Topic: Thinking about getting bigger cam??

[Tibbets34]

Got a 82 toyota with a 22r and I daily drive it, but iam thinking about getting a differnt cam. Was reeding up and some people say if your gonna daily drive it to just keep the stock on in, it's got a weber and a lce header on, just want alittle more get up and go?? What are you guys running?? Thanks

[Snowtoy]

What size tires are you running w/the 4.88's?  If bigger than 33's, 5.29's will give your more performance than a new cam.

What size exhaust and muffler are you running, still have the cat?

[blackdiamond]

Ill still never cut a bed.

I have some type of mid range cam and I think I prefer the higher OEM power band. I've never had the OEM cam in my 4Runner so hard to compare though.

[Tibbets34 [OP]]

Iam running 33's, 2 1/4 to glass pack then to muffler then 2 1/4 out

[1985CRAWLER]

I have some type of mid range cam and I think I prefer the higher OEM power band. I've never had the OEM cam in my 4Runner so hard to compare though.

I would say the same thing , I have an engbldr 261 duration "crawler" cam as its called and to be honest I've been contemplating tossing a stock cam back it in , I have big valves and port work to my 22re head and it gave me more power but combined with that cam my truck will kinda fall on its face in the high rpm range , I remember with the stock cam it had more top end which is what these motors need as they are just pure torque on the low end

[1985CRAWLER]

Iam running 33's, 2 1/4 to glass pack then to muffler then 2 1/4 out

Maybe consider getting a long tube header on it , will give you that tad more get up you are after

[kneedownnate]

He did say he had an lce header, which has some very long tubes, longer than any other header I've seen.  If you get a cam big enough to see top end gains, you'll likely lose your low end grunt.  That said, I have an old mikuni cam, no idea the profile - nwor tri-y and 2 1/2 exhuast and craptastic weber carb, and it pulls to a pretty high rpm.  No other head work or anything. 

I changed too many things at once to say what gains or losses I've had, but stock cam, pacesetter header/glasspack, weber and my original hybrid setup (that block seemed very strong) had more power from low idle to 5500 rpm than any other toyota I've ever been in, and was very happy getting there.  I've blamed my current exhaust system and block for my lack of power now

[Snowtoy]

Iam running 33's, 2 1/4 to glass pack then to muffler then 2 1/4 out

With gears and tires matched, I am thinking your performance issue could be the exhaust system.  With long tube header and an open exhaust(hi-flow), you have a system designed to perform best in the mid-hi rpm range, not the low-mid range where most daily driving occurs, a situation made worse by a heavy truck and an engine designed for dependability and not performance.


What is the current condition of the engine? 
Where are you looking for more performance?

[:)bestgen4runner]

I have experienced many of the aftermarket cam shafts available,
EB 261crawler, 268 torquer, couple of LCE cams and several engines with stock can.
Best performance cam period is the LCE power pro cam great power all over with only slight rough idle.

As for the headers any of the tri y design are the way to go.
I have had pace setter, nw offroad, LCE long tube, and Doug thorly. Tri y is perfect all around while the long tube is for high rpm.

Bottom line this engine does not make any real power period.
When in 4low it's great on the freeway you are quickly reminded that you have maybe 100 hp
With every goody short of forced induction you got maybe 120

If you love your truck and want power think and plan for future motor swap it's the real solution.
The 22re is a legend and always will be but no one will ever say it had any power just that it will take a hell of a beating and just keep on running.   

[redneckcustoms13]

What he said.
I have the lce power pro in my 80 model truck. The idle sounds cute like a baby small block. the torque is nice and smooth through basically the full range of rpm. I like it. I'd certainly run it again.

[blackdiamond]

I have experienced many of the aftermarket cam shafts available,
EB 261crawler, 268 torquer, couple of LCE cams and several engines with stock can.
Best performance cam period is the LCE power pro cam great power all over with only slight rough idle.

As for the headers any of the tri y design are the way to go.
I have had pace setter, nw offroad, LCE long tube, and Doug thorly. Tri y is perfect all around while the long tube is for high rpm.

Bottom line this engine does not make any real power period.
When in 4low it's great on the freeway you are quickly reminded that you have maybe 100 hp
With every goody short of forced induction you got maybe 120

If you love your truck and want power think and plan for future motor swap it's the real solution.
The 22re is a legend and always will be but no one will ever say it had any power just that it will take a hell of a beating and just keep on running.   

I thought longer headers were better for lower rpm. Not saying you're wrong, just remembering back to my Camaro days.

The most important point is that trying to get power out of a 22RE is pretty pointless. They are what they are. Adequate...

[:)bestgen4runner]

https://www.sandersonheaders.com/lets-get-technical.html

Everything anybody ever wanted to know about headers. These guys are great. But sadly no Toyota headers.
Knowledge only.

[H8PVMNT]

Hey which LC cam are you guys talking about.  EFI Pro, Street Performer, Pro- Torquer?

There are so many.  Post up a link!

[mudmaster]

4.3 V6! A 22RE will never make REAL power.

[H8PVMNT]

Just got off the phone with 22re Performance.  I am starting to really like those guys.  The jist of the conversation was that he wouldn't bother with anything other than the stock cam unless planned to man up and get a bigger carb, more exhaust, head work.  The OP might benefit since he is running a bit of extra stuff.  I think I'll build a hot one someday but I'm going to stay stock on my 22r this go around.

He did think the adjustable timing gear was a fun device though.  I have played around with an LC timing gear on a 22re and you really can tune where your power is with them.  22re Performance and LC both make one for the dual chain too and can make them work with a mechanical fuel pump. I'm thinking of trying one on the 4Runner just for tuning fun.

As we mill heads and deck blocks we accidently retard cam timing?  This dials toward top end? Is that correct or is it the other way around?

[Plainview]

...

As we mill heads and deck blocks we accidently retard cam timing?  This dials toward top end? Is that correct or is it the other way around?

yes, and no.  taking material off the head and deck effectively makes the chain longer which has the effect of retarding valve timing. That's the yes part.  This *can* skew the power to a higher RPM range, or it can just kill off power altogether depending on the engine and cam's characteristics. It might even do both - shift peak power to a higher RPM but make less power overall.  If you're milling a lot off heads & blocks an adjustable cam gear sure makes sense.

Cams are a really interesting subject and the effect that valve timing has on an engine is something I've read a lot about.  There are some generalities that can be stated, though they're not always true - longer duration makes more top end power at the expense of lower end power - advancing the intake lobe centerline will tend to move power down in the RPM range and vice-versa - moving the intake and exhaust lobe centers closer together (a narrower lobe separation angle) will tend to produce more peak power but in a narrower RPM range and vice-versa.

The factory used fairly short duration lobes on wide lobe centers to produce a broad, flat powerband with smooth idle and good emission characteristics.  Many aftermarket cams move the lobe centers closer together to get more peak power in the lower and midrange RPMs which makes the engine feel more "punchy" but it might not pull to as high of an RPM as it used to.  Significantly increasing duration beyond stock without also improving exhaust and intake flow is counterproductive.  A longer duration cam needs more airflow through the engine to work effectively.

[Prismo]

I will relate my experience with the 261 cam, it will pull and gain rpm in lower rpms where the stock cam will not. That said you sacrifice power at higher rpm as a result.

[blackdiamond]

I will relate my experience with the 261 cam, it will pull and gain rpm in lower rpms where the stock cam will not. That said you sacrifice power at higher rpm as a result.

Sounds like what mine does whatever it is. I only know it as a midrange cam. I think more power at the top end would be more beneficial on the highway, but I have never been afraid to run at higher RPM.

[H8PVMNT]

The cam I am running what I believe is a 22r/22re profile "stock" replacement.  According to what I have found the early stock carb cam profile is a little different, longer duration and more lift on the intake side, but the later style is about all you can get anyway.  Some data contradicts all this.  My old, crusty Haynes manual makes the early and late carb cams look different when measuring intake lobe height, so I think there is something to it.

Of course driving impressions are going to be an aggregate of many factors so take this with a grain of salt...

The "stock" cam I am running feels like this:  It has fairly smooth idle, very slight lope on warm up.  Sounds like EFI minus the injectors after warm and likes to idle from 750 to 1,200 depending on how you have it tuned.  The stock cam/stock carb setup likes smaller exhaust.  I picked up drivability and gas mileage by going from 2 1/4" free flowing to 1 3/4" and a stock style muffler.  Whole thing seemed to pull more vac and higher rpms were available with the smaller pipe.

Ridiculous good bottom end right off idle.  You can pretty much let the clutch out in 1st high without killing it. Very happy with this as a crawling cam.  It has a very smooth transition of power off idle when you are crawling around over big stuff.  Smooth pull over 2 foot rocks.  Makes you look like a good driver .

On highway and around town:  Pretty good part throttle pull from low rpm up to about 3,200, then it kind of feels tight but will pull to about 4,200 readily.  Then you can get up to 4,800-5,000 rpm in a lower gear easing off the throttle.  I will admit it feels kind of whispy after about 4,200. The higher rpm tightness and whispy is why I think I could benefit from the adjustable cam gear.  It doesn't seem quite right somehow up there.  The head and deck were milled the typical amount.

Likes to be on the highway at about 3,400 rpm and the truck seems to be most efficient at that rpm.  Somethimes 4th gets you better fuel economy. Pulls most passes at 45-55 mph in 3rd.  Sometimes better depending on elevation.  I have noticably more power below 2,500 ft.

Towing is pretty good.  The truck almost seems to like a light load.  Head winds absolutely kick my butt though.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi Tibbets34,

It's been about 9 days since the last post.  Are you still considering a different camshaft?

Gnarls.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi H,

This is why I'm wondering if the 261C is the best cam for my engine rebuild.  My target is more torque in the RPM range I use mostly.

[Gnarly4X]

The cam I am running what I believe is a 22r/22re profile "stock" replacement.  ...

Of course driving impressions are going to be an aggregate of many factors so take this with a grain of salt...

H8PVMNT,

I re-read your excellent analysis/impression of the 22 stock cam.  Your impression parallels my experience and most comments by others.

It takes some time for me to produce this information in an Excel sheet, but I thought you might be interested.

This is a comparison between a stock 22RE and a 22RE with engbldr 261C Cam, engbldr oversize valves, and a Doug Thorley header with 2.25" exhaust and free flow muffler-cat.

I have attached an Excel sheet (have to download to view) with a mock pull on my dyno software.  You can see by the numbers how good the factory stock cam really is for all-around throttle response.  The factory torque-HP numbers at RPM are almost spot on. 

From off idle to 2800 RPM the stock cam has much better torque numbers.

Again, my target goal is increased torque between 2800 and 3400 RPM, that's where I want it for freeway cruising speeds, running 31" tires and stock 4:10 ring & pinion, 5th gear.

For wheeling and crawling, the stock cam, on paper, has excellent torque numbers, in my humble opinion.

The 261C cam is showing a 10 lbs increase in torque at my target 3400 RPM, that should be very noticeable by my butt dyno.  You can also see where the HP numbers meet in the RPM range.

To me this is a perfect example of how a cam profile can effect the torque-HP numbers at specific RPM.  If you want more poop at the higher RPM range, you will typically trade-off some torque at the lower RPM range.

Any comments?

Gnarls.

[Snowtoy]

Again, my target goal is increased torque between 2800 and 3400 RPM, that's where I want it for freeway cruising speeds, running 31" tires and stock 4:10 ring & pinion, 5th gear.

Any comments?

Gnarls.

4.56 gears should have better results/seat of the pants performance gain for your goal than the cam would, your about 11% under geared with the 4.10's and 31's.  The 4.56 gear set should put you at just over 2900rpm's at 65mph/5th gear, vs. the just over 2600 you have now, and 4th gear would put you at the 3400rpm range.

[Gnarly4X]

4.56 gears should have better results/seat of the pants performance gain for your goal than the cam would, your about 11% under geared with the 4.10's and 31's.  The 4.56 gear set should put you at just over 2900rpm's at 65mph/5th gear, vs. the just over 2600 you have now, and 4th gear would put you at the 3400rpm range.

Hi Snowtoy,

This is how I think about it, but I’m always open to any input…..

Yes, ring & pinion gearing can make a big change in moving the RPM to get the peak torque.

With 31” tires, 4.10 R&P, 80 MPH, 5th gear = about 3022 RPMs

With 4.88’s in 5th gear = about 3597.  4.88’s would put the RPM a little over my target RPM of 3400.

Yes.. according to the torque and HP numbers in my spreadsheet, 4.56’s, with the 261C, would put me right in the sweet spot for peak torque at the RPM range I want the increase in power, 80 MPH, 5th gear = 3361 RPM

Since the stock cam produces peak torque at 2800 RPM, I should be close to a sweet spot.  BUT…. the issue is the peak 149 lbs of torque is not enough.

The 261C cam is showing about 4 more lbs of peak torque starting at 3100 thru 3300, and 10 more lbs of torque at 3400 RPM.

The camshaft is about $112 and I get more power.  I believe I can R&R a camshaft in about 2 hours (I’m slow).  If I did a ring & pinion swap myself it would take me at least 8 hours, and I would defer to someone who has lots of experience setting up the specs on these diffs.  If I change ring & pinions it’s about $500 to $600, keeping my stock cam, I only move my peak torque from 2844 RPM to 3168 RPM. It's better, but its a much higher cost for no increase in power.

Gnarls.

[79coyotefrg]

I see this two or three times a year from newbies and many of you say the same thing over and over.  "you dont need a cam"  "bigger cams arent worth the money"  blah blah blah

here's a link to my truck rolling up the interstate off ramp from a dead stop. 4500 pound truck.   35 inch PitBull Rocker Radials I weighed them when they were mounted on my eagle alloy 15x10 wheels., the combo weighed 106 pounds each, 5.29's, LC header, Marlin 1200 clutch, 32/36 weber and LCE's Stage 2 racing cam.  thats 290* duration and .460 lift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck

[Gnarly4X]

I see this two or three times a year from newbies and many of you say the same thing over and over.  "you dont need a cam"  "bigger cams arent worth the money"  blah blah blah ...

79coyotefrg,

That video clip definitely sounds like great throttle response!

As you know many of us have different experiences.  There are so many variables to each owner's modifications, knowledge, vehicle maintenance, and awareness.  I remember driving a well-known Toyota engine builder's stroked 22R 4x4 pickup and the throttle response was noticeably WEAKER than my DT header equipped stock 22R!

Back in 1986 when I had a Doug Thorley header installed on my '86 long bed automatic, it was only about $200.  For bolt-on power, the price per increase in torque was a good bang for the buck.

Now, the headers are around $500, so the bang is not quite as good.  Back in the 90's, after adding a DT header to my 1985 22R shortbed, I discovered some aftermarket camshafts and started looking for "bolt-in" extra torque.  I think a $100 to $200 camshaft swap is a good bang for the buck.

Here's my peeve about camshafts..... as much as I researched and investigated almost all the available camshafts (100's of hours) for the 22s, I could not find ANY manufacturer or supplier that would show me a certified dyno test on the camshafts they advertised, and I spoke to more than a couple.  Rarely, I was able to find some posted dyno tests by guys who wanted to share their info.

In 2001 just before I totaled my 1985 22R, 5 speed, shortbed (Marlin Crawler T-case equipped), I was just about to start testing several cam profiles and chassis dyno my truck to see for myself what the change was. 

Now, I'm rebuilding my engine (and I'm really glad I decided to do it myself!), I'm back to looking for that extra torque.

One thing I noticed between my 22R carb'd engine and my 22RE fuel-injected is that the 22R (no ECU) was way more sensitive to changes... like the header and exhaust, elevation, even ambient air temp and relative humidity.  My guess is that the ECU in my 22RE "compensated" with it's sensor feedback and so the effects and changes were more balanced... less noticeable to me.

Yeah... the old bump stick does make a little bump!

That's just my worthless opinion.

Gnarls.

[H8PVMNT]

I see this two or three times a year from newbies and many of you say the same thing over and over.  "you dont need a cam"  "bigger cams arent worth the money"  blah blah blah

here's a link to my truck rolling up the interstate off ramp from a dead stop. 4500 pound truck.   35 inch PitBull Rocker Radials I weighed them when they were mounted on my eagle alloy 15x10 wheels., the combo weighed 106 pounds each, 5.29's, LC header, Marlin 1200 clutch, 32/36 weber and LCE's Stage 2 racing cam.  thats 290* duration and .460 lift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VX1AFhpOck

 I love watching that video!

I am pretty happy with my stock 22r and it is doing just what I expected and a good fit for what we use the truck for, but I really want to build one of the balls out hybrids in the next few years, complete with Glen's cam and the works.  I think I want one in my pickup though.  The 4runner is right where I want and steady and smooth, the pickup is lighter and more of my rat rod. If I am going to make on strung out it's definitely going to be the 1980 pickup.  There is something fun about the idea of having a hot, quick, rusty 1st gen.

I am having more fun with carb than I ever did with EFI.  Gnarls you are right that you can really notice small changes in tuning.

Very curious to see how you like the 261C.

[79coyotefrg]

I love watching that video!

I am pretty happy with my stock 22r and it is doing just what I expected and a good fit for what we use the truck for, but I really want to build one of the balls out hybrids in the next few years, complete with Glen's cam and the works.  I think I want one in my pickup though.  The 4runner is right where I want and steady and smooth, the pickup is lighter and more of my rat rod. If I am going to make on strung out it's definitely going to be the 1980 pickup.  There is something fun about the idea of having a hot, quick, rusty 1st gen.

I am having more fun with carb than I ever did with EFI.  Gnarls you are right that you can really notice small changes in tuning.

Very curious to see how you like the 261C.

let me know the specs, lift, duration, lobe center lines and stuff.

[Snowtoy]

Hi Snowtoy,

This is how I think about it, but I’m always open to any input…..

Yes, ring & pinion gearing can make a big change in moving the RPM to get the peak torque.

With 31” tires, 4.10 R&P, 80 MPH, 5th gear = about 3022 RPMs

With 4.88’s in 5th gear = about 3597.  4.88’s would put the RPM a little over my target RPM of 3400.

Yes.. according to the torque and HP numbers in my spreadsheet, 4.56’s, with the 261C, would put me right in the sweet spot for peak torque at the RPM range I want the increase in power, 80 MPH, 5th gear = 3361 RPM

Since the stock cam produces peak torque at 2800 RPM, I should be close to a sweet spot.  BUT…. the issue is the peak 149 lbs of torque is not enough.

The 261C cam is showing about 4 more lbs of peak torque starting at 3100 thru 3300, and 10 more lbs of torque at 3400 RPM.

If you are using the stated sidewall tire size, your figures are going to be off, most tires are 2" shorter when mounted than their stated size.
Difference in rpm's between 31" stated and their 29" mounted height.

The camshaft is about $112 and I get more power.  I believe I can R&R a camshaft in about 2 hours (I’m slow).  If I did a ring & pinion swap myself it would take me at least 8 hours, and I would defer to someone who has lots of experience setting up the specs on these diffs.  If I change ring & pinions it’s about $500 to $600, keeping my stock cam, I only move my peak torque from 2844 RPM to 3168 RPM. It's better, but its a much higher cost for no increase in power.

Gnarls.

I understand wanting to keep costs low, with that in mind you should consider doing the cam swap now before you run your freshly rebuilt engine through a heat cycle, otherwise you should factor in the cost of a new head gasket kit and having the head checked/resurfaced when you decide to swap the cam.  I know some get lucky and don't have an issue with the HG after a cam swap, but I would rather do a little extra work at the swap, then have to go through a BHG repair.

You could swap the rear 3rd and front IFS in a few hours as well, and possibly do it for free if you found a 4-Runner or Truck that came w/factory 4.56 gear sets, 2nd gen Runners can usually be found in my area for $500-1k. After the swap, you could either part out the donor, or sell it on for what you paid for it.  Or keep an eye out on here, other 4x4 forums for someone selling the 3rds.

While the gear swap won't produce any actual hp/torque gains or move the peak torque, it is the best seat-of-the-pants upgrade you can do, and is the only way to reap the full benefits from any of the engine upgrades.

[Gnarly4X]

Hi Snowtoy,

LOL…. Your posts read like a person possibly with H.A.S. (Hyper Analytical Syndrome)… I have it. 

 It’s not necessarily a bad thing and seems to be found more often in people with extra brain cells and higher I.Qs. 

I did not know about tire sizes not being actual? 

I’m sure you’ve watched a funny car burn out.  You noticed the tire diameter expanding radically.  That’s what happens, to a lesser degree, to tires running down the freeway at 75 MPH.  Right now my 31” BFGs measure 30” diameter, but they have been sitting for 3 ½ years, and may be a little low on air pressure? I’d make a good guess that if I could measure my tire diameter at 75 MPH that they would be more that 31” in diameter?

At 80 MPH my 31s are running down the freeway at about 15 revolutions per second, and in this Arizona 100+ air temp, plus the pavement will get 170+ degree F, I would think that BFG rubber is expanding.

Your idea to “buy-low-swap-sell-salvage” is not a bad idea, but at my age my clock is speeding up and I’m much more lazy and slower than I was at age 42 - which was my peak!

With both my 22R/RE pickups, I never changed the ring & pinion, just ran the stock 4.10s.  I ran 33s on my 85 22R and that did cause a gear ratio issue.  1st gear starts were sluggish and 5th gear was sometimes not useable, and had to use 4th.  But, I got used to it. Since I had lockers front and rear and Marlin Crawler, doing a R&P swap would have been the hot ticket, looking back I’m not sure why I did not.

As I mentioned, yes, a R&P change to lower gearing will be noticeable on your butt dyno, and can move the peak torque to a more useable RPM, BUT…. it still doesn’t increase any power.

On doing an R&R on camshaft, I have only done that while doing a head job.  We have read about guys that have done it without any issues with the head gasket.

It would interesting if the guys that have done cam swaps without moving the head, could comment on that, as I would like to do some cam swaps and dyno tests in the future with my truck.

R&Ring a head on 22RE is WAAAYYY more time consuming compared to just removing the rocker cover, removing the cam sprocket, un-torquing the head bolts, lifting the rocker rack, removing the 3 cam bearing caps, lifting off the camshaft, and then re-assembling.  I could be wrong about that, but that’s how I envision it.

Gnarls.