Author Topic: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.  (Read 1384 times)

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V-Man

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Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« on: Sep 21, 2018, 08:25:58 PM »
OK. Before I get a pile of stick the hose in the fill tube and squeeze the handle answers, I am not going to be filling the tank while stopped.


I have a question about if the Gas fuel system on a car/truck will allow me to use a pneumatic fuel transfer system, or if the system is too air tight.

The system uses compressed air injected at the top of the Auxiliary tank to push fuel out of the tank and through fuel lines to the main tank.  The fuel transfer is controlled by the use of a valve between the two tanks.  On Diesel trucks and equipment the displaced air in the main tank vents out through the vent tube and  pressure never builds up in the main tank. this allows you to move fuel between tanks.    Aircraft  and large ships use similar systems to transfer fuel from auxiliary or removable tanks.   :thumbs:

Now with a gas fuel system, there is some negative pressure I am told  :psss:which is to keep fumes from leaving the tank.

My question is basically this.

Will I have to add a second line and valve to vent the pressure off well I am transferring the fuel between tanks?            :headscratch:

emsvitil

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #1 on: Sep 21, 2018, 10:08:32 PM »
Worst case, the fuel cap releases air pressure at about 2 psi. (if it doesn't vent thru evap canister)


What's to prevent fuel from being vented?   (overfilling main tank)
Ed
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redneckcustoms13

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #2 on: Sep 22, 2018, 07:03:53 AM »
Unless this auxiliary tank is being mounted lower than the original tank what is the purpose of pressurizing? I have seen plenty of diesels with 100 gal tanks in the bed and a 5/8" hose connecting it to the primary tank with a valve on it. Gravity does the work. When the gauge reads full turn the valve off.
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Gnarly4X

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V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #4 on: Sep 22, 2018, 01:06:56 PM »
. Gravity does the work. When the gauge reads full turn the valve off.

Just curious.... why mess with all that air stuff when you buy and use something like this:
Gnarls. :dunno:

First Gravity feed is illegal is several states, and Canada, UK, Europe,Africa, Aussie land etc.  :nonono:   Second the fuel, Return and vent connections are on the top of the tank. 


pumps fail at all the wrong times.  The tank is sitting right beside the onboard air, and even if  my compressors fail, I can still use a bicycle tire pump to transfer fuel.  :thumbs: I have used this type of transfer system on diesel fuel systems before but never a gas system in a pickup .

good questions guys.

emsvitil

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #5 on: Sep 22, 2018, 04:33:17 PM »
If the aux tank is permanent:

1: Use the electric transfer pump.

2: Top of aux tank needs to be below the fill neck and cap of main.

3:  Top of aux tank needs to be at same level or above top of main.

4:  Move all vent lines from main to aux tank and plug vents on main except for one.

5.   Run vent line from main tank to aux tank.


Gravity will do some of the work for you, but main transfer is pump.

You can't overfill main tank.    When main tank gets full, overflow goes back to aux.


Ed
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Snowtoy

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #6 on: Sep 22, 2018, 06:16:11 PM »
First Gravity feed is illegal is several states, and Canada, UK, Europe,Africa, Aussie land etc.  :nonono:   Second the fuel, Return and vent connections are on the top of the tank. 


pumps fail at all the wrong times.  The tank is sitting right beside the onboard air, and even if  my compressors fail, I can still use a bicycle tire pump to transfer fuel.  :thumbs: I have used this type of transfer system on diesel fuel systems before but never a gas system in a pickup .

Why not run them as dual tanks, and a switch on the dash to change between them?
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V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #7 on: Sep 22, 2018, 08:04:10 PM »
Why not run them as dual tanks, and a switch on the dash to change between them?
If the aux tank is permanent:
It is not. I do not need to carry 300+ (80 Gallon US)liters of fuel everyday.


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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #8 on: Sep 23, 2018, 05:30:54 AM »
I do not need to carry 300+ (80 Gallon US)liters of fuel everyday.


Hey V-Man,

I understand you are an “expedition” traveler.

I’m curious where you intend to travel that requires 80+ gallons of fuel, assuming that you would not have access to any other fuel during your trek?

80 gallons of gasoline - if a vehicle got 15 MPG - would mean that you could essentially travel from San Diego, California to Seattle Washington without stopping to refuel.

Gnarls. :inthedark:

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #9 on: Sep 23, 2018, 08:46:59 AM »
Hey V-Man,

I understand you are an “expedition” traveler.

I’m curious where you intend to travel that requires 80+ gallons of fuel, assuming that you would not have access to any other fuel during your trek?

80 gallons of gasoline - if a vehicle got 15 MPG - would mean that you could essentially travel from San Diego, California to Seattle Washington without stopping to refuel.

Gnarls. :inthedark:

It is not always as simple as traveling A to B.   Lots of the time it is more like A to Z, with a stop and a side trip to b, c, d, e, tried to get to f but got lost and had to retrace back to e.

Plus the gas is needed to make mixed gas for chainsaws, run small generator.
As for were I would Go.  Hudson Bay, James Bay, East out the Quebec Hydro rd( No Fuel all the way out AND back).  There may or may not be usable fuel in the James Bay road up to Hudson Bay. But if not it is a 1800 mile round trip.  When I say usable I mean gas that has not been in a tank at a store for three or four months.  How many fuel filters do you feel like changing a day.. :smack:?

I will also put the tank in for a long trip. Buy my fuel at the reserves and get it 20 cents cheaper then off the reserves.  Current price in town is $1.369 @ liter. That is $5.174 a US Gallon. That is the price in a major metro area, can you imagine what it is in the middle of nowhere.

Snowtoy

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #10 on: Sep 23, 2018, 09:16:56 AM »
Since it isn't permanent, have you considered going with something like this?
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #11 on: Sep 23, 2018, 12:10:01 PM »
Since it isn't permanent, have you considered going with something like this?
A good idea but the thing is weight. Ounces equal pounds, pounds add up to pain. The ones that would fit in the Tacoma are few and far between. They also weight in at 200 to 300 pounds without  fuel.  They need a hoist or four guys to put in or take out of the bed.

My 50 or 60 gallon tanks I will use weight around 70 including mounts, and are DOT approved to be mounted in exposed locations with no guard.
That means that being in a Unexposed location in the bed, they are very safe.




jimbo74

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #12 on: Sep 23, 2018, 07:43:08 PM »
how does the ford f150 that uses gasoline do it?
:usa:

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Snowtoy

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #13 on: Sep 23, 2018, 07:58:28 PM »
A good idea but the thing is weight. Ounces equal pounds, pounds add up to pain. The ones that would fit in the Tacoma are few and far between. They also weight in at 200 to 300 pounds without  fuel.  They need a hoist or four guys to put in or take out of the bed.

My 50 or 60 gallon tanks I will use weight around 70 including mounts, and are DOT approved to be mounted in exposed locations with no guard.
That means that being in a Unexposed location in the bed, they are very safe.

Since you already have the tank, and it isn't going to be permanently mounted, seems like the easiest thing would  be to just use hand pump, or a 12vlt fuel pump and carry a spare, ,over trying to plumb it and pressurize it, or are you required to have a tank that size connected to the vehicles fuel tank.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
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The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #14 on: Sep 23, 2018, 11:02:36 PM »
how does the ford f150 that uses gasoline do it?

Do you mean transfer fuel, or use dual frame tanks?

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #15 on: Sep 23, 2018, 11:11:52 PM »
Since you already have the tank, and it isn't going to be permanently mounted, seems like the easiest thing would  be to just use hand pump, or a 12vlt fuel pump and carry a spare, ,over trying to plumb it and pressurize it, or are you required to have a tank that size connected to the vehicles fuel tank.
Where do you plan to put the hand pump.

The tank size was selected because it will hold fuel equal to TEN gas cans, but still leave room for the compressor and house batteries to be mounted beside it at the front of the truck bed. Also how long do you want to stand beside the truck with a hose in the fill tube for the main tank when it is -20 with a 30 Mph wind or stopping in the middle of the road to refuel every five hours. 

As for electric pumps or pneumatic transfer system, the question still remains will the main tank have to be physically vents during the fuel transfer to allow displaced air to escape.
« Last Edit: Sep 23, 2018, 11:24:01 PM by V-Man »

emsvitil

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #16 on: Sep 23, 2018, 11:25:45 PM »
As for electric pumps or pneumatic transfer system, the question still remains will the main tank have to be physically vents during the fuel transfer to allow displaced air to escape.



I answered that already
Ed
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V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #17 on: Sep 23, 2018, 11:38:03 PM »

I answered that already

No you describe a permanent system, were the filler hose from the gas cap to the main tank will have to be moved.  Fuel lines for pickup and return will have to be rerouted, and the aux tank has to be not below the level of the main tank.  That means the bottom of the aux would be hanging just above the ground. 

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #18 on: Sep 24, 2018, 08:29:20 AM »
My first response.

Main tank cap will release pressure at no more than 2 psi
Ed
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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #19 on: Sep 24, 2018, 09:25:14 AM »
Hey V-Man,

Just my observations....

This thread reads like there is too much over analyzing . There are some excellent transfer tank and systems out there and it’s done all time.  I would think that system, used in your expeditions in extreme conditions, should be very carefully considered.

At 6.3 lbs per gallon, 80 gallons of gas weighs over 500 lbs., so another 50 or 75 lbs. should not be a big factor.

Also, if you are traveling higher elevations, i.e. above 5,000 feet, your MPG will be 50% to 100% less than at sea level. 

If you are traveling in -20 C (-4 degrees F) climate, you will have additional issues to worry about than just how the fuel is transferred between tanks.

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2018, 09:35:10 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #20 on: Sep 24, 2018, 10:14:02 AM »
Ok I think people are getting lost in the numbers.

I will be carrying 70 to 80 Gallons "TOTAL". 
20 Gallons in main tank
50+ Gallons in Aux.

50 Gallons is 315-320lbs.

My Aux tank weights EIGHTEEN (18) pounds
The two supports weight 15 each for a total of 30 pounds.

So the tank( with supports) and the Fuel will weight up to 350 pounds.

The "Bed" tanks plus pumps weight around 250 to 300 WITHOUT fuel.
When you add fuel your have a weigh up to 650 to 700 pounds.

That is just too much weight.

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #21 on: Sep 24, 2018, 10:28:22 AM »
My first response.

Main tank cap will release pressure at no more than 2 psi



Yup saw that now :smack:

Snowtoy

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #22 on: Sep 24, 2018, 10:41:42 AM »
Where do you plan to put the hand pump.

How do you plan to remove fuel to make mixed gas for chainsaws, run a small generator?

Installing a hand crank transfer pump would be as easy as welding on a mount, and they make ones that can move a lot of fuel relatively quickly, like this Fill-Rite FR152.

Quote
The tank size was selected because it will hold fuel equal to TEN gas cans, but still leave room for the compressor and house batteries to be mounted beside it at the front of the truck bed. Also how long do you want to stand beside the truck with a hose in the fill tube for the main tank when it is -20 with a 30 Mph wind or stopping in the middle of the road to refuel every five hours.

Considering where you work/play/explore, one would think you would be well prepared to get out and work under those conditions.

Another option could be using an electric fuel valve, with a check valve, and plumbed into the fuel return line.  It wouldn't technically be gravity fed, as the valve is closed when there is no power to it, and when opened the returning fuel would draw fuel from the aux tank into the main one.  This would negate the need to pressurize the tank, and if the electric valve failed it would be a few minutes to replace with another, or a hand valve.
'90 black X-cab mod'd 3.0, 33's/4.88's, rear ARB, custom bumpers, sliders, safari rack, etc.
'91 Blue X-cab 22re, 35's/5.29's,Truetrac front, ARB rear, dual cases, and custom Safari flatbed, bumper, interior.
The money pit '87 Supra resto/mod

redneckcustoms13

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #23 on: Sep 24, 2018, 10:47:43 AM »
Ok I think people are getting lost in the numbers.

The "Bed" tanks plus pumps weight around 250 to 300 WITHOUT fuel.
When you add fuel your have a weigh up to 650 to 700 pounds.

That is just too much weight.
Not sure where those number came from. My Turner 100gal steel transfer tank with 20' of hose, nozzle, and pump may weigh 75lbs max empty. I pick it up off the ground and set it in the bed of my truck when its empty.
Tank in reference can be seen here.
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2018, 10:54:31 AM by redneckcustoms13 »
80 short bed, longs, hi steer, 4.7 case twin stick, 4.11, 38 tsl, mild built 22r
83 long bed, sas, hi steer, 3rz, w56, 4.56 33s
95 4runner project
06 4 door tacoma street truck

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #24 on: Sep 24, 2018, 01:29:16 PM »
Not sure where those number came from. My Turner 100gal steel transfer tank with 20' of hose, nozzle, and pump may weigh 75lbs max empty. I pick it up off the ground and set it in the bed of my truck when its empty.
Tank in reference can be seen here.


From the tank manufacturers that seel tank( steel) in Canada.  An Aluminum tank up here is close to three grand.   :yikes:

redneckcustoms13

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #25 on: Sep 24, 2018, 05:19:03 PM »
Why not buy one off craigslist in the states and have it shipped?
80 short bed, longs, hi steer, 4.7 case twin stick, 4.11, 38 tsl, mild built 22r
83 long bed, sas, hi steer, 3rz, w56, 4.56 33s
95 4runner project
06 4 door tacoma street truck

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #26 on: Sep 24, 2018, 08:27:36 PM »
Why not buy one off craigslist in the states and have it shipped?

Ok. Were do I start..
1) shipping.  Not many company ship across the border. Second the ones that do charge big money to do it.
2) Brokerage fees.  I have to pay for someone to file the paperwork with Canada Customs, and the fee are expensive.
3) Tax and Duty.  When I say tax I do not mean just SALES tax.  The tax is on the purchase price converted to Canadian, and then the Duty is calculated on the total of the price and taxes. The duty can be small or it can be hundreds of percentage of the value of the item.

For example $20us of cheese has a 280% duty on it.  So you convert that to Canadian $25, then apply the duty of 280% that is $70, that means it cost me $95  plus the shipping and brokerage fees.  Hope that is some of the finest cheese I've ever had.   :disturbed:

You don't want to know how much duty there is on Alcohol from the states.

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #27 on: Sep 24, 2018, 08:38:46 PM »
How do you plan to remove fuel to make mixed gas for chainsaws, run a small generator?

Considering where you work/play/explore, one would think you would be well prepared to get out.

There will be a regular hose from the tank that has a gate valve on it, to allow me to put gas in a can or another truck/car. Also I am already planning to use an electric solenoid controled from the cab, and a manual  ball valve to bleed off the air pressure through the line to the main tank, before I refill the aux.  I will now be adding a second solenoid to vent pressure through a line high on the main tanks fill tube.

As for working out side. Sure I got the clothes, but it is easier to refill the tank from inside well still driving.

It is also safer to not HAVE to leave the truck in a major storm.  With the wind driven snow in a storm at night, you can stand in the middle of the truck and not be able to see the light from the headlite or tail lites. 
So if I have to wait out a storm, I would like to not have to open the doors and lose all the heat, and have snow( which may or not melt in the cab) blowing in and getting everything wet.
« Last Edit: Sep 24, 2018, 08:56:12 PM by V-Man »

emsvitil

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #28 on: Sep 24, 2018, 09:01:37 PM »
So you drive across the border, get it installed, drive home.    (Leaving it uninstalled make it too obvious that you just got it)
Ed
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

V-Man [OP]

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Re: Auxrillry tank to main tank transfer.
« Reply #29 on: Sep 24, 2018, 09:17:29 PM »
So you drive across the border, get it installed, drive home.    (Leaving it uninstalled make it too obvious that you just got it)

So tell me. What do you do for a living? 

Care to lose your job, income, Security clearances, Passport, right to own firearms, have to give up hunting and fishing. That is all after you get to spend some time behind bars..and/or spend lots of time paying huge fines.

Why would I try to "SMUGGLE" a bed tank back from the states,  when I can just bring one back and declare it at customs,  where the first 800 dollars of it's value is tax and duty free. If it did not cost me more then my 800 allowance I would pay nothing at the border.

But since I do not want one of those bed tank, why would I even buy one.

I think you are a bed tank salesman. :yupyup:


 
 
 
 
 

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