Author Topic: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing  (Read 11355 times)

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Erick561

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22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« on: Jul 08, 2016, 03:12:07 AM »
Hey mc posting for a customer, he's on his 3rd dist. the 'helical' gear keeps sheering cam looks good timing has been set at 5°btdc engine has 5000 completely rebuilt any ideas what can cause this? I told him he has to drop his pan and get the chunks out.  Says the top end is in synch with the bottom end the chain has 5k as well.  He bought a transmission off me and bought two distributors in the last week.
« Last Edit: Jul 18, 2016, 09:47:19 PM by Erick561 »

toe

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #1 on: Jul 08, 2016, 03:22:25 AM »
How hard is it to spin the distributor?

Doesn't the end of the shaft fit in a hole in the head (working from memory here...  :yikes: )

That might be where there's to much drag.
Me

Erick561 [OP]

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #2 on: Jul 08, 2016, 03:27:24 AM »
The distributor isnt the problem its happened to 3 different ones, something is causing the cam to not be in synch obviously though.  He gets paid today i just wanna make sure he spends his money wisely.

Erick561 [OP]

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #3 on: Jul 08, 2016, 03:48:09 AM »
One thing i do know is that If his cam keepers are smoked the cam can move and that could cause the distributor gear not to mesh up.  He doesn't know how many miles are on it.  Has anyone used the ratchet strap method to pull a cam without disturbing the head gasket?

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #4 on: Jul 13, 2016, 12:38:17 PM »
I've swapped cams a few times without removing the head just loosen the bolts in sequence evenly then put back together in sequence evenly. Left exhaust, intake and junk just as it sat. Had no ill effect due to it.
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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #5 on: Jul 13, 2016, 01:30:16 PM »
All I can figure is that the cam is either wobbly or moving around too much.  I have never seen that before on a Toyota.  Have a buddy with an AMC that he got an aftermarket distributor drive gear for that was way different hardness than the other gear.  That stuff would eat itself.
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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #6 on: Jul 13, 2016, 04:31:49 PM »
If he has an after-market cam, especially an overseas one, the cam gear may be ground off-pitch or hardened incorrectly.  The cam bearings/saddles could be loose or bent cam, causing wobble. Head could be warped and saddles not aligned any more, so cam runs slightly down-hill or up-hill at the cam snoot.  Never seen this on a Toyota before, but have on USA engines.  Turn engine over (not running)and check run-out of the cam in several places and plastigage the cam bearings/saddles, top, sides, and bottom. Good luck.   :twocents:
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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #7 on: Jul 15, 2016, 07:32:27 PM »
cam is bent or he has an oil galley in the head that feeds the cam "bearing" thats plugged and the cam is seizing in the head.  pull the cam.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #8 on: Jul 15, 2016, 07:37:07 PM »
Quote
engine has 5000 completely rebuilt
I have seen newly built engines that never had the oil galleys cleaned out.  I guarantee you thats the issue.  onle takes a 1/4 inch drill bit screwed in by hand to clean it out.  needs to be able to go all the way into the intake side headbolt passage.
« Last Edit: Jul 18, 2016, 03:25:30 PM by 79coyotefrg »
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #9 on: Jul 17, 2016, 05:45:36 AM »
I have seen newly built engines that never had the oil galleys cleaned out.  I guarantee you thats the issue.  onle takes a 1/2 inch drill bit screwed in by hand to clean it out.  needs to be able to go all the way into the intake side headbolt passage.

Hey mc posting for a customer, he's on his 3rd dist. the worm gear keeps sheering cam looks good timing has been set at 5°btdc engine has 5000 completely rebuilt any ideas what can cause this? I told him he has to drop his pan and get the chunks out.  Says the top end is in synch with the bottom end the chain has 5k as well.  He bought a transmission off me and bought two distributors in the last week.


Wow... 3 times this happened and no cause has been determined?  :shake:

What does "completely rebuilt" include?

If the camshaft was bent or the oil galleys were plugged, I doubt it could have gone 5,000 miles.

I assume he pulled the rocker cover and examined the distributor cam gear?  During the rebuild did he install a new camshaft?  Was the head rebuilt or new?  Were the cam saddle bosses line bored or spec'd?

The distributor gear is destroyed, so the cam gear would most likely be also.  The cam gear bolt could be coming loose, bent, or misaligned.  If the distributor hold down bolt is coming loose and the distributor is backing out of the head, the gears will misalign and crash.

By the way, I believe that is a helical gear, not a worm gear.

Gnarls.  :spin:
« Last Edit: Jul 17, 2016, 08:37:46 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~16,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #10 on: Jul 17, 2016, 09:06:46 AM »
I have seen newly built engines that never had the oil galleys cleaned out.  I guarantee you thats the issue.  onle takes a 1/2 inch drill bit screwed in by hand to clean it out.  needs to be able to go all the way into the intake side headbolt passage.

I'm a long way from an engine builder so I'll defer my comments to the experts out there...

There are 3 oil ports that feed the 3 cam journals.  It would seem odd that one or all of those ports would get plugged up.

Since all 3 are feed from a common oil galley, wouldn't there be other issues with lubrication?  If the cam bearings were worn so badly that the camshaft could actually move enough to cause the 2 gears to not mesh and crash, the engine would not be running right, lots of noise, and should be very noticeable.  With the crank turning the cam gear, how could the camshaft seize up and stick?

By the way, the oil ports in the cam journals on my 22RE factory head are about .220" in diameter not 1/2".

Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Jul 17, 2016, 10:19:02 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~16,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

God Bless Our Troops... Especially Our Snipers. The 2nd defends the 1st
MEMBER: WWP, T2T, VFW, NRA, GOA, SAF, Mammoth Nation, C2 Tactical, Hillsdale College, Humane Society of the U.S. - "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used to create them." ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #11 on: Jul 17, 2016, 11:08:35 AM »
If he has an after-market cam, especially an overseas one, the cam gear may be ground off-pitch or hardened incorrectly.  .   :twocents:

Do aftermarket camshafts come with distributor cam gears?  :dunno:

If I were replacing my distributor cam gear and bolt for some reason, I'd get one from a reputable source like 22RE Performance, LCE, or engbldr.  Since I started my rebuild, I've heard and read that there are foreign made very poor quality aftermarket replacement parts out there.  :yikes:


Gnarls. :spin:

« Last Edit: Jul 17, 2016, 11:16:38 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~16,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

God Bless Our Troops... Especially Our Snipers. The 2nd defends the 1st
MEMBER: WWP, T2T, VFW, NRA, GOA, SAF, Mammoth Nation, C2 Tactical, Hillsdale College, Humane Society of the U.S. - "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used to create them." ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #12 on: Jul 18, 2016, 03:46:36 PM »
I'm a long way from an engine builder so I'll defer my comments to the experts out there...

There are 3 oil ports that feed the 3 cam journals.  It would seem odd that one or all of those ports would get plugged up.

Since all 3 are feed from a common oil galley, wouldn't there be other issues with lubrication?  If the cam bearings were worn so badly that the camshaft could actually move enough to cause the 2 gears to not mesh and crash, the engine would not be running right, lots of noise, and should be very noticeable.  With the crank turning the cam gear, how could the camshaft seize up and stick?

By the way, the oil ports in the cam journals on my 22RE factory head are about .220" in diameter not 1/2".

Gnarls.
those passages are fed by a common galley pressured through the intake side headbolt holes.  I have seen blown engines that had one or all three plugged and also the crank galley's would be plugged up BUT it comes down to which one starves first. 

the cam journals are aluminum so if they starve the cam eats into them quickly.   My dad had a 1967 F800 gas burner that starved of oil in the rear cam journal of an iron block. that rear bearing seized and the cam snapped into three pieces. 

I know the size of the hole is 6mm or .240"  that 2 was supposed to be a 4. 
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #13 on: Jul 18, 2016, 03:48:07 PM »
Do aftermarket camshafts come with distributor cam gears?  :dunno:

If I were replacing my distributor cam gear and bolt for some reason, I'd get one from a reputable source like 22RE Performance, LCE, or engbldr.  Since I started my rebuild, I've heard and read that there are foreign made very poor quality aftermarket replacement parts out there.  :yikes:


Gnarls. :spin:



LCE cams do not come with the bolt or gear but I think they sell them.

LCE is a little pricey but you get top quality.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

Erick561 [OP]

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #14 on: Jul 18, 2016, 09:46:27 PM »
He hasn't had any money to do anything.  I want to go and check his engine out but i have been selling more than 5 parts a day on ebay and i put a lot of tlc into packaging for customer satisfaction
He says theres no play on the cam but i want to check everything out.  The previous owner had referred this info to him, I'll have to find out if he is still in contact with them for more partiulars of the engine specs.

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #15 on: Jul 19, 2016, 04:39:05 AM »
Sorry, but my pea-brain is having trouble understanding this failure.

We can post comments and experiences here all day, but without more facts on why there are 3 distributor failures and understanding what was diagnosed and parts replaced after each failure, the cause or causes is just speculation.

Gnarls. :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~16,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #16 on: Jul 20, 2016, 06:31:47 AM »
He hasn't had any money to do anything......

I'm very familiar with that issue since starting my rebuild!  :ack:

Gnarls  :spin:
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~16,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

God Bless Our Troops... Especially Our Snipers. The 2nd defends the 1st
MEMBER: WWP, T2T, VFW, NRA, GOA, SAF, Mammoth Nation, C2 Tactical, Hillsdale College, Humane Society of the U.S. - "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used to create them." ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #17 on: Jul 20, 2016, 07:30:19 AM »
The 2 distributors i sold him were pulled from running trucks that I removed myself.  He says he doesn't have an advance timing gun.  I don't know where he has been setting his timing.  Haven't been able to go look at his rig because I have been running my business
I'm very familiar with that issue since starting my rebuild!  :ack:

Gnarls  :spin:

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #18 on: Jul 24, 2016, 10:42:47 PM »
Tell him to pull the valve cover and make sure nothing is screwed up/cocked sideways (Yes I had the cam shaft sprocket sideways once and it made installing the dizzy a PITA). After he checks it's all in alignment is the distributor sliding in easily? If not then something is wrong.

Erick561 [OP]

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #19 on: Aug 15, 2016, 08:40:07 AM »
 :yupyup: he almost has all the money to fix his problem..i told him to check his Worm gear on the cam but he said it was still good  :smack:

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #20 on: Aug 16, 2016, 12:53:48 AM »
it almost looks like the gear isnt lined up. like its a gear for a 22R being used on a RE. they have different depth.
that 12mm head bolt that has 8.8 in the oil must be about to bounce out. it shouldnt be above that oil pool at all.
AR-TTORA founder 22R bored.060,LCE stage II race cam http://pure-gas.org/    32/36weber, :driving: Marlin 1200 NON ceramic clutch, L52SHD+dualcase #2919, cable-locker, Yukon 5.29 gears, 35's, Allpro ebrake, front springs, and high steer, F150rears    RIP Nitro 9-29-07 :(  I sure miss him :down: MarlinCrawlerInc IS NOT affiliated with TrailGear in any way

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #21 on: Aug 16, 2016, 01:25:44 AM »
Are there any differences between the early double row timing chain and later single row timing chain for the gear and snout?
Ed
SoCal
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22RE  W56B
31x10.50R15

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Re: 22RE Distributor worm gear shearing
« Reply #22 on: Aug 16, 2016, 03:50:36 AM »
The cam gear for the 22R and 22RE should be identical.

This cam gear is damaged and has parts of teeth missing and fractures at the addendum.

NO BUENO!!

I would replace the gear and very carefully engage the distributor. Rotate and examine the synching of the both gears and see if there are any issues with alignment or excessive or insufficient gear engagement.

What caused that should be checked out carefully. 

Is the cam sprocket bolt torqued correctly to spec?

Was the cam gear defective and had fractures or a porosity problem at casting?

Were the helical gears cut incorrectly and the base circle diameter too large?

Is the lateral and perpendicular alignment off - Why?

Is the camshaft slightly longer at the gear mount?

Is the camshaft sprocket thicker at the mounting hub than it should be?

Is the hole for the distributor in proper alignment and the distributor boss on the head the correct depth?

I'm sure we have noticed that much of the aftermarket parts are coming from China.  There are about 12 foundries in China that make millions these various parts. Obviously the quality can be suspect with every part. Over the years I've had issues with almost every other part I've purchased at Autozone, O'Reilly's, Pep Boys, etc.  On parts like gears, the new or replacement parts should be mic'd to compare with original or ones being replaced.  Reputable suppliers like engbldr, 22RE Performance, and LC Engineering, have narrowed down their quality sources because they are a small business in a niche market and cannot afford to sell crap.

Of course all efforts to buy quality parts doesn't mean you are guaranteed to always get quality parts.

The damage to the disty gear as shown before would indicated that metal pieces most likely have dropped down into the oil pan, this could cause enough damage to bearings, cylinder walls, or plug up oil galleys and require a complete engine rebuild.

I would not trust and verify.

TJMWO  :gap:

Gnarls. :spin:
« Last Edit: Aug 16, 2016, 04:15:22 AM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~16,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

God Bless Our Troops... Especially Our Snipers. The 2nd defends the 1st
MEMBER: WWP, T2T, VFW, NRA, GOA, SAF, Mammoth Nation, C2 Tactical, Hillsdale College, Humane Society of the U.S. - "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used to create them." ~ Albert Einstein

 
 
 
 
 

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