Topic: 22r timing

[ajschwartzp15]

I recently upgraded some things pin my 22r.
I have the motoe rebuilt. 020 over, i have a mild crane cam, header, intake, weber 32/36 carb and at this point a factory ignition (because I have had no luck with the DUI from performance distributors, its loud and rattly even after they sent me a second one)
At this point I am curious as to where i should set the timing foe this setup and also what kind of ignition people would recommend over factory. Thanks

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[H8PVMNT]

This is all dependent on fuel, elevation, compression etc. so there is no real "here's where your timing should be".  What you need to do is start at a reasonable spot, anywhere from 0 to 5 degrees base timing at say, 750-800 rpms, take it for a drive, preferably some mild highway hill to get some load. Pull the hill accelerating a bit, see how you like it.  Note what speed you can pull the hill at a certain point.  Then go back down the hill, advance your timing like 2 degrees, repeat the hill driving, noting if you got any better performance. Keep doing this as long as performance gets better until you get it to ping (pre-detonate) under load. When you get there, back of the timing 2 degrees or so.

Carb jetting gets into play too.  Richer and you can typically advance more, leaner you will get your ping sooner.  You can run one step cooler plug and get a bit more advance.

More is not necessarily better, but less is typically less efficient.  Long story short you just need to find that "happy place" for your setup.

Oh and one more thing, a bit more advance in the winter helps with the cold start .  I run maybe 2-3 degrees more advance when our temps get below 30 for the highs.

I also see no reason to run DUI or other hot ignitions unless maybe you can't fins an ignitor when yours goes bad.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

This is all dependent on fuel, elevation, compression etc. so there is no real "here's where your timing should be".  What you need to do is start at a reasonable spot, anywhere from 0 to 5 degrees base timing at say, 750-800 rpms, take it for a drive, preferably some mild highway hill to get some load. Pull the hill accelerating a bit, see how you like it.  Note what speed you can pull the hill at a certain point.  Then go back down the hill, advance your timing like 2 degrees, repeat the hill driving, noting if you got any better performance. Keep doing this as long as performance gets better until you get it to ping (pre-detonate) under load. When you get there, back of the timing 2 degrees or so.

Carb jetting gets into play too.  Richer and you can typically advance more, leaner you will get your ping sooner.  You can run one step cooler plug and get a bit more advance.

More is not necessarily better, but less is typically less efficient.  Long story short you just need to find that "happy place" for your setup.

Oh and one more thing, a bit more advance in the winter helps with the cold start .  I run maybe 2-3 degrees more advance when our temps get below 30 for the highs.

I also see no reason to run DUI or other hot ignitions unless maybe you can't fins an ignitor when yours goes bad.

Awesome, thanks for the input. Im in florida so basically sea level lol.
Ill get it out on the road later and see where it likes to be. Ill start at 5 and give it a shot.
Also, how noticeable should the advance be with or without the vacuum line hooked up. Im assuming not very at idle...

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[H8PVMNT]

At idle it hops maybe 5-6 degrees on mine with the vac hooked up, so a bit.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

At idle it hops maybe 5-6 degrees on mine with the vac hooked up, so a bit.

Yes it did,  and at this point i found 5-7 degrees to be pretty responsive and starts up well.
Im curious where you adjust your valves.
My cam card suggests .010 int and .010 exh.
But they dont sound right after I finished the timing today.  Thanks

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Gnarly4X]

Yes it did,  and at this point i found 5-7 degrees to be pretty responsive and starts up well.
Im curious where you adjust your valves.
My cam card suggests .010 int and .010 exh.
But they dont sound right after I finished the timing today.  Thanks

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Which Crane cam do you have installed?

Gnarls.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

Which Crane cam do you have installed?

Gnarls.

My mistake, its a comp cam.
.445 gross lift
230 duration at .050

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[emsvitil]

Rather than just adjusting the initial timing, you could always recurve your distributor.............


(google it)

[Gnarly4X]

... But they dont sound right after I finished the timing today. 

Are you SURE its rocker tick?

Gnarls.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

Are you SURE its rocker tick?

Gnarls.

Not really, unfortunately. Im not sure how to tell

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[H8PVMNT]

Yes it did,  and at this point i found 5-7 degrees to be pretty responsive and starts up well.
Im curious where you adjust your valves.
My cam card suggests .010 int and .010 exh.
But they dont sound right after I finished the timing today.  Thanks

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Do whatever your cam info says on valve lash.  Ticking after adjusting your timing is probably timing related. Might be pre-detonation, might just sound different.  It's probably all right if it runs good for you. Maybe back off like 1 degree and see if it quiets down.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

 Any preferences on fuel grade for such a motor.?
Reg,med,prem...

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Gnarly4X]

Any preferences on fuel grade for such a motor.?
Reg,med,prem...

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Octane depends on your engine, ignition timing, compression, cam timing, elevation, and who's gas you're burning.

If you are still hearing a tick, is it at idle?

Gnarls.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

Octane depends on your engine, ignition timing, compression, cam timing, elevation, and who's gas you're burning.

If you are still hearing a tick, is it at idle?

Gnarls.

Right on.  And yes.
I did have to repair a few bad exhaust studs that were allowing an exhaust leak. I simply left the valves a .010 after talking to comp and they confirmed that lash

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Gnarly4X]

Typically with the 22R there are 3 common "ticks"... with the engine idling, rockers, exhaust leak at header or coupler, and fuel pump. You can take a piece of PVC, metal tube, or rubber hose, hold one end up to our ear and see if you can isolate the noise. Be careful not to get near the fan while engine is running..

If the engine in pinging under load or hard acceleration, then it's probably ignition timing.

Gnarls.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

Typically with the 22R there are 3 common "ticks"... with the engine idling, rockers, exhaust leak at header or coupler, and fuel pump. You can take a piece of PVC, metal tube, or rubber hose, hold one end up to our ear and see if you can isolate the noise. Be careful not to get near the fan while engine is running..

If the engine in pinging under load or hard acceleration, then it's probably ignition timing.

Gnarls.

I don't believe it pings, though I'm not certain I would know it if I heard it. Currently at ~5*advance.
The majority of the chatter seems towards the rear of the motor.
I wonder if the clutch/flywheel area can be an origin.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[79coyotefrg]

I don't believe it pings, though I'm not certain I would know it if I heard it. Currently at ~5*advance.
The majority of the chatter seems towards the rear of the motor.
I wonder if the clutch/flywheel area can be an origin.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

if you think it is coming from the clutch you better look into that asap.  I had a guy who's flywheel sheered all 6 bolts because he ignored a clatter in that area.  he didnt believe me when I told him he should lift the engine forward and check the bolts. 

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

if you think it is coming from the clutch you better look into that asap.  I had a guy who's flywheel sheered all 6 bolts because he ignored a clatter in that area.  he didnt believe me when I told him he should lift the engine forward and check the bolts.

Not bad advice!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Gnarly4X]

I don't believe it pings, though I'm not certain I would know it if I heard it. Currently at ~5*advance.
The majority of the chatter seems towards the rear of the motor.
I wonder if the clutch/flywheel area can be an origin.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Trying to analyze sounds over the internet is like sniffing flowers through your butt.

You need to figure out what kind of "chatter" you are hearing.

You need to isolate more closely where the noise you are hearing is coming from.

Based on your questions and apparent lack of experience with engine sounds, I would recommend you get to a qualified Toyota mechanic and have the engine checked and tuned.

Gnarls.

[Lewis Hein]

Trying to analyze sounds over the internet is indeed hard.

I have minuscule experience with fixing anything automotive, but sometimes I take a piece of pipe and listen through it to various parts of the engine. Sometimes I even record sound in this way from several suspect parts of the engine and analyze it on the computer to see which one shows the noise I'm hearing. This has, on occasion been immensely helpful.

Based on your questions and apparent lack of experience with engine sounds, I would recommend you get to a qualified Toyota mechanic and have the engine checked and tuned.

I actually disagree with this recommendation. Mechanics can be really convenient, and also helpful. But at the same time, I personally have always been glad I figured things out for myself. Because I don't know hardly nuthin', It's slower, more frustrating, and more confusing, but I usually end the experience both richer and wiser than if I had gone to a mechanic and paid them to deal with it. But at the end of the day, it's your truck, so do what you want.

This is $0.02 of my biased opinion. Feel free to ignore it.

[Gnarly4X]

....
I have minuscule experience with fixing anything automotive...I actually disagree with this recommendation.

ajschwartzp15 appears to have a fairly new modified rebuild and asking questions that indicates he has limited experience.  Noises can be deceptive, but typically can be critical to potential serious damage to an engine unless diagnosed and fixed in a timely manner.

It's been almost a month since his first post and questions.  We can speculate all day long.

It would be a shame if he toasts his engine that a simple fix could have saved it.

That's just my opinion - it may be worthless.

Gnarls.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

Trying to analyze sounds over the internet is like sniffing flowers through your butt.

You need to figure out what kind of "chatter" you are hearing.

You need to isolate more closely where the noise you are hearing is coming from.

Based on your questions and apparent lack of experience with engine sounds, I would recommend you get to a qualified Toyota mechanic and have the engine checked and tuned.

Gnarls.

I probably will at this point, I dont want to burn up a motor with this much money into it.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

I probably will at this point, I dont want to burn up a motor with this much money into it.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

So, my friend from a local shop came by with a stethascope.
He said the bottom end is essentially silent but the rocker area is the loudest. He said it almost sounds like the rockers are hitting the valve cover. But what's strange is we listened the valve cover grommets to the point of leaking and there was no change...

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[redneckcustoms13]

Crank it with the valve cover off and see what's going on. It may make a little mess.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

It turns out my father didnt change the valve springs that were recommended for the high duration cam.
Comp says that can cause the valves to slam closed and woukd require performance springs

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[emsvitil]

Check for coil binding on the valve springs

[Gnarly4X]

It turns out my father didnt change the valve springs that were recommended for the high duration cam.
Comp says that can cause the valves to slam closed and woukd require performance springs

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

The CompCam 268S is a fairly big cam.

How many RPMs are you taching it to?  Have you heard any valve float at high RPM?

How many miles on the valve springs?

Was the head rebuilt? Who's valves are in the head?

With CC's 10/10 valve lash and that valve lift, that cam is probably going to make the rockers a little noisy.

Gnarls.

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

The CompCam 268S is a fairly big cam.

How many RPMs are you taching it to?  Have you heard any valve float at high RPM?

How many miles on the valve springs?

Was the head rebuilt? Who's valves are in the head?

With CC's 10/10 valve lash and that valve lift, that cam is probably going to make the rockers a little noisy.

Gnarls.

I havent driven it yet since the build so, really not many rpms at all. The springs are probably pushing 275k miles.
When i do tach it, it sounds pretty much the same. No sputter or spitting, the head and valves were done recently. Theyre new factory valves. Leak down test reveled or poor exhaust valves so they were all replaced.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[ajschwartzp15 [OP]]

The cam literature actually says "springs required", not just recommended.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[redneckcustoms13]

Coming from my experience with comp and crane (i have ran both in big block and small block gm engines). If they say the springs are required then you better darn well be sure to run their recommended springs. I've had no issue personally because when i ordered the cam I got lifters and springs. Obviously 22r has no lifter but the spring theory still holds true. They know what their cam requires. I have seen quite a few guys in the marine world try to do a quick cam swap to get a lopey idle and more top end rpm/torque and skimp out on replacing the valves. Guess what, it doesn't work. Valves floating at the upper rpm, valves not fully seating at idle and having to idle engine way up high. The list of negatives goes on and on.

Swap the springs and go from there.