Topic: Legendary (un)reliability?

[Lewis Hein]

I'm going to start a great, big, but hopefully civil and highly instructive debate. Ready, everyone?


Everywhere I go, people say that Toyotas are famously reliable, durable, etc. However, this seems to directly contradict my own experience: Something is ALWAYS wrong with every Toyota I've been around. Especially with my truck something large or small is always broken. Sometimes it's age-related (e.g. front axle seal replacement, clutch master cylinder leak), sometimes previous owner related (e.g. broken washer fluid pump). But the fixing never, ever stops.

It's not just my rig, either. This site is full of engine rebuilds, transmission rebuilds, carb tuning, etc. Even on vehicles with history I personally know, it's the same story. One pickup needed a new clutch at 80,000 miles, and a new starter motor and thermostat before then. One 90s 4runner had engine problems from day 1. One 2000s Hilux needed major engine work and a new transmission before 100,000. One 2000s Tacoma had bad brakes, leaks in the power steering, and a new clutch. And the list goes on.

Meanwhile, dodge people, GM people, and ford people will all talk your ear off about the "legendary reliability" of their favorite make. I've known of cars of all these brands that just kept on going with ZERO maintenance, and I've never known a Toyota that did.

Do we conclude that Toyotas are  over-hyped and over-priced? If not, what do we conclude?

[63W]

You must be drunk .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[300k]

complaining about a 300,000 mile vehicle being worn out seems a little "captain obvious"...they get some miles on them, of course the 30 year old seals aren't going to make it. That Autozone starter/alternator/fuel pump/water pump etc etc etc that the previous owner put on isn't exactly the highest quality part, it will fail.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

I wouldn't complain, except that its a lot worse than problems at 300,000. And meanwhile, I know of American made vehicles whose owners have never had to do much other than oil changes for 150,000-200,000 miles, but not a single Toyota.

I'm not so much contending that the general wisdom is wrong as much as I am puzzled by the fact the my own experience shows most other makes ahead of Toyota in durability, even for cars that have always been serviced by the dealer. I must have read or heard a dozen opinions either way in search of good, solid evidence behind (or against) the conventional wisdom that Toyota rules the roost. It all eventually just leaves me guessing which is where I was to start with.

I'm tired of guessing. I want facts. Which is why I tried to start a debate in a knowledgeable community of people whose statements I have some reason to believe over the internet's random fact generator.

[BigMike]

So much that could be commented on here but I wanted to leave just this despite not having time to fully participate:

Machines are machines: They have to wear out and they must fail eventually. There is no such thing as a machine or machine component lasting a lifetime. To come close would require a design factor so astronomically high that it would be become economically infeasible.

For example, lifetime warranties are a full-on 100% gimmick. One company in our industry claims to offer a "lifetime guarantee" on their products of which they make a minimum 10:1 ratio on (seriously: a minimum of a 10-to-1 price ratio of a new product is a requirement of theirs). The strategy is simple: Make a product so cheap (low reliability) and in such a large volume (impossible quality control) that a product can fail and be replaced free-of-charge 9 times and they'd still have made a profit on the sale. For example, if this company sells a low range t/case gear kit for $550 then you can be damn sure their cost is no higher than $55, or if they sell a twin stick kit for $190 then you can be damn sure their cost is no higher than $19. Seriously. For the entire kit. How else do you think companies like AutoZone, who also live by a lifetime guarantee of machine parts that cannot last a lifetime, can stay in business? That pair of Harbor Freight pliers you bought for $8 probably only cost them 40-cents to manufacture.

Let's put this into an additional perspective: If we agree that a Genuine Toyota Part made in Japan is of a higher quality designed to last longer in service than a part sold by AutoZone, then why doesn't Toyota offer a lifetime guarantee on their parts? What, is Toyota not good enough? Is the Japanese manufacturing process not good enough? Is AutoZone selling parts with far higher quality? Better yet, why doesn't Toyota have a lifetime guarantee on every Toyota you've had issues with? Are Toyota vehicles so unreliable that Corporate Toyota cannot afford to guarantee them for life......but yet some Chinese manufacture can?

We can all share stories of how my X Toyota model went X miles and I only had X things break and it only cost me X through it's lifetime. But the only way to answer your question is to 1) Purchase a brand new unmodified Toyota yourself, 2) only use the vehicle for its original intent, and 3) perform all proper scheduled maintenance to maximize the possibility of the machine lasting as long as possible. Then and only then will you be able to know how reliable a Toyota is--or isn't, because as 300k said unless you do a full tear down and rebuild with proper OEM or OEM-quality parts you'll never know what was done to the machine by the prior owner(s) or how it was (mis)treated.



BigMike

Edit: Sorry I gotta share mine We bought a brand-new 2000 V8 Toyota Tundra and drove the snot out of it primarily as a tow rig for over 400K miles with gross vehicle & trailer loads at times exceeding 14,000-lbs and all we ever had to replace was starter and alternator brushes and a radiator (plastic end-tank began leaking around 300K miles). We sold it last year in excellent running condition, but holy cow that truck was amazingly reliable for sure.

[BigMike]

how long would this have been if you have had time to participate? 

Once I began that third paragraph it went all downhill from there

[blackdiamond]

My experience with Toyota has been only positive. My first vehicle was my 85 truck that truthfully appeared to not be in the best condition when it was purchased and even after being turned into a crawler it crossed the country multiple times, wheeled Moab, and never had a major issue.  I got it with a ton of miles on the odometer. My 89 4Runner was almost entirely rebuilt when I got it 2007 but has been pretty flawless since. I had a brand new 2004 Tundra that was perfect while I owned it though almost any new car should have done the same. My current 2004 Sequoia arrived with 83,000 miles and is now close to 190,000 and has had nothing but regular maintenance. The battery has been the only failure.  My 2008 Civic arrived with <36,000 miles and is just over 100,000 now and has only had one part failure that was the oil pump flange breaking off. It has a nearly perfect record but hasn't match the Tundra with close to 100,000 more miles.  Both cars are serviced by an excellent independent mechanic that works only on Honda and Toyota and is Toyota University trained. Using OEM parts is common and seems to lead to success.

[emsvitil]

This may be related, but I've noticed that Toyota will use parts for years and years carrying them forward to new models.

And I've gotten replacement parts for vehicles that have been out of production for decades and the parts have been 'improved' and strengthened were the failure had occurred......

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

We can all share stories of how my X Toyota model went X miles and I only had X things break and it only cost me X through it's lifetime. But the only way to answer your question is to 1) Purchase a brand new unmodified Toyota yourself, 2) only use the vehicle for its original intent, and 3) perform all proper scheduled maintenance to maximize the possibility of the machine lasting as long as possible. Then and only then will you be able to know how reliable a Toyota is--or isn't, because as 300k said unless you do a full tear down and rebuild with proper OEM or OEM-quality parts you'll never know what was done to the machine by the prior owner(s) or how it was (mis)treated.

The I've read SO many stories about "My X brand truck went Y miles with only normal maintenance", which is useless. What, exactly, is "normal" maintenance? Is a new transmission every year "normal maintenance" for a Jeep (even though it's build by Aisin)? The content in this thread, in contrast, seems well thought out and useful.

I think many of the Toyotas I've been around have had much reliability taken out of them by abuse. The Hilux that needed engine work and a new transmission was used to train multiple people to drive a stick shift over the years, and then driven 40 miles on dry pavement in 4WD by someone who didn't know what they were doing. The troubled Tacoma in my earlier post did daily hard work on a cattle ranch. Detective work on my truck suggests that it, too has had a hard life: Being towed and/or driven for what must have been hundreds of miles with the E-brake on, valves adjusted with zero clearance, towed for probably 100,000+ miles with the driveline still connected, timing adjusted to 17 deg BTDC, etc.

I don't know whether to be amazed that my pickup still runs or aghast at the hundreds of dollars of repair bills it's run up (still less than $1000 for now). But that's not really my point. I've been around other vehicles that had 100-200k and supposedly had nothing but fluid and belt changes. Surely, they've been subjected to some abuse as well, but I don't have as good information on that. I will remark, though, that careful people who buy new vehicles seem to have much less trouble.

In the absence of said good information, I can either assume the abuse profile for other makes is similar to the Toyotas I've been around and conclude that Toyota is overrated. Or I can assume that my the Toyotas in my sample are unduly abused. I have no good, evidence-based reason behind either assumption. Sure, I read everywhere about the "Legendary durability" of the Toyota brand. But however well founded, that's more a conclusion than a piece of evidence. And I am scared of accepting conclusions based on evidence that I didn't see.

Reliability aside, I am sold on how easy it is to work on my 22R pickup and the fact that Toyota is still selling many repair parts.

[:)bestgen4runner]

 

[kneedownnate]

Had my 91 since about 2001/2002.  It has been the opitimal super reliable toyota.  Any vehicle can be very reliable if well cared for, but a poorly engineered or built vehicle is ultimately doomed to fail. 

[Gnarly4X]

Again, Lewis, you seem to enjoy abnormal-out-of-the-box thinking.

I don’t believe there is much logical, intellectual, or even anecdotal debate here.

There is SO much evidence regarding Toyota reliability it’s an absurdity to debate it.

I’m on my 4th Toyota truck and 14th Toyota vehicle since 1986.  It would take too long and too many pages to describe the incredible reliability I’ve experienced.

Why do I see hundreds of Toyota trucks being towed and going to south of the border?  I don’t see them towing any Fords!

Today in automotive racing, Toyota is kicking a$$ in NASCAR, arguably a testimony to Toyota’s automotive engineering genius, while maintaining the most reliable production car maker on the planet.

Toyota is the largest automobile manufacturer in the world and for decades has historically dominated the top 10 list of the most reliable cars in the world in every category.

Lewis, if you want evidence of Toyota reliability and automotive engineering you need to do some research.  In about 10 minutes of internet research, alone, there should be enough factual evidence to satisfy a reasonably skeptical person….. that may not be you? 

Maintenance and abuse factors are another topic, however there is plenty of research and published studies on that.  Again, Toyota has historically dominated the top 10, and has 5 models on the list of 10 car manufacturers rated as the least expensive to maintain.

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

:)bestgen4runner.... eating popcorn can be hazardous to your health!

Gnarls.

[V-Man]

Once I began that third paragraph it went all downhill from there

Without brakes.  Funny how a quick comment can turn into a novel before you know it.

[BigMike]

This may be related, but I've noticed that Toyota will use parts for years and years carrying them forward to new models.

My knowledge is specific to Toyota (more on this below) but I think emsvitil makes a strong point and to expound it is worthy to note that Toyota has used approximately a 10-year engine cycle schedule. Consider the following:
22R: 1981-1990
22R-E: 1985-1995
3RZ-FE: 1995-2004
2TR-FE: 2005-2015 (2nd gen Tacoma), 2016+ (3rd gen Tacoma)
5VZ-FE: 1995-2004
2UZ-FE: 2000-2009 (1st + 2nd gen Tundra)

And then there are particularly good engines that were in production for even longer:
1FZ-FE: 1993-2007 -- 14 yrs
4A-GE (my fav engine of all time): 1983-1998 -- 15 yrs
3S-GE: 1984-2000 -- 16 yrs
2F: 1975-1988 -- 23 yrs

....and so on. Conversely, you look at Nissan, and during a similar 10-year lifespan of the Hardbody (1987-97) according to Wikipedia there were 12 different engines used. I remember when Marlin was a general automotive mechanic he would complain how there were so many different date ranges for Nissan engines that it was a PITA to get the right parts ordered.

Now back to my comment about my knowledge being specific to Toyota: I am not sure if Ford, GM, or Chrysler have such an amazing track record of being able to run the same engine for a solid decade while yet also maintaining leading sells numbers across multiple vehicle platforms. I think this alone speaks volumes for why Toyota's are reliable.

My friend who works for Mercedes says it this way: Mercedes is more cool than Toyota because they use the newest unproven technology however Mercedes breaks down all the time and is so unreliable because they use the newest unproven engine technology. Many people myself included say Toyota is boring. In today's generation of fast food and instant movies on TV it's easy to give up reliability for I-want-it-now-excitement. Toyota is consistently underpowered with fewer options than competing models (such as the 3rd gen Tacoma which the Colorado and Canyon beat out on many performance aspects) but yet the first quarter of sales saw the Tacoma outselling their 2nd place, 3rd place, and 4th place competitors ALL COMBINED. It is insane.............and that is from their reliability -- both perceived and proven.

Finally, to Lewis Hein's credit, I have not seen anyone comment on how unreliable non-Toyota models are. Sure this is a forum specific to the Toyota brand, but just because we all can brag about how reliable our Toyota X model is that doesn't preclude the fact that other manufacture X models aren't also similarly just as reliable. I'd like to see some people comment on negative experiences they've had with non-Toyota vehicles. That would help provide info on both sides of the argument.

Regards,
BigMike

[V-Man]

Had a 1996 honda civic.....ground the bottom of the oil down till it started to leak oil...driving thru "SNOW DRIFTS". What did they make my oil pan out of, tin foil?. 

[Gnarly4X]

.... That would help provide info on both sides of the argument.

Regards,
BigMike

There is no argument.

Gnarls. 

[blackdiamond]

Do you remember the Chevrolet/GM commercial a few years ago that proclaimed that they had matched Toyota's quality?  Seems like they not only acknowledged Toyota as the standard for quality, but they also admitted to not having matched it in the past.

[BigMike]

Do you remember the Chevrolet/GM commercial a few years ago that proclaimed that they had matched Toyota's quality?  Seems like they not only acknowledged Toyota as the standard for quality, but they also admitted to not having matched it in the past.

Wow, great points!!

[redneckcustoms13]

I suppose I will chime in. Growing up my father was die hard bow tie big block fan. He raised me knowing that Chevrolet was the way and nothing else. Once I was old enough to drive (2005) I noticed that most of our hunting friends chose Toyota or samurai due to them being reliable, compact, and down right tough. I can remember having my fullsize Chevrolet down in a creek bottom trying to pull out a bronco2 that had been stuck there for a few days. My friend shows up talking all this nonsense about how he had crossed this same bottom earlier and it was because we were not in a Toyota that we were not making it. I rolled my eyes and just called him some silly name. Low and behold the guy locks his hubs and launches out across this black seemingly bottomless swamp in 1st geat high range on the Rev limiter  (96 teg cab taco, 3rz, w59, stock case, 32" mud tires) That moment is when I decided I woulf have to veer from my father's path of gm. Not knocking him or the old tried and true gm products of back in the day, just saying I found a better path.

Now we reach today, I've owned over 50 Toyota vehicle's since and con honestly tell you if it is not a 3.0 v6 I would rely on any of the ones I've had. I have had to rebuild many Toyota engines. Every one of them due to owners not taking proper care of them. Myself included in that previous statement. I've killed a few 22r engines. They were all my fault.

Toyota has and still produces some of the most reliable and toughest pickups and suv that you could own. If anyone wants to believe otherwise I welcome them to come drive my 06 taco with 353k, my wife's 99 4runner with over 300k. My 80 that I built a trail truck out of had almost 700,000 miles on the engine before my uncle borrowed it from me and submerged it in a creek causing it to bend a rod.

WITH PROPER MAINTENANCE AND CARE toyota is one of the most reliable and durable automobile's hands down.

[gdmcondev]

I can relate.  My 1987 TOY 22r at 147000 miles has has a Radiator, Clutch, Brakes, Alternator, Oil Change w/ CASTROL GTX every 5,000. Prestone every season.  Now have a blown head gasket.

My 1994 F150, 300 I6, has 325000 miles. AC blows cold, taught two teenage boys how to drive is still parked at the Dorms (Junior Year),  Oil change every 5000 Penz 10-30. Brakes, Prestone every season.

I love my TOY,. love my F150. F150 more reliable.

[Gnarly4X]

I can relate.  My 1987 TOY 22r at 147000 miles has has a Radiator, Clutch, Brakes, Alternator, Oil Change w/ CASTROL GTX every 5,000. Prestone every season.  Now have a blown head gasket.

My 1994 F150, 300 I6, has 325000 miles. AC blows cold, taught two teenage boys how to drive is still parked at the Dorms (Junior Year),  Oil change every 5000 Penz 10-30. Brakes, Prestone every season.

I love my TOY,. love my F150. F150 more reliable.

gdmcondev,

If you owned your 1994 F150 for 23 years, what parts have you had to replace and what repairs have you had to do to it?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

There many variables to a vehicle's “life”.  Assuming we are not talking about commercial vehicle use…..

There are plenty of testimonials about the reliability and longevity of a vehicle for many different brands.

The factors that make a vehicle’s life "more" reliable and longer in miles driven are closely dependent on 2 main conditions.

One, maintenance, both preventative and recommended.  Was the vehicle diligently maintained?

Two, application of use, or how the vehicle was driven.  Was it driven back and forth to work 5 days a week down the freeway.  Or, was it used to frequently tow a travel trailer?  What is abused by a street racer or a person who drives it until it breaks down?

I believe there is another factor, I call it environmental.  Did the vehicle live in Phoenix Arizona (hot and dry), International Falls Minnesota (really cold), Washington (really wet), or in high elevation Santa Fe, New Mexico?

Today, I may be slightly anal about care, preventative maintenance and tune ups, but I’ve always gotten extended miles out of my vehicles, and the first person that came to buy one, when I sold it, always bought it.

Taking extra care of your vehicle, doing preventative and recommended periodic maintenance will usually extend the mileage and life of a vehicle.

With all that said, there is still lots of evidence and history of the automotive manufacturer's that have the highest reliability statistics.

Gnarls.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

Again, Lewis, you seem to enjoy abnormal-out-of-the-box thinking.

I don’t believe there is much logical, intellectual, or even anecdotal debate here.

There is SO much evidence regarding Toyota reliability it’s an absurdity to debate it.

Well... you may have a point. But bear in mind: I have many fewer years of experience, which translates into knowing much less and having had less exposure to the evidence you refer to. Plus, I'm in no way a serious off-roader. Sometimes, places I want or need to go happen to be at the end of rough, steep, muddy, or snowy roads. Four wheel drive and low range are useful at these times, so I use them.

Knowing much less means proportionately more questions. Plus, I try to keep a high standard of evidence, and finding convincing evidence from a random internet search is HARD.

I’m on my 4th Toyota truck and 14th Toyota vehicle since 1986.  It would take too long and too many pages to describe the incredible reliability I’ve experienced.

I wasn't even alive in 1986. When I have several decades of experience and have owned 14 Toyotas, I may feel more confident to draw my own conclusions. Until then...

Why do I see hundreds of Toyota trucks being towed and going to south of the border?  I don’t see them towing any Fords!

Today in automotive racing, Toyota is kicking a$$ in NASCAR, arguably a testimony to Toyota’s automotive engineering genius, while maintaining the most reliable production car maker on the planet.

Toyota is the largest automobile manufacturer in the world and for decades has historically dominated the top 10 list of the most reliable cars in the world in every category.

I can't speak to Toyota in NASCAR, 'cause it's one of the many things I know nothing about. As I commented in your thread about southward-bound Toyotas, some parts of the world may be on to things we missed. But I don't view my observations in this regard as solid enough proof for drawing firm conclusions.

Lewis, if you want evidence of Toyota reliability and automotive engineering you need to do some research.  In about 10 minutes of internet research, alone, there should be enough factual evidence to satisfy a reasonably skeptical person….. that may not be you? 

I am probably unreasonably skeptical. Or scared of confirmation bias and hidden systematic errors in data collection, which comes to the same thing. I have done many hours of research; depending on where I start, I can come to completely opposite conclusions on this topic. Perhaps I don't know what I should be researching? Engine design? Number of parts in the vehicle? MTBF? What commonly breaks when on all makes ever made? Reliability with some slippery standard of "Proper maintenance"? Some of these things cannot even be accurately measured!

Maintenance and abuse factors are another topic, however there is plenty of research and published studies on that.  Again, Toyota has historically dominated the top 10, and has 5 models on the list of 10 car manufacturers rated as the least expensive to maintain.

Whose list? How did they get it? How do we know their data aren't biased? These types of questions plague me when I consider the majority of what I've found online about this topic.

With all that said, there is still lots of evidence and history of the automotive manufacturer's that have the highest reliability statistics.

Same questions as above, that never stop plaguing me. Whose evidence? Where did it come from? How do we know if it is biased or not?
Special test data imperfectly simulate real-world use over decades and hundreds of thousands of miles. Survey data may be biased by pre-existing reputation. And I haven't experienced much of said history. That leaves me with precious little good evidence to go on.

There is no argument.

Gnarls. 

Ergo, I'm not arguing with you enough! 

That said, I appreciate your continued willingness to share your experience. Life's not long enough to see it all myself.

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

My knowledge is specific to Toyota (more on this below) but I think emsvitil makes a strong point and to expound it is worthy to note that Toyota has used approximately a 10-year engine cycle schedule. Consider the following:
22R: 1981-1990
22R-E: 1985-1995
3RZ-FE: 1995-2004
2TR-FE: 2005-2015 (2nd gen Tacoma), 2016+ (3rd gen Tacoma)
5VZ-FE: 1995-2004
2UZ-FE: 2000-2009 (1st + 2nd gen Tundra)

And then there are particularly good engines that were in production for even longer:
1FZ-FE: 1993-2007 -- 14 yrs
4A-GE (my fav engine of all time): 1983-1998 -- 15 yrs
3S-GE: 1984-2000 -- 16 yrs
2F: 1975-1988 -- 23 yrs

....and so on. Conversely, you look at Nissan, and during a similar 10-year lifespan of the Hardbody (1987-97) according to Wikipedia there were 12 different engines used. I remember when Marlin was a general automotive mechanic he would complain how there were so many different date ranges for Nissan engines that it was a PITA to get the right parts ordered.

This is something I have never thought about before -- which makes it exceedingly useful food for thought. I knew that Toyota kept the same engine for years at a time, but that never struck me as anything special.

My friend who works for Mercedes says it this way: Mercedes is more cool than Toyota because they use the newest unproven technology however Mercedes breaks down all the time and is so unreliable because they use the newest unproven engine technology. Many people myself included say Toyota is boring.

True enough. Being stranded in the middle of an arid semi-desert dozens of miles from the nearest cell service or paved road is not my idea of "boring". Ergo, VW and Mercedes may be reasonably called non-boring, right?

[gdmcondev]

Narles-On my F150.  Which I bought new from Drew Ford in La Mesa, CA 23 years ago next month.  Replaced? Lets see: Rotors-twice.  Belts, Alternator, Fluids front to rear just like the owners manual sez, plus oil changes every 5,000 with Penz 10-30 oil, Fluids in Tranny and rear differential Valvoline, Prestone Antifreeze, Seat Cover, couple batteries, hub caps (stolen), radio because it just plain quit, bushings on the front end 3 times, who knows how many Goodyear Wrangler tires. Berryman Chemtool about 2 times a year in the gas.  Fuel pump in both tanks.  Currently the gauge is out in both tanks so just write mileage down and figure 15mpg.  Water Pump, Alternator.  Younger son broke both Window cranks.  I replaced with some kind of Retro things I found online.  MONROE Magnum Shocks probably have 250000 miles on them.

The inline 300-6 leaks about a quart every 2500 miles. 

My kids (2 boys) learned to drive on it.  They took it to school both high school and the University.  It is reliable as heck.  Cruise all day at 75.  Gas mileage 16-19 no matter what.  Freeway or City or Mountains. Usually 16.  Younger Son has it parked in front of his Dorm Room right now.  He does the Walmart oil change like I taught him every 5K no ifs/ands/or buts.

It has been more reliable than the TOY.  That is partly why I have 325,000 miles on it and only 147,000 on TOY.  The TOY gets more admiring glances and folks wanting to buy it.    Toyota with the same religious maintenance. The TOY burns  a quart oil about every 1500-maybe 2000.  CASTROL GTX Since new every 5,000 miles.  Bought it new at Toyota El Cajon in maybe September, 1987. So far on it: Rebuilt Carb, radiator, shocks (currently Bilstien 4600), rotors, clutch, Prestone, Stock, then Goodyear, then Bridgestone and currently Michelin Tires. Seat covers to protect original, tune ups, water pump.  It needs a head gasket and I am in process of doing the Enginbldr treatment like I mentioned in another post where I asked for help from the guys here on this Blog. (many many thanx to the tips that I have received)   I do not let the kids drive it.  Too precious and not as rugged as the F150.  Plus both boys are over 6 foot and weigh over 500 between both of them so TOY is too small.

Id say the 1994 f150 is the best Car or Truck I have ever owned.  The 1987 4x4 22r is cute and well a TOY. 

Neither one is for sale.  Though like they say.....every thing has a price

[Lewis Hein [OP]]

I can relate.  My 1987 TOY 22r at 147000 miles has has a Radiator, Clutch, Brakes, Alternator, Oil Change w/ CASTROL GTX every 5,000. Prestone every season.  Now have a blown head gasket.

My 1994 F150, 300 I6, has 325000 miles. AC blows cold, taught two teenage boys how to drive is still parked at the Dorms (Junior Year),  Oil change every 5000 Penz 10-30. Brakes, Prestone every season.

I love my TOY,. love my F150. F150 more reliable.

This is what I mean. I remember three cars from when I was growing up. A 1983 Honda that rusted out until it was unsafe, a 2x4 pickup that was given light use in construction/remodeling, and a Sienna that was used on family trips after the Honda quit. The pickup had a pretty easy life up to 80,000 miles yet the clutch succumbed to a few months of driving up a mile-long gentle uphill grade through packed snowdrifts with chains on. Before then, it needed a new starter motor and thermostat. The Sienna had a power sliding door that would reliably jam open in the cold weather. Plus, it's paint began to peel after just a few years.

As before, one 10 year old Toyota Hilux I was around had major engine, transmission, and clutch problems. It was, however, a lab vehicle and got abused by people who had no idea how to drive a stick shift or a 4x4, for instance, it got driven on pavement in four wheel drive halfway across Panama and back.

Increasing in abuse and unreliability, my truck has had more problems than I care to remember: Bad brake booster, bad rear brakes (towed with the e-brake on), leaky clutch master cylinder, bad front axle seals, rust starting on the bed, two or three cracked hoses, clogged wiper fluid sprayers, choke out of adjustment, bad exhaust manifold gasket, exhaust union and manifold won't stay tight,  loses a quart of oil every 1,000 miles, driver's side window doesn't work in the cold, steering lock doesn't work, leaky slave cylinders in the brakes, glazed brake drums... In short, there's not much that ain't wrong with it.

Meanwhile, various neighbors have various vehicles, including an old suburban, a couple of F-series trucks, a Dodge Ram, and even a Tacoma. Nothing seems to kill that old suburban, although I have been very much out of the loop on what maintenance/repairs it needs. The fords and Tacoma, to my limited knowledge, have been trouble-free. The dodge has been trouble free except for (I think) some recall and bad rear axle seals due to a previous owner driving with the E-brake engaged. FAR more impressive in my view than any of the Toyotas.

I hesitate to reject conventional wisdom based on a sample as small and full of abused vehicles as mine. But i also hesitate to accept conventional wisdom when my own experience is exactly the opposite.

[Gnarly4X]

Every 4-wheel drive vehicle has its design flaws.  My friend’s big 4x4 crew cab Ford, about 1987, blew a hub in a deep sandy stretch of road in Mexico hauling a trailer full of ATVs.  He knows as much about auto mechanics as anyone I know.  He said Ford just didn’t design enough strength for “real” off-road use.  The failure had nothing to do with maintenance.

When I first got into 4-wheeling (1986) and more serious trails, my Toyota truck was one of very few that went wheeling.  There were one or two Land Crushers.  Most were Jeeps.  I was surprised to see so many times the Jeeps would break down on the trail.  Most of the failures had nothing to do with maintenance.

In 1992 a friends 4x4 Jeep Cherokee blew the automatic tranny while pulling a trailer with 2 jet skiis through a 100 foot patch of deep sand.  My 86 Toyota automatic longbed had just pulled through the same patch with a jet ski trailer and loaded down with camping gear. The Jeep got bogged down and the automatic transmission over heated and melted a plastic!! plug and it puked out tranny fluid.  He was in 4-wheel drive and into the throttle for no more than a few minutes.  My good buddy with the Ford crew cab would say “Jeep did not design it for “real” off-road use.”  That failure had nothing to do with maintenance.

We spent the next 5 hours trying to find a parts store open on Sunday… finally found the part at a Jeep dealership.

Trail-testing a 4x4 will usually uncover its design flaws rather quickly, and I’ve seen just about every popular brand of 4x4 on a trail.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

The reliable Toyota was the early 80s hilux that hadn't been messed with and only normal use as a truck.  The guys on the coast where I grew up who bought their early '80s Toyota new would put 250-300K miles on them with original motor and trans and regular dealer maintenance and ran little dinky tires. That is where the reliability reputation we still cling to came from.

When you start wheeling the heck out of them and replacing everything with aftermarket parts, that's when the reliability goes to heck.

A lot of reliability or lack thereof comes from how hard we abuse the vehicle.  "Normal use" means many things to many people.  Most of what we subject these things to is so much more than "normal" it's ridiculous.

I have had plenty of issues with domestics and plenty of issues with Toyotas.  Most of the issues with Toyotas had to do with me and my driving, a dumb mechanic taking shortcuts, or parts choices, not the Toyotas.  Most of my issues with domestics were design or planned obsolescence type issues.  We had a '97 Chevy 1/2 ton that would puke a dealer sourced new auto trans religiously every 30K miles until we put a non-factory rebuild trans in it, that one ran until we traded the truck off.  What was that?  I know what you mean I have seen guys with 300K on a chevy or ford and it seems to be going strong, I just have never experienced it myself.

I'm not going to sit here and claim I have no issues with my Toyotas, but after working on several makes and driving domestics and Toyotas for years I would rather fix my Toyota than make payments on a domestic 4x4.  I can also fix my Toyota nearly anywhere and almost always seem to be able to limp home no matter what.  I can't do that with newer domestic stuff.  That's just my own comfort zone, but my comfort level and skill/experience level with this set of parts makes driving Toyotas more reliable for me personally.

If you don't like working on old stuff and figuring out issues on old crusty pickups then these things probably aren't for you.  I would estimate a minimum of 6 months of driving, diagnosing and fixing to beat the cobwebs out of any old Toyota. Even after that you will NEVER, EVER obtain the "legendary reliability" they used to talk about because you will never have a new set of Toyota parts built by Toyota.  If that's not your thing than you would be better off leasing a new cute ute and getting a new one every three years or 36K miles.

Wow I sounded kind of ornery, I didn't really mean to be.

[Gnarly4X]

I really enjoy the reality checks!

Gnarls.