Topic: Legendary (un)reliability?

[Gnarly4X]

... If he bought a truck that was used and I mean "used up, it will not as good as a less destroyed truck..

I'll buy what you're selling. 

Gnarls. 

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Thanks, everyone, for your comments and input. I, for one, have learned much.

It is clear to me that I will never be satisfied on this question, either way. And no, I am not basing my arguments solely on my badly abused truck: Almost every Toyota I've been around has had problems that I thought should not have happened. But, as per my above post, I don't consider my experience to be good evidence, either. I agree that the evidence is in favor of Toyota, but I'm not convinced (yet).

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

I find it hard to believe you'd be more happy in a Ford than a TOYOTA...did you buy perhaps the wrong TOYOTA? maybe. I have no idea what has happened to your truck that makes you think it will never be reliable, but that's your opinion. I bet if a Ford lived the same life as your TOYOTA, the Ford would already be patio furniture made in China about 10 years ago

My rationale behind saying I should never have bought a Toyota is this: As I have learned through hard experience, for a 30 year/200,000 mile truck previous maintenance appears to be at least as important as original quality. And finding a well treated ford might be easier than finding a well treated Toyota. But this isn't a discussion about what I should have bought. I'm trying to untangle truth and fiction in the legend of legendary Toyota durability, which was formed at times when I wasn't even alive.

[V-Man]

Does the fact that this plane was made by a British company explain anything? 

Gnarls.

No more like  the planes that got sent to Russia were equal to trucks that had basicly been rolled at highway speed and wrote off.   

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Well, guys, I'm stumped on the airplane. It seems to me that that plane would indeed be a flying death trap, especially if any really important parts were to quit midair.

Perhaps reliability is a matter of perception?? Perhaps I have no idea??

Lewis

[emsvitil]

For planes I can see the scenario where it takes hours to get to the part you're servicing, then hours to put everything back together again..........

[emsvitil]

Also, are we talking hours or man-hours ?

[:)bestgen4runner]

I have extensive experience with the Toyota products. Reliability and quality only compared
I look at it like this, then (1980's) vs now (2010 and up)
Example        Then            vs          now
Water pump  150k+ miles  vs       not common to make it to 100k before replacing
Head gaskets 150k or less. vs.      180k or more
Emissions components failed    What emissions (Lol) vs common to see multiple at or before 100k
Recalls    Maybe one or two per vehicle on average vs 5+ per vehicle model some with 8+ recalls
Timing chains         150k + or -  vs never replace them now
Toyota vehicles now in most ways are the same as back then. Very well engineered vehicle that you can keep forever if it is maintained properly. I am a technician and have been for the last 21 years. If you ask your mechanic what is the best vehicle to buy. You will get two possible answers toyota or Honda because they last and are reliable.
As it sits today most all the auto manufacturers make good vehicle that are reliable.
Here is my opinion of current top three
Import               Domestic
#1 Kia             #1 Ford (far better than the other two)
#2 toyota        #2 Chevy (Good trucks and SUV, cars are still crap)
#3 Honda.       #3 Chrysler (they got lots of problems. To many to list)

Here is why I believe Toyota is still the way to go
They stand behind there product, period!
3.0L head gasket cluster. Every single 3.0 got headgaskets on toyota and many got engines. No time or mileage restriction.
Modern tundra. Serious issues with water introduction into air injection systems. Originally covered for 3/36k
Toyota says now it is covered for 10 years or 150k
I could go on and on about all the times when toyota had made the decision to cover items way way out of warranty when they did not have to.
Ford had a disappointing answer for 6.0 and 6.4l diesel owners who had a grocery list of failings . They said "no"
Chevy and Dodge have done the same when a pattern failure has developed. The big three have hidden behind the warranty time and mileage while Toyota has voluntarily extended warranty periods when a pattern failure has developed. Even when the vehicles are already out of warranty.
Why do they do such a thing?
Because Toyota prides itself as being a reliable long lasting care you can keep forever.

[:)bestgen4runner]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/amp/which-car-ranks-highest-quality-surprisingly-it-s-kia-n775161

https://www.kia.com/us/en/content/why-kia/quality/overview

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2016/06/22/kia-just-accomplished-something-no-automaker-has-done-in-27-years.html

https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/kia-has-suddenly-become-one-of-the-most-reliable-car-brands-259590

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/comments/2ng2zb/i_keep_hearing_kia_has_improved_their_reliability/

Kia has offered a 10 year 100k warranty for quite some time now. They have used the information gathered from failures to improve the product. At this point (2011 and newer) it is rare to see a failure on a Kia. It makes sense when you think about it. Less warranty repairs of any kind cost Kia less money and customers continue to buy the product because they don't have any issues. I have a 2015 Sportage. It is one of the nicest cars we have ever owned. Over 63k and not a single issue. If you take the time to read the above articles you will see they are the new standard.

[300k]

Import               Domestic
#1 TOYOTA         #1 Ford (almost junk)
#2 TOYOTA         #2 Chevy (junk)
#3 TOYOTA         #3 Chrysler (super junk, but turbocharged junk)

I have adjusted your list to better suit reality

[Gnarly4X]

Good discussion...  I couldn't help myself!!.... 

Top-Ranked Cars, Trucks, and SUVs in the J.D. Power 2017 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study

The annual J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS) is a measure of reliability, asking original owners of 3-year-old vehicles how dependable their vehicles have been during the prior 12 months.

http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles/jd-power-studies/top-ranked-cars-trucks-and-suvs-jd-power-2017-us-vehicle

10 out of 18 vehicles … TOYOTA!!!! … Is that accurate? Or is the data collected by JD Power just Bravo Sierra?

I have a lot of respect for the “hands-on” people who actually work on and repair things. Their opinions are very valid for the degree of experience they have.  When my home heat pump went out, I ask my HVAC guy (Who makes his living – about 20 years – working on heat pumps and AC units that see one of the hottest climates in the USA) what he thought about the Trane unit he was repairing at my home.  He said “It’s a quality unit”.  I asked why.  He said “I don’t get to work on them very much”.

I believe that the warranty offer included in many manufacturer’s products is often a marketing tool.  Because a product has a Life Time Warranty does NOT mean it is a higher quality product (MTTF - mean time to failure) than the same alternate product with only 90-day warranty.

Gnarls.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Yes, very good discussion. Some of the things said here are things I haven't heard before -- for instance about Toyota choosing to cover things that were out of warranty. Also, I read an eye-opening article the other day about the Duramax engine. Guess what: They begin the article talking about the legendary durability "(with proper maintenance)" of the Duramax, but spend the next little while talking about the troubles that plagued it in the first few generations.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2017/06/dissecting-duramax-getting-inside-six-generations-gms-6-6l-diesel-dominator/

To be fair, it's not like Toyota's first V6 was such a great engine. But I have been struck by BigMike's point about the life cycle of Toyota engines.

Also, the other day I was strongly considering ditching my truck and buying a used Dodge ram. I have known of some Dodges that were really good trucks: one lives down the road from me. However, doing some research on what might be wrong with a 1998 Dodge at 250k was enough to scare me away. Even if some were really good, the number that weren't makes me hesitate.

[:)bestgen4runner]

I have extensive experience with the Toyota products. Reliability and quality only compared
I look at it like this, then (1980's) vs now (2010 and up)
Example        Then            vs          now
Water pump  150k+ miles  vs       not common to make it to 100k before replacing
Head gaskets 150k or less. vs.      180k or more
Emissions components failed    What emissions (Lol) vs common to see multiple at or before 100k
Recalls    Maybe one or two per vehicle on average vs 5+ per vehicle model some with 8+ recalls
Timing chains         150k + or -  vs never replace them now
Toyota vehicles now in most ways are the same as back then. Very well engineered vehicle that you can keep forever if it is maintained properly. I am a technician and have been for the last 21 years. If you ask your mechanic what is the best vehicle to buy. You will get two possible answers toyota or Honda because they last and are reliable.
As it sits today most all the auto manufacturers make good vehicle that are reliable.
Here is my opinion of current top three
Import               Domestic
#1 Kia             #1 Ford (far better than the other two)
#2 toyota        #2 Chevy (Good trucks and SUV, cars are still crap)
#3 Honda.       #3 Chrysler (they got lots of problems. To many to list)

Here is why I believe Toyota is still the way to go
They stand behind there product, period!
3.0L head gasket cluster. Every single 3.0 got headgaskets on toyota and many got engines. No time or mileage restriction.
Modern tundra. Serious issues with water introduction into air injection systems. Originally covered for 3/36k
Toyota says now it is covered for 10 years or 150k
I could go on and on about all the times when toyota had made the decision to cover items way way out of warranty when they did not have to.
Ford had a disappointing answer for 6.0 and 6.4l diesel owners who had a grocery list of failings . They said "no"
Chevy and Dodge have done the same when a pattern failure has developed. The big three have hidden behind the warranty time and mileage while Toyota has voluntarily extended warranty periods when a pattern failure has developed. Even when the vehicles are already out of warranty.
Why do they do such a thing?
Because Toyota prides itself as being a reliable long lasting care you can keep forever.

Daihatsu not on the List 

[Gnarly4X]

Daihatsu not on the List 

Daihatsu is a wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota. 

Gnarls. 

[V-Man]

Daihatsu is a wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota. 

Gnarls. 

Don't forget Hino. Also the fact that 90% of the lift truck( fork lifts) in the warehouses are toyota. They are also running 22r Motors of propane.. 

Anyone know where to get a propane kit for their 22?

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Toyota vehicles now in most ways are the same as back then. Very well engineered vehicle that you can keep forever if it is maintained properly.

I think I see light dawning and revealing the profound depths of my ignorance. Do there exist vehicles that you can not keep indefinitely, even with proper maintenance?

The thing is, nearly all my direct experience is with Toyotas, and the rest with Hondas. When something breaks on a car I maintain or have helped to maintain, it always feels like it shouldn't have done that. And it's always a Toyota because, well... that's almost the only kind of car I or my family have ever driven for almost as long as I can remember.

My indirect experience, with whatever vehicle, is always positive. I'm beginning to worry about that, as in it might be meaningless. For a true comparison, I feel like I would need to own and maintain a Ford, Chevy, or Dodge for 20 years. Or be a mechanic myself, working on all makes of cars for 20 years.

[Stocker]

Sometimes, when I'm not quite sure how to best describe something, I say it is "interesting". This thread has been, well..... interesting.

I have owned the truck in my avatar for 40 years. It has been, by most measurements, reliable. And reasonably well maintained. And it has had a fair amount of repairs done to it over the years, as you might imagine.

What does all this mean, what conclusions can be drawn from my experiences? Beat the hell out of me. It just seems to fit this thread.

[utherjorge]

I'm a total noober here, but as always, your mileage may vary.

I had a 2004 Toyota Sienna that was one of the worst heaps that I've ever owned. Spoke to a Toyota service manager a month or so ago socially, and he was going to fight me at first, until I told him what year it was. "Yeah, that one was a piece of $%^t."

I had a 2001 Toyota Tundra. Loved it, mostly...until the V6 turned to complete sludge. This problem coincided with my first child, so I got a Honda Accord out of it that was bulletproof.

Speaking of "mileage may vary....." One of my vehicles now is a 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan. Once I stopped it from snacking on front rotors...it's been literally perfect, knock on wood. Apparently, it's a unicorn.

[:)bestgen4runner]

I'm a total noober here, but as always, your mileage may vary.

I had a 2004 Toyota Sienna that was one of the worst heaps that I've ever owned. Spoke to a Toyota service manager a month or so ago socially, and he was going to fight me at first, until I told him what year it was. "Yeah, that one was a piece of $%^t."

I had a 2001 Toyota Tundra. Loved it, mostly...until the V6 turned to complete sludge. This problem coincided with my first child, so I got a Honda Accord out of it that was bulletproof.

Speaking of "mileage may vary....." One of my vehicles now is a 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan. Once I stopped it from snacking on front rotors...it's been literally perfect, knock on wood. Apparently, it's a unicorn.

2004 was the first year of that body style of Sienna. The list of issues is quite long.
Lesson, don't ever buy the first year of any model. That will never change. Even a Toyota

The tundra v6 from 2001 is a great motor. Someone did not change the oil as often as they should have or used a different brand of oil each service.
Lesson, change the oil every 5k, use quality oil, and stick with the same brand of oil. No mixing (bad idea)

Your Caravan is notorious for eating transmissions. Usually one every 100k, approximately.

[utherjorge]

RE: Sienna. Exactly what the service manager said. I was much more disappointed by Toyota not standing behind any repair of it, and the local dealership at the time was 10x worse.

RE: Tundra. I bought it used, so you are probably right. Still, at 40k miles with a history of servicing through a (different) dealer, for it to be a sludge monster at that mileage was a surprise.

RE: Grand Caravan. BITE YOUR TONGUE. It has 88k miles now.

My 2003 Suburban has nothing but typical problems, if any, and they're easy to fix, or have been thus far. Pretty happy with it, all around.

[:)bestgen4runner]

RE: Sienna. Exactly what the service manager said. I was much more disappointed by Toyota not standing behind any repair of it, and the local dealership at the time was 10x worse.

RE: Tundra. I bought it used, so you are probably right. Still, at 40k miles with a history of servicing through a (different) dealer, for it to be a sludge monster at that mileage was a surprise.

RE: Grand Caravan. BITE YOUR TONGUE. It has 88k miles now.

My 2003 Suburban has nothing but typical problems, if any, and they're easy to fix, or have been thus far. Pretty happy with it, all around.

Sell it now!!!!!!!!!

[blackdiamond]

RE: Sienna. Exactly what the service manager said. I was much more disappointed by Toyota not standing behind any repair of it, and the local dealership at the time was 10x worse.

RE: Tundra. I bought it used, so you are probably right. Still, at 40k miles with a history of servicing through a (different) dealer, for it to be a sludge monster at that mileage was a surprise.

RE: Grand Caravan. BITE YOUR TONGUE. It has 88k miles now.

My 2003 Suburban has nothing but typical problems, if any, and they're easy to fix, or have been thus far. Pretty happy with it, all around.

The 4.7l motor in the original Tundra's is an excellent engine and shouldn't "sludge up" unless something was done wrong with its service.

[utherjorge]

It was the V6, the 3.4.

[kneedownnate]

Sometimes, when I'm not quite sure how to best describe something, I say it is "interesting". This thread has been, well..... interesting.

I have owned the truck in my avatar for 40 years. It has been, by most measurements, reliable. And reasonably well maintained. And it has had a fair amount of repairs done to it over the years, as you might imagine.

What does all this mean, what conclusions can be drawn from my experiences? Beat the hell out of me. It just seems to fit this thread.

All things considered, I'd say it's been incredibly reliable!  Got into and out of sticky situations, was a great bear hunting rig for several years, and hauled tons of wood and about everything except ass... 

[Rocksurfer]

 

Does the fact that this plane was made by a British company explain anything? 

Gnarls.

Electronics by Lucas.....

[blackdiamond]

I fear that my 2004 Toyota Sequoia with 193,000 miles is about to let me down. I noticed the other day that one of the cosmetic plastic caps is missing from a screw in the passenger side front door. It's only visible when the door is open which is why I hadn't noticed it before. I will be scheduling an appointment with the dealer to have full diagnostic check done. It may be time to trade it in.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Haha. Trade it in to me -- I'll trade you a pickup so beat up that a plastic cap more or less is just part of the decór.

That said this thread has gone a long way towards convincing me. Mostly what I've heard before is endless debate with no real evidence; although I'm not convinced, I'm definitely more persuaded than I was before.

And my lack of convincement is no reflection on the arguments presented by anyone here -- I just feel sometimes, when presented with evidence, that the ghosts of mistakes past are ready to haunt me if I accept it without sufficient scrutiny. This probably stems from being in a field where jumping to conclusions could cause me to make mistakes that no-one else might catch.

[Gnarly4X]

That said this thread has gone a long way towards convincing me. Mostly what I've heard before is endless debate with no real evidence; although I'm not convinced, I'm definitely more persuaded than I was before.

Hey Lewis,

You are a skeptic.  I am a skeptic.  However, your level of skepticism in the face of SO much self-evidence about the reliability of Toyota vehicles to so many people is interesting.

You say...“Mostly what I've heard before is endless debate with no real evidence”….

No real evidence? ….. it appears conceptual semantics may be at play here.

No …. do you mean NONE?

Real… do you mean actually existing and occurring in fact - not imagined or supposed?

Evidence…. do you mean the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid?

You have “experience” that you refer to when describing your truck and its condition and "unreliability" issues.

One definition of experience is simply the practical contact with and observation of facts or events.  Are there any “facts” about Toyota vehicles that you believe?  Are any of your observations of facts, testimonies, historical published data, and vehicle comparisons meaningful to you?

The preponderance of evidence regarding Toyota vehicles and the history of their reliability is so demonstrative, I can’t imagine NOT being totally convinced.

So... I’m skeptical of your skepticism.

Gnarls.