, 06:35:21 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~16,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #21 on: Jan 23, 2019, 03:03:52 AM »
My stripped down carb setup is a game changer in this scenario.
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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #22 on: Jan 23, 2019, 05:54:52 AM »
300K pulled a 22re in a couple hours if i remember correctly.

Yep......   :haha: 300k is a super-dooper-engine-pull'n-pooper!!   :thumbs:

Gnarls.  :gap:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~16,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

God Bless Our Troops... Especially Our Snipers. The 2nd defends the 1st
MEMBER: WWP, T2T, VFW, NRA, GOA, SAF, Mammoth Nation, C2 Tactical, Hillsdale College, Humane Society of the U.S. - "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used to create them." ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #23 on: Jan 23, 2019, 05:58:58 AM »
I think the transmission CAN be easier, depends on the rusty fasteners you gotta deal with.
Cross member... I'm looking at you.

The top two bell housing bolts I can get from the engine bay. I use to do the 4' of extensions.

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #24 on: Jan 23, 2019, 11:35:32 AM »
He pulled his 22R in 30 minutes...
The Engine rebuild on the other hand. Well thats now moving into it's second year.  :_oops:
300K's engine  ":help: Me"
Anyone know anything about E-brake installation? I hear it's very difficult? Asking for a friend.  :moon:
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #25 on: Jan 23, 2019, 01:20:10 PM »
The Engine rebuild on the other hand. Well thats now moving into it's second year.  :_oops:
300K's engine  ":help: Me"
Anyone know anything about E-brake installation? I hear it's very difficult? Asking for a friend.  :moon:

Yeah kinda like your kids engine rebuild when he gave up and sent it to the scrap yard? Oh and he had a master mechanic right beside him. Enough said in that subject?
:)bestgen4runner [12:45 PM]:   I am so stupid.

Truer words have never been spoken...

Lewis Hein

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Re: Toybrota's rear main seal ordeal.
« Reply #26 on: Jan 23, 2019, 04:17:00 PM »
Less talk and more fixing!  :_order: Toybrota, I appreciate your starting a thread on this! The rear main seal gods have been very good to me so far, but when their goodwill runs out I feel like I will be reading some of the stuff here.