Author Topic: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild  (Read 153560 times)

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Gnarly4X

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1650 on: Aug 04, 2018, 08:11:30 AM »
Have you tried the compression test with ATF in the cylinders?

No, I have not pumped any ATF inside the cylinders before doing a compression test?

Getting the compression readings will only indicate a measurement, right?  Whatever that PSI is per cylinder, I will still need to pull the engine and find out what is causing the oil consumption.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1651 on: Aug 04, 2018, 08:18:41 AM »
If I ever rebuild another engine, I will be anal+ about measuring and mic'ing every piece before and after machine work, and measuring the cylinder bores and RA, before assembly!!  I will not 100% trust the machine shop.

Gnarls.


You believe the rings are bad.....poor quality....how would measuring catch this?
Not being a jerk just trying to understand/learn   :driving:
CB


Hey cbeers, 

Good question.

Are you asking how would measuring the rings before the assembly to determine if they were bad prevent the oil burning?  I would not know that.  That would be something that a person who has lots of experience with piston rings, like Jim at 22RE, or Tod at engnbldr, or a ring manufacturer QA person.  There may be a "measurement" for ring tension or pressure, but I haven't seen a spec on that. 

If you are asking about how will it be determined if the rings are bad, I will have a very reputable mechanic who builds 22s as a business determine if the rings are bad, and hopefully WHY.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1652 on: Aug 04, 2018, 08:37:06 AM »
Looking back, one of the big mistakes I made was NOT verifying with the machine shop EXACTLY what measurements for tolerances and specs were done.  I asked, and paid them to spec all tolerances.  I will check with them to see if I can get a report or record of what exactly they did during the machining and tolerance checks.

I suspect it's possible they may not have checked for specific measurements like ring gap.... but I don't know that for sure.  They had the block, crank, rods, new bearings, pistons & rings, head bolts, timing cover.

Again, my ignorance on what I should know before rebuilding an engine.  My long past few engine rebuilds, I simply relied on the reputable machine shop and my conversation with the machine shop owner/manager about what I wanted and what he recommended be done to the block and parts.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1653 on: Aug 04, 2018, 08:41:49 AM »
...  At the same time i got 100+k out of it.

Holy capity!!  I cannot image driving my truck for 100,000 miles with it burning 1 quart of oil every 600 miles!!  It was all I could do to drive it 10,000 miles!!!

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Snowtoy

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1654 on: Aug 04, 2018, 10:43:59 AM »
I have yet to pull apart an engine that I rebuilt, so I don't know if they move, but some I have torn down the ring gaps were close together, so they could move.  However if they do, even if they lined up, do to their movement, they shouldn't stay lined up long enough to burn oil at the rate you are seeing.

Has it been burning oil since day one, or did you notice it at "X" thousand miles?
« Last Edit: Aug 04, 2018, 12:38:06 PM by Snowtoy »
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1655 on: Aug 04, 2018, 11:56:38 AM »
The rings should basically stay where you set them, if they didn't there wouldnt be any point on staggering them from the git go, which is to slow the gasses ability to travel between rings...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1656 on: Aug 04, 2018, 01:32:39 PM »
Google

'do piston rings rotate'


Ed
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22RE  W56B
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1657 on: Aug 04, 2018, 01:37:22 PM »
Damn internet, no more speculating. :laugh:
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1658 on: Aug 04, 2018, 05:16:54 PM »
They will move around!!
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1659 on: Aug 04, 2018, 07:35:48 PM »
Here's another thought, maybe u installed one or more of the rings upside down..  typically the rings will have a marking that typically indicates it's to face up.  Also pretty confident rings don't move around once worn in. And u check rings by measuring ring end gaps with just the ring installed in the cylinder. All this is in fsm

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1660 on: Aug 05, 2018, 07:54:25 AM »
Here's another thought, maybe u installed one or more of the rings upside down..  typically the rings will have a marking that typically indicates it's to face up.  Also pretty confident rings don't move around once worn in. And u check rings by measuring ring end gaps with just the ring installed in the cylinder. All this is in fsm

Hey E,

Good thought.  Right now I'm giving everything a thought.  I am sure I was extremely careful with locating the rings on each piston... but that doesn't mean I could not have made a mistake.  The rings did have a dot for indicating face-up to top of piston, and I located the each ring gap according the instructions/diagram in the box.

What is the likelihood that 1 or more pistons would rotate the rings to move gaps to be all aligned that allowed enough oil to be burned that I'd see 1 quart in 600 miles? 

I did check several compression rings for gap, but I don't remember if I check all of them.  I should have checked all of them for each cylinder that the pistons was going to be installed.

Although the ring gap spec in the FSM for a 22 is spec'd in 10 thousandths of an inch, the allowable tolerances between Standard and Maximum is a large gap!  So from that, I assume ring gap is critical but does not have to be precise.  The gap difference tolerance between maximum Standard and Maximum is about 0.0237", or about the thickness of 6 sheets of 20# printer paper.  In other words, the spec says this is the range:  .0098" to .0185" for the number 2 compression ring, which has the tightest tolerance.  But the FSM specs the "Maximum" ring gap for that ring at .0421".  So the difference in that range is .0236"!!

I got my leak down tester yesterday, so I'll do a leak down test and a compression test in the next two days and post the results.

My limited experience gut says the ring gaps is not the cause of the oil consumption.

Gnarls.




« Last Edit: Aug 05, 2018, 05:31:45 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1661 on: Aug 05, 2018, 08:07:38 AM »
They will move around!!

I've read conflicting information on this. But I do know that in 2 cycle engines, the piston have a locating pin so the ring(s) cannot rotate, and avoid getting a gap edge hung up on the port inside the bore.  I raced go-karts for about 5 years, and went through about 4 engines - all 2 cycle.

I don't know if 4 cylinder pistons have locating pins for rings as standard design or they are in specific applications.  Or if they don't have them and it does not matter that the rings rotate... or NOT.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1662 on: Aug 05, 2018, 08:10:33 AM »

Has it been burning oil since day one, or did you notice it at "X" thousand miles?

It has been burning about 1 quart in 500 to 600 miles from the day I fired it - day one.

Gnarls.

1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1663 on: Aug 05, 2018, 08:50:24 AM »
Hi e,

Yep... I could get by with just a rehone, new rings or new rings and new pistons.  BUT... since that will require me pulling the engine and completely disassembling it, I might as well just rebuild it from scratch.  One "backyard mechanic" guy where I work suggested I "drop the pan, unbolt the rods, pull the pistons and re-ring them.  That would be huge risk.  What if that does NOT solve the problem? What if its a piston problem?  What if the cylinders were over-bored by a .001".  What if the RA was wrong?  What if the cylinders are glazed?...   I'm trying to mitigate any further waste of time and money!!

This engine is coming apart and then I'll decide if I will rebuild it, or just donate the block for a core charge.

Gnarls.

Rebuilding from scratch makes no sense if you find a cause of the problem and the primary goal is a running engine. You could get a professional rebuild and have a random failure even then.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1664 on: Aug 05, 2018, 09:32:08 AM »
I've read conflicting information on this. But I do know that in 2 cycle engines, the piston have a locating pin so the ring(s) cannot rotate, and avoid getting a gap edge hung up on the port inside the bore.  I raced go-karts for about 5 years, and went through about 4 engines - all 2 cycle.

I don't know if 4 cylinder pistons have locating pins for rings as standard design or they are in specific applications.  Or if they don't have them and it does not matter that the rings rotate... or NOT.

Gnarls.



I have never worked on an engine that had locating pins for the rings. The engines on my carts were mostly from lawn mowers except for the McColloch's and they did not have pins either!!
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1665 on: Aug 05, 2018, 12:05:27 PM »
We need more info!
Get to testing!
Assuming and guessing time has passed.
Chop chop!
Park it in the garage and pull all the plugs. Take note of the cylinder that each plug came from.
Take pictures and post for us. We will need hi resolution close up shots.
Waiting!

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1666 on: Aug 05, 2018, 01:07:50 PM »
I was told once that the 2nd ring has the wrong spec in FSM... Take that with a grain of salt.  But when I assembled my engine one of the rings was tighter than the specs but was considered normal...


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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1667 on: Aug 05, 2018, 06:45:34 PM »
I was told once that the 2nd ring has the wrong spec in FSM... Take that with a grain of salt.  But when I assembled my engine one of the rings was tighter than the specs but was considered normal...



Hey E,

Well... yes...  I have seen on the web multiple posts with different ring gap specs for early Toy engines.  Sometimes I can't determine what engine is being referenced.  And, yes some specs in my 85 and 86 Toyota FSM have numbers that I don't believe are correct.


Here's an old (quote from engnbldr (Ted) on ring gap.  By the way I think Ted has forgotten more knowledge about building engines that most "experts" will ever know.

http://4x4wire.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/695017.html


">>>*Ring end gap should always be checked, we find the Hastings ring sets come out snugger than all other brands by just a tad. I like the ones Rockproducts supplies, usually we check them and stick them in...Hastings is a good piece, though.

*When we build an engine inhouse (don't ask, I am retired *insert lazy*...*LOL**..) we use .018"-.020" for the top ring end gaps and anything within the plus/minus specs for the 2nds and oil rings.

The reason is that if everything is perfect then minimums are of no concern. Now I know that you and I ARE perfect (well, me anyway) *heehee..but every once in awhile a fresh engine will be operated with upset tuning.

Along comes the enemy, it's name is heat. If the gap is too close, the ring can heat up and expand, jerking the head right off the piston, cracking the 2nd ring land, or messing up a perfectly good cylinder bore very quickly.

Setting them a shade looser hurts nothing, we just file them lightly until we are happy with the fit.

By the way, DON'T line up the gaps, best to offset them for a beginning install...

*Le' and I are down at the coast pi**ing away our kid's inheritence this evening (she is UP $650, I broke even) We be back tomorrow if you need any help.......*EB"
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1668 on: Aug 05, 2018, 06:48:12 PM »
We need more info!
Get to testing!
Assuming and guessing time has passed.
Chop chop!
Park it in the garage and pull all the plugs. Take note of the cylinder that each plug came from.
Take pictures and post for us. We will need hi resolution close up shots.
Waiting!



Hi bg,

Yeah... it's killing me not to know what the hell happened to my rebuild!!!!.

I'm working some crazy long hours right now, but I'm going to see if I can pull the plugs, photo them, do a compression check, and a leak down test, and post the results for you in the next few days.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1669 on: Aug 05, 2018, 06:54:38 PM »
Rebuilding from scratch makes no sense if you find a cause of the problem and the primary goal is a running engine. You could get a professional rebuild and have a random failure even then.

True.  I could get a bad rebuild from anyone, or a failed rebuild because of a rare part defect.  Or.. I could fubar the break-in.

The reason I'd pull and rebuild it from scratch is do it again myself and see if I can rebuild one that starts and runs the way my original 1986 22RE did.  Right now is just a pride thing knowing I didn't do right!! 

And... if I decide to rebuild it, I may look seriously at Jim's carb/intake product combo and just forget about Mama ECU and her finicky sensors!!

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1670 on: Aug 05, 2018, 09:31:30 PM »
I don't believe in all the "break in" hype.  Sure u want to cruise your engine 2k for 20 minutes to beat in the cam, test drive and do compression brakeing to push rings in to cylinder wall and change out the oil. But other than that it's either built right or not at all.  Let's see pictures of all your plugs.  Take your oil cap off and put your hand over it to seal, what kind of pressure is there...  No more talking, more doing

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1671 on: Aug 05, 2018, 10:17:49 PM »
I saw on the chat you said you used royal purple for break-in. Was it the royal purple specifically made for break in or did you use regular royal purple synthetic oil?
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1672 on: Aug 06, 2018, 03:48:27 AM »
I saw on the chat you said you used royal purple for break-in. Was it the royal purple specifically made for break in or did you use regular royal purple synthetic oil?

Good question.... just used RP non-synthetic break-in oil.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1673 on: Aug 06, 2018, 04:01:58 AM »
I don't believe in all the "break in" hype.  Sure u want to cruise your engine 2k for 20 minutes to beat in the cam, test drive and do compression brakeing to push rings in to cylinder wall and change out the oil. But other than that it's either built right or not at all.  Let's see pictures of all your plugs.  Take your oil cap off and put your hand over it to seal, what kind of pressure is there...  No more talking, more doing

Hey E,

I tend to agree that there's some different opinions by the "experts" on how to break-in a rebuilt.  22RE Performance break-in instructions basically says "drive it as you normally do".

Other instructions say just let it cool down completely for the first 2 or 3 start ups at normal op temp.  And I think you want to be very careful about over heating it, that apparently can cause glazing.

The guys at my machine shop, who build all kinds of engines, said the rings should be broken in by about 100 miles.

I'll get some results posted soon.

Gnarls.


1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1674 on: Aug 06, 2018, 12:51:05 PM »
So when a new car is purchased does it have 500 hidden miles of engine break in with crazy oils?  Break in is not the concern, these are not the droids you are looking for...

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1675 on: Aug 06, 2018, 01:11:37 PM »
So when a new car is purchased does it have 500 hidden miles of engine break in with crazy oils?  Break in is not the concern, these are not the droids you are looking for...
actually they do install a break in oil from the factory.
I am 1/5th of Perfect Fit
SqWADoosh [04:19 PM]: *sigh* I guess Chris is right and I just need to wait until I'm in a place where I have a tow rig and trailer before I get this caliber of truck
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Prismo [06:11 PM]:   Done, time to relax or as Bestgen says....FREEDOM!
HogCanyonHopper [06:54 PM]:   I like my little rod. it gets the job done
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1676 on: Aug 06, 2018, 01:16:05 PM »
When I bought my first new car I asked, was told to just drive it normally and change the oil after 500 miles, same 7 months later after the dealership rebuilt the same 3.0 after sinking the truck in a creek(though creeks don't normally float vehicles). :greengrin:

Outside of hot rodding a new engine or taking it deep into the rpm's before shifting, everything should seat fine, under normal driving conditions, the only thing that should be followed would be the manufacture's direction for breaking in the cam.
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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1677 on: Aug 06, 2018, 07:30:09 PM »
So when a new car is purchased does it have 500 hidden miles of engine break in with crazy oils?  Break in is not the concern, these are not the droids you are looking for...

A friend of mine bought a 2001 Acura RSX Type S new (it had under 2 miles on it at delivery). The dealership had him go 10,000 miles before changing my the oil. It’s still going strong.
« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2018, 08:41:05 PM by blackdiamond »
1989 4Runner: Dual Ultimate (Inchworm front & Marlin 4.70 rear), Marlin Twin Stick, 1200-lb clutch, 4.88 R&P, Aussie Front, Detroit rear, 30-spline Longs, Long hub gears, ARP hub and knuckle studs & 35x12.50 Cooper STT PRO tires.  Marlin rear bumper & sliders.  FROR front bumper.  SAS with Alcan springs & Rancho 9000XL shocks.  Budbuilt Bolt-on traction bar.  Custom Interior Cage by Those Guys Rod and Customs.

Moab Tested & Rubicon Approved

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1678 on: Aug 12, 2018, 05:43:18 PM »
Update August 12, 2018

My neighbor had to change a battery on his 1997 Chrysler 300.  OMG!!!  Had to remove air filter intake tube, air filter box, just to get to the battery, then remove a plastic splash guard in the fender well.  Now I know why I have never owned a Chrysler product!!  He is not mechanically inclined, a great neighbor, and doesn’t have many tools, so I help him.  That pretty much used up most of my project time to do a compression and leak down test today.  It was only 103d F and 50% RH… I was dripping in the hot sun.

My Sun compression tester failed after about 19 years, so I had to go buy a new one.  Two of the compression numbers have gone south since I tested last.

Dry Compression Test

#1 – 87
#2 – 148
#3 – 140
#4 – 129

That out of balance amount is probably why it has a slight rough idle, and won’t cold start like it should.

I have attached the photos of the spark plugs.  I don’t see much carbon, as I might expect considering it is burning 1 quart of oil about every 600 miles.

I hope to do the wet compression test and the leak down test tomorrow.

I’ve replaced the Cold Start Injector Thermo Time Switch and the Throttle Position Sensor.

I discovered there are 3 things I needed to adjust to get it to cold start better.  It still won’t fast idle.
1 - The idle screw on the throttle linkage that hits the throttle damper, 2 - the idle screw on the throttle body, and 3 - the TPS.  Even though the TPS was adjusted per spec, I had to adjust it to full lock clockwise to make it happier.
The plugs are 1 thru 4 left to right.
Gnarls.
« Last Edit: Aug 12, 2018, 07:49:04 PM by Gnarly4X »
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

Gnarly4X [OP]

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Re: Gnarly4X's 22RE Rebuild
« Reply #1679 on: Aug 14, 2018, 08:03:21 AM »
UPPDATE AUGUST 14 2018

I did a cold engine wet compression test on number 1 cylinder.  It only went to 91 PSI from 87 warm dry test, but could be enough change to indicate bad rings. 

I only did a leak down on the number 1 cylinder.

At 80 PSI pressure, there was air leaking at a rate of 15 PSI.

I could hear air in the exhaust pipe, the throttle body, and the rocker cover with the oil cap off.  I did not see any bubbles in the radiator filler.

So, based upon the wet compression test, the sounds during the leak down, my guess is the rings are not sealing in number 1.  I suspect there may be some leakage in the valves.

With the premature tightening of the valve lash on the exhaust valves, and exhaust leaking during the leak down, there appears to be a problem with the exhaust valve sealing, and could be the valve seat.

If valve stem seals were worn or defective, there should be some smoke at start up.  If the rings were really bad there should be blow-by and smoke during acceleration -  no smoke.

Number 2 cylinder at 148 is just above the FSM minimum.  Number 3 is a just below the minimum.  Number 4 has a problem at 129 lbs.

I am puzzled by the lack of carbon burn on the spark plugs.

I will do the rest of the cylinders on Saturday.

Regarding the cold start up....  I finally got it start up within a 1 or 2 seconds of turning the starter.  It wants to die immediately after firing as though too low an idle speed, and still will not fast idle.  After about 1 minute at a fast idle by gas pedal, it will idle at about 850 RPM.

As with Mudder’s experience with a cold start issue, even though his and mine ohm tested within spec, the new Start Injector Time Switch did make a difference.  At $162, I resisted buying the darn thing.

Gnarls.
1986 XtraCab SR5 22RE 5speed W56B, ~15,000 MI after break-in, DIM (Did It Myself) rebuilt engine - .020" over, engnbldr RV head, OS valves, 261C cam, DT Header. https://imgur.com/oACTHTR

 
 
 
 
 

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