Author Topic: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs  (Read 3497 times)

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EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #120 on: Jan 10, 2019, 12:29:16 PM »
Hahaha, chocolate?

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #121 on: Jan 10, 2019, 01:05:38 PM »
Just admit it. You have no clue.  :headscratch:.   If the computer does not tell you what parts to replace you can't fix  :pokinit:.

I would think it is a fueling issue for sure. Carb bowls draining came to mind first but that should happen with the chocolate and strawberry rather than vanilla. 100 degrees isn't THAT hot, don't think that would be a factor. :dunno:
Keep it TOYOTA!

In the past years, I used to get a lot of calls from Jeep owners wanting to go slow like the Toy trucks.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #122 on: Jan 10, 2019, 01:20:47 PM »
I would think it is a fueling issue for sure. Carb bowls draining came to mind first but that should happen with the chocolate and strawberry rather than vanilla. 100 degrees isn't THAT hot, don't think that would be a factor. :dunno:

Your very close.  100+° shuts car off, rad is now not cooling motor. Heat from motor is trapped under hood. Temperatures in the carb and fuel lines rise and then cool off.  The more the carb and fuel lines cool off the more like the motor is to start. 

The fuel lines are getting a vapor lock as they heat up, and it goes away when it cools off. 

The guy was happy to learn all he needed to do was pop the hood open a few inches well he was in the store and there was no problem.

He did return the car just the same. He figured the people that work on the cars all the time had no idea what was going on and how to fix it, so he did not want to have to trust them to fix a real problem.


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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #123 on: Jan 10, 2019, 01:37:40 PM »
Your very close.  100+° shuts car off, rad is now not cooling motor. Heat from motor is trapped under hood. Temperatures in the carb and fuel lines rise and then cool off.  The more the carb and fuel lines cool off the more like the motor is to start. 

The fuel lines are getting a vapor lock as they heat up, and it goes away when it cools off. 

The guy was happy to learn all he needed to do was pop the hood open a few inches well he was in the store and there was no problem.

He did return the car just the same. He figured the people that work on the cars all the time had no idea what was going on and how to fix it, so he did not want to have to trust them to fix a real problem.
Ouch
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #124 on: Jan 10, 2019, 01:51:36 PM »
Ouch

Don't think it hurt him too bad. Sucks for the dealer that sells a brand that he does not buy any more.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #125 on: Jan 11, 2019, 03:42:31 AM »
That video is complete BS.  That engine is NOT stock application, with that being said, after changing an engine profile most likely those stock plugs were not of the correct heat range.  See you still dont get it.  If spark plugs actually increased power we would all be running E3 plugs right now.  "Improve power!!! Restore performance!!!!   Arrrghhh!!!"   If you dont buy these plugs you better be in jail, and if you are in jail, BrEaK OuT!!!   Dont forget who delivers the spark silly nuts, its not the plug, its the coil.  The plug doesnt randomly decide to have more voltage output.  More expensive plugs are just different quality to last longer. 

Hey E,

Wow… I’m trying real hard to understand your point of view…. I still don’t get it.

For me, your statements are becoming more and more illogical and nonsensical.

Yes, that video could be “complete BS”, but based on the number of engine dyno videos I’ve watch, those engine builders are not going to jeopardize their reputations and waste their time doing 6 pulls on a $30,00 engine doing a bogus test on a $60,000 SuperFlo 901 dyno, and then publish their bogus “complete BS” video on You Tube for the world to see how stupid they are.

If you believe that video “is complete BS”, then, for you, this will be a bigger pile of BS:

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2017/03/fire-hole-racing-spark-plugs/

Your statement…  “The plug doesnt randomly decide to have more voltage output.”  So if that were true, then the fuel injectors have zero affect on power, and it’s really the fuel pump that determines the AFR? Again… your statement is complete BS.  Fact: The condition of a spark plug has as much to do with the engine’s ability to produce power, as the coil does to produce high voltage.

“More expensive plugs are just different quality to last longer.”  … So the quality of a spark plug has nothing to do with power?  So… the spark produced by a spark plug, allowed by the coil, has nothing to do with the performance of the engine?

You are correct  … I still don’t get what your point is and how you know more about spark plugs than NGK and E3, expert engine builders, dyno testing, NASCAR engine builders, and the fact that V-Man’s problem – hard starting and sluggish throttle response - was solved by simply changing the spark plugs.

If you can provide some real facts or data to back up your comments, I’m open to learning something new?  :dunno:

Your statement…. “If spark plugs actually increased power we would all be running E3 plugs right now. “

I assume that you are saying spark plugs [DO NOT] actually increase power?  If you have discovered some yet unknown combustion engine power phenomenon, I’m sure there is going to be a huge number of dumb-founded automotive engineers, engine builders, and spark plug manufacturers that will want to meet you to have a serious discussion about your profound discovery.  :gap:

I may be wrong, but for the sake of this thread, I am assuming that the word "power" means what is commonly referred to in engines is measured torque and mathematically calculated horse power.

Gnarls - me and my "silly nuts".  :spin:





« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2019, 04:00:32 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #126 on: Jan 11, 2019, 06:46:47 AM »

You are correct  … I still don’t get what your point is and how you know more about spark plugs than NGK and E3, expert engine builders, dyno testing, NASCAR engine builders, and the fact that V-Man’s problem – hard starting and sluggish throttle response - was solved by simply changing the spark plugs.

Gnarls - me and my "silly nuts".  :spin:

New plugs and resetting the fuel map when I fixed the low beams.
But would have simple resetting the fuel map solved it by it's self?

As for the E3 plugs......the stock Denso ( old and new ) in my tacoma(3.5L)
Look like E3. I don't think E3 plugs are iridium and the Denso's are.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #127 on: Jan 11, 2019, 07:26:29 AM »
Forgive Me if I asked this question before but, The plug that came out and the plugs that You installed had the same part # correct?
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #128 on: Jan 11, 2019, 07:43:37 AM »
Forgive Me if I asked this question before but, The plug that came out and the plugs that You installed had the same part # correct?

I took out Denso( dealer installed), and put in  Bosh plugs.  But I should look at the part number on the densos.

EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #129 on: Jan 11, 2019, 07:52:51 AM »
The only true way to know if there is/was a change is to monitor the kv before and after.  Look at the burn duration ect...  The spark wants to find the path of least resistance to ground.  According to Vmans resistance check of the plug it would only incline me to think it had a dead misfire.  But his theory is that the voltage is being shared between plug gap and through internal short?  But isnt a couple hundred ohms less of a resistance than aporox .045" air gap? Wouldn't one think the primary flow of electricity would be through the internal short to ground thus not allowing enough voltage to cross the gap?  I dunno, there is a resistance value for air gap, but no way if measuring it, easily.  Or is his theory of that of a partially burnt fuse....  either or, i dont see this being conclusive enough.  Also, how certain is it that this hack dealer tech actually replaced the plugs?  And if its suspected it was running a touch rich why do the plug look so clean?

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #130 on: Jan 11, 2019, 08:38:35 AM »
I took out Denso( dealer installed), and put in  Bosh plugs.  :smack: (I had no idea what I was doing)
But I should look at the part number on the densos.
So I hope You believe Me when I say this, because it is 100% the truth and possibly Jesse will have similar experiences. The one and only brand of spark plug that I have seen cause multiple issues on Toyotas is Bosch plugs. No question You should remove them and replace them with NGK or Nippon. I can promise You with 100% certainty that they will cause issues over time. this also completely throws out the spark plugs as the fix and ruins or long term test results I have been excited to see. Not to mention the resistance comparison is worthless. Japanese apples vs German oranges.
I should have asked this question in the beginning and am ashamed that I didn't think of it sooner. I must be getting old as My detective skills are diminishing.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #131 on: Jan 11, 2019, 08:42:06 AM »
Is the bosch (also knows as the worst spark plugs ever made) have a single ground electrode or multiple?
can you post a picture of the new plug. Not the one in the truck but an example.
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2019, 08:21:56 PM by :)bestgen4runner »
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #132 on: Jan 11, 2019, 10:28:04 AM »
Is the bosch (also knows as the worst spark plugs ever made) has a single ground electrode or multiple?
can you post a picture of the new plug. Not the one in the truck but an example.

The Bosch plugs have only one electrode. My Denso plugs for the tacoma have three. 

I know the plugs were changed at the dealer, because if not there would still have  the bosch plugs I put in about two years ago not Denso.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #133 on: Jan 11, 2019, 10:51:16 AM »
  I dunno, there is a resistance value for air gap, but no way if measuring it, easily.

The standard accepted Dielectric failure value for air is 21.1Kv/cm ( RMS)  or 30Kv/cm( peak).  That means  you need 21.1Kv/cm to ionize one cm of air between the Electrode and ground to allow the spark to cross the distance.  Since the 0.039 to 0.043" gap on the plugs is only 0.109cm the formula shows that you could in theory only need 2.1Kv/cm to have a spark between the Electrode and ground. 

I think Bgen is on the right track.  I will be home in a few hours and I will double check the part number on the plugs.

EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #134 on: Jan 11, 2019, 11:01:06 AM »
Yah, i googled it too, but it all changes with temp and fuel ect...  plus ive seen under 20k at idle...
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2019, 11:17:35 AM by EASYRYDERDANGER »

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #135 on: Jan 11, 2019, 03:58:10 PM »
OK home now.

The plugs the dealer put in are K20R-U.  That answer your question Bgen?

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #136 on: Jan 11, 2019, 08:24:24 PM »
OK home now.

The plugs the dealer put in are K20R-U.  That answer your question Bgen?
I need more info on the application to know for sure.
Make model and year
Or PM me the vin to be exact
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #137 on: Jan 11, 2019, 09:12:20 PM »
I need more info on the application to know for sure.
Make model and year
Or PM me the vin to be exact

Sorry. 2004 4runner 4.7L V8.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #138 on: Jan 12, 2019, 03:17:46 AM »
...  Spark plugs do not increase power. ...

Can spark plugs reduce power?  :dunno:

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #139 on: Jan 12, 2019, 03:21:09 AM »
So I hope You believe Me when I say this, because it is 100% the truth and possibly Jesse will have similar experiences........ I can promise You with 100% certainty that they will cause issues over time.... I must be getting old as My detective skills are diminishing.

What specifically are the "issues over time"?

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

EASYRYDERDANGER

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #140 on: Jan 12, 2019, 11:13:40 AM »
So my thought proccess is this, make a vehicle run the intended way it is supposed to based off oem stock values.  That is my profession. Not aftermarket go fast mentality.  So yes, replacement of worn components can restore power back to factory.  There is alot that goes in to making a plug and alot of it has to do with heat.  Take fords triton plug, they made it smaller to allow for bigger coolant passageways in the head.  And then there is its heat range and resistance value.  Also there is alot of hidden tuning from oem, from waste spark to actually firing the coil multiple times on the power stroke.  Ive graphed a newer ford ignition pattern and it would fire 2-3 times cold and then drop 1-2 times once warm.  Now im babbling, this info doesn't pertain to what we are discussing but just sharing.  Think of this thought process; with all the crazy engineering that goes in to todays engines wouldn't you think that the best plug to put in has already been chosen by oem?  What these vehicle manufacturers are coming up with to improve economy, you think they grased over the plug?

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #141 on: Jan 12, 2019, 12:19:59 PM »
OK home now.

The plugs the dealer put in are K20R-U.  That answer your question Bgen?
Looking at the pictures you posted they appear to be
Sk20r-11 plugs?
This is an acceptable spark plug for this vehicle and has an expected life span of 120k miles
« Last Edit: Jan 12, 2019, 12:35:21 PM by :)bestgen4runner »
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #142 on: Jan 12, 2019, 04:54:27 PM »
So my thought proccess is this,...

I appreciate everybody's thoughts.  :beerchug:

Here are my thoughts…  :blah:

The 2 spark plug parts listed in my factory1986 Toyota Truck & 4Runner Repair Manual are:

Nippon Denso – W16EXR-U and NGK BPR5EY.  I have tried 3 or 4 different spark plugs in my 4 Toyota trucks over the years (since 1986), including iridiums.

The factory recommended plugs were what was available in 1986.  In 1985 Bosch introduced the first Platinum plug.  In 1996 NGK introduced the Iridium plug.

Today if you look at the spark plug chart with replacement part numbers, Denso and NGK both show an Iridium part for my 22RE engine.  So both of the manufacturers of the original plug that was selected by Toyota for my 1986 22RE, now offer a better and more advanced spark plug.  WHY?

Although there are probably tests out there, I have not read or heard of a direct certified test comparison  - an engine dyno test – but I believe iridium spark plugs CAN and DO increase power over an earlier designed platinum or copper spark plug… and it appears to be a well established fact.  Simply stated, iridium plugs make a better spark, which makes the combustion better, "Better combustion means more power and better fuel economy, as fuel is burned more efficiently with each piston firing.”… that’s a quote right off of Denso’s web site:  http://densott.com/

The fact that iridium plugs last longer is big plus.  At 110,000 I pulled the plugs on my 2013 Corolla. They are factory original and Denso iridium.  I was amazed at how well they looked.  I could not see any “wear”, so I re-installed them.

On my 1986 22RE, if I replaced my factory stock NGK BPR5EY with a new set of Denso’s iridium TT plugs would I be able tell the difference?  I don’t know.  Would I be able tell the difference at 50,000 or 75,000?  - probably because the iridium plugs would not be failing due to electrode wear like a set of platinum or copper plugs.

The corona stain on the porcelain appear to a normal stain according to at least several spark plug manufacturers.

That’s just my opinion – it may be worthless.  :gap:

Gnarls.  :spin:
« Last Edit: Jan 12, 2019, 05:01:13 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #143 on: Jan 12, 2019, 05:19:24 PM »
Looking at the pictures you posted they appear to be
Sk20r-11 plugs?
This is an acceptable spark plug for this vehicle and has an expected life span of 120k miles

Yes they are. I was reading the part number off the service invoice, but when I looked at the plugs them self they are SK20R-U11.

Lazy typing by the service department. 

I was hoping you had solved the problem, but now I guess it's square one.  I don't think we will ever be able to say it was the plugs, or something resetting the fuel map fixed. 

Guess we will have to see in March.

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #144 on: Jan 13, 2019, 07:25:19 AM »
http://densoautoparts.com/find-my-part.aspx#searchResults

Spark PlugK20R-U11 ( 3139 )
Mfr Label   U-Groove Conventional
Resistance   5000
Ground Electrode Tip Design   U-Groove
Ground Configuration   Standard
Ground Electrode Core Material   Nickel
Center Electrode Core Material   Copper
Center Electrode Tip Material   Nickel
Gap Size   0.044 In
Ground Electrode Quantity   1
Hex Size   16.0
Manufacturer Heat Range   20
Seat Type   Flat
Reach   19.00 mm
Thread Diameter   0.551 mm


Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #145 on: Jan 13, 2019, 11:31:22 AM »
Ok Gnarly those look like the ones.  They are copper core plugs, but would it make that much of a difference? :headscratch:

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #146 on: Jan 13, 2019, 11:47:45 AM »
Ok Gnarly those look like the ones.  They are copper core plugs, but would it make that much of a difference? :headscratch:


How many miles on the engine?

I don't believe your engine would tell the difference between those and the iridium at a new install.  Pehaps at 80 to 100K miles.  If the plugs were over-torqued and the seal damaged, then any new plug would fix the problem you had.

Again, I'm just going by my limited experience over the past 50 or so years of being around autos and trucks.

I'd be very interested in what Denso would have to say about those plugs you pulled out.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #147 on: Jan 13, 2019, 03:56:09 PM »

How many miles on the engine?
Gnarls.

233,437KM( 145,082 Miles). 

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  • Crawling with Marlin
Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #148 on: Jan 13, 2019, 05:51:35 PM »
233,437KM( 145,082 Miles).
She’s just now hit middle age
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
Mudder [08:28 PM]:   not try to be a jerk, but are you serious bestgen?
Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
H8PVMNT [03:30 PM]: I can go both ways.

V-Man [OP]

  • Offline 4WD Legend
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Re: Burnt ceramic on spark plugs
« Reply #149 on: Jan 14, 2019, 12:24:36 AM »
She’s just now hit middle age
Yes she is...54...oh you mean the truck... :smack:
« Last Edit: Jan 14, 2019, 02:50:34 PM by V-Man »

 
 
 
 
 

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