Author Topic: "Pinky" the pizzed off 4 banger... (Read 11957 times)

H8PVMNT · « **on:** Nov 17, 2016, 12:52:44 PM »

I will be building an engine over the winter months. The original 20r in my 1980 pickup still runs OK but oil is blowing out the tail pipe and there is a considerable rainbow puddle everywhere I park. Stuff has been literally falling off the thing for about the last year. I can't even get a tailgate to fit on it. Poor old truck has been rode hard and put away wet for so long it's about time for a compete re-do, but that will be another story.

I did the bone stock 22r in the 4runner and it is serving my needs well, now I want to do something with more pop to it. The pickup this engine is going in has been our tractor, tow rig and optional daily driver since 2010. I want it to end up as more of a rat rod with a little less work and a bit more play in mind.

So the plan is to build a "pissed off 4 banger" as one of my chevy enthusiast wheeling buddies once said after witnessing me do a 6500 rpm snow blower style run through some snow drifts in the old 20r pickup. Not sure if I will end up with a 20r/22r hybrid or just a hopped up 20r. The goal is a big cam, oversized valves, a big carb and as much noise as possible

. We will see how the budget goes and what parts work out.

I will start at the beginning, or bottom, as it were. This should all ready be controversial right out of the gate...

Here is a good crank a salvaged out of a rusty 20r I got in a free parts truck this year. This thing had something over 150K and measures out pristine with no taper or measurable wear to the journals. Typical old 20r. Had a little oil varnish and a tiny bit of score marks so I went old school and tried the hand polishing method with the 600 emery cloth, liberal WD40 and the flat shoe lace...

Cheesemaker · « **Reply #1 on:** Nov 17, 2016, 08:20:36 PM »

Following! I need to find a 22R and learn how to rebuild.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #2 on:** Nov 18, 2016, 03:04:22 AM »

Hey H8PVMNT,

I will be following your rebuild.

Have you blueprinted (meaning you have thought out the desired performance goal, design, and component specs) the build?

Sounds like you want to make power at higher RPMS. What camshaft are you considering? Are you going to balance it? Who's and what parts (pistons, rods, head??) are you considering? Are you going to bore the block? What compression ratio are you considering - you mentioned fuel octane. What exhaust or header are you considering?

I'm just curious what your thoughts are.

Gnarls.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #3 on:** Nov 18, 2016, 03:18:16 AM »

Hey H8PVMNT,

I'm just curious.... So, "Pinky".... does that name come from the "little finger" thing because it's a little "20R"... or because this engine will be a female (and may go PMS once a month

) engine and you are going to paint the rocker cover hot pink!!

Gnarls.

emsvitil · « **Reply #4 on:** Nov 18, 2016, 03:26:40 AM »

I was thinking the truck was a really faded red that looked pink................

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #5 on:** Nov 18, 2016, 04:27:42 AM »

Hey H8PVMNT,

Look at the "thinking about bigger cam" thread... I added the engbldr 270 cam since it looks like you are considering higher RPM performance for your new engine build.

Gnarls.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #6 on:** Nov 18, 2016, 05:52:41 AM »

Quote from: emsvitil on Nov 18, 2016, 03:26:40 AM

I was thinking the truck was a really faded red that looked pink................

Ohhh... OK.... it's going to be the "Slinky Pinky"!!

Gnarls.

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #7 on:** Nov 18, 2016, 07:35:34 AM »

I'm not telling on the "pinky" but this will be revealed in time.

My goals... Well, my current 20r likes to rev and I like that, so I was planning to go even more in that direction, so yes, higher rpm but not impractically so. Some of my inspiration has come from watching Glen's (79Coyotefrg) 0-70 video too many times with his big Stage 2 higher rpm cam profile. You can say what you want about whatever but that thing accelerates like a Celica, not a 4x4 pickup. I'd like to get me some of that!

I plan to balance the rods and pistons on a postal scale. With my budget I will just use the stock rods and stock style pistons. I will be boring whatever block I use but I'm not sure if it will be the 22r or the 20r. I am leaning toward the 20r because I like not having crazy compression in my current 20r.
The 20r runs awesome on varnish from old tanks mixed with a bit of low grade winter gas

. Obviously with boring and decking it will be higher than stock compression but I don't think with a typical overbore I will be getting anything crazy. Maybe .040"?

I think the lighter rotating mass, flat top pistons and square stroke/bore relationship of the 20r might just be a wash for drivability compared to the emissions style pistons and short of square design of the 22r. Just a theory mind you but my 20r drives better than my 22r.

For the top, I have a nice, un-milled 20r head, I plan to use either 22r valves or oversized 20r valves which may depend on my cam choice due to lift limitations with the shorter 22r valves. I have aluminum rockers from a 22r. I have a big old NWOR tri-y header that ends in a 2 1/4 collector. I have a left over 2 1/4" exhaust with a resonator and a flowmaster 44. I have a Holley dominator intake for a 20r head that I picked up years ago.

I would probably be better off loosing mass running a single row timing chain but I just love the beef of the dual row chain, so I'm going to stay with that.

I might have a line on a cheap or free weber all covered in dust but new in the box.

This is pretty much in the bag other than the cam, head work and maybe an adjustable timing gear. I need to re-build it anyway so might as well try some fun stuff.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #8 on:** Nov 19, 2016, 06:49:41 AM »

Higher lift cam profiles.... just my worthless opinion.

High lift cams can produce "valve bang" (my words) on these engines. engbldr has designed some (or all?) profiles to help reduce this by designing the closing ramp profile to slow the velocity of the valve so it does not slam down onto the valve seat.

If I were looking at a high lift cam, I'd have conversations with Todd at engbldr, Jerry at 22RE Performance, and John at LCE, just to get some opinions.

Gnarls.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #9 on:** Nov 19, 2016, 08:57:55 AM »

Quote from: H8PVMNT on Nov 18, 2016, 07:35:34 AM

... I would probably be better off loosing mass running a single row timing chain but I just love the beef of the dual row chain, so I'm going to stay with that.

On dual timing chain.... why do you "love the beef" of the dual chains instead of a single timing chain?

Gnarls.

emsvitil · « **Reply #10 on:** Nov 19, 2016, 12:49:30 PM »

Dual row timing chains don't stretch as much....

And what I think is more important:

I rebuild my sisters 20R that had a dual row chain. Had over 100k. You could tell where the chain rubbed on the tensioner, but it was still good.

With my single row 22R, I had to change the chain at 80k due to the POS plastic chain guides.

The chain cut a groove thru the chain tensioner more that halfway.

This wearing thru the tensioner makes you lose chain tension, and is probably the cause of why the 2nd chain eventually skipped 2 tooth on startup one day......... Replaced that chain with the LC dual row conversion.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #11 on:** Nov 19, 2016, 08:04:07 PM »

My experience with the timing chain and guides is a little different.

I have mic’d all the timing chains, tensioners, sprockets, and guides (new and used) in all 3 of my 22s, all single row. I did not see any significant “chain stretch”, or sprocket and chain wear at all….even after 200K+ miles. The timing chain guides are what failed. The stock design is flawed. What is worse is that it was quickly known why the guides failed, causing the chain to slap against the timing cover, the chain chewing into the side and eventually into the water jacket, and replacement kits continued to contain the badly designed plastic guides. The metal guides prevent the guide from breaking at the bolt holes.

Even if the chain did stretch due to wear, the tensioner can compensate for the slack. When the length of the chain gets longer, it retards cam timing slightly, maybe a few degrees, but not enough to radically affect engine performance.
I don’t see how the dual row does anything better than the single row. The dual row has twice the mass that the engine as to turn, twice the force that the tensioner and guides have to absorb.

It is amazing to me how anyone with average hearing could not hear the noise that the timing chain makes when the guide breaks and allows the chain to slap against the timing cover. With the rocker cover, it’s easy to look down onto the chain and see the guide that usually breaks – the driver’s side.

TJMWO.

Gnarls.

kneedownnate · « **Reply #12 on:** Nov 20, 2016, 02:50:54 PM »

Having had a few combos of them in the same truck, I can honestly say I couldn't see doing any of this on anything but a hybrid. Absolutely best combo I'vd had, and it was equally quick in the 1980 4x with the 20r head and open exhaust as it was in the 81 2wd with stock exhaust, even with around 370k miles on it.

I still have that block and plan to have the bottom end bearings fixed (not paying the dude down the street the "buddy deal" of $1,000 he quoted me to re-size bottom end bearings!), hone it and swap on a good 20r head to see how much more abuse it can take before something else gives.

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #13 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 08:05:10 AM »

Quote from: Gnarly4X on Nov 19, 2016, 08:57:55 AM

On dual timing chain.... why do you "love the beef" of the dual chains instead of a single timing chain?

Gnarls.

I guess I'm just stuck in the overbuilt component frame of mind here. I suppose the ideal setup for performance would certainly have to be a single row chain with good metal backed guides.

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #14 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 08:06:15 AM »

Quote from: kneedownnate on Nov 20, 2016, 02:50:54 PM

Having had a few combos of them in the same truck, I can honestly say I couldn't see doing any of this on anything but a hybrid. Absolutely best combo I'vd had, and it was equally quick in the 1980 4x with the 20r head and open exhaust as it was in the 81 2wd with stock exhaust, even with around 370k miles on it.

I still have that block and plan to have the bottom end bearings fixed (not paying the dude down the street the "buddy deal" of $1,000 he quoted me to re-size bottom end bearings!), hone it and swap on a good 20r head to see how much more abuse it can take before something else gives.

OK you have given me something to think about.

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #15 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 09:19:04 AM »

I wonder what's cheaper, punching the 20r block out to fit 22r pistons or line honing the mains on the 22r block? We will see.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #16 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 09:41:12 AM »

Quote from: H8PVMNT on Nov 21, 2016, 09:19:04 AM

I wonder what's cheaper, punching the 20r block out to fit 22r pistons or line honing the mains on the 22r block? We will see.

Line honing will most likely be less cost. If you bore the 20R block you may get into some issues with cylinder thickness, depending on how far you need to go. My shop may recommend a sonic test - by this time you may be over the cost of line honing the mains.

Just food for thought.

Gnarls.

kneedownnate · « **Reply #17 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 09:46:35 AM »

Quote from: H8PVMNT on Nov 21, 2016, 09:19:04 AM

I wonder what's cheaper, punching the 20r block out to fit 22r pistons or line honing the mains on the 22r block? We will see.

Well see now, that's basically what I have and it's the 2nd most gutless combo I've had, worst being the stock 20r. I have a 20r block that's bored .60 over that ATK passed off as a 22r according to po, which I sorta believe since it's ground smooth where it usually is stamped 20r or 22r.

There's a wrecked 2wd 81 locally for $600 that I'm tempted to go see. If that engine is as stout as my old 81 22r, it'd be worth it for me to try talking him down a little

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #18 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 10:15:51 AM »

Quote from: kneedownnate on Nov 21, 2016, 09:46:35 AM

Well see now, that's basically what I have and it's the 2nd most gutless combo I've had, worst being the stock 20r. I have a 20r block that's bored .60 over that ATK passed off as a 22r according to po, which I sorta believe since it's ground smooth where it usually is stamped 20r or 22r.

There's a wrecked 2wd 81 locally for $600 that I'm tempted to go see. If that engine is as stout as my old 81 22r, it'd be worth it for me to try talking him down a little

What pistons does it have, flat top 20r? That would make a de-tuned low compression 22r if it had a 22r head. Sucky.

kneedownnate · « **Reply #19 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 10:22:05 AM »

Oh snap, it's probably been at least 8 years since I've seen em! I can remember clear as day what pistons are in the 22r, and it seems the same domed pistons are in the bored block

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #20 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 02:05:41 PM »

More than likely a conversation with the machine shop guy and the budget will make the decision for me. At the very least I will end up with a hotter 20r. I have the nice intake, the header, carb is available cheaply, so it will be a nice setup. I am really leaning toward the hybrid though... Have to do more bench racing

.

The notion that with the hybrid you may be stuck running premium may kill it for me though. I really dig how my 20r runs on garbage and I'd like to keep that. My 20r all ready pulls hills 5 mph faster than my 22r and accelerates a bit better. A slightly hotter version of that would probably satisfy me just fine.

My machinist is down and out for hernia surgery otherwise I would probably all ready have the decisions made. Aaaargh the suspense is killing me! This is like when I was 17 and stayed up nights stressing about which rims and tires to buy.

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #21 on:** Nov 21, 2016, 02:51:37 PM »

Oh it gets worse... Visited with Tim at DOA.

I ran his C270 years ago in a 22re and loved it. He gave me a simple "don't over think it" recipe using the 20r head with STOCK sized 20r valves and his new .443 lift split duration version of the C270 which he says ends up ideal for the hybrid as long as you are using the longer stock 20r valves. For some reason that I don't totally understand he says using the bigger 22r valves is a total wash due to something called "shrouding" unless you do something else (de-shrouding, I had to do a little more reading

) that takes more time and/or money and still doesn't yield much gain and lowers compression. Something to do with the velocity of things with the smaller valves and the bigger valves actually getting in the way of flow because they are too close to the wall of the combustion chamber from what I gather. In summary the smaller valves get in the way of the flow less, and create more velocity, so to a point, they create a more efficient flowing scenario, despite the slightly smaller hole.

He also says boring out the 20r block to .040 oversized 22r size should be cheaper than line honing the 22r block. I asked him about the casting flaws and he says he's done it many times with almost no issues and you end up with a nice clean 22r spec block when you are done.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #22 on:** Nov 22, 2016, 04:26:41 AM »

Quote from: H8PVMNT on Nov 21, 2016, 02:51:37 PM

Oh it gets worse... Visited with Tim at DOA.

.. He also says boring out the 20r block to .040 oversized 22r size should be cheaper than line honing the 22r block.

Are we talking about line "honing" or line boring?

Gnarls.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #23 on:** Nov 22, 2016, 09:54:26 AM »

Quote from: H8PVMNT on Nov 21, 2016, 02:51:37 PM

.. Visited with Tim at DOA.

I ran his C270 years ago in a 22re and loved it...... his new .443 lift split duration version of the C270...

Did you happen to get the specs on this cam?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #24 on:** Nov 22, 2016, 11:39:21 AM »

Quote from: Gnarly4X on Nov 22, 2016, 09:54:26 AM

Did you happen to get the specs on this cam?

Thanks,

Gnarls.

Not all the way. I have an e-mail request in to him for the exact specs.

H8PVMNT · « **Reply #25 on:** Nov 22, 2016, 11:41:19 AM »

Quote from: Gnarly4X on Nov 22, 2016, 04:26:41 AM

Are we talking about line "honing" or line boring?

Gnarls

Well I don't know but they make the cylinder the 22r size for the 22r pistons. 3 mm seems like a lot to "hone". I don't know what they call it.

Maybe you are asking about the main bearing journals on the block? That is what I needed to fix on the 22r block that was about $160. I guess that is line "bored" since they cut down the bearing caps and cut a new hole. Anyway I don't know the lingo but I know what it is and what it costs me

.

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #26 on:** Nov 23, 2016, 02:07:14 AM »

Quote from: H8PVMNT on Nov 22, 2016, 11:41:19 AM

Well I don't know but they make the cylinder the 22r size for the 22r pistons. 3 mm seems like a lot to "hone". I don't know what they call it.

Maybe you are asking about the main bearing journals on the block? That is what I needed to fix on the 22r block that was about $160. I guess that is line "bored" since they cut down the bearing caps and cut a new hole. Anyway I don't know the lingo but I know what it is and what it costs me .

Hey H8PVMNT,

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the main bearing saddles. My understanding is that honing and align boring are two different processes. Usually honing is less expensive – less material removed. Honing after boring is often recommended.

Here’s my lesser experienced engine building perspective…

I imagine every engine builder, and DIYer, has their own level of quality rebuild process, and tests, as well as a budget.

For me, rebuilding my 22RE will be over a $4,000 project. Spending a couple more hundred dollars on tests my machine shop recommends seemed logical to me. My engine block is most likely the original stock engine, 30 years old. I would be kicking myself forever if I rebuilt this engine, did not have it magnafluxed, and it blew up to find out there was a “detectable” crack in the cylinder wall. I only had my block bored .020”, but if I had gone to .060”, my machine shop probably would have recommended a sonic test. My cost for the machine shop work on this block was $608.28.

Tim at DOA certainly has a reputation for his engine building knowledge amongst the Toyota community.

I get Tim’s point about don’t over think it… however, MY engine building experience compared to Tim would not make a pimple on his butt. So, “over thinking” for me is a necessity.

I completely understand cost and risk mitigation…and so to your comment about Tim saying “he says he's done it many times with almost no issues”… I would not want to be on the OTHER side of “no issues”, and have an “almost” running rebuild.

Gnarls.

kneedownnate · « **Reply #27 on:** Nov 23, 2016, 09:04:44 PM »

Quote from: H8PVMNT on Nov 21, 2016, 02:05:41 PM

The notion that with the hybrid you may be stuck running premium may kill it for me though. I really dig how my 20r runs on garbage and I'd like to keep that.

Never had to run more than 87 octane in my hybrids, and until CA changed their gas, it'd run old gas without a hickup. I have to run 89 or 91 octane in my stock 91 22re unless I wanna hear it ping under even the slightest load. I can get away with 87 if only running around town, but if the possibility of a road trip with freeway driving or hills (hell, even if it's windy) is on the horizon, I'd better use higher grade.

emsvitil · « **Reply #28 on:** Nov 23, 2016, 09:10:10 PM »

Quote from: kneedownnate on Nov 23, 2016, 09:04:44 PM

Never had to run more than 87 octane in my hybrids, and until CA changed their gas, it'd run old gas without a hickup. I have to run 89 or 91 octane in my stock 91 22re unless I wanna hear it ping under even the slightest load. I can get away with 87 if only running around town, but if the possibility of a road trip with freeway driving or hills (hell, even if it's windy) is on the horizon, I'd better use higher grade.

Bad knock sensor?

I can run 87 octane in my 86 22RE without pinging..............

(even have the timing advanced)

Gnarly4X · « **Reply #29 on:** Nov 24, 2016, 02:45:08 AM »

Hey H8PVMNT,

"Well I don't know but they make the cylinder the 22r size for the 22r pistons. 3 mm seems like a lot to "hone". I don't know what they call it."

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-truck-4runner/211972-boring-out-20r.html

Gnarls.

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